Fingerpoke of Doom or Montreal Screwjob? Which has had a more lasting effect?

[It's...Baylariat!]

This is something I've wondered about recently. Both of these instances were controversial and were complete swerves to many fans. And both left lasting impressions on the respective promotions. I'll make my case for both and let you decide which has had the more lasting effect.

The Fingerpoke of Doom

​

I'll give some background on this since this is lesser known than the Montreal Screwjob. This was a change of the guard so to speak. Basically, the NWO had ran its course and were split up into the Wolfpac and Black and White. Nash led the Wolfpac and Hogan was the leader of Black and White. A tease was done to feud Nash with Hogan, which many fans salivated at because it meant the end of a burned out faction and the beginning of a legit power struggle backstage. Mind you, Nash is the World Heavyweight Champion after ending Goldberg's streak at Starrcade. This is in 1999...two years before WCW's demise. This took place on an episode of WCW Monday Nitro and many believe this to be the turning point in the Monday Night Wars. It was in front of a sold out Georgia Dome crowd of nearly 40,000 people. Many expected a rematch with Goldberg and Nash...what we got was an infamous part of wrestling lore. Goldberg was nowhere to be found due to an angle where he was arrested for stalking Miss Elizabeth. Was actually supposed to be rape, but Goldberg wanted NO part of that. So instead of getting Goldberg facing Nash in the Georgia Dome, we get a Hogan/Nash match due to Hogan's heat with Nash. Hogan was also 'retired' at this point for nearly two months. We get the match...and they circle the ring, with Hogan poking Nash in the chest, Nash going down to the mat, and Hogan pinning Nash for the WHC. In essence, this led to the downfall of Nitro with the show only cracking 5.0 twice the remaining time Nitro was on the air.

The Montreal Screwjob

​

I'm not going into much detail on what happened here because it's so widely known, it's nearly memorized by the majority of wrestling fans. A brief synopsis will do. This took place at WWF's Survivor Series in 1997. The background is Hart is WWE Champion, but is weighing the option of taking a huge contract with WCW. Hart is still contracted with the WWF and even signed a 20 year deal to stay with the Federation for the rest of his career. His match was against HBK Shawn Michaels. Both Hart and Michaels hate each other due to some legit heat caused by Michaels stirring shit about Hart's affair with Sunny (Tammy Sytch). Hart was adamant about not dropping the belt to HBK, but Vince wanted the belt off of Hart so there was no chance the Hitman would take the belt to WCW. The match happens, Hart thinks he wins the match, Vince, Pat Patterson, HBK and HHH know otherwise. The rest is in that picture above. Hart goes off on Vince and naked punches Vince in the dressing room, breaking his jaw and ankle in the process. True story. And in that, we get the birth of Mr. McMahon, the heel character, and the cockiness of HBK is brought to life in an even brighter picture.

So there you go. What has had the longer lasting effect? The Fingerpoke or the Screwjob?

 

[ABMorales787]

I would say the Fingerpoke Of Doom. It killed WCW. Like you said Lariat. The ratings were never the same again. It killed a company and ended an era. It killed a boom period. As for the Screwjob, it might have caused a huge stir and broke down many barriers that should've never been broken, but the after effect wasn't something that couldn't be "mildly" fixed. In a way it created us, the "smarks". So far, the only thing we've killed/saved is Matt Hardy's career. But that's just my opinion.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I would say the Fingerpoke Of Doom. It killed WCW. Like you said Lariat. The ratings were never the same again. It killed a company and ended an era. It killed a boom period. As for the Screwjob, it might have caused a huge stir and broke down many barriers that should've never been broken, but the after effect wasn't something that couldn't be "mildly" fixed. In a way it created us, the "smarks". So far, the only thing we've killed/saved is Matt Hardy's career. But that's just my opinion.

All good points here, A-D-A. This is why I was leaning toward saying the Fingerpoke of Doom. It pretty much killed what credibility the WHC had in WCW and also kept the NWO alive, which was sorely in need of being put out of its misery. Instead, it went on and on...and on. It also was a big 'fuck you' to a 40,000 seat dome that was jam packed and in anticipation of seeing some sort of title match, and getting that!? I would have probably thrown a battery at one of them.

