Fingerpoke of Doom or Montreal Screwjob? Which has had a more lasting effect?

[avi01]

I too laughed a lot at the fingerpoke of doom. I understand the point about the fans present but the way I saw it, the writing was so bad that it was funny. It did had a lot of repercussion on the WCW, it is a very important event.
But screwjob is just a class above as far as impact in the business is concerned. First of all, it was not kayfabe which still makes it the most controversial moment in history of sports entertainment, I seriously can`t see anything ever top that. Then it lead to the emergence of the Mr Mcmahon character who feuded with Stone cold in a storyline that no doubt played a huuuge part in WWF winning the war. Montreal Screwjob is still so widely talked about. I think even most people involved in both these events would agree the screwjob had the most lasting effect. There is no question about that for me.

So Montreal Screwjob for me.

 

[m1k3b14z3]

ok ive lurked this forum for a long time and no came across a topic that made me make a account so i can post but to the situation at hand the FPOD was a storyline which means it was meant to have a certain amount of impact so they could bring back a nWo as one stable but if you ask me the nWo was the death of WCW but the MSJ as someone stated earlier wasnt storyline it was real life which just gives it more power on us the fans cause we know the truth you ask me they should of never taken the belt off Goldberg at that time he was 1 of 2 reasons why i watched WCW but the MSJ was real as i already stated but to answer the question to which has had a longer lastin effect in pro wrestling today its the MSJ just cause it was real and not storyline

 

[presto]

The Montreal Screwjob - hands down.

It showed the business side of wrestling mixed in with the traditional side of dropping the belt when going to a new territory. Bret didn't want to drop the belt in Canada even though his contract was set to expire after Survivor Series.

Bret disrespected the business. Vince saved the business both financially and also respectfully because he wanted to re-write the rules instead of allowing Bret Hart to re-write and dictate what he would do.

Plus, we saw the attitude era, the further rise of Shawn Michaels for doing 'his part' to where he became a top player and future WWE exec when he does retire, and the Monday Night War.

Foot, even at future Survivor Series PPV's; some matches ended when one wrestler ended up "screwjobbing" another wrestler in the storyline.

----

The fingerpoke of doom was not the bombshell of that show. The bombshell of that show occured 45 minutes earlier when Tony Schiavone stated:

"We understand that Mick Foley, who wrestled here one time as Cactus Jack, is going to win their world title" and sarcastically added "Ugh, that's gonna put some butts in the seats."

And I was one of those approximately 600,000 viewers who switched the channel to see Foley win while going back and forth using the previous channel button on my remote control to watch both shows at the end.

The fingerpoke didn't kill WCW, it was just added nails in a coffin because people really liked Foley and now became very interested to see a Foley title reign and therefore started to switch the ratings war.

WWE gave us the Foley reign and one half of the Monday Night War.

WCW gave us "creative control" gone wild, politics, David Arquette, and Vince Russo and many more episodes where the main event started at 10:55 PM and continued on after WCW had to "get off the air" and display their logo and go to some movie or some crime tv show rerun.

Looking back on it all now, WCW was so mis-managed and so ego driven that it would have self-destructed no matter if the Montreal Screwjob ever happened or not. I really think Vince could have survived (with some lean times) no matter what and then come forth with more vengeance.

 

[brucegough]

