Do you guys questioning WWE wrestlers' ring work even have a clue what you're saying?

[Ambiguous Turd]

I've seen this done for years and still see it on a daily basis. Garbage. Absolute utter garbage from so many posters out there.



***************************************************************************************


"Kofi isn't in the Main Event because his ring work isn't where it needs to be. He doesn't sell enough."

"The Miz is an okay worker. But he doesn't demonstrate the best timing. He's constantly off by half a step."

"John Cena only has a limited moveset. He still only has 5 moves."

"Chris Jericho exhibits exceptional ring psychology ... better than anyone else on the roster!"

"Cody Rhodes simply doesn't do a believable job in his matches."

"Randy Orton is too concerned with psychology in the ring, and his pacing suffers as a result."

"Ted Dibiase needs work with his "storytelling" in the ring."

"Shelton Benjamin is the best wrestler out there and should be pushed to the moon. He's a great technical wrestler .... I just can't elaborate on what makes him so great a technical wrestler."


***************************************************************************************



And people say that I nitpick at WWE Creative with their lack of character depth, angles, and storylines .... What do you call this?

To make matters even worse, I am utterly convinced that more than half of you in the IWC that spew this stuff don't even have the foggiest clue what you're talking about. You use terminology from seeing others say it on the Internet and in Discussion Forums, and then you simply repeat what you see others say. Why? I suppose to make yourselves sound like you at least are somewhat intelligent on what you're critiquing.

What do I say? I really wouldn't be as concerned about what you say, had WWE seemingly taken the garbage that has been spewed by those that know not what they say quite literally and instead decided to focus so much time on ring work and just ring work.

As a result of this bullshit nitpicking about people's ring work, WWE has decided to make ring work THE largest factor in those who get to keep their jobs and those that do not.

People who may have an interesting character and good look to them, that otherwise may have kept their jobs, now get the ax because YOU have helped contribute in setting the bar so high for ring work .... when in reality, the casual fan doesn't even pay attention or provide a critical eye to anything at all that you are making out to be an issue.

As a result, I am completely convinced that we have missed out these past several years on some outstanding young talents that had potential to entertain the audience like no tomorrow, just because IWC members of the WWE Universe want to sound like they know what they are talking about by attempting to dissect one's ring work.

Over the years, Vince wants everyone trained in the ring. He wants Divas not just trained in taking bumps. That isn't good enough. Instead they have to wrestle, or they aren't wanted. Vickie Guerrero was even being pressured to wrestle because of WWE's mentality that everyone must wrestle, and I am completely convinced that this led to her departure the first time. Somehow, though, they got her back.

But those who can be construed as advisers over the years like Armando Estrada ... they all have to know how to wrestle, as they will inevitably be placed into several matches regularly. This wasn't necessarily a requirement in years past, because people just had to know how to bump. But if you have potential to be a great manager these days, and could be the best person in the world on the mic .... but unless you can wrestle a 4 star match, you aren't wanted on the roster.



***************************************************************************************



I think this obsession with trying to analyze ring work to the degree that the IWC has, has been an extreme detriment to the business over the years. Because I think WWE sees what a lot of people on the Internet are saying and they interpret in their minds that this is "what fans are concentrating on these days and what they want to see. They want ring work to be a prime focus."

And hey, I have no problem with emphasizing ring work. However it certainly isn't the end-all, be-all that many fans on the Internet have made it out to be, and in turn, that now WWE has made it out to be.

And what is even more enraging is as I stated numerous times, I am utterly convinced that half the people in the IWC that attempt to critique ring work are merely repeating talking points they heard another poster say.



***************************************************************************************


You want to be taken seriously from this point forward as someone who knows what they are talking about, then I issue you two challenges.

1) Instead of using talking points about how someone's ring work needs improvement, go ahead and critique what is wrong AND ALSO reference points in the matches to demonstrate your point. Post a You Tube video and mention the specific part in the video to show us what you are talking about. That gives us a better idea what you are talking about by seeing it visually, and in turn, may give you some more credibility.


2) If you think that someone is not where they should be with their ring work, explain to us if you think the casual fan even cares about what you're critiquing and if it even matters in the big picture. Why or Why not?



With that being said, I am opening up the floor to your comments on whether you agree or disagree with anything, if you think people are too critical of ring work or if you think people are on par with their critiques.

Those that do critique ring work regularly, and you know who you are, I would especially like to see your participation in this thread.

 

[jrichardson25]

I completely agree with you on this one. I am a big Cena fan and hate the fact that people ALWAYS state he only has five moves. That can't be farther from the truth. You have to look in his past at his Prototype gimmick. He does know a lot of moves or he would not be a former 7 time World Champ. If I ever have an issue with a wrestler's specific move I'd definitely show a clip.

To answer your couple of questions:
1) By all means we have the technology to link youtube videos and everything wwe can be found on youtube with some exceptions of course. That could be easily the start of the debate and create a decent thread instead of a ranting thread.

2)The casual fan would not notice the flaws in the ring work. If it is a huge botch they would notice. The hardcore fans (as I'm sure most of the people reading and replying to this thread are) know how well certain people work and put on their matches. If they see a flaw that is minuscule they will exploit it. (reference HBK v. Undertaker WM25, Snuka as cameraman not catching Taker right.) In the scope of things one small botch won't ruin a great match. As a casual fan they would not have noticed it and thought nothing of it.

To reiterate I can completely agree with what you're saying.

 

[axl626]

Do you have any clue what you're talking about? Some people like different styles. For example, I think Cody Rhodes is better than Ted Dibiase. That's just my preference. It's also my preference that I can't stand a Cena match as it's always the same damn thing over, and over, and over again.

Some guys are simply better but that's usually do to them having experience in a WWE environment. But I barely watch WWE as it is unless it's a Punk or Christian match so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Toroc102]

I agree with you somewhat, in that a lot of times it doesn't seem like people actually know what they're talking about when they talk about the actual wrestling aspect of the WWE. For the people that complain about Cena's matches being the same all the time, I have to say, most wrestlers wrestle the same way all the time. It's called a moveset and everybody has one, Orton doesn't pull new moves out of his ass on the regular either, and neither does Evan Bourne for that matter. Austin basically just brawled his way through matches, but he could really sell it, his facial expressions alone could sell a whole match.

BUT I really don't think that we have that much influence on that part of the WWE as you think we do. I mean if that we're true then why would Vince just listen to that when we have bigger complaints on just about everything else in the WWE. For every person that thinks a wrestler sucks there seems to be atleast the same amount of people that think they are ok, but everyone agrees that the Tag-Division sucks, Mid-Card sucks, PG sucks etc.

Also, I don't see much difference between the people that are getting axed and the ones that aren't. You still have many different types of good wrestlers getting fired and some stiffs getting fired, make me a list and I guarantee that there are many more good wresters on it then stiffs.

WWE's mentality that everyone must wrestle is different from believing everyone must wrestle well, especially as far as the Diva's Division is concerned, because obviously, watching most Diva's wrestle is like watching a match from Tough Enough every week. His mentality that everyone must wrestle stems from a money making pov, but I don't think the IWC is responsible for that, like I said, why would Vince listen to only one aspect of the IWC and completely ignore others like our want for more non-wrestling personalities such as managers and valets.