Buuuuut, then you have the Screwjob, which ended Bret Hart's career. Without that taking place, who knows if Hart would have even left WCW. If that doesn't happen, then Hart doesn't get kicked in the head, or be mismanaged in WCW. It could have made Hart's career that much more legendary. But it also may have been the end of HBK's career in WWE as well. He DID have friends in WCW with Hall, Nash, and Waltman. Things could have been real different.

I still say it could be the Fingerpoke of Doom though.

 

[CKDaimen]

Ok this is getting out of hand.

Am I really the only one who thought the finger poke of doom was fucking hilarious?

To compare that to the Montreal Screwjob is really overdoing it. Nash and Hogan pulled a swerve. It was funny. Nash is ultra sarcastic so I was not surprised. I thought the whole thing was vintage Nash and vintage nWo. I really don't see the big deal. I think the reason WCW went down after that is more because of the WWE stepping their game up and improving their product. WWE would have beat WCW fingerpoke of doom or not. But the Montreal Screwjob is what caused one of WWE's biggest hall of famers to blacklist himself, and it has been the subject of controversy, debate, and spoofing for over 10 years. Even the subject of the documentary "Hitman Hart, Wrestling with Shadows." I doubt there will be a "Fingerpoke of Doom: The Untold story" DVD release any time soon.

 

[Remix]

I'd go for the screwjob too. While the poke arguably killed WCW, on the whole it's not concidered to be a huge part of the history of wrestling. Montreal, however is. HBK's a heel by default in Canada, people still debate it, and it's continually referenced by the WWE.

The poke, while an induring image of the egocentric booking of the dying days of WCW just hasnt had the impact of Montreal. Though since the screwjob only directly affected one man's career and the poke accelerated WCW's demise (affecting many many more people's careers), it should probably be the other way around.

 

[tcannon2007]

I think the Screwjob had a lasting effect because the screwjob basically led to Mr. McMahon being born as well as the mega-feud between McMahon and Stone Cold Steve Austin that catapulted WWE ratings and made WWE TV worth watching for years to come

 

[ABMorales787]

Am I really the only one who thought the finger poke of doom was fucking hilarious?

To compare that to the Montreal Screwjob is really overdoing it. Nash and Hogan pulled a swerve. It was funny. Nash is ultra sarcastic so I was not surprised. I thought the whole thing was vintage Nash and vintage nWo. I really don't see the big deal.

You can't be serious. There were over 40,000 people who paid good money to get in there to see the end of an angle that had degenerated into a powerstruggle that was putting the company's progression at risk. People were expecting a Starcade quality main event. Instead they got a big Fuck You from the guys who are supposed to lead the company. What does that tell me? That you would rather take control of a company and do with it as you please rather than make it progress?

There are 2 rules in Professional Wrestling that keep it all in movement:

1) Generating Revenue
Without money, there's no way to produce a show. No way to pay the atheletes or provide the locations.

2) Following The Fans
They are giving you their money so you can give back to them and entertain. No matter how much you wanna control, its ultimately the fans who have the last word.

Hogan and Nash broke rule #2 just to please their pride. And how did the fans respond to this betrayal? By betraying them back. Down goes rule #1. So how do you produce a wrestling show now?


The screwjob was a clash of the minds of Bret Hart, Vince McMahon and Shawn Michaels. The Fingerpoke of Doom was a clash between Hogan, Nash and followers vs The Fans and the rest of WCW.
Which ones bigger?

 

[WWEFreak]

I think the the MSJ made a more lasting impression... i have actually never heard of the fingerpoint of doom untill now.... looking at it in youtube... i just laughed... i dont think any1 even mkes remarks about fingerpoke... the last remark i read about from wiki was when HBK n HH fueded when he said "watcha gunna do when HBK wont lay down for u" the screwjob on the other hand is mentioned every single time they in canada

 

[Fallen Angel 21.3]

i would have to say both of them have the same effect. With the fingerpoke it brought the demise of WCW and has been labeled one of the final nails in WCW casket. While the Screwjob WWE beats it like a dead horse when the want to screw somebody out of a match or a championship in fact i lost count how many times it has happen

 

[CKDaimen]

You can't be serious. There were over 40,000 people who paid good money to get in there to see the end of an angle that had degenerated into a powerstruggle that was putting the company's progression at risk.

