Flair Region, Memphis Subregion, First Round: (4) Chris Jericho vs. (29) Buddy Rogers

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the Flair Region, Memphis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the FexEx Forum in Memphis, Tennessee.

#4. Chris Jericho

Vs.

#29. Buddy Rogers

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Sai the Uganda Guy]

I'm a Jericoholic, but Buddy Rogers takes this one. Rogers was the biggest star in the beginning of the television era, the first WWWF Champion (let alone all his other many championship reigns) and the inspiration to many, particularly Ric Flair.
Chris Jericho has accomplished a lot in his career as well, but to put him above Rogers is quite silly.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

This is another match that has ERA problems all over it. I don't want to pick one here because of that very problem.

 

[Bernkastel]

Buddy Rogers has two strikes against him. One is that he was never the kind of touring champion that many of the other NWA champions were, meaning that he mostly drew large gates in some of the NWA controlled areas [mainly the Northeast] instead of everywhere like Thesz, Whipper Watson, or O'Conner did. The other was the Rogers was a bit of a dick and that could make him hard to work with. I know that he pissed off Lou Thesz to the point where he refused to let Rogers get the best of him, ever. He was also assaulted in a locker room by Karl Gotch and Dr. Big Bill Miller, who thought of the guy as an absolute prick. But that aside Rogers was very popular among fans for a long time, and played both the heel and face roles masterfully. He remained as a consistent main eventer for much of his career.

His career does have many parallels with Jericho's. Both were champions during financial high times for the industry, both defeated pretty much every big name in the sport, and both remained reasonably popular for long periods of time. Rogers was obviously a far better drawing card than Jericho ever was, so he gets points for that. Also Rogers had consistently better booking than Jericho has had at times. He wasn't used to put over the Fandango's of the time period, nor was he used to establish new, but popular stars like Jericho is doing with AJ Styles. Rogers was always at the top of the card. It meant something when he won and it meant something even more when he lost. When Jericho wins or loses, half the time fans go... "eh." Even 15 years ago aside from that one night of big fame that he had.

So I'm voting Rogers here. For his consistency at least. I feel that no promoter valuing money would job Buddy Rogers to Chris Jericho in the first round of a big tournament like this one.

 

[tdmoon]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a big fan of Jericho. He may be in my top five favorites of all-time. Rogers wins this, though.

As terrific a wrestler as Jericho is(was?), his main attribute may have been his charisma. He was incredible on the mic and had a great presence about him. He had some really big moments, and his WWF introduction was electric. Yet he still pales in comparison to the original "Nature Boy".

Rogers inspired the look and character of many wrestlers after him. For crissake, the guy who many think may be the most charismatic wrestler of all time, Ric Flair, ripped him off!

I do think that Jericho's undisputed World title win is one of wrestling's great achievements. You know what else was? Rogers winning the World title in what people were calling the match of the century, in front of a record crowd. Even when Jericho was champion, he always seemed to be overshadowed by Rock, Austin, HHH, etc. He wasn't booked to be the the number one guy. Rogers was. Jericho has a lot of spectacular moments, but he also loses a lot. Rogers rarely lost(other than Bruno.....), he was at the top of the card for a long time.

Jericho is among the best in-ring workers of his generation. Not only was Rogers a good worker, but he popularized the figure-four. That's a pretty big deal in wrestling history.

I could ramble on, but Lou Thesz said this:

“Rogers is remembered by fans and performers alike as one of the top all-time stars in the business, but it’s probably not common knowledge just how influential he was… he broke into the business somewhere around 1941 as a hero-type personality, with little more going for him than a good body and natural charisma in the ring – which is actually a pretty good beginning – and he was a hit almost from the start. He had that indefinable something fans responded to, and he was sharp enough to build upon what he had, paying attention to what got a reaction from the fans. What evolved over several years was the ‘Nature Boy,’ the prototype of the cocky, strutting, sneering, arrogant peroxide blond villain that is almost a tired wrestling cliché today. Rogers invented the character, and I believe he did it better than anyone.

“He was also one of the first guys to rely a lot on what we called ‘flying’ moves in the ring – body slams, dropkicks, piledrivers, ricochets off the ropes into his opponent, action moves that are commonplace today. All of those moves were in use before Rogers came along, but they were used sparingly; most of the wrestling prior to Rogers’ emergence was done on the mat. Rogers was the first to use flying moves in quantity, staying off the mat, and the style was so popular with the fans that other wrestlers, including me, followed his lead."

Who am I to argue with Lou Thesz?

