First Round: Seattle - Vader vs. Mil Mascaras

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round matchup in the Seattle Subregion. The ring and arena are universal throughout the first round and the organization is not a factor. There is a 20 minute time limit. Vote using any criteria you like. Most votes in the poll at the end of the time period wins. In the case of a tie we will go off of the number of written votes. In the case of a second tie, both are eliminated.

Location: Key Arena, Seattle Washington.

Vader

Vs.

Mil Mascaras

Voting is open for 4 days.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Mil Mascaras from what I understand is a popular luchador who had a great career and later went onto do movies and happens to be undefeated in Lucha de Apuesta. But he's facing Big...Van...Vader. Vader's quick for a guy his size and can toss most wrestlers around, and I don't believe Mascaras is any exception. Vader can beat him about particularly if he keeps him at arms reach and then put the finishing touch on him with a Vadersault. Becasue it's Vader Time!

 

[Tastycles]

Mil Mascaras from what I understand is a popular luchador who had a great career and later went onto do movies and happens to be undefeated in Lucha de Apuesta. But he's facing Big...Van...Vader. Vader's quick for a guy his size and can toss most wrestlers around, and I don't believe Mascaras is any exception. Vader can beat him about opaarticularly if he keeps him at arms reach and then put the finishing touch on him with a Vadersault. Becasue it's Vader Time!

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't vote.

For those who aren't going to blindly vote for Vader because you remember him being in the WWF in the 90s, let me tell you why you should vote for Mil Mascaras.

A brief overview of Mil Mascaras and his career can be found here.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showpost.php?p=1152301&postcount=3

This is what you need to know with specific reference to this match though:

Wrestlers of similar magnitudes

Mil Mascaras is at the heavier end of Mexican wrestlers, just like El Canek, a man who shares a lot of his career history. Canek beat Vader. But don't let that be the soul defeat we consider. Vader ran rampant in Japan, but the three men who had his number more than anyone else out there - Riki Choshu, Tatsumi Fujinami and Keiji Mutoh are all within one inch and ten pounds of Mascaras' size.

Mil Mascaras has history with super heavyweights, when he has faced them, he's won, without fail. Abdullah The Butcher, Moondog King, Dusty Rhodes, all fat *****, all of them have lost to Mil Mascaras. Indeed, Mascaras has never lost to anybody over 300lbs.

The Location

The sum total of Vader's big wins in the USA come from the lowest point in WCW's 90s history. Flair had gone, Sting couldn't hold the title forever, Vader showed up and got a run with the title. Flair came back, he lost it, and then he lost to everyone. He showed up in WWF, and lot to everyone there too for good measure, including defeats to luminaries like marvellous Marc Mero.

But Tastycles! you cry, Mascaras is a Mexican, he can't possibly have beaten anyone noteworthy in the USA! How about Harley Race when he was NWA Champion? How about Superstar Billy Graham when he was WWF Champion of the world in Madison Square Garden? Because he did both of those. Ken Patera, Intercontinental Champion, again in MSG. Former World Champion Stan Stasiak too, and oh yeah, Mick Foley. In short, Mil Mascaras beat everyone there was to beat in the USA whenever he was there. Vader beat Sting and then lost to Justin Bradshaw and Val Venis, amongst a lot of others.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

1. Mil Mascaras was a champion in Mexico. So was Vader. Vader beat Canek - the man Tastycles himself compares to Mascaras - for the UWA Championship. Vader held that title for more than a year, even holding that title simultaneously with the CWA World Championship.

2. Tasty's claims that Riki Choshu and Tatsumi Fujinami had Vader's number is dismissive and naive. Vader beat Choshu and Fujinami for IWGP titles too. Tasty makes it sound like Vader never beat them. In fact, if I remember correctly, Fujinami was ONE OF FOUR Japanese legends Vader beat on April 24th or 1989 to win his first IWGP Title.

3. Furthering his naive hypocricy is the fact that Vader defeated The British Bulldog, Ron Simmons, and Cactus Jack in WCW, as well as pushing Hulk Hogan to his limit and becoming the only man to kick out of the leg drop at a 1-count. In WWF, Vader beat a very upper mid-card Golddust, sent Yokozuna out to pasteur, and beat The Undertaker at Royal Rumble. He also had Shawn Michaels' number at Summer Slam 1996 and lost due to some bullshit. Vader didn't lose steam until the end of his WWF tenure.