I don't believe Armando Estrada's problem as a manager was Vince wanting him to know how to wrestle, he was already a wrestler in OVW before that, I'm sure he could have held his own in the ring. His problem as a manager was that he was a pretty big guy, I don't think managing works if it looks like you can get in the ring and kick some ass yourself. I don't get why they let him go either though, but that seems more like the exception than the rule to me, a truly baffling move since he seemed to have a good package that the WWE is normally receptive to.

So while I agree that most of the IWC usually just mimic and adapt phrases and mentality's about a wrestler's wrestling abilities(and other aspects as well), I don't think its had much of an effect on the way Vince does things.

 

[The_Instant_Classic]

Cena may have more than 5 moves but he doesn't use any of them. wwe always makes him use the main 5 that he has and we see them EVERY match he has. That combined with his stale in ring personality which never changes is why last night people were chanting "CENA SUCKS!" and that is actually the only one of the complaints on the list i agree with. honestly? who pays attention to ring psychology and then complains about it??? when i watch a match i pay attention to the moves, the selling, and the mic work. As for the comment about firing people based on move set/ring work. don't you think wwe would have made Cena us more moves in his matches if it was all about that? IMO if it was based on move set Cena would probably not even made it to the wwe.

 

[D-Man]

You want to be taken seriously from this point forward as someone who knows what they are talking about, then I issue you two challenges.

1) Instead of using talking points about how someone's ring work needs improvement, go ahead and critique what is wrong AND ALSO reference points in the matches to demonstrate your point. Post a You Tube video and mention the specific part in the video to show us what you are talking about. That gives us a better idea what you are talking about by seeing it visually, and in turn, may give you some more credibility.


2) If you think that someone is not where they should be with their ring work, explain to us if you think the casual fan even cares about what you're critiquing and if it even matters in the big picture. Why or Why not?



With that being said, I am opening up the floor to your comments on whether you agree or disagree with anything, if you think people are too critical of ring work or if you think people are on par with their critiques.

Those that do critique ring work regularly, and you know who you are, I would especially like to see your participation in this thread.

Honestly Sid, I don't think you're going to hear jack shit from anyone. why, you ask? Because your one million percent right. The IWC talks out of their asses, plain and simple.

Obviously, the mere though of the subject of this thread pisses me off to no end. Therefore, for the readers that are not guilty of this bullshit, I apologize. But for the rest of you, feel free to keep reading.

I was an independent professional wrestler (on and off) for close to 12 years. In that time, I learned techniques from different schools, had my share of 'ring-psychology', took my bruises and ate my bumps. But even with all of that experience, I won't sit here and critique the ring work of the best professional wrestlers in the world that exist in TNA, ROH and the WWE. The reason is because I wouldn't have the slightest clue as to what I were talking about. The IWC should take a lesson from that.

"Easier said than done."​

Give that phrase a listen a few times, IWC. This is the most basic reply I can give all of you when you run your mouths with the stupidity that Sidious was kind enough to quote for all of us in his original post. None of you have a fucking clue as to how difficult the sport of professional wrestling really is. In a wrestling ring, minutes seem like HOURS. It's painful, tiresome, difficult, requires tons of concentration, coordination, athleticism, intelligence, timing, and personality. Cutting live promos is one of the most difficult aspects of the game. Getting noticed by a large organization (such as the WWE) is damn near impossible. But these men and women have done it all, and you all critique them while you play Dungeons and Dragons and jerk-off to Hentai porn when the last athletic thing you did was grab a Hot Pocket from the freezer.

This is why when you see my posts on this website, I stay passionate, fact-filled, and I speak from true experience. You should all try the same thing.

Here's a tip, IWC: Don't speak like you know what you're talking about. Actually know what you're talking about before you speak. - The D-Man

 

[Razor]

1) Instead of using talking points about how someone's ring work needs improvement, go ahead and critique what is wrong AND ALSO reference points in the matches to demonstrate your point. Post a You Tube video and mention the specific part in the video to show us what you are talking about. That gives us a better idea what you are talking about by seeing it visually, and in turn, may give you some more credibility.

But Sid. That would require people to actually look shit up on Youtube. I mean, it's much easier to shit on matches and sound stupid. Why should we go to Youtube and actually have to back up what we say? Nazi mod.

2) If you think that someone is not where they should be with their ring work, explain to us if you think the casual fan even cares about what you're critiquing and if it even matters in the big picture. Why or Why not?

Benjamin does nothing but jump really high every now and then. Therefore, the crowd doesn't care. Therefore, the casual fan doesn't care. Therefore, the IWC smark that loves Benjamin should be sucking Cena's dick. Why? He makes the millions of dollars for the WWE that allow them to pay Benjamin to waste space on ECW.

With that being said, I am opening up the floor to your comments on whether you agree or disagree with anything, if you think people are too critical of ring work or if you think people are on par with their critiques.

Those that do critique ring work regularly, and you know who you are, I would especially like to see your participation in this thread.

I don't really, seriously critique ring work. I mean, I do when I'm taking the shit out of someone. Or, let's talk about the Joe/Kobashi match I reviewed for Xfear one day. I completely shit on Joe's selling, because I felt at times Joe undersold Kobashi's chops and at other times Joe oversold the chops. This is completely visible when you watch the match and see Joe no selling some chops, while wiggling around in pain because he got a random chop to the head. I mean, come the fuck on.

But normally, I only critique a wrestler on how much he gets the fans to care. I don't care if Miz is half a step off, or if Cena only does 5 moves in a match. For one thing, you can say any wrestler looks like he's half a step off. Another thing, Cena is just like any other main event star. They do 5 basic moves to end the match. Sorry.

I only critique a wrestler on how much he gets the fans to care because that's what a wrestler is supposed to do. It doesn't matter if you can chain wrestle for 20 minutes, if the WWE fans don't care, then you're a horrible match for the company. That's what people who sing the praises of McGuinness or the latest ROH champion have to realize. Sure, ROH fans love the wrestling going on. But would the fans of the WWE honestly like that same type of wrestling? I would bet no, they wouldn't. Chain wrestling is fine when you're in ROH, that's what gets the ROH crowd going. Hell, you could probably even get a marginal success in TNA doing that. But WWE? They care about the story, and if you can pull your character off right. Take it from the fans who have cheered a Dead Man for 20 years.

To put it simply, fuck ring talent. Fuck 30 minutes of head locks and slams because "Look! That's real wrestling!" Fuck 5 star, 720 degree shooting star slams. Fuck moonsaults that lead into handspring chair dives that transition into a Scorpion Deathlock. If the wrestler can't make the crowd care about him through his promos, his look, and his telling of a legitimate story, then he's a failure. Everyone can cry about Cena not having the "wrestling talent" of Benjamin, or not having the move list of Bourne, but there's a big difference. Cena makes people care. That is what pro-wrestling is about. And that's the only thing I critique wrestlers on

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

I've seen this done for years and still see it on a daily basis. Garbage. Absolute utter garbage from so many posters out there.



***************************************************************************************


"Kofi isn't in the Main Event because his ring work isn't where it needs to be. He doesn't sell enough."