They both talk a lot of shit about each other, Jericho jumps his ass but Rogers wears him down and makes him tap to the figure-four.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I had Jericho about ten spots lower on my list than than what other people had him. I feel he is overseeded in the tournament. That said, I am likely going to vote for him unless someone sways me big time for Rogers.

 

[NSL]

I'm not knocking Rogers, or his accomplishments, and I know he was a hell of a draw in his day.

But that doesn't change, that to me, Jericho is one of the most charismatic entertainers in the history of wrestling. Add in his top-notch abilities, and the willingness to do whatever is asked of him in a number of companies, and I say he takes this one.

And, not to sound like a dick, but I probably can't be swayed. Dude is in my top 2 all-time favorites for wrestling, and he's just incredible. I'd love to see him win one of these.

I had Jericho about ten spots lower on my list than than what other people had him. I feel he is overseeded in the tournament. That said, I am likely going to vote for him unless someone sways me big time for Rogers.

Jericho was my #1, so...You know where I stand

 

[Prince Vee]

I'm a 90's kid so I don't know much about Buddy Rogers but considering the Accomplishments and feuds Chris Jericho had won, I would put my vote on Y2J! 6 time World Champion, First Eeeeever Undisputed Champion, Record 9 time IC Champion, had great feuds with Shawn Michaels, Rock and so on. In my verdict, he is the best in what he does, as he would mention. There's no one better than to put over a young talent in Professional Wrestling than Chris Jericho, considering Buddy Rogers isn't a young rookie who needs to be established, Jericho Wins

 

[Khalifa]

I know Rogers beat Thesz but I couldn't him imagine doing what Jericho did which was defeat The Rock and Stone Cold in the same night to become the first ever undisputed champion. That is quite an accomplishment, to defeat the two biggest stars of that era in the same night, with the title on the line in both fights. Jericho had a way of getting in people's heads. He has defeated many all time greats and is a multi time world champion. I should also mention that he also won another world title after coming up short in an unsanctioned match against Shawn Michaels, although the scramble match is nothing to be proud of.

I have all the respect for Buddy Rogers but I'm going to have to go Jericho here.

 

[Bernkastel]

I know Rogers beat Thesz but I couldn't him imagine doing what Jericho did which was defeat The Rock and Stone Cold in the same night to become the first ever undisputed champion. That is quite an accomplishment, to defeat the two biggest stars of that era in the same night, with the title on the line in both fights. Jericho had a way of getting in people's heads. He has defeated many all time greats and is a multi time world champion. I should also mention that he also won another world title after coming up short in an unsanctioned match against Shawn Michaels, although the scramble match is nothing to be proud of.

I have all the respect for Buddy Rogers but I'm going to have to go Jericho here.

Jericho may have defeated Rock and Austin on the same night to become the first ever undisputed champion, but his reign was hardly stellar. Jericho is more remembered for the way he won the belt than for the reign itself or for what he accomplished as a champion. And while Buddy is in the same boat when you consider that not every promoters needs were met when he was NWA champion, Buddy drew loads of money wherever he did wrestle, which is something that Chris never really did. So at least keep that in mind.

 

[NSL]

Jericho may have defeated Rock and Austin on the same night to become the first ever undisputed champion, but his reign was hardly stellar. Jericho is more remembered for the way he won the belt than for the reign itself or for what he accomplished as a champion. And while Buddy is in the same boat when you consider that not every promoters needs were met when he was NWA champion, Buddy drew loads of money wherever he did wrestle, which is something that Chris never really did. So at least keep that in mind.

But isn't this what really matters? How he won? Jericho, who was still an upper midcard guy, at best, beat two legitimate names in one night, to become the Undisputed champion. He's also had great matches in Japan, Canada, ECW, and WCW, so he's basically a chameleon who can adapt his style to work anywhere, with anyone.

I am in no way saying he'd just do some flippies and wow Rogers with an aerial display, but I definitely think he is smart enough and athletic enough to get the win here.

 

[Bernkastel]

But isn't this what really matters? How he won? Jericho, who was still an upper midcard guy, at best, beat two legitimate names in one night, to become the Undisputed champion. He's also had great matches in Japan, Canada, ECW, and WCW, so he's basically a chameleon who can adapt his style to work anywhere, with anyone.

I am in no way saying he'd just do some flippies and wow Rogers with an aerial display, but I definitely think he is smart enough and athletic enough to get the win here.

