ECW Region, Fourth Round, 3 Stages of Hell: (1) John Cena vs. (4) Harley Race

[deem]

First off - saying Race is needed in the final 8 of this tournament for utility as a heel is kinda silly. Argue he's the best heel left if you want, but there will be plenty in the finals. Punk/Flair would prob work heel in their primes and one is guarenteed there. HHH looks likely to beat Warrior, definitely a heel in his prime. Thats a quarter the field already - considering face vs face is way more logical to book than heel vs heel at any point, that looks enough even without entertaining Vader over Sammartino.

I'm not sure whether I'm out of the loop or not tonight, but I'm finding every match hard. I guess it's the nature of the final 16. Taker/Hart I can't seperate, not certain yet on HHH over Warrior, no clear cut winner here yet.

I really thought Cena should go over Funk, was willing to put a lot into that argument. This is SO different though - Race is a GOAT contender. An ahead of his time heel who absolutely grasped the industry, able to work a multitude of styles with the kayfabe accomplishments to back it up. At least 6 years as one of THE top guys in North America. This is very much a threat to Cena.

I find the modern vs oldschool bias intriguing. On one side - 3 modern era wrestlers in the top 16 is kind of flattering. Against that - easily Cena is THE guy that would carry the flag for modern day wrestling, would grace any final 8. I think if this tournament happened in 20 years, Cena being on top for 8y+ (with no signs of stopping yet at all) would have him perceived as one of the greatest ever. Right now, he's somewhat harmed by a bad reputation from the IWC earlier in his main event tenure imo (although respect seems to be growing from what I've seen).

For me, Race's six years as a top guy in the late 70s and early 80s doesn't quite match up to Cena's 8 years as THE top guy in modern day WWE. When I think about the top guy in WWF/E, I say Hart 1994-1997, Austin 1997-2001, Rock 2001-2002, Lesnar 2002-2003, HHH 2003-2005, Batista 2005-2005, Cena 2005-2013+. That's a HUGE time on top when you consider the other aces.

So for me, I'm taking Cena unless there is a kayfabe argument. For me, I think I'm willing to call gimmick match consistency a wash. Both are adept at all three stipulations here, I'd definitely expect them to get to the final fall. Probably via first fall Race, second fall Cena. Cage prowess - possibly slight edge to Race, I agree. It's gonna work against him that his most famous match was losing in a cage, but that's kinda harsh considering he was rightt at end of prime there and passing the torch to arguably the best ever.

I do agree Cena will be beaten up here - Funk in a no-DQ match followed by a gruelling 2/3 hardcore match vs Race in the same week?

I'm in trouble as everything I think within kayfabe points slightly at Race and on logical booking/career comparison strongly to Cena. I stated last round that I'd vote kayfabe from here, so I think I'm happy to take Race. Unless anyone can help me point towards Cena from a kayfabe standpoint.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You do realize we're gonna get chastised for tl:dr posts at this rate

I may have misread it, but I assumed the match was taking place a week after the bout with Funk. Since all of the bouts in this region are taking place in Chicago, it's hard to imagine having fourteen bouts on a card in one night, which is what's suggested. It's stated that the second, third, and fourth round matches were all one week after the first round matches. I imagine it's meant that it's a week after the previous match, or each man is wrestling three times in one night.

You're not the first but, from what I can ascertain, all Round 1 matches where over one night (8 bouts). One week later the 4 Round 2 matches where held and the venue semi finals a further week on and nothing seems to really dictate the venue final's relativity. However, KB did state that damage would start affecting the wrestlers after the gimmicks began and logic dictates that you will not have a card with 1 or 2 matches. Three high profile gimmick matches in one night would seem logical booking to me.

Still, it means screw all. Race never wrestled in ECW, so any speculation that they may have embraced him is just that: speculation. And this isn't Philadelphia, nor is it the Hammerstein Ballroom. It's Chicago. Cena was booed because he was going against the poster boy for ECW in RVD in 2006, and because he was going against the hometown boy CM Punk in Chicago. When he wrestled Lesnar at Extreme Rules in Chicago, he was cheered.

This whole tournament is speculation amigo and I speculate that an ECW bannered event will have an age restriction (so, no kiddies) and will attract every smark in the North East. Plus, and this isn't speculation, this is my own personal opinion - John got cheered against Brock because smarks hate the mercenary Lesnar more than Cena because he lives and breathes wrestling. Harley Race, as a guy who more than earned his stripes, would not face that backlash.

Because John Cena has dominated the WWE for 8 years and has repeatedly beaten and made to submit that heel that Harley Race was the biggest influence on. Cena has dominated longer then Race, and has made every major heel in the company tap out. Why would Race be any different?

And over that eight years he has faced the same guys over and over and over again. Race beat different guys continually - that was the nature of working the territories. The guy with the real experience of beating new guys is Race.

You don't need a heel in the finals of the region. You need the better man. That's undoubtably John Cena.

I think this point has been covered to infinity, this argument would only lead to a Hogan vs Austin final every year. Race was the biggest wrestler in the world in a different environment to Cena, that doesn't make him the lesser man.

Exactly. And when Cena goes one and done with a major heel, he wins. His experience with Lesnar in the past was 2003, before Cena was in his prime. When Lesnar returned, he was immediately main eventing, and built as an unstoppable monster. This was a first time affair with Cena in his prime, and Cena beat him.

So, it wasn't one and done. They had both met in the same organisation - Cena knew exactly what he was facing!

