Do You Think Heels Should Win Clean More Often?

[Iwantwrestlingback!]

Okay I thought of this a while back but here is the question again.

Do you think they should have heels win more without cheating?

My answer is yes I think a great wrestling show would have it so heels do win more without cheating. I think it would be a great wrestling show if you had it that anyone could lose on any given night in a great clean fight. I mean sure you are always gonna have guys that are at the top and don't lose alot like Cena. But I always have thought that wrestling would be a ton better if they made it so people like Cena could even lose sometimes fair and square. So have it that Del Rio could beat Cena fair and square sometime where Del Rio just gets a good reverse and gets Cena in the Armbar to make him tap (even though we know Cena is super powerful and won't tap). I mean I think it would make the show alot more interesting knowing even the top guy of the company could lose fair and square on any given night. IMO

What you guys think?

p.s. please no hating on someones opinion

 

[Shotlycrue]

If you don't want people to hate on your opinion then don't post your opinions on a forum that gives people the opportunity to do so. You post it here, some are gonna like it some are gonna hate it. Grow some thicker skin if you're gonna be here.

As for your opinion, I disagree w/ it. Pro wrestling 101 is that 99% of the time Faces win clean, Heels win by cheating. That way, when a heel does win clean (much the way Mark Henry has done lately) it's a big deal. If you have a guy like The Miz beating Cena or Orton clean it completely takes all credibility away from them. On top of that, winning by cheating or any other un-clean fashion adds more heat to the heel. If a heel just wins by out-wrestling a face he's given people no added reason to boo them.

 

[Iwantwrestlingback!]

Yes I see what your saying and when I say no hating I mean don't bash my opinion I don't care if you disagree with me just don't start saying im stupid and stuff like that...

Now onto what you said I agree that heels win by cheating to give heat to them but I think you should still have someone like Del Rio and not someone as big as mark henry who could win clean no matter what beat someone like Cena, Orton, or Punk clean by just having a good reversal and into a arm bar I mean I know you gotta have heels cheat but I just don't think they should make good heels that know how to wrestle cheat all the time.

 

[ErikExtradonaire]

Hey, I totally agree with you that heels should win fair and square sometimes!! This would make wrestling a LOT MORE UNPREDICTABLE!! Wrestling is so predictable now. I can predict the winners of all the RAW AND SMACKDOWN AND PPV Cards now!! It would be great to watch a wrestling event and not know what is going to happen! I believe it would also make it a little more realistic also. I mean, no one is buying that John Cena can beat all these people everytime he fights them!! Speaking of Cena, the fact that he has had the belt more times than superstars like the Rock, Austin, HBK, Undertaker,etc..is an ABSOLUTE JOKE!!! But, anyway my point about the thread is....sure, let the heels win clean occasionally....it would make things more interesting, fun, and unpredictable!!

 

[Mr Cold]

Thats just how WWE Rolls..It would be great to see an actuall wrestling match in WWE where its not predictable or ruined by cheating...It screws up the should when people interfere too.

 

[akrassikauda]

If you don't want people to hate on your opinion then don't post your opinions on a forum that gives people the opportunity to do so. You post it here, some are gonna like it some are gonna hate it. Grow some thicker skin if you're gonna be here.

As for your opinion, I disagree w/ it. Pro wrestling 101 is that 99% of the time Faces win clean, Heels win by cheating. That way, when a heel does win clean (much the way Mark Henry has done lately) it's a big deal. If you have a guy like The Miz beating Cena or Orton clean it completely takes all credibility away from them. On top of that, winning by cheating or any other un-clean fashion adds more heat to the heel. If a heel just wins by out-wrestling a face he's given people no added reason to boo them.

Preach On! because your right this is Pro wrestling 101. What people don't seem to realize is this Heel = Bad Guy which means he's suppose to cheat to win to garner heat. Imagine if Vicky never cheats for Dolph were would his heat be at or Nature Boy Ric Flair was never The Dirtiest Player In The Game. Kevin Nash vs Goldberg if Nash had ended the streak clean the whole world would have been pissed, Goldberg needed to lose in a fucked up fashion and the cattle prod did the trick.