"The Miz is an okay worker. But he doesn't demonstrate the best timing. He's constantly off by half a step."

"John Cena only has a limited moveset. He still only has 5 moves."

"Chris Jericho exhibits exceptional ring psychology ... better than anyone else on the roster!"

"Cody Rhodes simply doesn't do a believable job in his matches."

"Randy Orton is too concerned with psychology in the ring, and his pacing suffers as a result."


***************************************************************************************



And people say that I nitpick at WWE Creative with their lack of character depth, angles, and storylines .... What do you call this?

To make matters even worst, I am utterly convinced that more than half of you in the IWC that spew this stuff don't even have the foggiest clue what you're talking about. You use terminology from seeing others say it on the Internet and in Discussion Forums, and then you simply repeat what you see others say. Why? I suppose to make yourselves sound like you have at least sound somewhat intelligent on what you're critiquing.

What do I say? I really wouldn't be as concerned about what you say, had WWE seemingly taken the garbage that has been spewed by those that know not what they say quite literally and instead decided to focus so much time on ring work and just ring work.

As a result of this bullshit nitpicking about people's ring work, WWE has decided to make ring work THE largest factor in those who get to keep their jobs and those that do not.

People who may have an interesting character and good look to them, that otherwise may have kept their jobs, now get the ax because YOU have helped contribute in setting the bar so high for ring work .... when in reality, the casual fan doesn't even pay attention or provide a critical eye to anything at all that you are making out to be an issue.

As a result, I am completely convinced that we have missed out these past several years on some outstanding young talents that had potential to entertain the audience like no tomorrow, just because IWC members of the WWE Universe want to sound like they know what they are talking about by attempting to dissect one's ring work.

Over the years, Vince wants everyone trained in the ring. He wants Divas not just trained in taking bumps. That isn't good enough. Instead they have to wrestle, or they aren't wanted. Vickie Guerrero was even being pressured to wrestle because of WWE's mentality that everyone must wrestle, and I am completely convinced that this led to her departure the first time. Somehow, though, they got her back.

But those who can be construed as advisers over the years like Armando Estrada ... they all have to know how to wrestle, as they will inevitably be placed into several matches regularly. This wasn't necessarily a requirement in years past, because people just had to know how to bump. But if you have potential to be a great manager these days, and could be the best person in the world on the mic .... but unless you can wrestle a 4 star match, you aren't wanted on the roster.



***************************************************************************************



I think this obsession with trying to analyze ring work to the degree that the IWC has, has been an extreme detriment to the business over the years. Because I think WWE sees what a lot of people on the Internet are saying and they interpret in their minds that this is "what fans are concentrating on these days and what they want to see. They want ring work to be a prime focus."

And hey, I have no problem with emphasizing ring work. However it certainly isn't the end-all, be-all that many fans on the Internet have made it out to be, and in turn, that now WWE has made it out to be.

And what is even more enraging is as I stated numerous times, I am utterly convinced that half the people in the IWC that attempt to critique ring work are merely repeating talking points they heard another poster say.



***************************************************************************************


You want to be taken seriously from this point forward as someone who knows what they are talking about, then I issue you two challenges.

1) Instead of using talking points about how someone's ring work needs improvement, go ahead and critique what is wrong AND ALSO reference points in the matches to demonstrate your point. Post a You Tube video and mention the specific part in the video to show us what you are talking about. That gives us a better idea what you are talking about by seeing it visually, and in turn, may give you some more credibility.


2) If you think that someone is not where they should be with their ring work, explain to us if you think the casual fan even cares about what you're critiquing and if it even matters in the big picture. Why or Why not?



With that being said, I am opening up the floor to your comments on whether you agree or disagree with anything, if you think people are too critical of ring work or if you think people are on par with their critiques.

Those that do critique ring work regularly, and you know who you are, I would especially like to see your participation in this thread.

Great point Lord Sidious,

It's too bad we don't have more posters like you, now I don't want to insult other fans or even sell myself short as a fan, but despite the fact that all of us here watch wrestling, that doesn't mean that we understand the inner workings of the business completely.

Therefore, when we do criticize these workers, it's sometimes not fair to do so, because after all we are just fans and not professionals actually performing the moves these guys work to perfect.

But just the same, I like the constructive nature of your post, it's a lot better than the garbage I typically see on here, and I am sorry if I offend anyone because it seems I have been controversial as of late on this forum. Anyhow, this is a constructive post and this is what we should really see on these forums instead of the close minded negativity that is par for the course from many folks.

However, I will offer my two cents in regards to what I think good ring work actually means. Whether you know only one move or a thousand of them, as long as you are safe in the ring and aren't a risk to yourself or someone else's health that is above and beyond the most important rule to have in good ring work in my view. In that respect if you have a limited range of moves, but you know that range well and you are not a hazard to anyone in that ring, that in my mind shows you know how to work.

Another good factor in ring work is an issue on certain but not all occasions is whether you are over or not. Sometimes the most talented people can make it to the big time but never stick around for the long term, being able to use your talent to connect with the crowd and be successful is another facet of talent all within itself.

I think sometimes we tend to be so blinded my our own personal opinions that we tend to kick critical thinking to the curb and not realize that despite what we don't like about certain performers other people absolutely love.

After reading some of Sidious' fine examples of such opinion, the two that stick out the most are obviously going to be from the two biggest stars in this business, John Cena and Randy Orton.

John Cena's set of five moves, while we'll never mistake him for a Bret Hart style worker, Cena is an excellent example of someone who works in a limited range of moves and obviously does those moves well enough to endear himself to the majority of the people watching (don't let the boos fool you, if people really hated him that much, he'd be long gone by now). On top of all that his charisma is a vital part of his talents as a performer. Personally, I don't like the guy's gimmick and he does nothing to inspire me but I have to admit that he's got that IT factor, I'll never sell his appeal short because he truly is an icon in the making. Whether most people want to admit it or not, barring all personal opinions aside one can't dismiss the man's impact. Touching back on personality/charisma, the smarks tend to sell charisma short and make it look like it's a bad thing, but while it's a different kind of skill compared to in-ring athleticism, it's an important skill to have, because let's face it, we're well past the era where wrestling was portrayed as being "legit" and technical ability was favored over personality. I will never knock the technical wrestlers and the amazing in ring workers that are out there, but that style of wrestling doesn't translate as well to American audiences. We are just accustomed to having the larger than life figures, plain and simple.

Now getting to Randy Orton's ring psychology. Personally, Orton is another guy I am not a fan of, and I just can't get into his whole act. I respect his abilities though too, it's possible that his pacing might take a backseat to his in ring demeanor, but the man has gotten results. One of the youngest superstars to be pushed to the main event scene some several years ago and even with the status of being a third generation star, he still had to work hard at some point. After all, just because his father and grandfather were successful wrestlers didn't mean he was going to be a sure thing. I mean just look at David Sammartino and Scott Putski both sons of wrestling stars and their careers were no where near as successful. From the matches I have seen of Orton, in my personal opinion I think his in ring work is fine, he goes in there gets the people to hate him and he sells his persona very well, at least to me. I am not a fan of his lack of emotion and monotone voice but I think that's why he is successful because he's a stark contrast to your colorful characters like John Cena. I think the guy tells just as good a story as John Cena in the ring and though I have tired of seeing them wrestle, I have to concede and say they both know how to put on a show.

