Do you believe in Abortions? (Touchy Subject)

[CobraVenom]

It's not right that a innocent baby that did not ask to be coneived be punished because of a idiot who didn't use proper precaution when having sex.

In case where a Woman is raped, they are both innocent. A woman should not be forced to have a baby that was conceived during a rape. That baby, will be a reminder to the parent all there life about how the baby was conceived.

Here is the fence. Pick a side. You can't straddle it forever. You are either against it or you are not. Pick one. I really do not care which you choose. You can't say you are for it and say it is wrong in this instance. On the flip side, you can't say you are against it, but it is ok in this instance.

For me, it is simple. A woman's body is her body. It is her choice whether or not she wants to have an abortion. It is easy for me to say this since I am a man. I know this. If you ask me "Well, Mr. Venom, what if the child is yours?" Then I'd say it is still her choice. I know I'm not a good choice to be a parent. I have the attention span of a six year old in a toy store. So, I stand by what I said. The decision is the woman's.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Like I said, if that contradicts myself I really don’t give a damn because a raped person should not be forced to conceive, I thought we already went through this?

I believe a baby has the right to live, but not through a crime. How do u think that baby will feel when he finds out that he was conceived through rape?

Honestly HBK, I could care less what you think of me, if this means I’m contradicting myself then so be it. I still stand by it no matter what you say.

Stand by what? I agree with you on the issue of rape! My question, that I've put to you multiple times now, is how it all works out? How do you work out who is actually telling the truth about rape, and should get an abortion, in the few months you have? I'm not forcefully debating, I'm asking for what your idea on the issue is. But you ignore it whenever I ask.

Also I think there should not be a option for them, they need to learn that when you have sex without precaution there are going to be consequences. Why can't you accept the fact that we just have different views in this?

Well, first, the Cigar Lounge was made for heated debates like this, and I'm enjoying myself. If you didn't want to debate so much you shouldn't have made the topic, or you can stop replying. Second, I made my name in the Cigar Lounge, debating this very topic, so it's a trip down memory lane. And third, this isn't one of those subjects where having differing opinions means nothing in day to day life, this is a topic where people on your side of the argument are actively trying to tell me what I can and can't do with my body. Therefore, no, I don't just accept it.

 

[Blizz]

I'll probably catch some heat for this, but I believe that even if a woman is raped she should not be able to have an aborion. Just because you were forced into sex does not mean you should be able to end a human life.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Weird question..Of course I believe in Abortion..its reall...It should be renamed, are you for or against abortion..

Anyway...to the topic, My religion is against abortions, because we believe its taking ones life, the baby no matter how it has been concieved, its still a life growing inside you and you have gone and killed it...

Putting religion aside, in the subject of rape...I have different views on it, because there is the fact that this baby could be some random dudes baby and I don't know how the mother will look at the baby(although it will still be loved)..This subject is really important in my book, and debates on this subject can go on and on and on and on...everyone has their own views and opinions, but the fact is...well what is the fact??

 

[Vash21]

My views on abortion have changed over the years. Abortion should be legal in cases of rape incest or serious threat to the mothers life.

Partial birth abortion is an abomination and should be removed from human history.

 

[Bobloblaw]

I hate when this topic gets brought up because it always goes into people's personal views and that's not what Rowe was about. The argument always gets skewed into someones moral belief which contrary to most on the anti-abortion crowds doesn't actually count for a whole lot. I say that with in mind that the ruling was about a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. The court said the state didn't have the authority to mandate what a woman may or may not do with her reproduction.

Now to contradict myself and bring some personal views. The idea of having the viewpoint that a woman should carry a child based on incest or rape is insane to me. That's like passing off those two cases and saying they're no big deal. I'm pretty sure if someone has been subjected to rape or incest that there are some pretty big psychological ramifications. I doubt you'll poll most victims of incest and a majority of them will say their experience was just because the wanted a nice romp with a member of their family. I'm pretty sure most victims and I stress the word Victims of incest are subjected to the abuse. The argument that the fetus (because it's not a child until a certain point) would be better off alive and living in those conditions are stunning to me.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I'll probably catch some heat for this, but I believe that even if a woman is raped she should not be able to have an aborion. Just because you were forced into sex does not mean you should be able to end a human life.