How could any face overcome the odds against a heel who wins clean?

 

[Iwantwrestlingback!]

Like I said before I don't want them to just stop cheating but I would like to see them not cheat every single match. I know heels have to cheat but they don't have to cheat every single match. But this is your Opinion and Ill respect it.

 

[iwinulose]

heels are supposed to win by cheating to get them more heat. they want to get huge negative reactions. given from my own standpoint making a heel look weak takes away from them. it doesn't feel right. of course if a heel wins by not cheating it makes the face he is wrestling look weak. the baby faces are supposed to overcome the odds. the heels are supposed to cheat, thats just how it works.

 

[CabanaBoomBoom514]

From the way I see it, (any most other wrestling fans probably do as well) A Heel/Rule-breaker/Rudo is a wrestler who is despised, hate the fans and most importantly, has the ability to win within the rules but cuts corners by cheating.

Sure, it's OK for a heel to win clean once in a while against a guy lower in the card or to gain him some respect, but if it's done too many times he/she risks not being a believable heel. You can respect the heel, but he's really not supposed to be cheered more than the baby face or not cheered at all because he's a Villain.

The ONLY exception is Monster heels who when in a match is more powerful than most of his opponents and doesn't have to cheat other than the occasional choke or if he's a enforcer, attacks the baby face behind the ref's back.

If anyone wants to see a fair and square match, it's mostly be with two faces. if a heel doesn't cheat, his/her villainous character IMO kind of loses it's substance and at the end of the day, A wrestler selling his character is very important.

 

[tman2019]

I agree with you to a certain degree, but I also like the post about Pro Wrestling 101 being heels have to cheat. It's true, the heel's job is to make the face look good, it's hard for the heel to make the face look good if he's beating him clean. The only time that worked was with Angle (who was maybe the best heel ever) because the reason you hated him was because he was so good he could outwrestle anyone.

The key with Angle tho was that no one looked down on the babyface after the match because Angle was that good that he made the face he was wrestling look extremely good and so close to being as good as Angle but not quite as good. Honestly I don't think WWE has anyone on their roster who can wrestle like that.

It gets old I know, but that's the best and easiest way to build heat is to have them wrestle dirty. That way when the occasional time happens that a heel does win clean against a top face it is a big deal, not just another match. Main event heels win clean over mid-card/lower-card guys all the time and that's the only time a heel needs to win clean. Except when really pushing a heel at a major ppv that way it's a big deal when a heel wins clean.

 

[Iwantwrestlingback!]

I agree with heels shouldn't win fair and square all the time only thing I think is that the heels that are very good on mic and in the ring should win more without cheating I know you need to have heels like christian who can put on a good match needs to cheat to win matches to be a good heel but I just think heels like him and the miz need to win fair and square a little more often then they do.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Absolutely. More heels need to win cleanly. It does not need to happen that often, but the cowardly heels who retreat from a fight or retain via DQ's have been done too many times. People get sick of seeing the same old stuff all the time. Build up a dominant heel and have him get some clean victories to solidify him as a threat because then he will be taken more seriously. Henry's current push is a pretty good example of what can happen if a heel wins without cheating more often.

 

[Pedigree1]

Absoutely no way should heels win clean!! I mean WTF your a fucking heel cheat to win your the bad guy!! Pull the trunks hit him with a chair do what you gotta do to take home the winners share

 

[dansaun77]

another idiotic thread. Heels cheat to win, its part of the DNA make up of a heel. If they were going over clean all the time, fans will cheer him.

 

[ChiefAlot]

Hello Henry has been winning cleanly. The reason he is heal is what he does after the match. That angle is working great for Henry ATM. (Gig Em') So It all depends on how they push the heel. Or how he or she (with the addition of Kharma) creates hovoc after or during the match.

 

[BillAlfonso]

I think the question would be how would the heel look after the match? If they're going to look like shit then yeah, they don't need to cheat. If they're going to look like the match was no sweat then it get's a bit trickier. I think the heels that should win clean are the monster heels, I can conceive Mark Henry or The Big Show beating a guy like Cena or Orton clean and still looking good after the match. If someone like Ziggler were to beat them clean then I'd expect Ziggler to look like he'd been put through it himself.