Regardless of what the WWE documentaries and ratings supposedly say, and what what one guy called some of you "marks" like to think happened, i don't believe that most WCW fans watching that Nitro when the fingerpoke of doom took place actually switched over to watch Mick Foley beat the Rock for the world title in an empty arena (it was literally an empty arena i believe). I believe a lot of fans that did switch over to RAW were actually WWE fans or casual fans who were getting tired of tuning in to both programs and would have rather watched Mick Foley than listen to smug Eric Bischoff gloat about his trickery and yet another NWO swerve. Trust me, real WCW/NWO fans were glued to their seat waiting to see what was going to happen. That broadcast had a pay per view feel to it, it was one of the most hyped up Nitros since the Hogan/Sting feud. Loyal WCW/NWO fans had been looking forward to that Nitro for weeks as it was hyped up two to three weeks in advance because Hogan was coming back from a two month retirement and people wanted to watch legends like Hogan, Nash, Hall, Steiner, Luger, and Goldberg rather than tune in to see the below par wrestling skills of Mick Foley and his sock, (his skills weren't much better than Hogan's). WCW/NWO fans did not just get bored and flip the station and miss the Fingerpoke of Doom to watch the competition. The WCW fans that did flip only flipped to watch the Mick Foley match briefly because they wanted to see if Eric Bischoff could actually be right in his claims (when he announced it on live tv). They did not flip because they would prefer to watch Mick Foley as opposed to the return of Hollywood Hogan. One in two wrestling fans at that point in time were huge Hogan fans and followed Hogan and watched him religiously, regardless of what company he was wrestling for. Mick Foley did not have that type of drawing power. Sorry. Hypothetically, saying that fans preferred Mankind winning the belt to a very hyped up Hogan vs Nash showdown is as crazy as saying that if Bret Hart were to come back to WWE one final time and make a speech on Raw, that fans would rather change the station to watch a one time Monday night TNA where Shark Boy wins the lightweight title. These fans, who were most likely laughing in fits when Foley beat the Rock as Bischoff had claimed, were back in time to watch the further gold that was the Fingerpoke of Doom. So let's not rewrite history here with WWE documentary influenced crap that doesn't make sense or add up. The Fingerpoke of Doom was hilarious, it was not bad for ratings, it didn't kill anything, most people did not just get sick of WCW the moment that Bischoff gave away the Foley match ending and most people did not want to watch Mick Foley beat the Rock...if anything, the Fingerpoke sparked a lot more sense into WCW storylines and sparked a brief renewal in interest in WCWs product..it was the injuries to the big time players within the NWO, the lack of storylines for the other non-NWO guys because of these injuries, and of course what was happening behind the scenes within Turner. These factors made it so WCW couldn't adequately compete with the much stronger WWE product. It wouldn't have made any sense for him, but if Ted Turner had of put every cent of his money into WCW the same way that McMahon had to to save the WWE, then we'd all be watching WCW programming right now.

 

[brucegough]

Bottom line is WCW is gone now because WWE was all Vince McMahon had and he put his heart and soul into saving it. Ted Turner just cut his losses, his heart and soul was in preserving the rest of Turner programming which was making him his millions. It was really just an inevitable situation.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Personally, I think that the Montreal Screwjob is something thats overrated. I know that statement is probably borderline sacrilage to some but it's how I feel. What might be even more surprising is that I primarily lay the blame with Bret Hart rather than Vince McMahon. In a nutshell, Vince told Hart to drop the title clean to HBK and Hart refused. In wrestling, sometimes the boss is going to want you to do something you don't want to do. We all have to do things in our jobs that we don't want to do sometimes, but we do them or else. In this case, Vince had no leverage over Bret Hart and was worried that Hart would show up on WCW Nitro with the WWF Championship. Hart said he wouldn't, so who knows. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can't be pissed at McMahon for covering his ass.

As for the Fingerpoke of Doom, well it's pretty much already been said. The Fingerpoke of Doom tremendously damaged the credibility of the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. It, along with David Arquette's win of the title, were the embodiment of Vince Russo's "championships are props" philosophy. I love wrestling, some of the earlierst memories I've got as a child are of watching it and I have to say that I think it was a slap in the face to every revered wrestling tradition. I didn't find it funny in the least, I did find it sad however. WCW was a company that's lineage was tied to some of the greatest wrestling of all time and the Fingerpoke of Doom was the beginning of an overall, inescapable decline of the quality of WCW programming. Overall, however, I still don't think it's as bad as David Arquette winning the title. As cheesy as some of the WWE celebrity guest host segments can be, the WWE will never stoop so low as to have a celeb win one of their titles, particularly not their world title.

 

[brucegough]

David Arquette winning the world championship was the most disgraceful thing in wrestling. Period. But do some of you actually think the Fingerpoke of Doom is anywhere near as bad as David Arquette winning the title?? Sure, laying down for another wrestler is disgraceful..but then again we all know wrestling is fake, right??..what about how Jeff Jarrett laid down for Hulk Hogan in 2000? Was that not worse than the fingerpoke of doom since it absolutely didn't have anything to do with a storyline and had nothing to do with trying to win back viewers.