So in closing, both of these men go in there and they do a good job of telling their story to the crowd, obviously they must be doing something right because they are still main eventing RAWs and PPVs on a consistent basis. Even if it is ad nauseum, and from what I have seen and heard they have never seriously injured a fellow performer, and since they are over with the crowd, they are more or less doing their jobs correctly as in ring workers. But again this is all just my opinion and I am not out there to bury anyone else's points, and on top of all that these are two guys I don't even really care for but I can't deny their ability.

Once again Sidious, thank you for opening up a very interesting and engaging thread, it definitely trumps the senseless crap we often see on the net!

Best,

SirJoseOle

 

[maar130]

Well Sidious, what was the rant all about?

Seriously first you criticize the company and all of the sudden you blame the IWC like Vince really care of what that small percentage of the audience really thinks. If that were true, Cena would be a heel right now and Gail Kim would be like 4 times women´s champion.

4 stars matches? well it happens tops once every two months on Raw, while Smackdown is more about wrestling, not even the top players on Raw gives you a 4 star match at all, to their own defense is hard when you only get like 5 minutes to do it and DX - WWEShop.com takes 10 minutes.

If all would be about ring work Niggel Macguiness won't be called Desmond Wolve right now, yeah he has a small health problem but so does MVP. And if that were true, Vince probably would have given Kurt Angle a way lighter schedule or would have made everything possible to keep him. Some might say he is a broken self of what he once was but this "broken" Angle can work matches that some wrestlers can only dream about.

Yes I give you that the crap of the being half step off is way to critical, who ever said that should really back up with a video or something, I find The Miz entertaining and the guy knows how to make a match interesting, I mean I am not going to say he tells a story on every match but at least I don't want to flip the channel during his matches and I want to see the result.

Your point about the divas is really amazing, did you even watched Raw last night? The two matches can show you that the women who can actually wrestle like Katie Lea are only used as jobbers (at least she is back on TV) and those who are still learning but can actually wrestle only the basics like Eve Torres (who to her credit has willingness to learn) gets the best of it. The perfect example of the lack of ring work is Raw's current women's division, and one can't really blame them that much since most of the time they are on tag matches that last only like 2 minutes.

It is like this, Maryse ring work is good if you rate that most of her matches you can disamble them on three stages, 1.- Maryse getting her business handled to her. 2.- Maryse trips the good girl and hits her DDT or roll up. 3.- Maryse poses. That does not sound like a lot of ring work or deep. Maybe you will see a couple of more moves at the PPV but that is it.

On the selling stuff, to sell is really simple, that is how good or how bad you made a move or beating look or the story for that matter. Like this, Chris Benoit was a Hell of at selling stuff, everytime someone did something to him it looked real, or over sell like when Hogan faced Shawn Michaels at Summerslam, I mean Hogan was supposed to look powerfull but Shawn kept bumping and bouncing like crazy, thatmade it look completely unreal and was not even funny.

On the John Cena's arguement. Well I hate that one because we all know he has more than 5 moves, but what I hate more is that is comming back to be true at some point and that also has to do with the way he sells, I mean during a match he can sell the beating he is getting and he will make you believe he is going to be defeated, which is a good selling, but all of the sudden all the work he did before goes to Hell because he bounces with 2 or 3 shoulder tackles, applies the Protoplex (to which everyone sells the same, falling the puch the same way all the time that it seems like you are doing a combo in a video game or something), hits the 5 knuckle shuffle, pums his tennis shhoes, goes for the AA, opponent counters but after a second counter Cena gets the AA and it is done, or when he wants to add trill to it instead of the AA or after it he gets the STF and the mach is done, with out seemed hurt at all, at least The Undertaker after a tough match seems like he has been through Hell, and his character is not supposed to sell crap.

On the Vicky Guerrero thing, she learned to take bumps but never was she really required to wrestle, as she is not now.

What I am saying is that blaiming the IWC that Vince wants everyone on the WWE to have a great in ring work is not realistic since from what you can actually watch on TV on Monday, you can see he is not too concerned about that, since regular fans (the ones that goes to house shows, to Raw live, that believe that there could be a title change at a house show) are not to concerned about that. If Vince or the fans were MS Wrestlemania A. K. A. Santino would be out of a job right now.

 

[classicviolence]

People question WWE wrestlers in ring work, because WWE is the top Pro Wrestling Company in the world. But as far as in ring work is concerend they are in the top 3 out of all of the pro wrestling companies.

The IWC watches all types of pro wrestling from European, Lucha, Puroresu and NA style of pro wrestling. So, in essence since the WWE is the top company; they should produce the best product compared to other leagues but this is not the case at all.

WWE instead has a very dry formula that the corporate brass enforces on the talent. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels was a great match, because they did away with normal WWE style that the company usually produces. That match came off like a Puroresu style match which worked extremely well.

With that being said the talent in WWE, have to conform to the WWE style of wrestling and some guys get it and look spectacular or they cannot adapt and there careers suffer because of this. I know some of you are going to say, "Vince is protecting the wrestlers" and I have no real problem with that. However, if you have guys that specialize in different styles they should exploit that talent to see if that style gets that talent over.

Example take Carlito, He has a pretty distinctive style of wrestling. Upon his debut he wrestled a very safe unspectacular style that WWE wants to see from the talent. Over the course of his tenure he was allowed to show his talents and actually makes his matches exciting. Same can be said about a number of talents.

To summarize, WWE has its hands to tight around the talent and product. They should let that talent cut loose and get themselves over. Alot of guys are suffering in WWE because they have too many scripted promos and scripted matches.

Social Darwinism should be how WWE operates with the talent, but they wont.

 

[Scorpio8975]

If I could offer a current worker's prospective here for a sec. I honestly believe that you can't have a fully knowledgable opinion about this business, what goes one in it and what needs to happen with it until you've been in a locker room and you've been on the road and more importantly been trained in the art that is professional wrestling. A lot of the IWC consist of just marks and people who will probably never get in the ring, and granted everyone has their role in this business as the fans are just as much a part of it as we the workers are.


However, and I think this of all critics be it from all aspects of life, They don't fully know what they are talking about until they're experienced it until they've stood in that ring and worked a match. I've heard the IWC say some stupid......STUPID things in the past and be completely and totally ignorant with their "opinions" when they only think they know what they are talking about. When they don't know the first thing that goes into a wrestling match much less an entire wrestling show. Espescially some of these so called "wrestling reporters" and "news sites". Wrestlezone is one of the legit sites out there because they get opinions from people who have been in the business for a number of years, but some sites are run by IWC marks and are crap. But cak to the IWC, a lot of workers are out there to appease only that audience and they aren't successful I can name a few right now, IWA-Midsouth, CZW, Wrestling Society X (yes I brought that one up) and many other Independent promotions out there.

To be honest a workers opinion should be the only opinion that matters and it shows, WWE doesn't listen to the IWC and theyr'e number one, TNA caters to everybody and that gives them a shot if they can get their s*** straight and actually deliver what they delivered last monday every weekend, but they are number two and ROH tried to cater to the IWC for a long time and they really, reaaaaalllllly struggled.