I am very much serious...I did think it was fucking hilarious. Now wait a minute. Let's just take a look at this. Listen to yourself. How many times have you witnessed some bullshit ass ending to a Raw, Smackdown, etc. main event? I mean, come on, you're talking about the finger poke of doom as if it happened on a PPV. Now, if that shit happened on a PPV, not only would I be 100% with you, but I would even put that AHEAD of the montreal screw job. It was on A MOTHER FUCKING NITRO. Paid good money MY ASS. It was free to the millions of us who were watching on TV and for those who were in attendence, they should know that weekly programming is VERY UNPREDICTABLE.

Like I said, I can see it only working with the nWo and with Nash, because Nash is too nonchalant and his character doesnt care about being World Champion. What can I say, Nash always makes me laugh. I like his sarcasm, and I think it was something his character would do. Now the reason I highlighted this particular quote of yours is because the fingerpoke of doom WAS THE ENDING OF THAT STORYLINE. It just wasn't the ending that YOU WANTED TO SEE.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Ok this is getting out of hand.

Is not.

Am I really the only one who thought the finger poke of doom was fucking hilarious?

Probably not, but you're in the minority as far as that's concerned. How anyone could think that's funny is beyond me. It was a slap in the face to everything WCW tried to build up those last few years. It was a rib on a loyal audience. Nothing more. Nothing less.

To compare that to the Montreal Screwjob is really overdoing it.

No it isn't. Both instances had their impacts on the business at hand. WCW never saw good ratings after that and watched the WWE put out a better product and eventually put them out of business. Who wants to see a title defended that changed hands thanks to a poke on the chest? I don't.

Nash and Hogan pulled a swerve. It was funny. Nash is ultra sarcastic so I was not surprised. I thought the whole thing was vintage Nash and vintage nWo.

Which was all about them and not about the fans, other wrestlers or the company. They were selfish and made a backstage rib public and involving ramifications with the World Title, a centerpiece of their stories for years and years. Reputations were grown on that title and for them to 'swerve' anyone was a slap in the face to fans everywhere.

I really don't see the big deal.

Then you don't understand the ramifications this had on wrestling. It was a big deal. To the fans, to the wrestlers vying for that belt and for wrestlers who were wanting that push and realized that Hogan was once again...on top of the heap.

I think the reason WCW went down after that is more because of the WWE stepping their game up and improving their product. WWE would have beat WCW fingerpoke of doom or not.

That's an arguable point for another thread. Be that as it may, the WCW was going forward with Sting's return and Goldberg still having some momentum, but this selfish act ruined any push for anyone at that time.

But the Montreal Screwjob is what caused one of WWE's biggest hall of famers to blacklist himself, and it has been the subject of controversy, debate, and spoofing for over 10 years. Even the subject of the documentary "Hitman Hart, Wrestling with Shadows." I doubt there will be a "Fingerpoke of Doom: The Untold story" DVD release any time soon.

Maybe not. It was featured in the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD and most experts say it was the downfall of WCW, even though more than two years would pass until the WCW closed its doors. I think the Fingerpoke had a big impact on a major wrestling franchise. Can you imagine the WWE title changing hands if HHH poked Randy Orton in the chest and Orton just falls down like he's been shot with HHH pinning him for the WWE title?

 

[CKDaimen]

Maybe not. It was featured in the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD and most experts say it was the downfall of WCW, even though more than two years would pass until the WCW closed its doors. I think the Fingerpoke had a big impact on a major wrestling franchise. Can you imagine the WWE title changing hands if HHH poked Randy Orton in the chest and Orton just falls down like he's been shot with HHH pinning him for the WWE title?

I dont want to repeat myself but I think I did a better job of explaining myself in the last post of page 1. Basically my argument is that it's ok because it happened on TV and not a PPV, and because it suited Nash's character, which, especially in WCW, was non-stop laughs.

I also have not seen the WCW Rise and Fall DVD, but I think they are just trying to justify filling hours of programming alotted in the DVD to explain why WCW went down, when really WWE had a better long term product, that's it. I don't see how you can blame it on the God Damn fingerpoke of f'n doom, lol. I mean come on. I don't mean to say this thread is ridiculous, I know that's how I may have come off...but I guess my initial response was my way of just giving a thunderous "MONTREAL SCREW JOB! DUH!" response to this thread.