It depends. Some champions are remembered for winning titles while others are remembered for holding titles. For me personally I think the latter is way more impressive. I'll take a Bruno-esque super run or Cena holding the belt 15 times for thrice the combined days of his nearest competitor, and still upholding a consistent level of quality, to a Jericho or Bryan miracle win that serves to be the peak of their careers. It's definitely more of a flash in the pan in my opinion. There's no denying that Buddy had quality as a champion over Jericho's sheer quantity though. So that should mean something too.

 

[Khalifa]

It depends. Some champions are remembered for winning titles while others are remembered for holding titles. For me personally I think the latter is way more impressive. I'll take a Bruno-esque super run or Cena holding the belt 15 times for thrice the combined days of his nearest competitor, and still upholding a consistent level of quality, to a Jericho or Bryan miracle win that serves to be the peak of their careers. It's definitely more of a flash in the pan in my opinion. There's no denying that Buddy had quality as a champion over Jericho's sheer quantity though. So that should mean something too.

While I see what you are saying, this was completely different though. He merged the WCW belt and the WWE belt together. Now add in the fact he defeated Austin and Rocky for it, it's just like wow. I think this is completely different. A new belt that is the representive of the world titles from two (but one at that time) companies.

I would say you could argue for Daniel Bryan that his world title win doesn't mean all that much at WM30 if he was going up against Rogers, but it wasn't even thought about what Jericho did considering the reasons I gave before.

 

[NSL]

It depends. Some champions are remembered for winning titles while others are remembered for holding titles. For me personally I think the latter is way more impressive. I'll take a Bruno-esque super run or Cena holding the belt 15 times for thrice the combined days of his nearest competitor, and still upholding a consistent level of quality, to a Jericho or Bryan miracle win that serves to be the peak of their careers. It's definitely more of a flash in the pan in my opinion. There's no denying that Buddy had quality as a champion over Jericho's sheer quantity though. So that should mean something too.

I highlighted the parts that truly matter here. This is not a year long feud we are debating here. This is a one time match, each man at their absolute best. And Jericho not only won that match, but beat two all-time greats, won two titles, and cemented his legacy in around 31 minutes combined.

 

[Bernkastel]

I highlighted the parts that truly matter here. This is not a year long feud we are debating here. This is a one time match, each man at their absolute best. And Jericho not only won that match, but beat two all-time greats, won two titles, and cemented his legacy in around 31 minutes combined.

Yeah, and it was just one title win. It's not like he replicated that same feat the other 5 times he held a world title. And he went on to have a rather lackluster undisputed title reign, making the win seem a little bit dull. At least that was the way I saw it. You'd think defeating the top two guys in the company would make you unstoppable, but nope Jericho lost the belt just 3 months later, having served no purpose other than to be a vehicle for Triple H down the road.

 

[NSL]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the weight of the reign following the win.

My point stands, that in the main event, against top notch opponents, he found a way to come out on top, against guys that were far ahead of him at the time, and even now in some eyes. He overcame the odds, and shocked the hell out of everyone. What proof is there, that he wouldn't do it again here?

 

[Richard Blonoff]

After some thinking, I've decided on Jericho. Rogers was a great American star who drew good gates during his time, but Jericho won titles in America, Japan, and Mexico. His nine World Titles also trump Rogers two.

He also beat Kevin Nash in a hair vs hair match. If you can beat Super Shredder, you can beat anyone.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Buddy Rogers is one of these guys who people always say "oh yeah, he was great back in the day". Do they ever talk about him as being one of the absolute all time greats? Eh, not really.

Chris Jericho is one of these guys people always say "oh yeah, he's great, his body of work speaks for itself". Do they ever talk about how great a champion, or how big a draw or how much of a mover and shaker he was? Eh, not really.

And that's the problem with this match; its Jericho's quality versus Rogers prestige. Neither is in the discussion for all time biggest or greatest wrestler of all time, but they both happen to be regarded highly.

The heart of this debate has been touched on already: who do we remember more and for what reason. Personally I remember the grainy footage of Rogers getting crushed by Bruno in little over 30 seconds and that one photo they always trot out (y'know, the one they've chosen for this debate). I've seen the statistics and know the facts, but that's still all I can remember about Rogers off the top of my head: getting crushed by Bruno and the one photo.

In contrast I can wax lyrical about Jericho for awhile. Yes, he's overrated as all hell and yes, he's not a consistent main event talent. But dammit if there weren't at least a couple of periods where he really was the hottest damn thing on the planet. You don't just chuck two world title onto a guy - from your two biggest stars who happen to be two of the top seeds in this tournament - onto just anybody.