 

[Jason08]

Well. I remember some of the heels who drew the most heat were the ones who won matches clean because you wanted to see them "get theirs" so bad. Often times they rub it into the audience's faces just how good they are and really draw heat. Owen Hart, that guy would get my blood boiling, but I don't remember him having to take too many cheap shots to make some of the crowd favs tap. Jericho, Mr.perfect, Ravishing Rick Rude, Kane, Edge were all great examples of guys who could win clean and draw just as much heat by the sheer cockiness of their victories. In my opinion, Del Rio and the miz are the kind of heels who should be booked as "dangerous" heels vs the "cowardly cheater" based on their move sets. Both that Owen Hart/Jericho type of swagger, clean wins would infuriate the audience more than seeing them cheat.

 

[Azane]

Monster heels win by destroying, (Big show, Kane, Undertaker or Henry)
Corwardly heels win underhandedly. (Miz, Jericho, Christian)
Corporate heels win with higher up power. (Rock, HHH, Austin w/ Vince)
Look at some of the greatest heels in history, Ted Dibiase would buy off his opponents or use his friends, The Rock always had the corporate ministry or some form backing him up, The nWo always had some fun rigging their matches (kayfabe rigging). It's just something that's proven to work. Heels winning cleanly makes them look less evil, and makes the face look weaker. When a heel wins dirty in the right way, you elevate the face, while also making the heel more hated. Remember, a heel's job is to be hated, even over winning.

As far as wrestling gets old, simple booking works the best for a general audience. Create grandiose storylines, and you make your audience feel stupid, create simpler things, and the audience gets bored.

 

[d3thRoW]

Absolutely OP. Definitely needs to happen more often. It's boring and predictable otherwise, not to mention completely illogical. If a wrestler is a face for any length of time and beats people clean, he shouldn't turn heal and all of a sudden has to cheat every time to win. He doesn't forget how to wrestle. They are supposedly professionals, and need to be credible at what they do on some level, right? For anybody that says "it's pro wrestling 101 so it has to be that way"...are you serious, bro? There are plenty of other ways to draw heat, but I'm not going to insult the rest of this forum and start making a list. It's lazy writing, and formulaic bs. It's this mentality that gives us these superhero type babyfaces that can't lose without getting hit with a truck first. It is possible to have a great heel/face match with a clean finish that doesn't necessarily make either look weak...I believe the audience is even capable of comprehending such things. Being a heel isn't just about tactics used in or out of the ring...it's attitude, toward the crowds, the officials, the rest of the locker room...and yes of course they will take a shortcut if it's available but not every time...

 

[HamSwissman]

They sure do. If there is anything that I agree with Vince Russo about, it is his opinion on the whole heel/face dynamic. IMO, as crazy as this may sound to most of you, the whole heel/face thing in pro wrestling needs to be relaxed a bit. It's outdated and it makes things a bit too boring and predictable. Like the multi-man tag matches that consist of a babyface team and a heel team. Those types of matches being booked just take me totally out of my suspended disbelief.

 

[123NewChamp]

I'ma say yeah to your question for the simple fact, it'll add to the credibility of the heel wrestlers, and also it will add more reality and integrity to the WWE Product. That was what was so unique about the WWF back in the day. We didn't see as much run-ins, interruptions, and sneak attacks as we do now. Although these nonchalant antics make us all hate Dolph Ziggler, Alberto Del-Rio and others, it'll take away from the actual great wrestler they are. Now don't get me wrong, both are great wrestlers, and Dolph got a great future in WWE but the thing is, when a face gets a title match and wins the title, they earn it. When the heels win their title, oh they cheated. But I'ma say yeah, cause not only does it adds credibility, but it also adds to the great wrestler that they are. It's not a gimmick push, nor is it kinda outrageous, but at the end of the day we can honestly say they earned the title.