 

[Megadeth]

The finger poke is the single most overrated event in wrestling history. The fact is Raw had won the ratings for 12 of the 13 weeks leading up to the Jan. 4 Nitro when the finger poke happened. In fact, I did a little math, and the Finger Poke actually helped bring the ratings up temporarily. I averaged the ratings from Sep. 98 to May 99

monthly average
Sep: 4.625
Oct: 4.65
Nov: 4.24
Dec: 4.25
Jan: 4.85
Feb: 4.68
Mar: 4.125
Apr: 4.175
May: 3.4

As you can see the ratings for Nitro actually went up for a couple months after the Finger Poke. Although it didnt last, to say the Finger Poke led to the downfall is clearly inaccurate. Everyone wants to try and pinpoint the exact moment that WCW failed, and try to blame it on some creative decision. Without getting to far off track as I have explained in some of the What killed WCW discussions, the cause of WCW not existing was Ted Turner loosing control of Time Warner. To put the finger poke in the same category as the Screw Job is just insulting. In fact, a case could be made that the Screw job had more to do with the death of WCW as it is could be considered when the attitude era really kinda got started which lead to Stone Cold being the WWF champ. And it was a week after Austin won the title that Raw won the ratings war for the first time and began to really fight back against Nitro.
And personally I enjoyed the Finger Poke. I was a huge nWo mark and for me to see them get the whole group back together was great.

 

[SavageTaker]

I agree with everyone that has said the Fingerpoke of Doom had a longer lasting effect. It was big fuck you to the fans that payed their hard earned money. Also, I think that this event is what really put the last nail in the coffin for WCW. They actually had a chance to do something new that the fans would have loved to see, meaning they would have paid to see it, yet they went and fucked it up. Yeah…they would have still died because Jamie Kellner didn’t want wrestling on the network, but who knows how things could have turned out if it wasn’t for this? However, while I do agree with everything said by everyone else about this event, there is something I disagree with.

Buuuuut, then you have the Screwjob, which ended Bret Hart's career. Without that taking place, who knows if Hart would have even left WCW.

Here is the thing though, even if there was no screwjob Bret Hart was still leaving for WCW therefore his career would have ended either ways. Vince told him to go because he couldn’t afford him so he went. Vince just wanted to make sure that Hart wouldn’t leave with the title even if Hart did say he wouldn’t do what Madusa did. So Vince decided to still screw him in Montreal. So I wouldn’t say that the screwjob is what ended Bret’s career. It was Goldberg. And I think that some, but not a lot, of the blame could be placed on Hart himself.

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

The "Fingerpoke of Doom" was a match...The MSJ was an event. While many can make their case that the FPOD did irreversible damage to WCW, the fact can also be made that with or without that one single match, that WCW sooner or later was going to cave in on itself. At that point, WCW was at its apex and we can honestly take it all the way back to a few week prior when Nash called his own card and defeated Goldberg. At that point Bill should have NOT lost the title. Going into 1999 the WWF was red eff'n hot with Austin & Rock BOTH the #1 players. Keeping the title on Goldberg with as hot and over as he was would have carried WCW through that year because no fan of WCW wanted him to lose (look at the way the ring was littered when he lost).

But moving on. The Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels match was an event that caused the changes of so many lives, even the lives of those who weren't associated with the match whatsoever. If the MSJ had not happened, who's to say Owen Hart would have not died? Who's to say the Austin era wouldn't have been put on hold for a few more months, maybe a year? Who's to say the HHH would have NOT became the leader of DX a few months later after Michaels retired due to his back injury? The list goes on and on...

Vince was as calculating as ever back in late '97 and knew that he needed to turn a corner quickly and this was the beginning of that turn. The lasting effects is that both WCW & the WWF turned a corner (though obviously at different stages and years) but one turned down the dark road and the other into the light. The MSJ beget The Rock, Kane, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Austin, HHH, The Big Show & even Vince McMahon all becoming WWE champions within a three year period...With the same three years, Booker T., Scott Steiner, Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Nash, Sting, Hogan, DDP & someone named David Arquette all won the WHC...Not taking anything away from everyone NOT named David Arquette, however, David Arquette is on that list. Not the most lasting image WCW was ever hoping for.