Jericho was the man in 2001. The same in 2008/2009 where he could do no wrong. Great match after great match after great match. Great angle after great angle after great angle. This guy made Roddy Piper and Jimmy Snuka look good in a match and angle in 2009 and still made a disinterested Mickey Rourke look good in front of 75,000 plus people in the deepest parts of Texas. He's that good.

 

[tdmoon]

I'm a 90's kid so I don't know much about Buddy Rogers but considering the Accomplishments and feuds Chris Jericho had won, I would put my vote on Y2J! 6 time World Champion, First Eeeeever Undisputed Champion, Record 9 time IC Champion, had great feuds with Shawn Michaels, Rock and so on. In my verdict, he is the best in what he does, as he would mention. There's no one better than to put over a young talent in Professional Wrestling than Chris Jericho, considering Buddy Rogers isn't a young rookie who needs to be established, Jericho Wins

I appreciate your admission that you don't know much about the wrestler you are arguing against, but that can be remedied quite easily. Please, take just ten or fifteen minutes of your time and educate yourself about the career of Buddy Rogers. Even if it doesn't change your opinion, you'll be glad you did; Rogers is one of the most influential wrestlers that has ever stepped foot in the ring and a true legend. Also keep in mind that one of your main points in favor of Jericho is that he is good at putting over younger wrestlers. Rogers wasn't there to put others over, he was there to be on the top of the card.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a big fan of Jericho. He may be in my top five favorites of all-time. Rogers wins this, though.

As terrific a wrestler as Jericho is(was?), his main attribute may have been his charisma. He was incredible on the mic and had a great presence about him. He had some really big moments, and his WWF introduction was electric. Yet he still pales in comparison to the original "Nature Boy".

Rogers inspired the look and character of many wrestlers after him. For crissake, the guy who many think may be the most charismatic wrestler of all time, Ric Flair, ripped him off!

I do think that Jericho's undisputed World title win is one of wrestling's great achievements. You know what else was? Rogers winning the World title in what people were calling the match of the century, in front of a record crowd. Even when Jericho was champion, he always seemed to be overshadowed by Rock, Austin, HHH, etc. He wasn't booked to be the the number one guy. Rogers was. Jericho has a lot of spectacular moments, but he also loses a lot. Rogers rarely lost(other than Bruno.....), he was at the top of the card for a long time.

Jericho is among the best in-ring workers of his generation. Not only was Rogers a good worker, but he popularized the figure-four. That's a pretty big deal in wrestling history.

I could ramble on, but Lou Thesz said this:

“Rogers is remembered by fans and performers alike as one of the top all-time stars in the business, but it’s probably not common knowledge just how influential he was… he broke into the business somewhere around 1941 as a hero-type personality, with little more going for him than a good body and natural charisma in the ring – which is actually a pretty good beginning – and he was a hit almost from the start. He had that indefinable something fans responded to, and he was sharp enough to build upon what he had, paying attention to what got a reaction from the fans. What evolved over several years was the ‘Nature Boy,’ the prototype of the cocky, strutting, sneering, arrogant peroxide blond villain that is almost a tired wrestling cliché today. Rogers invented the character, and I believe he did it better than anyone.

“He was also one of the first guys to rely a lot on what we called ‘flying’ moves in the ring – body slams, dropkicks, piledrivers, ricochets off the ropes into his opponent, action moves that are commonplace today. All of those moves were in use before Rogers came along, but they were used sparingly; most of the wrestling prior to Rogers’ emergence was done on the mat. Rogers was the first to use flying moves in quantity, staying off the mat, and the style was so popular with the fans that other wrestlers, including me, followed his lead."

Who am I to argue with Lou Thesz?

They both talk a lot of shit about each other, Jericho jumps his ass but Rogers wears him down and makes him tap to the figure-four.

This is really the perfect argument here, and one that everyone should be reading, especially those who know little to nothing about Rogers.

I'll say one other thing. Rogers rarely ever lost, and when he did, it meant something. Even at Jericho's peak, it was never considered to be a major accomplishment to beat him. Then later on, he got so into the habit of putting people over (credit to him), that he forgot that in order to really put someone over by losing to them, he first had to make sure that loss meant something... which stopped happening because he'd lose to everyone.

Forget everything else... there's no reason the guy that's happy to lose to everyone should be going over the guy that rarely lost to anyone.

 

[Bernkastel]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the weight of the reign following the win.

My point stands, that in the main event, against top notch opponents, he found a way to come out on top, against guys that were far ahead of him at the time, and even now in some eyes. He overcame the odds, and shocked the hell out of everyone. What proof is there, that he wouldn't do it again here?