I've heard people crap on matches before who don't see the match within the match, the story within the story, and some of you may think you know what I'm talking about but you don't and I'm not going to explain because there are secrets in this business that I'm not going to share with you, if you want to learn them go out and get trained.

However I have heard some really creative ideas and some really good opinions from the IWC and those are few and far between because the IWC is polluted with about 85% ignorance. But those who do have good opinions I have seen them put into motion for a few indy promotions out there.

In short this is America, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But It sometimes really irks some workers to hear people who have never stepped into the ring and actually wrestled a match or even been on the other side of a curtain at a wrestling show critique their work like they were a 20-year veteran, or a promoter themselves. I don't think the IWC or any fan for that matter will be able to get that full perspective needed to say some of the things I've seen on these forums until they see a show from behind the curtain, and I'm not saying that to down anyone, I'm really just saying that because that's what hapened to me. I never really, fully had a solid belief about the state of wrestling today until I was in the ring refereeing my first match and then wrestling my first match a few months later.

So I want to say this to the IWC, don't be so sure in what your opinnions are about a "5-star" match or "5-star" show because the majority of you haven't been in the ring or been behind the curtain.

 

[Tyler44]

I'm going to talk about one point Lord Sidious in your post. People who claim Cena has only 5 moves are the people who pretty much just say "Oh I hate Sheamus because he bows down to Triple H" or "Triple H is only champion because he married the boss's daughter"....and these are the dumbass, clueless fans that you are talking about. They really don't understand that Cena DOES know more than 5 moves, but he doesn't use it because his 5 moves are all apart and legendary to his matches. Because of that, people complain because sadly the matches are not legendary and pretty much the same thing over and over. The thing that sucks about that is that us older fans who don't appeal to Cena have to watch it over and over while the little kids who think Cena is our Hogan love to watch it. We can't stand it because it is so stale to watch, but we also can't do anything about it cause the John Cena character is not for us.

 

[axl626]

One more small point. I hate when people say "So and so really carried so and so." I've heard it with Jack Swagger and Cena, Miz and Cena, and a couple other matches. It takes two to have a good match and I don't believe taking offense for most of the match qualifies as carrying. Sorry, I just heard somebody say that Shawn Michaels could carry Big Show (who gets so much crap) and was just pissed about it.

 

[Jappa121]

for the creator of the topic I would have to say one thing, Just cause you don't know what your talking about, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. All those things you rolled your eyes at are actually true, Jericho know how to get a reaction out of the crowd better than most, Shelton Benjamin is a great technical wrestler due to his amateur wrestling background and his experience in the company.

And about the carrying part, it doesn't take two people always, if one person can constantly fix the other persons mistakes they are carrying the match

 

[billm75]

FWIW, my opinions expressed here on the forum (however seldom) are usually in defense of the wrestlers or personalities getting bashed. I mean, I'm not huge on Cena, Mark Henry, MVP, Mike Knox, but I respect what they're doing out there.

I'm a more casual fan, not looking for the "perfect technical" or "perfect storyline" or "perfect promo" to entertain me. I just want to see some wrestling and enjoy it. I don't have to love who everyone else loves, and they don't have to love who I root for, but you can respect what they're doing and appreciate the effort. And if you can't do that, you can turn the channel, can't you? I can, and did for a number of years, only recently getting interested in it once again because my children wanted to watch.

I was huge on Hogan, Savage, Piper, The Bushwackers, etc back in my youth. Then I quit watching for over a decade, only turning it back on last year. I missed the "Attitude Era" and all that nonsense.....I mean, I'm sure it was funny, entertaining, etc, but I couldn't let my kids see that stuff. It wasn't age appropriate.

I liken Pro Wrestling to Monster Truck rallies. The REAL reason either of them are popular is for the children. The parents spend the money, and some adults are truly diehard supporters, but the majority of their fanbase is made up of adolescents. It's a SHOW, it's ENTERTAINMENT and they work hard to provide it for us.

When I have a complaint, it's because the show failed to entertain me, or a certain match seemed to end too soon, or not soon enough. And frankly, I don't like Cena with a title, I like him better chasing the title. It's more compelling to me.

 

[CoolioCM]

If I could offer a current worker's prospective here for a sec. I honestly believe that you can't have a fully knowledgable opinion about this business, what goes one in it and what needs to happen with it until you've been in a locker room and you've been on the road and more importantly been trained in the art that is professional wrestling. A lot of the IWC consist of just marks and people who will probably never get in the ring, and granted everyone has their role in this business as the fans are just as much a part of it as we the workers are.


However, and I think this of all critics be it from all aspects of life, They don't fully know what they are talking about until they're experienced it until they've stood in that ring and worked a match. I've heard the IWC say some stupid......STUPID things in the past and be completely and totally ignorant with their "opinions" when they only think they know what they are talking about. When they don't know the first thing that goes into a wrestling match much less an entire wrestling show. Espescially some of these so called "wrestling reporters" and "news sites". Wrestlezone is one of the legit sites out there because they get opinions from people who have been in the business for a number of years, but some sites are run by IWC marks and are crap. But cak to the IWC, a lot of workers are out there to appease only that audience and they aren't successful I can name a few right now, IWA-Midsouth, CZW, Wrestling Society X (yes I brought that one up) and many other Independent promotions out there.

To be honest a workers opinion should be the only opinion that matters and it shows, WWE doesn't listen to the IWC and theyr'e number one, TNA caters to everybody and that gives them a shot if they can get their s*** straight and actually deliver what they delivered last monday every weekend, but they are number two and ROH tried to cater to the IWC for a long time and they really, reaaaaalllllly struggled.

I've heard people crap on matches before who don't see the match within the match, the story within the story, and some of you may think you know what I'm talking about but you don't and I'm not going to explain because there are secrets in this business that I'm not going to share with you, if you want to learn them go out and get trained.

However I have heard some really creative ideas and some really good opinions from the IWC and those are few and far between because the IWC is polluted with about 85% ignorance. But those who do have good opinions I have seen them put into motion for a few indy promotions out there.

In short this is America, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But It sometimes really irks some workers to hear people who have never stepped into the ring and actually wrestled a match or even been on the other side of a curtain at a wrestling show critique their work like they were a 20-year veteran, or a promoter themselves. I don't think the IWC or any fan for that matter will be able to get that full perspective needed to say some of the things I've seen on these forums until they see a show from behind the curtain, and I'm not saying that to down anyone, I'm really just saying that because that's what hapened to me. I never really, fully had a solid belief about the state of wrestling today until I was in the ring refereeing my first match and then wrestling my first match a few months later.

So I want to say this to the IWC, don't be so sure in what your opinnions are about a "5-star" match or "5-star" show because the majority of you haven't been in the ring or been behind the curtain.

Couldn't have said it any better.


I don't care how long you all have been watching wrestling, you still don't have a clue about the artform of it, and I don't mean that offensively. Put it this way; I have seen thousands of movies in my lifetime, but does that mean I know how to direct one? Of course not. So why assume you know more about "working" than the people in the business who have been trained and taught this business?


Again, have your opinions, like what you want to like, and by all means, watch what you want to watch. All that is fine, but to actually imply that you know this business better than those in it, is pure ignorance.