 

[Attitude_Raven]

The Fingerpoke, after that a whole company went downhill, not only the ratings dropped, but the credibility was severely damaged, also the product was slowly getting away from wat it was before, as a lot of bad ideas came from Russo & Ferrara, and with less ratings = less money, WCW had to cut a lot of costs, play shows in smaller arenas and cutting costs even more, so in 2001 a great percent of the roster was fired and in march, the worst moment in Wrestling history happened, Vince bought WCW and then buried its legacy by making theit talent job to WWF/E poster boys. 8 years later a lot of people (including myself) still mourning WCW

the Montreal Screwjob in fact saved WWF/E, as they saw then a chance to refresh their product and create the Attitude era, thanks to the crowd´s disdain for Vince he got the idea of being an Evil boss, and with the rise of Austin they saw a new top-face in the company that helped to define the new style that WWF would embrace, and it weas awesome, but thenm in 2000, as every WWF/E era it started to get stale, as Austin was losing tv time to The Rock & HHH, and those two were shoved down our throats every fuckin´ week, but at least on that time they´ve acquired some great in ring workers like Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, Saturn, Malenko and Angle, so the upper-mid card was really worth to watch despite the repeating main events

 

[Gallops]

What everyone is failing to mention is that the Montreal Screw Job was NOT AN ANGLE! It was Vince really screwing Bret Hart over on his last day with the WWF. Vince changed the ending of the match to him calling for the bell. Only three people knew about it. Vince, Shawn, and Earl Hebner.

The Fingerpoint of Doom, honestly, was a rip off of what the WWF did 2 years earlier. Shawn Michaels and Triple H did the exact same thing for a match over the WWF European Championship. They teased a break up between the two, a match on RAW for the European Title that HBK had won from the British Bulldog not too long before, and fans were going nuts for it. But what happened come match time? Triple H pokes HBK in the chest, runs to the ropes a couple times jumping over HBK's motionless body, and then covers him and wins.

The Fingerpoint of Doom in WCW killed it, but it didn't affect the lives of several men for a long long time. HBK STILL gets booed in Canada. Bret didn't do anything for the WWE until he finally accepted a spot in the HOF. Had that not gone down, Bret could very well be a part of the WWE in some way right now.

 

[brucegough]

The Montreal Screwjob and the heat Vince McMahon created for himself definitely set the way for WWE in defeating WCW in the ratings war as it was an edgier move that shocked the wrestling world. I was furious, i loved Bret Hart and i loved WCW and i was so happy to see Bret Hart come and wrestle with true wrestling legends.

The Fingerpoke of Doom, no matter what anyone says, was also one of the ultimate swerves of all time, even if some of you think it did tarnish wrestling's reputation to a certain extent. But, that's what the NWO was all about, they had done it before, and it was only fitting that they do it to such an extreme level in an effort to win back the ratings war and one up WWE. I had been in a bad mood for half a week before it happened and i was upset with all the incredibly bad storylines and direction of WCW for the past half a year. And Nash and Hogan hating each other just didn't make sense. The only thing that made sense was when Nash dropped for Hogan and the NWO was back together again as a cohesive unit with Hogan as champ. I was laughing so hard i was crying, i don't remember having such a "whoa what just happened" moment since watching that movie Sixth Sense. Those who remembered the crappy WCW months before the finger poke will remember that the NWO vs NWO angle seemed contrived, as if both sides weren't really into hating each other. At some point in the storyline, if one reflected back, it was obvious that both sides were in cahoots about reuniting and it all came about on that first Nitro of 1999. It was suppose to be a return to the history of NWO swerves, the ultimate swerve, the one that would boost back ratings, the move that would counter the Montreal Screwjob and outedge WWE, and propel the WCW to a position where they could make Thunder an NWO show and then eventually wipe out WWE..fans actually did become interested again for a brief period and ratings started coming back..things only backfired when all the major NWO members went down injured within two months of the fingerpoke and there was no real planned direction for the other wrestlers who were to be feuding with the NWO. If the NWO had of remained and all its major players had of been active as they had been prior to Spring Stampede 1998, then right now we all might be fortunate enough to be watching WCW Nitro instead of that joke of a show called RAW.