So you believe that, after someone forcing a woman to have sex, you can force them into a pregnancy? And that fits nicely in your mind? It's bullshit, and such a thing should never, ever be considered. How much control do you want men to have over a womans own body?

Weird question..Of course I believe in Abortion..its reall...It should be renamed, are you for or against abortion..

Anyway...to the topic, My religion is against abortions, because we believe its taking ones life, the baby no matter how it has been concieved, its still a life growing inside you and you have gone and killed it...

Putting religion aside, in the subject of rape...I have different views on it, because there is the fact that this baby could be some random dudes baby and I don't know how the mother will look at the baby(although it will still be loved)..This subject is really important in my book, and debates on this subject can go on and on and on and on...everyone has their own views and opinions, but the fact is...well what is the fact??

It won't necessarily be still loved in those circumstances, first and foremost. The fact is, abortion needs to be legal because making it illegal will do nothing except make abortions unsafe. You think people will just stop having them? Of course not. But not only will the potential child be removed, there's a big possibility of death to the mother too.

My views on abortion have changed over the years. Abortion should be legal in cases of rape incest or serious threat to the mothers life.

Partial birth abortion is an abomination and should be removed from human history.

In the cases of rape and incest, how do you expect to control that? If the law changed now, all you'd do is get women coming to doctors asking for abortions because of either of those 2 issues. How would you sort the liars from those telling the truth in the few months you have?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Abortion is probably the single most volatile and controversial topic of discussion one can have, at least if you live in the United States. People can be extremely passionate and when people of opposing views talk about it, the topic can often be swallowed up and even pushed aside when people let their anger and frustrations get the better of them.

As for where I stand, I'm pro choice. Abortion isn't something that I'm generally comfortable with myself, that's me. My personal discomfort doesn't give me the right to dictate to a woman what she should or should not do with her body, particularly when it comes to something as intimately personal as reproduction. I feel that the government, overall, has quite a bit of say in how we live our daily lives already. Some government officials have gone as far as to shove their own personal beliefs into areas as personal as the right to die, in the Terry Schiavo case for example, and there are just some areas of life far too personal and intimate for government regulation and interference.

I know that many religious types say that it's against God but there's no mention of God being against abortion in any scripture I've read. I wouldn't expect there to be, of course, but some say that certain passages might be translated to mean just that. Abortion, to me, is the ultimate gray area because there is no one single set of circumstances in which either side can truly claim to be completely, 100% right. Some are fine with it if a woman is raped, but what if she wasn't raped and only said she was so her family would be ok with her getting an abortion? I had a friend, a little over 10 years ago now, that was raped by her drunken boyfriend on New Year's Eve. She was brutally raped and, unbeknownst to her at the time, she was a month pregnant with her boyfriend's child. She says they always used protection, they took precautions, but still she was pregnant. She didn't want to be pregnant and she lost the baby while she was raped. To this day, she still isn't certain as to how to feel about the miscarriage and the uncertainty of it all only adds to her pain.

If a pregnancy threatens a woman's life, is it right that she should die as well? In the minds of some, the answer is yes. They chalk it all up to "God's will". Maybe it all is God's will in the end, I don't know. What I do know is that God wouldn't be the one in danger of dying due to being pregnant. See what I mean? There's sooooooo much gray, there are so many different circumstances that pop up and nobody can be adequately prepared for all of them.

 

[I hate those Christians]

I disagree HBK.

Having it Legal, will be a step to making sure people have sex "Carefully" and there is no easy way out. The reason why people have so much sex without "precaution" is because they know they have somewhere to go and don't really take it seriously.

Do you think if they did make this legal that people would actually take having "Sex" more seriously?

I am not saying it will fix everything but i do think it will help in a way that it will make people think twice before doing it.

I do believe that Abortion and "Sex" isn't being taken seriously because people think it's ok to have a "abortion".