He may be the type of guy that ECW would love to push, but Cena would be exactly the type of guy that would stop him. Further, as you've pointed out, this is Chicago. It's not Philadelphia or New York or Florida, where most of their major PPV's were held. The region here doesn't matter as much as the match types, which favor Cena.

See my prior point: this is ECW sanctioned - kids will not be allowed. This event is aimed at the people who generally hate John.

My apologies. However, I'm still not sure how this is relevant. As I pointed out, Cena had two long, defining reigns early on in his prime. One of his "reigns" marrs the number entirely because he won the Elimination Chamber in 2010 only to lose the title minutes later to a fresh Batista.

Kind of like sqeezing through against Terry Funk in a bloody war only to face a relatively fresh Harley Race?

Cena's reputation is one that wins despite the odds being stacked against him. So even if what you say is true, which I don't believe it is, Cena's reputation says that he would win this match, as he's made a career of overcoming the odds.

And yet he doesn't always. In fact, when he does lose it's generally because the odds were overstacked: Edge cashing in his MitB, Edge's interference against RVD, Batista at EC, Sheamus in a fatal 4-Way, Del Rio in a 3-Way and his 2 WHC losses to Edge at EC and Backlash and that's just the World losses.

He also loses matches through stupidity: Edge at HiaC, Punk at MitB and his first loss to the Rock immediately springing to mind.

It's also where he had two of his most high profile wins. He made HHH tap out at Wrestlemania 22, and he defeated Brock Lesnar in an Extreme Rules match in 2012. The venue doesn't hurt Cena in any way.

And I would counter that with an event designed to attract people that hate John Cena would create a combination of the ECW One Night Stand and MitB matches that he lost. In both instances you have described, he had support.

I never said Cena didn't lose clean- the rules dictated that what Edge did was legal, and Cena lost clean. I'm saying that I don't see Edge showing up to interfere on Race's behalf. And even if there was interference, it's not as if Cena hasn't won major matches when there's been interference against him- he has.

Further, it's only speculation that someone would interfere against Cena. This isn't an ECW mark city, like New York or Philly. Therefore, it's essentially the ECW region in match types, and that favors Cena.

Then why bother even calling it an ECW match? Cena was perceived as basically being everything that ECW stood against, there will be no kids here - this event is hardcore and in your face and every single smark in the place will already be burning that he has went over the Sainted Funk. This sets up a final that might even surpass MitB for antiCena feeling.

You were the one who brought up Chicago as a knock against Cena. You can see above that Cena has had two major wins there as well. He retained the WWE Title by submission against HHH there at WM 22, and beat Brock Lesnar at Extreme Rules 2012 there. Two major wins, six years apart.

And in both cases he had support; I'm sorry to keep on about this but anything pushed by ECW would not encourage Cena support.

Because of the way Lesnar was pushed heading into the match. As the unstoppable monster who was the unquestioned favorite against Cena. And what did Lesnar do in his next match? He broke HHH's arm and made him tap out. Lesnar was being labeled as the "new face" of the WWE heading into his match with Cena, and Cena beat him 1-2-3. That's all.

To quote a certain Rattlesnake - WHAT? That makes Lesnar no different to any other flavor of the month monster heel who normally fades back into obscurity (do you remember Earthquake?). Simple facts are, Lesnar has broke the arms of alleged nonWrestler Triple H and retiree Shawn Michaels and is 1 and 2 since his return 11 months ago - this does not compare to a guy who drew across the US night in night out for 5 years.

He's made Batista, Randy Orton, JBL, and the Miz quit. Khali's first loss in a standard match in WWE was by submission to Cena. He made Big Show submit. Edge, Chris Jericho, HHH, CM Punk, and HBK have all tapped out to Cena. Who, in Cena's era, has Cena not made to quit in one way or another? Nobody.

What is the obsession with submission? It is only one of three ways to win the third bout... and of this list, I'd say that only Trips and HBK are on a level with Race and most have their victories over John too.

Sure it was. When Cena did it at Wrestlemania 20, it was revered as "this isn't possible!", or "unbelievable"!

My point is that Cena can match Race in strength, at least.

No dispute, my point was that Race was regarded such a draw that he was allowed to slam Andre.

I've pointed out how the venue doesn't disadvantage Cena due to the fact that he's won there more then he's lost, the organization is irrelevant here, and how two of the three match types favor Cena.

And I think I've already been through how an X-Rated ECW environment in a city where he has received tremendous negative response before has put him off his game before. This will not be the PG WWe Universe.

As for the previous round, it's hard to take it into account, because if we're to go by what's been said, this would be the third matchup of the night for each man. Each would be exhausted at this point, but Cena's endurance and ability to endure hellacious punishment actually favors him if we do factor in previous rounds.

I think I've already covered this (second bout of the night with Cena just overcoming Funk in a street fight while Race had a relatively easy passage by Backlund in a standard match) and Edge and Dave Batista has proved that an exhausted John Cena is a vulnerable John Cena.

All of Cena's "first" one on one matches with major names in his prime have seen him come out victorious. HHH, HBK, Edge, CM Punk, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, Big Show, and Brock Lesnar have all fallen victim to Cena in their first major matches against a prime Cena. Only Punk and HHH truly "got their wins back", as WWE frequently does.

"In his prime"? I'm sorry but if he has ever faced them, it cannot be the "first" 1on1. He faced Brock in Brock's prime, can you really say the returning Brock is "prime"? And you seem to have overlooked the guy he faced for the first time in an ECW environment - RVD. And what about the Rock?

And in their "higher stakes" match, he beat the Rock. And who did he beat to face the Rock? CM Punk. When the stakes are highest, Cena has generally come out victorious. Why wouldn't he do so against Race?