I do not agree with those of you wrestling revisionists who babble on about WWE things being classy and everything else being unclassy. These people have become brainwashed watching WWE-slanted documentaries constructed only to devalue and understate the importance of anything that wasn't created by Vince McMahon. I just cannot agree with those of you who say that the fingerpoke match killed wrestling's credibility or that WCW lost the ratings war because of that single event..The fact is WCW began losing ground a year and a half earlier when WWE became edgier after Bret Hart was screwed over and WWE regained the ratings lead the week in March 1998 when Stone Cold won his first title and was, in a realistic way, doing what every wrestling fan on earth wanted to do: beat the crap out of Vince McMahon. WCW just didn't have anything better than the Hogan/Savage NWO split to counter Stone Cold Steve Austin and the heat Vince McMahon had generated from the Screwjob..although i don't necessarily think wrestling's credibility was killed by either events, but if either one of the two in question did more to kill wrestling's credibility for me, it would have had to have Vince McMahon's unclassy move to screw over Bret Hart. But because it was less classy than anything the NWO had done before, it was therefore seen as an edgier and scummier move and thus a better business move, and it boosted ratings and led to WWE beating WCW. Bischoff and WCW tried to outclass and outedge WWE with the Fingerpoke of Doom but it just didn't have as big an effect as the Screwjob since it was a scripted storyline instead of a real, unscripted event. I believe the Screwjob match should have tarnished wrestling worse than the fingerpoke of doom since it involved an unknowing participant who was screwed over and embarrassed in his home country. If the fingerpoke of doom match had of been edgier and scummier and was unscripted with Hogan and Nash honestly defying the match's scripted ending, like the Screwjob match, then perhaps WCW would have done better business, got back its ratings, and still be around today.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I dont want to repeat myself but I think I did a better job of explaining myself in the last post of page 1.

LOL, K.

Basically my argument is that it's ok because it happened on TV and not a PPV, and because it suited Nash's character, which, especially in WCW, was non-stop laughs.

Just no. Just because Nash wanted to get a laugh out of the crowd, it was ok to have a title change hands on a poke to the chest? It's one thing to do that to the European title like DX did, but this was the WCW World Heavyweight Title. And Nash said, 'Fuck this company, I think this would be hilarious!' Nash was a cancer in WCW. Yea I said it.

I also have not seen the WCW Rise and Fall DVD, but I think they are just trying to justify filling hours of programming alotted in the DVD to explain why WCW went down, when really WWE had a better long term product, that's it.

The WWE might have had a good product during this time, but to undermind what this meant to wrestling is asinine. It was a big deal for WCW and it ruined a lot of potential stories just to see a stale faction get ONE more big run at the top by shooting the shit with 15 minute promos and 'shooting' on wrestlers that were worlds better than them. But Nash was a cut up, so it makes it ok. Ugh.

I don't see how you can blame it on the God Damn fingerpoke of f'n doom, lol. I mean come on. I don't mean to say this thread is ridiculous, I know that's how I may have come off...but I guess my initial response was my way of just giving a thunderous "MONTREAL SCREW JOB! DUH!" response to this thread.

Blame what? I didn't BLAME anything. I just said that it had a longer lasting impact on the wrestling landscape than the screwjob. Sure, the Screwjob was underhanded and was more serious, but to have Nash and Hogan PRE PLAN this move is much more disturbing. There was no benefit in doing this. Hogan, Nash and the kilq backstage got a huge laugh out of it. That's it. No other logical reason to do this. And on top of that, instead of making Goldberg look like a monster again... have him get tased...again...and have NWO spray painted on him. But it was all because Nash was a funny guy. Please.

 

[WWF Wrestling Fan]

The Montreal Screw Job has the most effect you don't hear much of the finger point of doom then you do with The Screw Job everyone knew Bret was going to wCw and he was then the WWF Champion yeah no one saw it coming so it was a shocking moment in Wrestling it was a REAL LIFE moment and Vince McMahon played it off to make him Mr McMahon the evil boss of the World Wrestling Federation I think Bret should have man up and lost the title to Michaels at Survivor Series but he wanted to drop the title out side of Canada he was going to a different company look what Alundra Blaze did when she went back to wCw as Madusa she threw the WWF Women's Championship in the trash can LIVE on Nitro Vince didn't want that to happen to the WWF Title so he had to do what was best for HIS Company and he had to screw Bret but in reality just like Vince told Jim Ross Bret screwed Bret and Bret Hart altho I still like him Bret screwed him self if he didn't go to wCw he wouldn't have had a concussion nor a stroke if he wasn't in wCw if he didnt wrestle Goldberg at Starrcade and was still in the WWF at the time he wouldn't be in the shape he is in right now.

 

[Tenta]

Hmm...... Very good topic, Lariat. This is why you should become The Old School Mod. Maybe take on a Steve Corino gimmick. Though Shadow has that covered...