 

[justinsayne]

For example, if someone "decides" to have an abortion, has it set into you that the baby that was MURDERED could have cured cancer? Has it set into you that the baby could have been president?

Oh for fuck sake really?, are you seriously one of the people that actually believes that?!?

Here let me show you something...

mur·der
   /ˈmɜrdər/ Show Spelled[mur-der] Show IPA
–noun
1.
Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

That is the definition of murder, and her is the definition of Abortion...


a·bor·tion
   /əˈbɔrʃən/ Show Spelled[uh-bawr-shuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.Also called voluntary abortion. the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

2.any of various surgical methods for terminating a pregnancy, esp. during the first six months.

3.Also called spontaneous abortion. miscarriage ( def. 1 ) .

4.an immature and nonviable fetus.

5.abortus ( def. 2b ) .

6.any malformed or monstrous person, thing, etc.

7.Biology . the arrested development of an embryo or an organ at a more or less early stage.

8.the stopping of an illness, infection, etc., at a very early stage.

9.Informal .
a.shambles; mess.
b.anything that fails to develop, progress, or mature, as a design or project.

Nowhere in the definition for abortion do I see anything that says killing of another human being, murder and abortion are two entirely different things

further more I would love for one of these "IT'S MURDER!!!!" people to explain to me why it's ok for them to kill doctors who preform them, or bomb clinics, how the fuck can these people justify that shit yet terminating a group of cells that is not human is murder?

Here's what I think: If Abortions were meant to happen, there wouldn't have been a pregnancy in the first place.

Alright, you seem to think things happen for a reason, so let me ask you this, if a pregnancy is meant to happen then how do you explain a miscarriage?, are they meant to happen too?

People treat it like it's just a run-of-the-mill big choice

I have never in my 29 years on this planet have met a single person who treats even the idea of abortion as just a run-of-the-mill big choice

yet, it's murder

no it's not, not even close

I just don't see how anyone would decide to do it

Cause some people feel it is the only choice they have left, for example if you're raped it's not like you're gonna tell you rapist to make sure he uses a condom or something, you're gonna be a little distracted by other things to say the least

For the record I do not agree with the idea of having an abortion unless it's under the most extreme of circumstances, however I do feel a woman has the right to choose what she does with her body

Also I think both Becca and IC have done an amazing job with there posts in this thread

 

[justinsayne]

I disagree HBK.

Having it Legal, will be a step to making sure people have sex "Carefully" and there is no easy way out. The reason why people have so much sex without "precaution" is because they know they have somewhere to go and don't really take it seriously.

WHAT?!?!, nobody in their right fucking mind thinks "eh, if I get knocked up I'll just go hit up the clinic and have this lil' fucker sucked outta me, who cares if an abortion will cost me an arm and a leg and I'll likely face public scrutiny for the rest of my life"

Do you think if they did make this legal that people would actually take having "Sex" more seriously?

I don't think if you make abortions legal that people are gonna go running out and getting one and stop using protection, there are still plenty of reasons for people will still need to use protection, ya know shit like herpes, the clap, gonorrhea, etc.

I am not saying it will fix everything but i do think it will help in a way that it will make people think twice before doing it.

I imagine people who feel abortion is the answer put a shit load of thought into it before going through with it

I do believe that Abortion and "Sex" isn't being taken seriously because people think it's ok to have a "abortion".

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine anyone thinks it's just "ok" to have an abortion, it's a pretty heavy choice to make

 

[CobraVenom]

I disagree HBK.

Having it Legal, will be a step to making sure people have sex "Carefully" and there is no easy way out. The reason why people have so much sex without "precaution" is because they know they have somewhere to go and don't really take it seriously.

Do you think if they did make this legal that people would actually take having "Sex" more seriously?

I am not saying it will fix everything but i do think it will help in a way that it will make people think twice before doing it.

I do believe that Abortion and "Sex" isn't being taken seriously because people think it's ok to have a "abortion".