Higher stakes? He lost to the Rock when it was meant to be a once only deal. He lost to Punk when he was going to walk out of the company with his beloved WWe Belt and then lost the rematch too... and if you're going to use the prime argument against Brock for first time, surely the first time he met a prime Punk - he lost? These examples really don't exude confidence in his chances against a guy who drew across the US night in night out for five years without the aid of a Sports Entertainment juggernaut behind him.

1. This isn't Race's hometown, so I don't see how the fans would riot over a Cena win.

2. Race wasn't an ECW wrestler. Why would the fans riot over a Cena win?

Do you remember how Punk set up his match with Cena? By stirring up memories of ECW. This will not be the PG WWeCW this will be X-Rated and it will travel across the North East like a cloud drawing every Cena hating smark to see him get beat.

3. Look at the Last Man Standing, Ironman and I Quit matches where Cena has been "beaten to a bloody pulp" and still come out victorious. Cena thrives from being beaten down and overcoming the odds.

Look at Edge and Batista taking advantage of a beaten John Cena and him not beating the odds or every multi-man he has lost titles in.

Race was a great wrestler, but he wasn't John Cena. He would be a huge test for Cena, but he doesn't have the speed and agility along with the strength of John Cena in order to overcome him.

You're right, Race made his name more from word of mouth than weekly tv slots and was that big a draw that he was kept in the slot of representing the NWA across the US for 5 years. And if you are trying to tell me that Cena's speed and agility have not been greatly tested by Funk, then you have succeeded in insulting two NWA greats in one paragraph.

The only man you mentioned on that list that HHH truly had difficulty with was Batista. He defended and took the belt from Orton(No Mercy 2007, Wrestlemania 25 and more), defended and retained the belt against Edge(The Bash 2009),and even defeated Cena once at Night of Champions 2008. His title reign in 2008 was his second longest, so again, Im not sure how that's out of his prime.

And I recall quite a few losses for HHH during the prime you mentioned to all three men. Goldberg beat him on leg with Evolution interfering, HBK beat him in his first two matches back in 5 years, and the Rock beat him as well.

Simply put, the first Triple H always won the wars despite individual battle losses. The second Triple H was the opposite, he won the occasional battle but very few wars.

I'm not arguing that Race wasn't one of the all-time greats. But with his win over the Rock for his 13th title in the main event of Wrestlemania, I'm not sure if there's anyone in their prime who beats Cena.

And yet this was John coming off losses to Punk, Rock, Del Rio, Laurenitis and Ziggler.

As for the "beaten down" part, this is the same John Cena who handed Umaga only his 2nd loss in WWE(after handing him his first) in a Last Man Standing match with broken ribs. He then won the tag titles along with HBK against Edge and Orton the next night with those same injured ribs, scoring the decisive pinfall.

Umaga is no Terry Funk and a tag team match is nothing to a 3 Stages of Hell match with a man of Race's calibre.

I'm pretty sure Cena can handle Race after handling Funk. Cena moves on to face either Flair or Punk.

And I'm pretty sure that Edge and Batista picking Cena's bones after big match-ups gives Race a sure in to face Punk or Naitch.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Well I just OD'd on that last post by FF4L.

Bottom line, Cena's endurance really shouldn't be a question. He has been in gauntlets and ironman matches where multiple pinfalls in a short span of time occur. That is a good enough leveler with the 2 outta 3 falls experience of Harley. The King of Kansas was a regional star who made some overtures into the national field but really it was past his prime, and he really just wasn't that big of a deal. Was he a great NWA champion? I'll take your word, I have seen but a few of the man's matches. Arguably his most famous being, when he lost to Flair at the biggest stage of the time, Starrcade '83.

John Cena here.

 

[Bernkastel]

Since Cena is premiere good guy of the modern era, I wanted to see how Race - primarily a heel in his prime - stacked up against other well known huge faces. This is what I found...

Against Hulk Hogan - 0 wins and 27 losses
Against Antonio Inoki - 13 wins and 13 losses
Against Ricky Steamboat - 6 wins and 15 losses
Against Terry Funk - 3 wins and 30 losses
Against Dusty Rhodes - 7 wins and 11 losses
Against Giant Baba - 2 wins and 9 losses
Against Randy Savage - 0 wins and 12 losses
Against Ultimate Warrior - 0 wins and 17 losses

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=341&page=22&type=byOpponent

That tells us that Race lost to the top faces quite often. And that's exactly what Cena is; the most popular guy of the modern era. We've all seen Cena overcome insurmountable odds plenty of times before. And he's already taken down Terry Funk - a man that's beaten Race on multiple occasions.

For this match I could see Race taking the first fall, since Cena's apparently not very good with tables having lost the WWE title in one to a green Sheamus. Cena takes the street fight, thus leaving the cage match. Both men have experience...

Cena's record with steel cages is 4 wins and 1 loss not counting house shows and dark matches.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=6...&location=&arena=&showtype=&worker=&text=cage

Race's record with steel cages is 3 wins and 8 losses

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=3...&location=&arena=&showtype=&worker=&text=cage

Hmm...

It's very plausible to say that Cena could and would beat Race here. Race has fallen to big stars plenty of times before, and Cena is king of the hill right now. My vote goes to Cena.