Anyway, as to what was more important, it has to be Montreal. Look, if Vince didn't pull off the Screwjob, there would be no WWE right now. Plain and simple. If Vince decided to keep Bret Hart, he would have gone into debt trying to pay off that man's salary. Not only did the Screwjob clear payroll for a good couple years, it also set the seeds for Austin-McMahon. Do you really think Vince would have been nearly that good of an on screen character, without that built in heat of screwing Bret? Vince reminds us of it for years after, just so he can prove a point that he is the boss. His on-screen character, whether or not we'd like to buy it, was born of that screwjob. And without Austin-McMahon, would the WWE have taken itself into the Attitude Era? I doubt it would have had the impact it did.

As for this feeling the Fingerpoke killed WCW.... In a word, how? I think it can be stated that what ultimately killed WCW was the merger of AOL Time Warner, and Jamie Kellner's decision to pull TV Time slots from Fusient Media's Deal with Time Warner. The fact that WCW placed inept management in front of Eric pretty much sealed WCW's fate. I understand the poke of doom was a tragedy in wrestling, but WCW did live for two years after it was pulled off. Sure, it wasn't good television, but all it truly boiled down to was an angle. Angles rarely kill a promotion: Inept business, followed by owners that obviously don't care for the product, does. The fact is, WCW was screwed over when the AOL Time Warner merger came to be. As long as Ted Turner was in control, WCW was going to have a place in Turner's broadcasting, because of how much wrestling bailed him out in the seventies when he was just starting his Turner broadcasting. When Ted was forced out as a minority owner of Time Warner, WCW was going to answer to a new set of bosses, and none particularly had professional wrestling pegged as a show of importance. The Fingerpoke was bad, but it in no way killed WCW.

 

[XgringolocoX]

Everyone keeps saying "lasting effect"? What lasting effect did either of these events have on the industry? Fingerpoke of Doom....what happened? WCW still would have failed. It still would have lost it's TV slot. Stick a fork in it, DONE.
MSJ? What real change did this ellict? Hart signed with WCW before this happened. Vinny Mac wasn't a heel right after this exactly, but fans who understood what went down hated the guy. Not a big change for the business.
So I'll say neither. While both have significance in their own right, neigher has made that great of a lasting difference on wrestling. Hate me, go ahead...it's ok lol

 

[Tenta]

MSJ? What real change did this ellict? Hart signed with WCW before this happened. Vinny Mac wasn't a heel right after this exactly, but fans who understood what went down hated the guy. Not a big change for the business.

You're serious? You really think Vince would have been a heel after Survivor Series, if the Montreal Screwjob didn't go down? You think Vince would have had that built in heat from the fans if he didn't screw the beloved Bret Hart over?

Maybe you don't get it, but before The Montreal Screwjob, Vince was a colorless announcer. Period. End of story. He wasn't portraying a character at all, and the only signs of playing a role came after the Screwjob. It wasn't until weeks after that Vince realized he could use this heat to create a character for himself.

So where does this belief arise that, if the Montreal Screwjob didn't occur, Vince would still be a heel?

 

[CKDaimen]

LOL, K.


Just no. Just because Nash wanted to get a laugh out of the crowd, it was ok to have a title change hands on a poke to the chest? It's one thing to do that to the European title like DX did, but this was the WCW World Heavyweight Title. And Nash said, 'Fuck this company, I think this would be hilarious!' Nash was a cancer in WCW. Yea I said it.




The WWE might have had a good product during this time, but to undermind what this meant to wrestling is asinine. It was a big deal for WCW and it ruined a lot of potential stories just to see a stale faction get ONE more big run at the top by shooting the shit with 15 minute promos and 'shooting' on wrestlers that were worlds better than them. But Nash was a cut up, so it makes it ok. Ugh.




Blame what? I didn't BLAME anything. I just said that it had a longer lasting impact on the wrestling landscape than the screwjob. Sure, the Screwjob was underhanded and was more serious, but to have Nash and Hogan PRE PLAN this move is much more disturbing. There was no benefit in doing this. Hogan, Nash and the kilq backstage got a huge laugh out of it. That's it. No other logical reason to do this. And on top of that, instead of making Goldberg look like a monster again... have him get tased...again...and have NWO spray painted on him. But it was all because Nash was a funny guy. Please.

Wow, ok, so you really couldn't just leave this alone? Ok...


