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Do Heel Champions Need Clean Wins?

Depends who it is!! If he is established then why not!! e.g. Stone Cold as a heel, why would he cheat?? we all know he doesn't need to, because he is a good wrestler and HE CAN win cleanly!!! But then again he wasn't booked as a cowardly heel like Miz.. I don't really care how he wins, but when that night comes when Miz wins cleanly against a big star, then we will all know he is ready to be a top heel that doesn't need cheating tactics!!
 
If a heel champion is being push as an unstoppable force or as formidable opponent that can win in any match then I would say have them win clean.

If, like The Miz they portray a heel champion that will do anything to win regardless of the stipulations; then don't make him win clean most of the time. However that kind of champion needs to win clean sometimes to solidify his validity to the championship. If you can't win clean at all, then there is no point holding the championship at all
 
The only reason Miz should be getting clean wins is because before he was champion he was getting clean victories with the SCF. It's already part of his character so for him to not be getting clean wins now makes him be out of character and taints his image.
 
Heels that you think would physically dominate a challenger do need clean wins.
Heels with a manager or often rely on underhanded tactics don't need clean victories.
 
In most cases, I don't believe that heel champs need clean wins in order to be viewed as dominant champions. When you look at heels along the lines of The Miz or Sheamus, heels that are depecited as being extremely bragadocious or cowardly or as bullies, getting wins through cheating only serves to generate more heat for them. I do believe that an occassional clean win can work well, especially as long as it's a hard fought match. Miz's clean win over John Morrison on Raw last Monday did help him a lot. It was a great, competitive match and Miz looked like a champ determined to keep his title by any means necessary.

When you look at monster heels that are champs, such as Vader for instance, I do think that most of the wins need to be clean or at least "cleanish". A monster heel is generally billed and built as this physical powerhouse, a human juggernaut, a freak of nature, etc. that is nearly unbeatable in a physical sense. Take that away and you're not really left with a whole helluva lot.
 
Heel champions don't need clean wins. After all, cheating is what makes them heels in the first place. I've followed Ric Flair his whole career, and when he was a heel champion he cheated in the majority of his matches and it didn't hurt his credibility at all. He's still considered by many to be the best ever. So my answer is no.
 
It all depends on wha he WWE wants to do with said heel. I belive at first Miz was just a transitional champ until he brought all the press he has to the WWE. I do not remember a title win being so publicized. Thats why he was not going over anyone cleanly, but now with all this ttention I think the WWE will start to put him over other stars cleanly to make hm more credible, and not so much of the cowardly I am lucky to be in this position heel.

If HHH never went over anyone cleanl in his mega heel days he would have not been a mega heel. So yes Heels need clean wins to proclaim dominance.
 
It all depends on wha he WWE wants to do with said heel. I belive at first Miz was just a transitional champ until he brought all the press he has to the WWE. I do not remember a title win being so publicized. Thats why he was not going over anyone cleanly, but now with all this ttention I think the WWE will start to put him over other stars cleanly to make hm more credible, and not so much of the cowardly I am lucky to be in this position heel.

If HHH never went over anyone cleanl in his mega heel days he would have not been a mega heel. So yes Heels need clean wins to proclaim dominance.

Miz is a transistional champion, I don't see him holding the belt past Elimination Chamber, and once he loses it it'll be quite some time before he gets it back, if ever. That win over Morrison will be one of the few clean wins he has in his title reign.

HHH cheated quite a bit when he was heel. I don't remember him ever beating The Rock cleanly. While a clean win here or there helps, they don't have to win clean very often as long as they put on entertaining matches.
 
This answer is very simple: NO!. People that believe that a win for a heel is necessary is either a big fan of the guy or has a wrong idea of wrestling. The heel has to be hated by every single one that has a breath. People are talking about credibility but that doesn't matter, in fact the heel should make people believe that he doesn't belong in that place so that the audience will hate him even more. So as far as Miz goes he and the WWE are playing it right by not making him have clean wins.
 
First of all, you need to define clean. HHH cheated, but he still looked strong. Secondly, wwe markets their roster more on persona. Heels are no longer just cheaters, but pricks. You don't have to cheat to be a heel. It's how you play to the audience. It's a difficult question to answer subjectively, impossible to do objectively.
 
What defines a clean win?

I've seen heels try to win by underhanded means during a match only to be thwarted by the ref or another face; then at the end of the match, they get a clean pin. To me, this is a clean win.

I think I like these types of wins better than a win with no interference whatsoever and no underhanded tactics.

It shows that they are still the bad guy who resorts to underhanded deeds but it also shows that, if needed, they can get a win without heel tactics.
 
Like most have said it mostly depends on who the heels is. Guys like Khali, Sheamus and Mark Henry should not be resorting to count outs and DQs to retain titles, when they spend 6 months obliterating people to get their title shots in the first place.

But why can't heels win just by being smarter than their opponents like Chris Jericho or Edge tend to do? Ok Edge is probably one of the top ten 'cheap victory' champions, but there are times where he does simply outsmart his opponent.