You can't possibly be this dense. First, you say that making abortion legal would be a step to make sure people have safe sex? Then you say that the reason people don't have safe sex is that they can fall back on an abortion?


Ok, I take it back. You really are that dense. You do not have your head on right at all. Have you ever had sex? My guess is no. When people have sex, abortion is the furthest thing from their mind, and it is not because they do not take it seriously. Get a clue.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

I believe in a Woman's right to choose.

This hasen't affected me but if it did I probably would still feel this way. IF this ever came up in my life I would sit down and talk about it with my wife/gf and I would help her make up her mind. What i would not do in any way is try to force what I want on her because if she's considering abortion then she's got enough on her plate with out my Bullshit.

But she could give it up for adoption you say. True but having an abortion (Which happens befoe the child is borh) is alot easier for some than having the baby and holding it in your handsv only to never see it again.

 

[Blizz]

So you believe that, after someone forcing a woman to have sex, you can force them into a pregnancy?

Yes, I do. Unless the woman is expected to die in child birth or the child is expect to live a life in agony with some crippling disease. Nobody should be able to end a human life. Yes, it's quite unfortunate that so and so was raped but it just seems kind of fucked up for that woman to say, "Oh, now I don't want to got through the pains of childbirth so... I'll abort it." And don't give me that bullshit argument that raising the baby could destroy her life and any future plans. Nobody is forcing them to keep the child.

And that fits nicely in your mind?

Why yes it does.

It's bullshit, and such a thing should never, ever be considered. How much control do you want men to have over a womans own body?

Oh, for fucks sake. Don't make this about a matter of control. I don't give a fuck what women want or not want do with their bodies but when they want to end a human life, I give a fuck.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yes, I do. Unless the woman is expected to die in child birth or the child is expect to live a life in agony with some crippling disease. Nobody should be able to end a human life. Yes, it's quite unfortunate that so and so was raped but it just seems kind of fucked up for that woman to say, "Oh, now I don't want to got through the pains of childbirth so... I'll abort it." And don't give me that bullshit argument that raising the baby could destroy her life and any future plans. Nobody is forcing them to keep the child.

Oh stop being so naive. The 'pains of childbirth' is the reason a woman wouldn't want to keep a child concieved via rape? Do you seriously believe that? If so, I would love to live in your nice little world. Because it could obvioiusly have nothing to do with not wanting to, first, have any part of a rapist inside of you, second, not wanting to look down for the next 9 months thinking of nothing but that, third, having your life turned upside down when you did nothing to deserve it, fourth, not wanting to tell people about the incident, fifth, not wanting him to have even more control over you... I can go on. The fact you think it's as simple as 'I don't want the pain = abortion' shows you know nothing about the issue.

I'd be willing to bet most of the women in that situation would gain an abortion whether it's legal or not. Putting their life at risk too; the stance you take very pro-life, don't you think?

Why yes it does. Oh, for fucks sake. Don't make this about a matter of control. I don't give a fuck what women want or not want do with their bodies but when they want to end a human life, I give a fuck.

I'm not making it a matter of control - the whole issue is about that. You see, you are telling me what I can do with my body - controlling me. At the end of the day you think that it's okay to force a woman who didn't even choose to have unprotected sex into 9 months of pregnancy. And you think the issue of control WON'T be raised?

 

[Blizz]

Oh stop being so naive. The 'pains of childbirth' is the reason a woman wouldn't want to keep a child concieved via rape? Do you seriously believe that? If so, I would love to live in your nice little world.

Fine, so women have multiple arguments as to why they should be allowed to have the abortion. Doesn't make any of them okay.

Because it could obvioiusly have nothing to do with not wanting to, first, have any part of a rapist inside of you, second, not wanting to look down for the next 9 months thinking of nothing but that, third, having your life turned upside down when you did nothing to deserve it, fourth, not wanting to tell people about the incident, fifth, not wanting him to have even more control over you... I can go on. The fact you think it's as simple as 'I don't want the pain = abortion' shows you know nothing about the issue.