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't vote.

Pot. Kettle.

VOTE VADER and be PROUD!

 

[Tastycles]

1. Mil Mascaras was a champion in Mexico. So was Vader. Vader beat Canek - the man Tastycles himself compares to Mascaras - for the UWA Championship. Vader held that title for more than a year, even holding that title simultaneously with the CWA World Championship.

And Canek beat him. Furthermore, this match is in Seattle, which isn't in Mexico. Mascaras has beaten world champions, when they were world champions in all three major regions. So has Vader, but he wrestled for a second rate championship in the USA.

2. Tasty's claims that Riki Choshu and Tatsumi Fujinami had Vader's number is dismissive and naive. Vader beat Choshu and Fujinami for IWGP titles too. Tasty makes it sound like Vader never beat them. In fact, if I remember correctly, Fujinami was ONE OF FOUR Japanese legends Vader beat on April 24th or 1989 to win his first IWGP Title.

Vader did beat them, but he lost to them more, which is what I meant, and what I implied.

3. Furthering his naive hypocricy is the fact that Vader defeated The British Bulldog,

Never a big deal in WCW, and he beat Vader as many times as Vader beat him.

Ron Simmons

Not Ron Simmons! Hardly in the same league as Harley Race is he?

and Cactus Jack in WCW,

So did Mil Mascaras.

as well as pushing Hulk Hogan to his limit and becoming the only man to kick out of the leg drop at a 1-count.

Still lost.

In WWF, Vader beat a very upper mid-card Golddust, sent Yokozuna out to pasteur, and beat The Undertaker at Royal Rumble.

He beat a fat cunt who was well on his way out, one upper midcarder, and he beat Taker once, then spent two years being beaten by him.

To say that these people are in the same calibre as Harley Race, Billy Graham and Dusty Rhodes is fucking bollocks. Look at Mascaras' defeats and you see the absolute creme de la creme of professional wrestling, and even most of them were shit like DQs. Look at Vader's defeats and you see Justin Bradshaw and 8-Ball.

He also had Shawn Michaels' number at Summer Slam 1996 and lost due to some bullshit. Vader didn't lose steam until the end of his WWF tenure.

Still lost though didn't he? This isn't the Almost Winning World Championship is it? It's a tournament to determine who would win a wrestling match. A guy who "didn't lost any steam" but who was still losing to The Patriot, and was beating luminaries like Rockabilly isn't likely to go over one of the most successful men ever on an international stage.

 

[PsychoBlack]

i know how legendary both of these men are and havent seen much of either so im going to wait this one out because i already like the arguments being made for each wrestler

 

[Straight Edge Loyalist]

Vader, mainly because I enjoyed his acting work on Boy Meets World.

 

[D-Man]

I don't give a crap if I get crucified for saying this, but I don't know a whole lot about Mascaras except from what I've read on these forums. I've seen a few of his matches and he was a great performer.

But every time I see IC post about Vader, he just always seems to convince me that Vader has the edge. Naturally, I'm extremely familiar with Vader's work and I know that the mastodon has taken pro-wrestling to new levels for super heavyweights. I honestly believe that Vader is capable of defeating any wrestler at any time on any given day.

Plus, if I don't vote for Vader, I fully expect death threats from IC25. Therefore, I'm voting Vader.

(And if someone gives me shit for placing my vote for Vader due to my lack of knowledge on Mascaras, don't waste your time with a rebuttle post. Just accept the fact that I didn't vote for Mascaras and move on with your lives... I sure will.)

 

[8thwotwATG]

I am very much well aware of Mascaras' in ring resume', but I am taking Vader here for a couple of reasons:
#1 I have absolutely ZERO use for Mil Mascaras. Walking around on your fucking tiptoes and sucking in your gut while doing that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
#2 Can Mascaras flit around enough to stay away from the ridiculous power and stiff as hell offense of Vader long enough to pull out the victory?
Actually, in Kayfabe terms if I were to book this, I'd probably have Mascaras dominate most of the match with his high flying techniques, and even get in a few of those famous "dropkisses", but then he'd attempt a crossbody off the top strand. Vader would then catch him in mid-air as opposed to being flattened by the crossbody,deliver a vicious vaderbomb, then moonsault off the top rope for the win. I just don't think enough of Mascaras to allow him to move on to the next round, plus I genuinely believe that Vader is superior.Vader is a superheavyweight that can do moonsaults for chrissakes! He's too big, too strong and too athletic for Mascaras' offense to have a lot of effect. Vader could realistically no sell everything that Mascaras does.