Look at the booking for Wrestlemania that year. Both Rock and Austin ended up being tied up in other important matches, Rock vs Hogan and Austin vs Hall respectfully, one has to assume the if it weren't for that Jericho would not have become champion. Triple H didn't return until the Royal Rumble. And to thunderous applause. If he had returned a month or even 2 months earlier would Jericho still have become champion? Seems to me like WWE chose him to become champion because he was the only feasible option until someone better came along and could take his place. And that's what happened.

Rogers held onto the title for 2 years until Lou Thesz came along and dethroned him. The main controversy being that the WWE didn't like the decision because they didn't think that the aging Thesz was a better choice for gates in their region because they had a cash cow under Rogers, so they broke away from the NWA, setting us on the path to the present day. To me that loss was way more significant to history than Jericho simply being a vehicle to further the more poplar Triple H. When Rogers won the belt from Pat O' Conner the match broke records and drew 40,000 people. 3 times as many people saw Rogers defeat O'Conner than the amount of people that saw Jericho defeat both Rock and Austin in 2001. Rogers win was way more significant than Jericho simply being a convenient choice for champion at the time. Even if he did defeat the eras top 2 stars in the process.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I hate when people try to down play a huge accomplishment by a wrestler with the argument of, "well he was really the only option for said accomplishment because this guy was busy, that guy was gone, and the third guy was doing something else". Its a bullshit argument because, no matter the behind the scenes shenanigans that went on, the accomplishment still happened. So whether the Rock was heading into a feud with Hogan and Austin was busy with the nWo, Jericho still beat Austin and the Rock in the same night and became the first ever undisputed champion. That's huge!

Having said that, though, I'm still going with the original Nature Boy here. He was a huge draw during his era and highly successful and accomplished. He rarely ever lost and although most of that can be attributed to the era, it's still a fact. Jericho made a career out of losing big matches. He lost more than he won and this match would be no different.

Vote Rogers.

 

[Coco]

Buddy Rogers is one of these guys who people always say "oh yeah, he was great back in the day". Do they ever talk about him as being one of the absolute all time greats? Eh, not really.

If memory serves, VKM has touted Rogers as the only in-ring technician to ever come close to Bret Hart's level. I'll check my DVD collection later to verify. But that's quite the ringing endorsement.

Jericho was the man in 2001

Not really. That was Steve Austin's year. If not him, then Kurt Angle. And Chris Benoit packed a better quality year than Jericho into the six months he was actually active. Then you have to account for Van Dam coming in and completely overstepping Jericho as the company's top upper midcard babyface on the cusp of superstardom.

Jericho had a great 2001. But he was hardly "the man."

Anyway, Rogers was a guy who influenced much of the theatrics of some of the greats who followed him. Jericho was a good hand and solid supporting character for his entire run.

Rogers > Jericho. That's my vote.

 

[nightmare]

Has anyone else seen Rogers prepare a list of 1,004 moves? Does he even know that many? Jericho does.

The IWC handbook says more moves = better wrestler. Plus Buddy Rogers would shit himself trying to figure out how Jericho's jacket lit up without being plugged in to an outlet. He would be distracted by the dazzling lights & complexity of modern electronics, giving Jericho an opening for a quick pin.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

The thing with Jericho is this: Before returning in 2007, he wasn't all that great. Sure, he was the first ever Undisputed Champion and defeated Rock and Stone Cold in one night. But what did he do afterwards? I don't think Jericho was ready back then to gold the #1 prize in the wrestling bussiness. The company never really got 100% behind him either. They completely overlooked him in his feud with Triple H and after that he became a jobber to the stars for the next 3 years. If you remember, Jericho entered 2002 as the Undisputed Champion, but lost to the rookie John Cena some months later, on PPV. You have to wonder: Why did Chris Jericho went downhill from there?

It wasn't until 2008, that we saw how great Y2J really was. Actually 2008-2009 was the best Jericho years. But still he wasn't the man, not even the #1 heel.

On to Rogers, how come noone has mentioned that Y2J might be the first ever Undisputed Champ, but Rogers was the first ever WWWF Champ. He held the NWA belt for 500+ days before that and that was when he WWWF Championship was born out of the NWA Championship (according to wiki). Being a World Cham meant that you were the man.

I think the overall match is a tie. So what will dicide the result is the region. Since we're talking Ric Flair region, I think Rogers has the advantage in this match and I think that Rogers should win this match.