And, as well, a lot of you seem to forget the fact that Vince McMahon actually won the world title at one point when WWE was thriving. It did NOTHING to devalue the WWE and viewers continued watching and not a negative thing was said about it. But Eric Bischoff never booked himself to win the world title. Maybe he should have, cause it worked for Vince and WWE. To me, Vince McMahon being anywhere near a wrestling ring, let alone being champion of the world, was in 1999 almost as disgraceful as a celebrity wimp like David Arquette being champion. Since when did Vince McMahon become such a good wrestler that he could win a world title among superior professionals and then a few year later take the greatest wrestler of all time, Hulk Hogan, to the limit in a Wrestlemania match. Or take on legends like Triple H and Shawn Michaels in a tag team match. It really doesn't make any sense, does it? It's disgraceful, if you think about it, so how come this disgraceful situation where a non-wrestler won the Heavyweight title didn't result in the demise of WWE??? Precisely my point. Vince McMahon uses WWE documentaries to persuade marks and hacks, who subsequently persuade future generations of wrestling fans who only know about this great period of time in wrestling through WWE-biased accounts, to believe that what McMahon's competition did was bad for business and what he himself did was good for business. Really though, if it draws positive publicity and ratings it's good, if it doesn't it's bad. People wanted to see Vince McMahon, people didn't want to see David Arquette. People wanted to see Hogan and Nash. Nobody wanted to see Jarrett and Hogan.

 

[mrchrisaschrader]

This is something I've wondered about recently. Both of these instances were controversial and were complete swerves to many fans. And both left lasting impressions on the respective promotions. I'll make my case for both and let you decide which has had the more lasting effect.

The Fingerpoke of Doom

​

I'll give some background on this since this is lesser known than the Montreal Screwjob. This was a change of the guard so to speak. Basically, the NWO had ran its course and were split up into the Wolfpac and Black and White. Nash led the Wolfpac and Hogan was the leader of Black and White. A tease was done to feud Nash with Hogan, which many fans salivated at because it meant the end of a burned out faction and the beginning of a legit power struggle backstage. Mind you, Nash is the World Heavyweight Champion after ending Goldberg's streak at Starrcade. This is in 1999...two years before WCW's demise. This took place on an episode of WCW Monday Nitro and many believe this to be the turning point in the Monday Night Wars. It was in front of a sold out Georgia Dome crowd of nearly 40,000 people. Many expected a rematch with Goldberg and Nash...what we got was an infamous part of wrestling lore. Goldberg was nowhere to be found due to an angle where he was arrested for stalking Miss Elizabeth. Was actually supposed to be rape, but Goldberg wanted NO part of that. So instead of getting Goldberg facing Nash in the Georgia Dome, we get a Hogan/Nash match due to Hogan's heat with Nash. Hogan was also 'retired' at this point for nearly two months. We get the match...and they circle the ring, with Hogan poking Nash in the chest, Nash going down to the mat, and Hogan pinning Nash for the WHC. In essence, this led to the downfall of Nitro with the show only cracking 5.0 twice the remaining time Nitro was on the air.

The Montreal Screwjob

​

I'm not going into much detail on what happened here because it's so widely known, it's nearly memorized by the majority of wrestling fans. A brief synopsis will do. This took place at WWF's Survivor Series in 1997. The background is Hart is WWE Champion, but is weighing the option of taking a huge contract with WCW. Hart is still contracted with the WWF and even signed a 20 year deal to stay with the Federation for the rest of his career. His match was against HBK Shawn Michaels. Both Hart and Michaels hate each other due to some legit heat caused by Michaels stirring shit about Hart's affair with Sunny (Tammy Sytch). Hart was adamant about not dropping the belt to HBK, but Vince wanted the belt off of Hart so there was no chance the Hitman would take the belt to WCW. The match happens, Hart thinks he wins the match, Vince, Pat Patterson, HBK and HHH know otherwise. The rest is in that picture above. Hart goes off on Vince and naked punches Vince in the dressing room, breaking his jaw and ankle in the process. True story. And in that, we get the birth of Mr. McMahon, the heel character, and the cockiness of HBK is brought to life in an even brighter picture.

So there you go. What has had the longer lasting effect? The Fingerpoke or the Screwjob?

One marked the slow but steady resurgance of a company with the Montreal Screw Job and other was just the escalation of the beginning of the end for the end for the other.

WWF(E) began to pick itself up with The "Mr. McMahon" character being created and starting a program with Stone Cold Steve Austin that lasted close to 18 months originally

The fingerpoke of doom was along with overuse of the NWO storyline the final nail in the coffin for WCW.

 

[Tastycles]

I actually think the significance of both of these events is hugely beefed up by hindsight. On the one hand you have the Vince McMahon turns heel myth of the Montreal Screwjob. While it certainly helped McMahon get over, the seeds of his feud with Austin had been planted two months earlier when Austin stunned Vince and was arrested after he attacked Owen Hart on Raw in MSG. Then, little happened with Vince until after WrestleMania XIV. As I said, this certainly helped Vince become a heel, but it was by no means the turning point.