So because the child's father is a rapist, you want to terminate its life? That's just sick. Not wanting to be reminded of the rape is a good reason to just kill it off? Again, how sick and twisted. I'm sorry that the raped woman has to be reminded of the rape for 9 months, but killing the child is not really the best way to deal withe the situation. Get through the 9 months and put the child up for adoption. Then move on with your life.

I'm not making it a matter of control - the whole issue is about that. You see, you are telling me what I can do with my body - controlling me. At the end of the day you think that it's okay to force a woman who didn't even choose to have unprotected sex into 9 months of pregnancy. And you think the issue of control WON'T be raised?

What I meant was don't make this a matter of men controlling women. I can see how woman want to defend their rights to control what goes on with their body but once agian- that does not mean the woman should be able to terminate the child. It's still a human being. In situations in which a human life is at stake, I really do believe that this 'women's control over their body' should be sacrificed.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Fine, so women have multiple arguments as to why they should be allowed to have the abortion. Doesn't make any of them okay.

Just because YOU don't think it's okay, you think you should be able to decide what women do with their body?

So because the child's father is a rapist, you want to terminate its life? That's just sick. Not wanting to be reminded of the rape is a good reason to just kill it off? Again, how sick and twisted. I'm sorry that the raped woman has to be reminded of the rape for 9 months, but killing the child is not really the best way to deal withe the situation. Get through the 9 months and put the child up for adoption. Then move on with your life.

You have NO idea what someone in that situation would be going through. "Get through it, Move on with your life" - yes, because it's THAT easy. Women have committed suicide over rape - and you treat it like it's nothing. The fact you can even ATTEMPT to call those women sick and twisted is completely pathetic when you're saying this bullshit. YOU are sick and twisted for believing this would ever be okay. I thank God most people disagree with you and that this would therefore never happen.

What I meant was don't make this a matter of men controlling women. I can see how woman want to defend their rights to control what goes on with their body but once agian- that does not mean the woman should be able to terminate the child. It's still a human being. In situations in which a human life is at stake, I really do believe that this 'women's control over their body' should be sacrificed.

Basically, a guy can rape a woman, and not only have control over her for the minutes the attack is taking place, but control her for the next 9 months, at least? That should NEVER be allowed to happen.

In a situation where the pregnancy has began from someone TAKING the control from her, I don't think a woman should then have to relinquish control because you don't like it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Do I belive in them? What, like Santa, and the easter bunny and shit? Well yea, obviously they are real.


ANYway. Basically, wether anyone thinks its right or not is irrelevant. It needs to legal, becuase, suprise, people will do it wether its illegal or not. If they have no means of doing it in a humane, legal way, it will be done in very, very INhumane, illegal ways. The level of legality isnt going to stop anyone who has made the decision to go through with this.

Do I, personally belive there are ANY circumstances were this decision should be made? Absolutely not. Regardless of the scenario, the child who was created did not choose the cirucumstances under which it was made, so it should not be condemned(this is of course excluding cases were both mother and child will die becuase of childbirth, or if the womans life will be ended becuase of the childbirth). However, I am not naive enough to belive making it illegal would stop it from happening.

Your religous / morality beleifs have fuck all to do with legal matters, and they shouldnt. A safe, humane means of doing this needs to exist, or you open the door to horrific things, and multiple people involved dying (the mother, as well as child).

Never the right route. Should be legal.

 

[Барбоса]

It is a touchy subject as the thread title suggests but only because people want to have a blanket treatment for the dilemma. Most of the time, this kind of approach is either unworkable or unfair.

I am pro-choice but the thought of it does make me feel uneasy because it involves the ending of a potential life.

However, anyone who says that a woman who has either been raped or whose foetus is going to kill her should not have the right to remove what is essentially a physical reminder of her emotional trauma in the former case and a tumour in the latter is blinded by blanket religiosity or morality.

Abortions should be available to those who NEED them and because there is no real way to calculate that need then they have to become open to those who WANT them too. However, arguments of abortions becoming a form of contraception are ludicrous. An invasive, emotionally scarring, potentially dangerous experience over a condom or a pill? What choice would you make?