 

[Jaffa]

So FitFinaly4life to surmise your points you are arguing the follow correct:
1. John Cena won't win because he lost an ECW match and a match in Chicago once.
2. John Cena is hated by the ECW fans but and they would love Harley Race but you argue that Race should go through because they need a heel in the finals.
3. Even though John Cena has won important matches in Chicago he lost one in 2011 therefore he loses this one and his victories don't count.
4. There is a chance that someone would interfere and cost Cena the match.
5. Now I am sort of confused by this point here because it isn't fully clear but are you arguing that Race is a bigger name than Cena?
6. You say we shouldn't compare wrestling eras between when Race was the man in the NWA and Cena is in WWE. You then contradict yourself by comparing the average lengths each man held the title even though back when Race was the man in the NWA the average title reign was much longer than in WWE when Cena held his first 12 world titles.

This wouldn't be an easy fight for John Cena however it would be a victory while I have respect for Race I can't see him beating Cena. Your arguments for Race haven't exactly convinced of this either it has convinced me however to vote for Cena more because you can't seem to find a real reason why Cena would lose.

 

[LSN80]

You do realize we're gonna get chastised for tl:dr posts at this rate:

Well, if that's the case, then I'll make this my last post on the subject. And I'm not going to go point for point or re-state again, just go over the points I mostly disagree with.

You're not the first but, from what I can ascertain, all Round 1 matches where over one night (8 bouts). One week later the 4 Round 2 matches where held and the venue semi finals a further week on and nothing seems to really dictate the venue final's relativity. However, KB did state that damage would start affecting the wrestlers after the gimmicks began and logic dictates that you will not have a card with 1 or 2 matches. Three high profile gimmick matches in one night would seem logical booking to me.

Well, that would make more since if the semi-finals and the finals of the region were on the same night, otherwise, you're going to have six high profile gimmick matches on one night in rounds 2 and 3, which is what you're supposing. If the venue semi-finals are held a week after, then here we are, a week later in the semi-finals, correct?

This whole tournament is speculation amigo and I speculate that an ECW bannered event will have an age restriction (so, no kiddies) and will attract every smark in the North East. Plus, and this isn't speculation, this is my own personal opinion - John got cheered against Brock because smarks hate the mercenary Lesnar more than Cena because he lives and breathes wrestling. Harley Race, as a guy who more than earned his stripes, would not face that backlash

.
I'm not sure that booing and cheering, or smarkdom, would determine this match. I'm pretty sure that it's, as I've stated before, the better man will. Cena's simply been on top for longer and has a winning record against every big name, especially heels, in the business, save perhaps CM Punk. And he's beaten CM Punk the last time they wrestled, clean as a whistle in the middle of the ring.

My speculation, as has been from the beginning, is that the crowd isn't going to be a hostile towards Cena now as they were in 2006. It was against their homegrown star in RVD, and Cena still hadn't developed the repetoire he has now in the ring, where he has earned plenty of respect as a much better wrestler. The hostility was "same old sh*t" and "You can't wrestle", chants you don't hear towards Cena anymore.

And again, with this not being Race's hometown, nor him being from ECW, the venue simply doesn't favor him. It's going to come down to the matches.

So, it wasn't one and done. They had both met in the same organisation - Cena knew exactly what he was facing!

That was a before-his-prime Cena in their first match, and this was a Lesnar who had just spent several years in the Octagon in the second, not the squared circle. And it was a Hardcore/Extreme Rules match, so different match type. So no, Cena didn't know exactly what he was getting, and he still won.

It was 8 years between matches, and the first with Cena in his prime, so it was one and done from our consideration.

Kind of like sqeezing through against Terry Funk in a bloody war only to face a relatively fresh Harley Race?

Not at all. Both Edge and Batista faced Cena immediately after he won Elimination Chamber matches, and that won't be the case here. Even if they are on the same night, which I still doubt, Race isn't going to be rushing the ring just as Cena is getting his hand raised to face him. It only makes sense that there would be time between matches, giving Cena time to regain his stamina and strength.

And it's not as if Race squashed Backlund. It was 44-24, which was a convincing win, but not a cakewalk. Cena's match was closer, but it's not as if Race wouldn't have had some damage done to him as well, something Batista and Edge didn't have. If Cena's not fresh, neither is Race.

He also loses matches through stupidity: Edge at HiaC.

???? He never lost to Edge at HIAC. Their only match inside a cage was won by Cena.

And I would counter that with an event designed to attract people that hate John Cena would create a combination of the ECW One Night Stand and MitB matches that he lost.

I still don't see how this would be a an event designed to attract people who hate John Cena. They hated him mostly in 2006 because he wasn't from their promotion and his opponent was, and his wrestling ability.

Fast forward 7 years, where Cena is very much in his prime after winning the Rumble, beating Ziggler in a steel cage, beating Punk for the right to face the Rock, and winning the WWE Title from Rock. Further, he's gone through an incredible number of gimmick matches between then and now, and has added alot to his arsenal.

So no opponent who's "their guy", and Cena's vast improvement(although he's never been poor) in the ring, and the crowd wouldn't be as hostile towards him as you'ld suppose.

this event is hardcore and in your face and every single smark in the place will already be burning that he has went over the Sainted Funk. This sets up a final that might even surpass MitB for antiCena feeling.

First, Funk was well past his prime when he wrestled in ECW, and second, Cena has won in hostile environments before. Remember Toronto, Unforgiven 2006, in a TLC match against Edge? In both Edge's match and hometown, Cena won. Heck, he was booed heavily at WM 22 against HHH in Chicago with a very smark crowd, and still made him tap out.

Cena's no stranger to facing hostile crowds- and winning.

What is the obsession with submission? It is only one of three ways to win the third bout... and of this list, I'd say that only Trips and HBK are on a level with Race and most have their victories over John too.