Look, guy...let's be real. You can post everything that's about to be next from me and reply like you just did, that's cool, but just be real afterwords.....this entire thread is based on the fact that you are a fucking mark. I mean, case and point, if there wasn't a Rise and Fall of WCW DVD then there wouldn't be this thread , right? I mean, be honest. IF THERE WAS NOT, A RISE AND FALL OF WCW DVD, YOUR MARK FUCKING ASS WOULD NOT HAVE COME UP WITH THIS VERY THREAD, RIGHT? Ok, you and I know both know that's a yes. Ok....so you are telling me... That a mother fucking finger poke, a comical relief weekly TV show finger poke, is in the same league as a PPV fucking kayfabe destroying montreal screw job that is WITHOUT QUESTION...YES, WITHOUT QUESTION, the most controversial event of Wrestling history, in the same league as a fucking Monday Nitro finger poke comedy relief event? I fuckin respected your ass Lariat and your overated or underated series, and yet you come at me with fuckin disrespect. You are a fuckin mark. Just because the WWE came out with a DVD that said the finger poke of doom is a key element of WCW's downfall, you come out with this GARBAGE ASS THREAD. How in the blue GOD DAMN you and all the other people can think that a comical finger poke on national, UNPAID TV is in the same league as a kayfabe screwjob is beyond me. It's really disgusting. Kevin Nash is fuckin hilarious. His whole character just screams, "I don't care." It screams, "I don't give a fuck" And he was in the nWo, the world's most controversial pro wrestling stable, and you want to disect this bit by bit. It was a fuckin nWo comical screwjob. GET OVER IT. The only reason you aren't GETTING OVER IT, is because despite your wrestlezone.com status, you are a FUCKING MARk. I mean, you are sitting here at your fucking computer and you are comparing this STUPID, COMICAL FINGERPOKE to the MONTREAL SCREWJOB! Listen to me...the MONTREAL SCREW JOB! Before the DVD was released, this freakin thread would not have so many fuckin ******ed marks posting that the fingerpoke was in the same league or more drastic to pro Wrestling than the fucking screw job. Look, I respected you Lariat, but you came at me with disrespect, and furthermore, all the people who said the fingerpoke of doom is more signifcant are also fucking marks. I mean, the guy a few threads before me who posted the very informative thread of the ratings had PROOF that the ratings were going down BEFORE THE FINGER POOK OF DOOM and you still IGNORED IT AND DECIDED TO BE FUCKING MARKS TO THE DVD. Look, I don't need this shit. If this fucking message board is fulll of marks, you won't hear from my ass again. I'm going as long as I can on this board before I get bored (no pun intended) and retire from posting.....but I'm trying to have an intelligent converstation. And though I tried to give this thread credibility, the fact is, comparing the FUCKING finger poke of doom to the infamous MONTREAL SCREW JOB is the mark move of the century. I didn't want to say that on your thread but since you pushed me, it's the truth. It's a fucking mark move dude. It's nowhere near the same thing. I don't give a fuck if a thousand people vote "Finger poke of doom" it's a mark move. Any intelligent wrestling fan knows that the montreal screw job is in a league of it's own, and if something where to challenge it as far as significance, it wouldn't be a FUCKING FINGERPOKE from Hogan to Nash, but obviosly Lariout, you are too much of a mark to fuckin see that.

Here is the bottom line to all the marks (Including you Lariat) who are reading this: The Montreal Screw Job has been referenced, debated, and has impacted careers for over a decade now. The finger poke of doom has, for the most part, never been referenced excecpt for the DVD that your MARK ASS just watched. So just shut the fuck up, man. It's not the same thing. It's a fuckin comical nWo, Kevin Nash, I don't give a fuck, Weekly TV show gimmick compared to a "I don't want to job in my home country when I've been here for 15 years situation" and your stupid, mark ass is gonna compare that? Yes, give me a fuckin negative reputation. Warn me for flamin. I don't give a fuck. You came at me with disrespect so I'm gonna be 115% Shane Douglas real in return. You are a fucking mark, this thread has no fucking credibility, and you Lariat and anyone else who voted fingerpoke over Montreal is a FUCKING MARk. PERIOD.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

It wasn't the fingerpoke that had the lasting effect...it was the booking afterwards and the fact that Goldberg got injured. I was legitimately angry that Goldberg got screwed out of his title shot that night...and you better believe I tuned in for Thunder. It was a pretty good idea, in my opinion. It just didn't get carried out well in creative sessions.

The screwjob easily had the most lasting impact. They did the same thing the following year at Survivor Series...primarily, though...it turned Vince into a bad guy. And well...the rest is history.