 

[metalbass]

I believe the "heels have to cheat to win" rule has been outdated for sometime now. If you go back to the Attitude era and even further, there are many faces who cheated to win and they got received with cheers. The promos and out of ring actions for almost any wrestler can garnish more than enough heat that they don't need to cheat to look more credible as a heel. Hell, even the biggest heel in the business doesn't even wrestle (Vickie). IMO, a heel can use a clean win to even get more heat by using his mouth and outside antics.

 

[klunderbunker]

I remember reading a reply Lance Storm gave to this same question. He said something along the lines of "If a heel keeps winning cleanly, he's not going to be a heel for very long." That makes very logical sense. Heels are heels because they're bad guys. Bad guys are bad because they don't follow the rules. Cheating is what makes a heel a heel. If you stop cheating, then you stop being a heel and will become a good guy, which is the totally wrong way to go with it.

 

[alexikosalov]

Pro wrestling 101 is that 99% of the time Faces win clean, Heels win by cheating.

This is not true. It's true that heels cheat more often in the match, but they don't always cheat to win. Sheamus, Kane, Mark Henry, Undertaker, Jericho, HBK, HHH, Jake the Snake plenty of heels won clean for the majority of their careers. And that's just off top of my head.

That way, when a heel does win clean (much the way Mark Henry has done lately) it's a big deal.

Mark Henry always wins clean. He always has. It was a big deal because no one gave him a chance vs. Orton, not because he didn't cheat.

If you have a guy like The Miz beating Cena or Orton clean it completely takes all credibility away from them.

Opposed to making them look like total ADD riddled idiots, turning their backs on the opponent every single time instead turning their attention to whoever it is that is interfering this time? Call me crazy but I don't think the guy being booked as "Best wrestler in the World" should be the same guy easily distracted by a slow moving Nash lumbering down to the ring. I'd rather see CM Punk lose clean than to lose like that.

Your comment is incredibly short-sighted. If losing clean to a heel takes credibility away from the faces, what does beating the heels clean do for them? If going into the match, the idea that you are trying to create is "The only way this bad guy can win is if he cheats" then you are doing a very poor job building up your heels.

On top of that, winning by cheating or any other un-clean fashion adds more heat to the heel. If a heel just wins by out-wrestling a face he's given people no added reason to boo them.

Again, not true. There are many reasons to boo a heel, not just cheating to win. If that were true then all it would take to get over with the fans as a heel would be to cheat and we all know that isn't the case. Same as simply winning clean does not get you over as a face. Villains should be deeply layered, scorns of society, so different from what is considered the "norm" that you cannot help but boo them, whether is be the things they say, the way they look, or for the things they believe. Not just because they grab the tights.

Yes, heels should win clean more often. They win clean more often than people realize, but if it means less of the silly and inane "distracted" finishes, I say let them clean even more often.

 

[VencomHardcore]

I DISAGREE with ANY and EVERYONE who believes Pro Wrestling 101 is a heel cheating to win all the time. You obviously didn't grow up or live in the wrestling territory days and have not looked at history.

There were many heels that cheated sometimes but many did not cheat for every win. Ric Flair in NWA was a prime example. He went to territories and won clean. The " dirtiest player in the game " was a WCW construct. Not an accurate title to how he became great.

I watched Ric Flair beat top territory opponents fair and square during the territory days. He wan't the only one. The Andersons, Dirty Dick Murdoch and others who were mega heels did it the same way.

They beat jobbers to establish dominance. And when they had a match they won the majority clean. It was only when there was a major fued did you see them cheat to get a win but that was few and far between. I can count on my hand how many times Flair cheated to get a win during the territory era when involved in a fued.

I think many of the posters are using the current WWE model as the way a heel should be booked when that isn't set in stone. You only have to watch the AWA, Memphis Territory, The Old Florida Promotion and Mid -Atlantic wrestling to know how they booked heels and many of those heels are now considered legends.

The difference is that fans are so used to seeing weak heels that they think that is how its done when back in the day is was different. And the cheating heel was used to prolong a major fued when a star was brought in to pop a promotion.

A perfect example is the Norvel Austin vs Adrian Street. They had him cheat to build norvel up. Once he was over, Norvel won fair and square and Adrian won the belt back clean.

WWE does need to go back to the old formula. It created legends.