There's no obsession, it's just to drive home the fact that Cena has beaten all those men by catching them until they couldn't escape. It's a way both of the last two matches can be won, and in that sense, it gives an advatage to Cena, as he's both pinned and made to submit every big name, face and heel alike, that he's faced. Can the same be said for Race? No. That makes it advantage Cena.

And Cena's W/L record against HHH and HBK is advantage Cena, and he's won the bigger matches as well. He's faced both at WM in single's matches, once each, and made both tap out.

And you seem to have overlooked the guy he faced for the first time in an ECW environment - RVD. And what about the Rock?

RVD was an ECW guy, Race is not. And Cena won the higher stakes match. The first was bragging rights, the second, for the WWE Championship. WWE Championship > bragging rights.

Higher stakes? He lost to the Rock when it was meant to be a once only deal.

Meant to be, but it wasn't, and Cena won the higher stakes match.

And if you're going to use the prime argument against Brock for first time, surely the first time he met a prime Punk - he lost?

Actually, he beat Punk twice on Raw in fall of 2009, you know, the Punk was main eventing PPV's and winning or retaining his World Title? How could you argue that Punk wasn't in his prime then, when his 'epic' WWE Title reign in 2012 didn't involve many main events that didn't include John Cena or The Rock?

And if you are trying to tell me that Cena's speed and agility have not been greatly tested by Funk, then you have succeeded in insulting two NWA greats in one paragraph.

You said it, Funk's prime was when he was an NWA wrestler, having won their World Championship only once. He didn't join ECW until he was 50, and his only NWA title reign was ended by Race. I wasn't insulting Funk or Race, simply pointing out that Cena has more agility and speed then Funk or Race, is stronger then Funk, and at least equal to Race in strength.

Funk didn't become a truly "hardcore" wrestler until he was out of his prime, at age 50, so theoretically, he would have been wrestling a more traditional wrestling style in his hardcore match against Cena, which he rightfully lost.

And yes Race took the title from Funk, but he lost to Funk far more often then he won. He also lost to Dusty, Hogan, and Baba far more then he won, all major faces. And Cena is the face of the past 8 years, and just beat Funk, a guy who beat Race often when both were in their primes. I don't see where this lends an advantage to Race.

Simply put, the first Triple H always won the wars despite individual battle losses. The second Triple H was the opposite, he won the occasional battle but very few wars.

Randy Orton, Edge, and Jeff Hardy, all bonafide main eventers during the time of 'second HHH', would beg to differ.

Umaga is no Terry Funk and a tag team match is nothing to a 3 Stages of Hell match with a man of Race's calibre.

No but he was, at the time, a seemingly unbeatable monster, especially with Cena injured. And their LMS match was hellacious, and Cena, with broken ribs, won the match. I'm just saying that Cena is no stranger to facing the odds being against him, and still winning.

And I'm pretty sure that Edge and Batista picking Cena's bones after big match-ups gives Race a sure in

The flaw here is that Race wouldn't be picking Cena's bones. He's not cashing in MITB or a title shot immediately after Cena just went through an EC match. Match order would be strictly speculation, but it's not going to be Race rushing the ring right after Cena's beaten Funk and capatilizing. At worst for Race, Cena has a week to recover, which is more then enough time for Cena to rebound.

At best, Cena's going to have a breather and a few matches on the card between his match with Funk and his match with Race, so there's no picking of the bones here, or Cena coming off a six man match inside a steel structure. Cena will be far fresher then he was in either match, banged up but with a chance to catch his wind and get his resolve back.

And that's when Cena is at his most dangerous, which is why he would win this match.

to face Punk or Naitch.

As the voting rightfully shows, that's going to be Cena.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

To avoid taking up masses of screen space, I'll address each of my esteemed debaters in each of the spoilers - if it isn't addressed to you, feel free to peruse... if you've a good bit of time to kill

FAO PaperGhostopolis...

Spoiler

Well I just OD'd on that last post by FF4L.

Bottom line, Cena's endurance really shouldn't be a question. He has been in gauntlets and ironman matches where multiple pinfalls in a short span of time occur. That is a good enough leveler with the 2 outta 3 falls experience of Harley. The King of Kansas was a regional star who made some overtures into the national field but really it was past his prime, and he really just wasn't that big of a deal. Was he a great NWA champion? I'll take your word, I have seen but a few of the man's matches. Arguably his most famous being, when he lost to Flair at the biggest stage of the time, Starrcade '83.

John Cena here.

Regional star? The NWA was the biggest promotion in the US for all 5 years of his prime! Also, between the end of his first reign (1973) and the start of his second reign (1977) he won regional titles across the US and in Canada and Japan. He may have 'only' been champion for 5 years but he was a draw across the US, Canada and Japan for at least twice that period. I think you may be confusing Harley Race with Jerry Lawler.

As for losing to Flair at Starcade '83, of course that was his most famous - it was the main event of the precursor to PPV. There were no such events prior to this and this was effectively the end of Race's main event career and two years after he would have been regarded the NWA flagship guy ('77-'81 would be regarded as his prime).

FAO Echelon...

Spoiler

Since Cena is premiere good guy of the modern era, I wanted to see how Race - primarily a heel in his prime - stacked up against other well known huge faces. This is what I found...