...I don't know, just some food for thought.

 

[maar130]

If I could offer a current worker's prospective here for a sec. I honestly believe that you can't have a fully knowledgable opinion about this business, what goes one in it and what needs to happen with it until you've been in a locker room and you've been on the road and more importantly been trained in the art that is professional wrestling. A lot of the IWC consist of just marks and people who will probably never get in the ring, and granted everyone has their role in this business as the fans are just as much a part of it as we the workers are.


However, and I think this of all critics be it from all aspects of life, They don't fully know what they are talking about until they're experienced it until they've stood in that ring and worked a match. I've heard the IWC say some stupid......STUPID things in the past and be completely and totally ignorant with their "opinions" when they only think they know what they are talking about. When they don't know the first thing that goes into a wrestling match much less an entire wrestling show. Espescially some of these so called "wrestling reporters" and "news sites". Wrestlezone is one of the legit sites out there because they get opinions from people who have been in the business for a number of years, but some sites are run by IWC marks and are crap. But cak to the IWC, a lot of workers are out there to appease only that audience and they aren't successful I can name a few right now, IWA-Midsouth, CZW, Wrestling Society X (yes I brought that one up) and many other Independent promotions out there.

To be honest a workers opinion should be the only opinion that matters and it shows, WWE doesn't listen to the IWC and theyr'e number one, TNA caters to everybody and that gives them a shot if they can get their s*** straight and actually deliver what they delivered last monday every weekend, but they are number two and ROH tried to cater to the IWC for a long time and they really, reaaaaalllllly struggled.

I've heard people crap on matches before who don't see the match within the match, the story within the story, and some of you may think you know what I'm talking about but you don't and I'm not going to explain because there are secrets in this business that I'm not going to share with you, if you want to learn them go out and get trained.

However I have heard some really creative ideas and some really good opinions from the IWC and those are few and far between because the IWC is polluted with about 85% ignorance. But those who do have good opinions I have seen them put into motion for a few indy promotions out there.

In short this is America, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But It sometimes really irks some workers to hear people who have never stepped into the ring and actually wrestled a match or even been on the other side of a curtain at a wrestling show critique their work like they were a 20-year veteran, or a promoter themselves. I don't think the IWC or any fan for that matter will be able to get that full perspective needed to say some of the things I've seen on these forums until they see a show from behind the curtain, and I'm not saying that to down anyone, I'm really just saying that because that's what hapened to me. I never really, fully had a solid belief about the state of wrestling today until I was in the ring refereeing my first match and then wrestling my first match a few months later.

So I want to say this to the IWC, don't be so sure in what your opinnions are about a "5-star" match or "5-star" show because the majority of you haven't been in the ring or been behind the curtain.

Well from an ex-worker's current perspective all I can tell you is that what you said here sometimes apply to people even involved in the business.

Certainly I have never worked for the WWE or TNA, was part of training camp at CMLL and IWR and some promo called Promo-Azteca in Mexico, worked a few dates in Texas and even was in Japan a couple times, but besides maybe not had what it took at the time, or ever, I fucked my left knee and my lower back pretty bad and retired like 6 years ago, actually 2003but 2010 is just starting.

So I have been involved in the business but like you mentioned before, I can't actually tell you completely what a 5 star show is, or a 5 star match for that matter, only form my perspective.

Thing is that most of the time we speculate like in everything, even if in the past we were involved in some manner, I am not involved now as I was in the past at all. My opinions goes more from a fan that I am now and even some of those are biased by my personal liking, like from most people anywhere in the world.

And no I still don't think the WWE or Vince for that matter thinks high on the IWC, because eventhough they can see one guy with a good Idea, there will be 5 guys shutting it down in 3 minutes, so I really don't thing what the IWC says (me also been part of that like all of us, because if you post here or anyother forum, you are part of it) affects them that much, not even when they had the Cyber Sunday or Taboo Tuesday PPVs, since from what you can see,most things need planning, even if you try to make people interact.

Thing is that you are always learning in there and never really can say what's going on in a company like that, because it is not run like an Indy promotion at all, it also has changed so much over time that to keep up the way they look at things now is actually a challenge.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Honestly Sid, I don't think you're going to hear jack shit from anyone. why, you ask? Because your one million percent right. The IWC talks out of their asses, plain and simple.

I concur.

I was an independent professional wrestler (on and off) for close to 12 years. In that time, I learned techniques from different schools, had my share of 'ring-psychology', took my bruises and ate my bumps. But even with all of that experience, I won't sit here and critique the ring work of the best professional wrestlers in the world that exist in TNA, ROH and the WWE. The reason is because I wouldn't have the slightest clue as to what I were talking about. The IWC should take a lesson from that.

Again, I completely agree but you should not be so modest. With that kind of experience obviously your evaluation of ring work to my own would be better because you have more experience in the ring than I do.

None of you have a fucking clue as to how difficult the sport of professional wrestling really is. In a wrestling ring, minutes seem like HOURS. It's painful, tiresome, difficult, requires tons of concentration, coordination, athleticism, intelligence, timing, and personality. Cutting live promos is one of the most difficult aspects of the game. Getting noticed by a large organization (such as the WWE) is damn near impossible. But these men and women have done it all, and you all critique them while you play Dungeons and Dragons and jerk-off to Hentai porn when the last athletic thing you did was grab a Hot Pocket from the freezer.

Not only did this make me laugh but all I can do is nod my head in agreement, and I am anything but a “yes man”. I can attest to the truth of this through my own in ring experience. It is tough, grueling work and takes years to become a true professional in the ring.

It doesn't matter if you can chain wrestle for 20 minutes, if the WWE fans don't care, then you're a horrible match for the company. That's what people who sing the praises of McGuinness or the latest ROH champion have to realize. Sure, ROH fans love the wrestling going on. But would the fans of the WWE honestly like that same type of wrestling? I would bet no, they wouldn't.

A little story to validate this statement. I used to go watch all the pay-per-views at a local small movie theater here in Des Moines called “Billy Joe's Picture Show”. It was a small theater that showed 2nd run movies for less than regular movie theater price, and every month their main attraction was showing WWE pay-per-views. Before every show there would be two local radio dj's who would M.C. The event. They would ask about fan predictions, ask trivia questions, give out prizes from ticket drawings, and just entertain the crowd until the show in one fashion or another. Sadly Billy Joe's was sold and no longer does this, but it was a tradition of legend here in Des Moines for years, and some of the most fun any WWE fan could have in town without seeing a WWE event.

Since they did draw wrestling fans, you best believe that they also drew fans of other promotions, most notably ROH. There was a small group of ROH loyalists who thought it was head over heels superior to WWE, and felt that Billy Joe's should show ROH pay-per-views as well. So, being the smart business people that they were, the people at Billy Joe's decided to test theory in a way. What they did was instead of having the pre pay-per-view entertainment of the M.C.'s they decided to show a dvd of one of ROH's pay-per-views to see how the WWE crowd would react and whether or not they would be interested in seeing them on a regular basis as well. The results were unanimous. Nobody like the ROH stuff. I fell asleep as did others and when asked about it, the theater as a whole booed the idea into the ground. Never again did they make the mistake of showing a ROH pay-per-view to a WWE audience. When people were asked what they liked or disliked about it the response was as was the results were unanimous.