The fingerpoke of doom was a ridiculous story obviously, but again, its effect is exaggerated. People think that this was the point where the ratings trouncing switched sides, but it isn't. Raw had dominated the ratings for most of 1998, and what's more, while it is true to say Nitro only drew 5.0 or more three times after the fingerpoke, they only drew that number 10 times before that, and on 5 of those occasions they had no competition from Raw.

I'm going with the screwjob, because that did something for McMahon's character, even if I think it is exaggerated. The fingerpoke had little significance of its own, either in the ratings or in the general running of WCW. All I would perhaps say is that it was indicative of the general trend of WCW getting shit, although that is perhaps better exemplified by Sting's Starrcade abomination at the start and Vince Russo winning the WCW title at the end.

 

[BOSTN BEANER]

The montreal screw job left a longer impression. It was terrible, especially after the it happened more and more kept coming out until it was all out about what went down backstage before and after the match. I'm a huge bret hart fan and it made me switch from wwe to wcw for a while until I realized that wcw didn't even know how to showcase the talent that bret hart was. The montreal screw job pissed me off for a long time as well as others but at the same time I now see why vince did what he did. He couldn't let bret go on wcw tv with his belt even though I don't think he would do that, wcw may have seen him win and told bret bring the title over here we are gona use it on monday nitro. And being under contract by wcw bret may have felt obligated to do it and it was a chance vince could not take. I understand every angle of it but it was a huge story for a long time and it definately left a lasting impression that many will never forget. Plus the nwo splitting up was funny, it was a dumb way to try and continue a group that was dropping in popularity.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

The finger poke is the single most overrated event in wrestling history. The fact is Raw had won the ratings for 12 of the 13 weeks leading up to the Jan. 4 Nitro when the finger poke happened. In fact, I did a little math, and the Finger Poke actually helped bring the ratings up temporarily. I averaged the ratings from Sep. 98 to May 99

monthly average
Sep: 4.625
Oct: 4.65
Nov: 4.24
Dec: 4.25
Jan: 4.85
Feb: 4.68
Mar: 4.125
Apr: 4.175
May: 3.4

As you can see the ratings for Nitro actually went up for a couple months after the Finger Poke. Although it didnt last, to say the Finger Poke led to the downfall is clearly inaccurate. Everyone wants to try and pinpoint the exact moment that WCW failed, and try to blame it on some creative decision. Without getting to far off track as I have explained in some of the What killed WCW discussions, the cause of WCW not existing was Ted Turner loosing control of Time Warner. To put the finger poke in the same category as the Screw Job is just insulting. In fact, a case could be made that the Screw job had more to do with the death of WCW as it is could be considered when the attitude era really kinda got started which lead to Stone Cold being the WWF champ. And it was a week after Austin won the title that Raw won the ratings war for the first time and began to really fight back against Nitro.
And personally I enjoyed the Finger Poke. I was a huge nWo mark and for me to see them get the whole group back together was great.

I think this post is the cirtical one, and not surprisingly, the one that is being ignored by the people arguing for the Finger Poke.

Here's the thing: The Finger Poke was brilliant. It was a great swerve to fix a contrived NWO vs. NWO angle, and refreshen the thing. The ratings improved (backed up by the evidence above). My feeling wit the Finger Poke is that it is always blown up by hardcore fans because, as usual, they tend to over-inflate their importance vs. the general crowd. When this happened, people were genuinely angry that Hogan was champ again. People tuned in to see him lose. It was a beautiful, money-making angle. The only two negatives about it were the fact that Nash had JUST beaten Goldberg and the just terrible booking that followed. But the actual Finger Poke itself was a brilliant swerve. The problem is Vince Russo is just a guy who puts EVERYTHING he thinks on TV, as opposed to having some sort of filter. So we get these brilliant ideas, like the FInger Poke, and they're usually surrounded by garbage. When the Poke happened, there were some people online, hardcore fans, who were apoplectic...but they weren't the general consensus. People cared about what was happening in WCW because of this.

As to the "Nitro only reached a 5 rating 3 more times after the Finger Poke...well, yeah...but all of those 5 ratings came within a month after the FInger Poke! It GENERATED interest and GENERATE revenue. The follow up sucked. But the Finger Poke was brilliant.