Against Hulk Hogan - 0 wins and 27 losses
Against Antonio Inoki - 13 wins and 13 losses
Against Ricky Steamboat - 6 wins and 15 losses
Against Terry Funk - 3 wins and 30 losses
Against Dusty Rhodes - 7 wins and 11 losses
Against Giant Baba - 2 wins and 9 losses
Against Randy Savage - 0 wins and 12 losses
Against Ultimate Warrior - 0 wins and 17 losses

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=341&page=22&type=byOpponent

That tells us that Race lost to the top faces quite often. And that's exactly what Cena is; the most popular guy of the modern era. We've all seen Cena overcome insurmountable odds plenty of times before. And he's already taken down Terry Funk - a man that's beaten Race on multiple occasions.

For this match I could see Race taking the first fall, since Cena's apparently not very good with tables having lost the WWE title in one to a green Sheamus. Cena takes the street fight, thus leaving the cage match. Both men have experience...

Cena's record with steel cages is 4 wins and 1 loss not counting house shows and dark matches.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=6...&location=&arena=&showtype=&worker=&text=cage

Race's record with steel cages is 3 wins and 8 losses

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=3...&location=&arena=&showtype=&worker=&text=cage

Hmm...

It's very plausible to say that Cena could and would beat Race here. Race has fallen to big stars plenty of times before, and Cena is king of the hill right now. My vote goes to Cena.

Love this site by the way but I do have to say that them stats are deceiving because they cover his career not his prime. They also include tag, 1v2, 3v3, 4v4 and 5v5 and they don't state the nature of wins or loses so DQs and countouts (which wouldn't impact here) are not taken into account.

To put it another way, I could use the exact same site to point out that John Cena is equal pegging against such names as Rob Conway, Nunzio, Jonathan Coachman, William Regal & Great Khali; or has losing records against Bull Buchanan, Zack Ryder, Jeff Hardy, 7 losses and no wins against Torrie Wilsonlmao, Tajiri, Nova (9 losses, 0 wins), Matt Hardy, Billy Kidman, Undertaker, Billy Gunn, Chavo Guerrero, Shelton Benjamin, Brock Lesnar & Chris Benoit. But you and I both know that doesn't tell the whole story.

FAO Jaffa...

Spoiler

So FitFinaly4life to surmise your points you are arguing the follow correct:
1. John Cena won't win because he lost an ECW match and a match in Chicago once.

Well, mainly my point was that he lost when he was completely one man against everyone in the building.

2. John Cena is hated by the ECW fans but and they would love Harley Race but you argue that Race should go through because they need a heel in the finals.

Cena is hated by ECW fans, I doubt that you would argue this point. Also, he defeated Terry Funk in the last round who was idolized by the ECW fans.

Terry Funk was loved by ECW fans because they respected his legacy, ECW fans started the "Wooo" shout to chest shots in honor of Ric Flair. Do you think it unreasonable that they would love a hard as nails brawler like Race who was very much cut from the same cloth as Funk?

ECW fans where notorious for cheering who they wanted to cheer. The finals will not be under an ECW banner, so yes Race would operate heel in the finals.

3. Even though John Cena has won important matches in Chicago he lost one in 2011 therefore he loses this one and his victories don't count.

In the two matches that have been used as examples of Cena victories, he had support. My point is that when he didn't have a friend in the world, he lost.

4. There is a chance that someone would interfere and cost Cena the match.[/QUOTE]

RVD and Edge were not allies; yet Edge interfered costing Cena the match. If interference detracts from anyone, it's the do-gooder and despite the levels of venom that Cena has faced, he always plays the guy who is likely to get screwed.

5. Now I am sort of confused by this point here because it isn't fully clear but are you arguing that Race is a bigger name than Cena?
6. You say we shouldn't compare wrestling eras between when Race was the man in the NWA and Cena is in WWE. You then contradict yourself by comparing the average lengths each man held the title even though back when Race was the man in the NWA the average title reign was much longer than in WWE when Cena held his first 12 world titles.

Sorry, I can were this might confuse. The era thing you mention in point 6 is actually to do with point 5; the NWA in Race's era was more about live shows than TV and PPV whereas Cena operates in an environment today when the opposite is true. As such, I was saying it is hard to compare the two.

The comparison of reigns was to demonstrate that the assertion that Cena has been far more dominant in his prime than Race isn't supported by the reigns of their primes.

This wouldn't be an easy fight for John Cena however it would be a victory while I have respect for Race I can't see him beating Cena. Your arguments for Race haven't exactly convinced of this either it has convinced me however to vote for Cena more because you can't seem to find a real reason why Cena would lose.

My reason that Cena would lose is that he is taking on a man that prime vs prime he could very easily have won OR lost against but that I feel the damage impacted on both guys in the previous round would give Race the distinct edge in a match of this nature.

Spoiler

Well, if that's the case, then I'll make this my last post on the subject. And I'm not going to go point for point or re-state again, just go over the points I mostly disagree with.

Phew, I'm knackered!

Well, that would make more since if the semi-finals and the finals of the region were on the same night, otherwise, you're going to have six high profile gimmick matches on one night in rounds 2 and 3, which is what you're supposing. If the venue semi-finals are held a week after, then here we are, a week later in the semi-finals, correct?

Sorry buddy but you're confuddling me here (not a massive achievement, so don't feel too chuffed by that).

What I believe is that we had Round 1 over one night then a week break until we had Round 2 all in one night and then we had another week break until Round 3... this has all been documented by KlunderBunker and it is here the water becomes murky... there is nothing anywhere to give a definite answer as to when Round 4 occurs - some Round 4 matches state a week after Round 2 (which places it the same night as Round 3) but others state it a week after Round 1 (which would place it a week before Round 3). As there are 7 bouts on the final card, I maintain my belief that Rounds 3 and 4 would also be held on the same night because 6 fights is, if anything, quite light for a supershow.