No one liked it because there was no story to any of it, and none of what was going on made sense as a result. There was some kind of backyard hardcore match or something, where everyone was beating each other up with props, the actual wrestling was non existent, and people kept randomly coming out to the ring and beating up on each other with no real alliances or enemies. It was just some kind of free for all gimmick match which was poorly done at that, nothing was explained, and did I mention that this match seemed to never end. It was waaaaay too long and no one was interested in it even slightly. I saw people playing cards instead of watching this shit. Then, when the actual wrestling matches were shown, no one cared because there was once again, no back story, nothing explained. It was like stuff just happened for no reason, people were just put in matches for the hell of it. The actual wrestling matches were also no better than what is put forth by the WWE even though it was supposed to be so technical and everything. It was an abysmal failure.


This is just a testament to the above quoted, and I thought a good example to prove so. It's not all about the actual wrestling, it's more about story. The ring is where most of the story plays out.

With that being said, I am opening up the floor to your comments on whether you agree or disagree with anything, if you think people are too critical of ring work or if you think people are on par with their critiques

As noted already I completely agree with everything. I do think people are often times too critical of ring work, and that most of those critics are ill-equipped to make those evaluations. Are they on par? Not really. I think most of the time it IS just people saying whatever they have heard before in an effort to look like they actually know something about the in ring workings of wrestling.

I have trained for professional wrestling, I never really wanted to be a wrestler so much as I wanted to learn how to wrestle and find out more about the business. I received the privileged to work with a small promotion for a while as security, and I was one of the guys who set up the ring, set up the seats, and tended to the wrestlers needs as needed, this was while I trained. Outside of that I occasionally offered up opinions on the creative side of it some of which was and wasn't used, and I got to see how people decide the booking, the storylines, the finishes, etc.... So, I got a feel for the way things really work in the business which is also why I decided I didn't want to get so far into it, I just liked being involved in some way, and being able to contribute something to it.

With that experience I was able to understand things in the business better, and can say I have some of my own within it. However, I am not an expert on the technicalities of wrestling in the ring, nor would I prop myself as one. Hence, you don't see me making too many critiques on peoples in ring ability so much. If we are talking about Goldberg, or Warrior, or maybe even Cena who people refer to as horrible I might chime in a bit. But, I do not have too much to say about it overall. Everyone makes comments in regards to peoples abilities or lack thereof in the ring to some degree. I do feel though that there is a line to be drawn between witless commentary and educated evaluation.

 

[Scorpio8975]

Well put @maar130 and I'm going to even go out and say that my opinion isn't really that warranted as well seeing as how I am not even out of my first year in wrestling, but like I said as well I have been there and wrestled in or been a part of over 50 matches in just 6 months. I've been proven wrong, none more so than I was when I shared a locker room with Necro Butcher (oh yes THAT Necro Butcher). I used to think the guy was a complete idiot for his style of wrestling and was a complete idiot in general for liking to do it. However, he was one of the coolest people to meet and he knew a bit more about the business than I thought he did, do I still agree to his style of work? No I do not but I do know that he is one cool cat and I wouldn't mind being on a show with him again.

Also, I work with the NWA, yes THE NWA that once had it's world title as TNA's main belt and the NWA name still means something as it is the one of the leading promotions in Texas right now and has some of the best workers still in league with the promotion, so as far as working with a promotion that has a name for itself as well as running a show every week and needing to keep a crowd in seats some of the things I hear on this site are completely and totally absurd, and then there are some things that are said here that are legitimately good ideas and if done the right way can work.

I have my personal likes and dislikes for this business, I prefer the balance, the ideal promotion should have the perfect balance between the story worked in the ring andthe story worked on the mic or in a promo. Somewhere that concept got lost, and quite possibly for good...due to the one thing that is both a terminal illness in the wrestling business but yet required for you to be in it as well......an ego. You have to have a slight ego to be in the business, it's what helps you transform into the "larger than life" character that gets portrayed in the ring, some people carry it too far and it becomes all about them.

Similar things can be said about the IWC, everyone thinks their ideas can "fix the business" when they really don't know the work and effort it takes to organize, promote and execute any wrestling show. From the Indies all the way to WWE, it's a tough business and it really makes some guys angry when they hear some of the Internet marks get on forums just like this one and present their "grand scheme" to the world about how they can "fix the business".


Opinions are opinions and debates are always fun but if you don't know what your talking about which like I said makes up about 85% of the IWC, then you need to just sit down and watch.

oh btw @maar130: Where in Japan did you work and did you ever come across a guy named Michael Faith?

 

[maar130]

Well put @maar130 and I'm going to even go out and say that my opinion isn't really that warranted as well seeing as how I am not even out of my first year in wrestling, but like I said as well I have been there and wrestled in or been a part of over 50 matches in just 6 months. I've been proven wrong, none more so than I was when I shared a locker room with Necro Butcher (oh yes THAT Necro Butcher). I used to think the guy was a complete idiot for his style of wrestling and was a complete idiot in general for liking to do it. However, he was one of the coolest people to meet and he knew a bit more about the business than I thought he did, do I still agree to his style of work? No I do not but I do know that he is one cool cat and I wouldn't mind being on a show with him again.

Also, I work with the NWA, yes THE NWA that once had it's world title as TNA's main belt and the NWA name still means something as it is the one of the leading promotions in Texas right now and has some of the best workers still in league with the promotion, so as far as working with a promotion that has a name for itself as well as running a show every week and needing to keep a crowd in seats some of the things I hear on this site are completely and totally absurd, and then there are some things that are said here that are legitimately good ideas and if done the right way can work.

I have my personal likes and dislikes for this business, I prefer the balance, the ideal promotion should have the perfect balance between the story worked in the ring andthe story worked on the mic or in a promo. Somewhere that concept got lost, and quite possibly for good...due to the one thing that is both a terminal illness in the wrestling business but yet required for you to be in it as well......an ego. You have to have a slight ego to be in the business, it's what helps you transform into the "larger than life" character that gets portrayed in the ring, some people carry it too far and it becomes all about them.

Similar things can be said about the IWC, everyone thinks their ideas can "fix the business" when they really don't know the work and effort it takes to organize, promote and execute any wrestling show. From the Indies all the way to WWE, it's a tough business and it really makes some guys angry when they hear some of the Internet marks get on forums just like this one and present their "grand scheme" to the world about how they can "fix the business".


Opinions are opinions and debates are always fun but if you don't know what your talking about which like I said makes up about 85% of the IWC, then you need to just sit down and watch.

oh btw @maar130: Where in Japan did you work and did you ever come across a guy named Michael Faith?

Well you are right about the IWC in general, look at it as you are a fan of a football team, when they lose everyone knows how to fix the season and made the team the leader of the current Conference, then again none of them do coaching for a living and does not know what it takes to make te team really work, just Ideas and most of the time misconceptions about players personalitties and the coach.

Yes I also have a bit of an Ego, I thing that is the one part than I still don't let go completely since it is fun to have one, maybe my ego is a big one some times but I was suposed to have one.