 

[GenMe]

Vader was just an amazing big wrestler, Vader was to awesome with tremendous moves in side the ring. And he was just to awesome to watch in every match that he was involve in.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Vader wins at everything. He's stronger. He uses big man psychology better then almost anyone. Hell, he even wins in a "Better Mask" contest!

Would YOU want to fuck with that man? I'd certainly take on a fruity Mexican in a wussy-ass CLOTH mask.

Vote Vader.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I've been able to watch some of Mil Mascaras' matches and he was impressive. Like a good many, I'm more familiar with Vader and Vader is among the most dominant superheavyweights I've ever seen.

I understand and appreciate how legendary Mil Mascaras is. Along with El Santo, he's about as close to godhood in Mexico as anyone can possibly be. However, I've seen the legend card played far too often in this tournament in order to justify voting for someone. This tournament is loaded with legendary wrestlers and far too many have used the "he's a legend" reason in my view. As D-Man said, I think Vader is someone that can probably defeat just about anyone on any given night. I can sit here and compare and contrast as to whom these men fought and defeated or almost defeated and all that. Both men have defeated some extraordinary opponents and I'm not going to waste time saying that this legend was a better wrestler than this one, or so-and-so was tougher than what's-his-name. I'm going with Vader on this one.

 

[Tastycles]

As D-Man said, I think Vader is someone that can probably defeat just about anyone on any given night.

I appreciate you aren't voting for legends "because they are" and that makes good sense. What I would say though is that Vader has never shown himself to be capable of beating a lot of wrestlers on regular occasions. We're talking about Sting, and Japanese people in Japan, which shouldn't have any bearing. I didn't make reference to anybody Mexican that Mascaras has beat, because it doesn't matter. Vader has never come close to beating anyone as good as Harley Race and Eddie Graham at their height in their own back yards and Mascaras has.

You don't need to analyse the arse off it. Mascaras beat Harley Race, Vader lost to Marvellous Marc Mero. It's that simple.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

You don't need to analyse the arse off it. Mascaras beat Harley Race, Vader lost to Marvellous Marc Mero. It's that simple.

The Mero and Bradshaw stuff was the at the tail end of Vader's mainstreak career. Do we hold Flairs loss to Ken Doane against him in the scope of his career?

Vader regularly beat Cactus Jack in his hardcore prime and Sting at a time when Sting was the heir apparent to the entire WCW. That's pretty f'ing impressive.

 

[Tastycles]

Vader regularly beat Cactus Jack in his hardcore prime and Sting at a time when Sting was the heir apparent to the entire WCW. That's pretty f'ing impressive.

Mascaras also beat Foley, as Cactus Jack, in WCW, but I don't need to bring it up because it isn't in his most important wins, because he beat much more impressive people. Sting beat Vader more than Vader beat him, and like I've said before, Sting coulldn't have held the title forever.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Mascaras also beat Foley, as Cactus Jack, in WCW, but I don't need to bring it up because it isn't in his most important wins, because he beat much more impressive people. Sting beat Vader more than Vader beat him, and like I've said before, Sting coulldn't have held the title forever.

Where do you get this from? Vader had a winning record vs Sting in title matches. If you factor in King of Cable, they were essentially .500 against one another during their feud. In the biggest spots, Vader won. SuperBrawl 3, for example, Vader beat Sting in the White Castle of Fear match.

Listen man, I really like Mascaras. I find him 2nd only to Canek, though you and I will never see eye to eye on that. But Vader was a World Champion in the US, Mexico, Japan, and Europe. He has wins over so many legends in so many big spots. His power and size would absolutely overtake Mascaras. Deep down I think you know that too, but you see this match as an opportunity to create more awareness for Mascaras. But at the end of the day, you know Vader would win.