I'm not sure that booing and cheering, or smarkdom, would determine this match. I'm pretty sure that it's, as I've stated before, the better man will. Cena's simply been on top for longer and has a winning record against every big name, especially heels, in the business, save perhaps CM Punk. And he's beaten CM Punk the last time they wrestled, clean as a whistle in the middle of the ring.

No, he is 71:25:10 against Punk so you're safe there (see my post for Echelon above).

And I'm saying that the better man in the circumstances would win. Harley Race was a major draw across the US and in Canada and Japan for twice the period he was NWA Champion, he is more than a big enough star to go over under any normal circumstance. The better man is subjective, by your definition here, we give the WZT to Lou Thesz now because he was the biggest name for the longest time?

My speculation, as has been from the beginning, is that the crowd isn't going to be a hostile towards Cena now as they were in 2006. It was against their homegrown star in RVD, and Cena still hadn't developed the repetoire he has now in the ring, where he has earned plenty of respect as a much better wrestler. The hostility was "same old sh*t" and "You can't wrestle", chants you don't hear towards Cena anymore.

Because the crowd is full of kids now, things are more cartoony now but I do believe that an opportunity to reproduce that atmosphere would be grasped with both hands and I do believe that this would be a disadvantage to John because it has been in the past.

And again, with this not being Race's hometown, nor him being from ECW, the venue simply doesn't favor him. It's going to come down to the matches.

I'm guessing we'll have to agree to disagree then because I believe in what is likely to be an adult male dominated crowd, the old school Race would be instantly taken to their hearts (much like Funk was).

That was a before-his-prime Cena in their first match, and this was a Lesnar who had just spent several years in the Octagon in the second, not the squared circle. And it was a Hardcore/Extreme Rules match, so different match type. So no, Cena didn't know exactly what he was getting, and he still won.

It was 8 years between matches, and the first with Cena in his prime, so it was one and done from our consideration.

Would it surprise you to hear that John Cena has stood across the ring from Brock Lesnar in 32 bouts with a record of 9 wins and 23 losses (it surprised me)? Lesnar was presented the same way in his first run as he is now, they just play up the UFC stuff now - which didn't exactly help people like Ken Shamrock in the past. I am certain he had a very good idea what he was facing and he knew that he was much better than he was when they first crossed paths.

Not at all. Both Edge and Batista faced Cena immediately after he won Elimination Chamber matches, and that won't be the case here. Even if they are on the same night, which I still doubt, Race isn't going to be rushing the ring just as Cena is getting his hand raised to face him. It only makes sense that there would be time between matches, giving Cena time to regain his stamina and strength.

And it's not as if Race squashed Backlund. It was 44-24, which was a convincing win, but not a cakewalk. Cena's match was closer, but it's not as if Race wouldn't have had some damage done to him as well, something Batista and Edge didn't have. If Cena's not fresh, neither is Race.

Yes, Edge and Batista's example are more extreme but the theory holds. Which would you prefer if you were Cena - a streetfight against the sadistic Terry Funk that you just scrape through or a reasonably comfortable standard match victory against the straight laced good guy Bob Backlund? Race, in comparison to Cena, is daisy fresh.

???? He never lost to Edge at HIAC. Their only match inside a cage was won by Cena.

Sorry mate, really don't know were I got that from, real brain-fart because I actually meant Sheamus defeating him in the tables match were he fell off the turnbuckle.

I still don't see how this would be a an event designed to attract people who hate John Cena. They hated him mostly in 2006 because he wasn't from their promotion and his opponent was, and his wrestling ability.

Fast forward 7 years, where Cena is very much in his prime after winning the Rumble, beating Ziggler in a steel cage, beating Punk for the right to face the Rock, and winning the WWE Title from Rock. Further, he's gone through an incredible number of gimmick matches between then and now, and has added alot to his arsenal.

So no opponent who's "their guy", and Cena's vast improvement(although he's never been poor) in the ring, and the crowd wouldn't be as hostile towards him as you'ld suppose.

I actually like Cena's ability, then and now. What I think wasn't appreciated was the Super-Cena shtick that does still occur at times. I've explained above my reasoning for expecting a hostile (if more pantomime these days) reaction.

First, Funk was well past his prime when he wrestled in ECW, and second, Cena has won in hostile environments before. Remember Toronto, Unforgiven 2006, in a TLC match against Edge? In both Edge's match and hometown, Cena won. Heck, he was booed heavily at WM 22 against HHH in Chicago with a very smark crowd, and still made him tap out.

Cena's no stranger to facing hostile crowds- and winning.

There were still dueling chants of "Let's go Cena!", "Cena sucks!" against Triple H though and, no offence to Edge, but I don't put him in Race's league - he was never number one in the WWe.

I have to go back to this, in the three instances were Cena couldn't buy a friend against three real top guys (Rock, Punk and {in the Hammerstein Ballroom at least} RVD) he lost.

There's no obsession, it's just to drive home the fact that Cena has beaten all those men by catching them until they couldn't escape. It's a way both of the last two matches can be won, and in that sense, it gives an advatage to Cena, as he's both pinned and made to submit every big name, face and heel alike, that he's faced. Can the same be said for Race? No. That makes it advantage Cena.

During his 5 years of dominance, it could be said for Race though!

And Cena's W/L record against HHH and HBK is advantage Cena, and he's won the bigger matches as well. He's faced both at WM in single's matches, once each, and made both tap out.