 

[Mustang Sally]

I can see how woman want to defend their rights to control what goes on with their body but once agian- that does not mean the woman should be able to terminate the child. It's still a human being.

Unless the woman is expected to die in child birth or the child is expect to live a life in agony with some crippling disease

So, there you go. On one hand, you're telling us that no woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy.

But, on the other hand, you're giving us circumstances in which she can.

The woman shouldn't be allowed to decide for herself. But you can decide for her.

Great, just great.

 

[Vash21]

In the cases of rape and incest, how do you expect to control that? If the law changed now, all you'd do is get women coming to doctors asking for abortions because of either of those 2 issues. How would you sort the liars from those telling the truth in the few months you have?

How about pergury an jail time, I don't believe in Abortions for birth control, I l believe that they should have the morning after pill in the gumball machines at the mall, and in the vending machines next to the condoms. The morning after pill is something different altogether. I do not under any circumstance believe that public funding should go to pay for abortions.

I also don't believe that a woman should have the right to abort a mans child if that man is willing to take responsibility for that child, not really sure of a mans legal rights in a situation like that but I am willing to bet that they reside with the mother.

 

[HBK-aholic]

How about pergury an jail time, I don't believe in Abortions for birth control, I l believe that they should have the morning after pill in the gumball machines at the mall, and in the vending machines next to the condoms. The morning after pill is something different altogether. I do not under any circumstance believe that public funding should go to pay for abortions.

Your post brings up 2 very good points, which have until now been ignored in the thread. I disagree with them, but they're still very interesting, relevant points.

Anyway, the part in bold, while I can see why people would have a problem with this, I don't think it should work into real life. If there were no funding for abortions, it'd lead to those in the middle-class, well paid occupations being able to afford to have an abortion, whereas those in the lower-paid professions would be forced to keep the child; and poverty is often a reason people choose abortion in the first place. I'm against anything like this which excludes poorer members of society on the sole basis they don't have a few thousand pounds. Money shouldn't decide whether you can have this procedure - there's too much at stake.

I also don't believe that a woman should have the right to abort a mans child if that man is willing to take responsibility for that child, not really sure of a mans legal rights in a situation like that but I am willing to bet that they reside with the mother.

This is a major issue, and the only one that makes me think twice about my position - but it is still the same. The law doesn't take in the fathers opinion, as far as I'm aware. I think any woman who has an abortion should have talked it through with the potential father, and taken his views on board. But I don't think he should automatically be able to decide what she does, in the same way, if it were males who became pregnant, the female shouldn't have the final say. As it stands, the final choice to go through with this should always reside with the female, as she's the one going through this. It's a horrible way to put it, and would be a horrible situation to be in, but I don't believe anyone else should be able to tell her what to do.

 

[Vash21]

Promoting abstinence is not working. When the conservatives figure that out, then things can move forward. Unfortunately you have fanatics on both sides who muck everything up. As I said before partial birth abortions are an abomination, I don't know how any doctor could sleep after performing one of those, its make me sick even thinking about it and there are people out there who think that women should have the right to have that procedure. Then on the other hand you have rednecks going out and killing abortion doctors.

People need education, they have to be informed that there are better ways to prevent pregnancy, and there should be ways for them to correct their mistakes sooner rather than later.

 

[I hate those Christians]

In some cases someone may very well have to step in and dictate what a woman should do, for the sole purpose of the woman not being emotionally all there and aint thinking straight.

Having a "Abortion" is a emotional rollercoaster so if the woman isn't all there, the loved one has the right to question there decision. I guess not straight out tell them what to do but have some control over the situation.

 

[TheMizardofOzsome]

Well based on some people's post, being that if a woman is raped but has no proof or will take over the 9 months, And give the rapist control that might give them the satisfaction of getting one more over the woman, I am not saying abortion should be as common as condoms, but in cases (rape, broken condom, defect, would be still born, etc.) you should let the mother decide, and to shock you I am "Conservative" but honestly think a bunch of old men (and a few women) should decide what a women does with her body.