And directly to your question @Scorpio8975, Usually CMLL had arrangements with NJPW but I was only one time with them and the other two were with BJPW (Big Japan), those guys had fun matches and had a stamina second to none, they can put two shows on the same night on different Arenas with out sweating it. And sorry but no I don't remember knowing Michael Faith, don't know if he was there in 1998 when I was there in Kanagawa. Do you know if he was around at the late half of 1999 when they were having shows at Saporo (don't know if I spelled that one correctly)?, We were a party of 3 from IWR in a small arena for 2 shows, maybe he was there too.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

Honestly Sid, I don't think you're going to hear jack shit from anyone. why, you ask? Because your one million percent right. The IWC talks out of their asses, plain and simple.

Obviously, the mere though of the subject of this thread pisses me off to no end. Therefore, for the readers that are not guilty of this bullshit, I apologize. But for the rest of you, feel free to keep reading.

I was an independent professional wrestler (on and off) for close to 12 years. In that time, I learned techniques from different schools, had my share of 'ring-psychology', took my bruises and ate my bumps. But even with all of that experience, I won't sit here and critique the ring work of the best professional wrestlers in the world that exist in TNA, ROH and the WWE. The reason is because I wouldn't have the slightest clue as to what I were talking about. The IWC should take a lesson from that.

"Easier said than done."​

Give that phrase a listen a few times, IWC. This is the most basic reply I can give all of you when you run your mouths with the stupidity that Sidious was kind enough to quote for all of us in his original post. None of you have a fucking clue as to how difficult the sport of professional wrestling really is. In a wrestling ring, minutes seem like HOURS. It's painful, tiresome, difficult, requires tons of concentration, coordination, athleticism, intelligence, timing, and personality. Cutting live promos is one of the most difficult aspects of the game. Getting noticed by a large organization (such as the WWE) is damn near impossible. But these men and women have done it all, and you all critique them while you play Dungeons and Dragons and jerk-off to Hentai porn when the last athletic thing you did was grab a Hot Pocket from the freezer.

This is why when you see my posts on this website, I stay passionate, fact-filled, and I speak from true experience. You should all try the same thing.

Here's a tip, IWC: Don't speak like you know what you're talking about. Actually know what you're talking about before you speak. - The D-Man

My man, fucking well said brother. I'll do my best to follow-up. I love the arm chair experts, that can pick apart anything and offer their opinions as to how they could do it better, while eating dorittos and drinking pepsi, wiping crumbs of their beer bellies. Really if you can do it better than the professionals then why the fuck aren't you in the WWE winning championships? We the fans nitpick and 'critique' these amazing atheletes because we have nothing better to do with our time really. I admit I have been guilty of it, but most of the time, I try to post facts with what I think was wrong, I don't jsut offer my arm chair explination and leave it at that, like so many of us do.

Really people what is their to gain from picking apart CM Punk's foot slipping slightly off the rope as he hops to the middle turnbuckle? What would does it accomplish, except to make you feel smarter about yourself, and to prove to yourself and you other pals that you know your 'wrasslin'. Really these guys wrestle hundreds of matches a year, and a few slip ups and they need to work on their ring work, because they suck. Come on, there are some who are better in the ring than others, but they obviously don't suck if they are in the WWE, TNA or even ROH. So please, hit us with some facts and explinations, not just idiotic quotes.

 

[I_Like_All_Wrestling]

I partially agree with most that's being said here. But I do have to point out that while many might be willing to sign up for a wrestling forums and post messages, they may not be willing to spend time seeking out specific video/images and linking to them with specific time points in which to illustrate their point. I just don't think that's going to happen. I'm not going to spend the time to do that. I will say though, that I would love to see it, it would definitely go a long way in making people back up what they say.

Another important thing to remember here is that most analysis' that people give here are based on their own personal preferences and not a sound business perspective. I'll also venture to say that most people here probably do not have any wrestling training (sure, some may) and that a minority, if any, have professional experience in the entertainment industry. That definitely affects the thought process here.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Another important thing to remember here is that most analysis' that people give here are based on their own personal preferences and not a sound business perspective. I'll also venture to say that most people here probably do not have any wrestling training (sure, some may) and that a minority, if any, have professional experience in the entertainment industry. That definitely affects the thought process here.

The thing is though, I really don't know if it really is personal preference, or if it is more of a subconscious thing picked up from another person.

Let's face it. We're all on a discussion forum. I'm poster X. I see Poster Y make some smarky comment about a wrestler not using enough ring psychology. So in turn, I start making comments just repeating what I heard without thinking about it. And it basically spreads from there.

So I am not convinced that the people who spew this stuff even truly believe it themselves, or if they are just going off of what other people say.

When you start backing up what you say by either posting a video to demonstrate your point in your criticism or if you can elaborate a little ... because I don't see these people do any real elaborating at all on this stuff .... then maybe they can be taken a bit more seriously, instead of just trying to act like they know what they are talking about, when in reality they know nothing.

 

[Tastycles]

I think you are probably right, to be honest. There are things that people say, and then they just get repeated without anyone really thinking about it. I do critique ring work, but only when I notice something. I don't normally put a youtube video, but I do give an explanation of what I am talking about. To be honest, most of my criticism is levelled at Matt Morgan, so it is unrelevant here, but I'll give a WWE example. As I said, I rarely do it, but I do notice things occaisionally. D-Man made an interesting point about us not being able to do any better, but in reality, how many of us could write better storylines, commentate or cut promos better than the people we criticise? Few, if any.

Anyway, Sidious, you asked for a specific example, and I shall give you one. John Cena is hated by many, most of whom have stupid opinions. He is also heralded by many, who see him as an old school face in the vain of Hogan. I think on the mic, he is comparable, but in the ring he is missing a vital ingredient, and no, it isn't a 6th move. What Cena is missing is the ability for the crowd to feel the shift in momentum, observe:


If you start watching from 5 minutes, you will see Andre, dominant at this point, whip Hogan. Hogan comes back off the ropes and gets him down. Hogan then starts to gee up the crowd. Look at him at about 5.50, he looks battered, sweaty and tired, but he knows that the crowd are behind him. Just by looking at him, the audience can feel what he has been though. At the same time, he is letting them know that he has the power now. That is what makes what happens next that little bit better.


Compare that to Cena. In this match, Miz has dominated the first video and the first minute or so on this. Cena rams Miz into the turnbuckle, then is immediately fine. You don't get the triumph over adversity that you did with Hogan, you just get a guy beating a guy he is better than. It's fine, but the crowd reaction and relation to the victory would have been much better if Cena had at least looked a bit tired when he finally turned the momentum, not to mention the extra rub that would have gone to The Miz.

Clearly, I don't think John Cena's in-ring work is bad, but I thought that was the most easily identifiable instance of ringwork comparision, and I never would have ordinarily made that point I don't think. There is certainly a lack of psychology in a lot of matches, such as when wrestlers try and get cheap victories in intense feuds, but I'll talk about those matters when they come up.

I look as if I am disagreeing with Sidious and D-Man here, but I only am to an extent really. I do think that there are some things to be said about in-ring performance, but an awful lot of the stuff people write on here is word of mouth follow the leader. Also, if anyone has actually said the final quote that Sidious put in his first post, they should be ashamed of themselves.