HBK definitely post prime and I maintain he wouldn't have had that victory over HHH in the early noughties.

RVD was an ECW guy, Race is not. And Cena won the higher stakes match. The first was bragging rights, the second, for the WWE Championship. WWE Championship > bragging rights.

Meant to be, but it wasn't, and Cena won the higher stakes match.

You can't be revisionist, "Once In A Lifetime" means the stakes were at the highest in the first match. The only way bragging rights will be obtained is if there is a rubber match (and I doubt that'll happen).

Actually, he beat Punk twice on Raw in fall of 2009, you know, the Punk was main eventing PPV's and winning or retaining his World Title? How could you argue that Punk wasn't in his prime then, when his 'epic' WWE Title reign in 2012 didn't involve many main events that didn't include John Cena or The Rock?

Maybe because he lost all the time? Including a three on one affair with Big Show! You and I both know that the WHC hasn't been regarded as the prestigious belt for several years now.

You said it, Funk's prime was when he was an NWA wrestler, having won their World Championship only once. He didn't join ECW until he was 50, and his only NWA title reign was ended by Race. I wasn't insulting Funk or Race, simply pointing out that Cena has more agility and speed then Funk or Race, is stronger then Funk, and at least equal to Race in strength.

Funk didn't become a truly "hardcore" wrestler until he was out of his prime, at age 50, so theoretically, he would have been wrestling a more traditional wrestling style in his hardcore match against Cena, which he rightfully lost.

That's a problem with fantasy, ECW love Terry Funk but his prime was before ECW... I've always went with the idea that the crowd is in on the concept, that they love Funk and that he has been dropped off at the arena in a DeLorean, that way he isn't weakened for the sake of weakening him.

And yes Race took the title from Funk, but he lost to Funk far more often then he won. He also lost to Dusty, Hogan, and Baba far more then he won, all major faces. And Cena is the face of the past 8 years, and just beat Funk, a guy who beat Race often when both were in their primes. I don't see where this lends an advantage to Race.

How do you know this? If Funk won over Race "in his prime" where is his reigns during those years? Methinks you've been using Echelon's link and, as I explain to Ech above that is far from painting the true picture.

Randy Orton, Edge, and Jeff Hardy, all bonafide main eventers during the time of 'second HHH', would beg to differ.

Hold on... Hardy? Hardy won the WHC in 2009 after getting turned back by HHH. Orton came out on top at NoC and Triple H (with HBK) turned his attention to Randy's stablemates instead. And Edge left with the WWe Title the last time he faced Trips.

No but he was, at the time, a seemingly unbeatable monster, especially with Cena injured. And their LMS match was hellacious, and Cena, with broken ribs, won the match. I'm just saying that Cena is no stranger to facing the odds being against him, and still winning.

He proves he's tough but it still doesn't compare to Funk and Race though. A fair comparison I could make with Cena age guys would be if he faced Edge in a streetfight and then had to face Triple H (who had faced Y2J in a standard match earlier) in a 3 stages of hell match, I would say that would be a fair comparison.

The flaw here is that Race wouldn't be picking Cena's bones. He's not cashing in MITB or a title shot immediately after Cena just went through an EC match. Match order would be strictly speculation, but it's not going to be Race rushing the ring right after Cena's beaten Funk and capatilizing. At worst for Race, Cena has a week to recover, which is more then enough time for Cena to rebound.

At best, Cena's going to have a breather and a few matches on the card between his match with Funk and his match with Race, so there's no picking of the bones here, or Cena coming off a six man match inside a steel structure. Cena will be far fresher then he was in either match, banged up but with a chance to catch his wind and get his resolve back.

And that's when Cena is at his most dangerous, which is why he would win this match.

I'm sorry but I just don't think the WZT needs filler; do you believe that there will be filler in the finals? Race isn't afraid of picking over bones, if John was unfortunate enough to be on after Race/ Backlund - you can guarantee that Race would be straight out challenging him and Cena would agree because that is his nature. Even if it was the other way around, Cena wouldn't do the same because that isn't in his nature and (as I've said) Race should recover quite quickly from a far from close standard match.

As the voting rightfully shows, that's going to be Cena.

You are correct my friend but I stand by my belief that this isn't the way it would pan out in actuality (after all, voting did once say that Hulk Hogan could not climb a ladder )

... maybe I should bring back the "My name's Finlay and I love to fight!" sig

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Remind me to rep you for finding new ways to post shit long posts FF4L!

Again I have to see your numbers as you call NWA the biggest promotion in the 70s. While I don't think you are talking outta your ass, I think WWWF was doing incredible gates and Andre and Bruno would beg to differ. And before you start gloating that Harley slammed Andre, I believe that match ended in a DQ. John Cena is the undisputed franchise of all pro-wrestling for a good 7 to 8 years now. He has had an amazing run, and really very VERY few are in his league, when it comes to staying-over power.

Also, didn't Harley lose to Archie Gouldie in Canada? He is not as invincible as you are making him, just so he can go toe-to-toe with Cena.

 

[Tastycles]

John Cena is arguably the greatest wrestler of all time. People will point to the figures posted by Austin and Hogan and call that ridiculous, but the fact is, the WWE has made more money in the 8 years Cena has been on top then at any other point in its entire history. There's something in that. Race was a great wrestler, but the popularity of wrestling in the 70s is probably its lowest ever ebb. People knew it wasn't real, but it still pretended to be. The stipulation with a guy like Cena isn't really that important, he over comes the odds and has never shown to have any particular weakness. For me, this has to be a Cena win.