Look back to 2000, Edge and Christian (posing as Los Conquistadors) vs The Hardyz for the tag titles. Edge and Christian had spent the better part of the year being DQ'd or counted out, or relying on outside help, but in this particular match, they manipulated their opponents and then beat them fair and square. At no point do E+C cheat in that whole match. Matt and Jeff spend the entire time trying to take the masks off their opponents to prove that it's really E+C, and when Matt pulls Edge's mask off, only to find a 2nd one underneath, Matt is caught off guard for a split second, giving Christian the chance to hit the Unprettier, 1,2,3, new tag champs.

Take Chris Jericho's fued with Rey Mysterio a year or so ago. The match that stands out to me of the whole fued is when Jericho ripped Rey's mask off his face as he was executing the 619, and then rolled Rey up as he was covering himself.

He didn't cheat per se because Rey wasn't blinded or anything, Jericho simply took advantage of Rey's weakness, which was his need to protect his heritage over his need to win the match, and Jericho regained the IC title.

Wade Barrett beating Cena due to Harris and McGuillicutty interfering, would also be acceptable to me. The occassional run in, where the heel actually gets the 1, 2, 3 as a result and not gets DQ'd as a result, would also be acceptable to me personally, but when heels just go and grab weapons when they can't get the pin or just walk off time and time again is just lame. It doesn't make me hate the heel more, it makes me hate the bookers more for allowing the match to end like that A-GAIN!

And they need to stop focusing so much on heels HAVE to be booed and faces HAVE to be cheered. This is the age of the anti-hero. Assholes are still cooler than goody two shoes.

Who got over the most 10 years ago by being grade A assholes? The Rock and Austin.

And why does every heel have to be cowardly? Look at just about any other form of entertainment with good and bad guys. Does the bad guy always run away from the hero and hide to avoid getting beaten? Or are there some villains who kick the living shit out of the hero for ages only to lose in the end anyway?

Wouldn't Dragonball Z have been really shit if everytime Goku appeared the head villain had run away?

That's what was good about Kane's title reign. The guy actually won the majority of his matches without cheating. He was actually dominant in his title reign and lost in a multi-man format. The only thing wrong with Kane's reign was that he only ever wrestled people who he'd wrestled countless times in recent years, so it seemed old before it started. But what was fresh and new about it, was the heel champ was actually defeating his opponents, more often than not, without help.

Ok Paul Bearer shone a light in Taker's eyes at HIAC. Big whoop, stupid angle, Kane hits the tombstone, still a clean win in my book. He DEFINITELY got a clean win the month before. Month after Nexus came out, well we STILL don't know why that happened, probably just to set up Barrett/Taker, plus has there EVER been a Buried Alive Match where there wasn't a run in? And then he had a draw with Edge and lost the PPV after that. Week in and week out on SD, Kane kicked ass and never ran away from anyone.

And what about Kurt Angle? Did he take cheap count outs and DQs to retain titles or did he twist ankles until the guy was tapping? That's right, the latter. If every heel is supposed to be a coward, why did Kurt Angle make people like HBK and Hulk Hogan tap out?

The answer there of course, is that that was in 2001-5 and Angle is an Olympic Gold Medalist. It's 6 years later and we've got Sheamus, who embodies a Celtic Warrior, smacking Orton with a chair immediately after he kicks out of Brogue Kicks to keep the title.

If we're talking about Miz, then no he doesn't need clean victories over someone like Orton, because the guy became champ via a cheap MiTB win. Guys like RVD, Kennedy, Edge, CM Punk and other MiTB winners, had at least had fueds with ME talent before they got handed the briefcase. Swagger and Miz hadn't fueded with anyone outside of the mid-card, so it wouldn't be believable for Miz to get a clean win over say Edge or Cena, so i understand why he has to resort to DQ's, run-ins etc.

But Sheamus, a 2x champion, KOTR and the guy that took out HHH from active wrestling, needs to hit Orton with a chair in order to retain? When HHH has made Orton his bitch more times than most people can remember? That equation just doesn't seem to make sense to me in terms of logic.
 
A really awesome question and I can see both sides.

I feel disappointed when a heel wimps out of a match and gets purposely counted out and then that's it, especially when the match had a big build up. For example, at Summerslam in 2009, Randy Orton defended his WWE title to John Cena and the match was restarted like 4 times because Orton got counted out and kept bending the rules to prevent Cena winning because Cena was more or less on top throughout. Orton got the win in the end after a clean spot and 3 count but the whole match was messy, and although I liked it and found it fun to watch, I was somewhat let down and disappointed that we didn't see the two men really fight together in a clean match from start to finish. It was hyped so much and then the end results was a scrappy and confusing match up.
But then again, it just put more and more heat onto Orton because people wanted Cena to win. When Orton got counted out first time around, when McMahon made the order to restart, well the crowd was on fire and pumped because Cena could then have won. So Orton portrayed himself as a coward and he was scared of Cena and that hed win the WWE title, so Orton backed out and tried to just runaway. This did wonders for his reign and heel character because he couldn't beat Cena in a full on clean match. It was kinda annoying to watch, but that was the idea.

So I'm in two minds. I want heels to get clean wins because the heels are good wrestlers too and still need to build themselves into a credible wrestler and look good in ring. But then again if they always got clean wins, it wouldn't give them as much heat than if they cheated to win. And there whole job description is to get heat and be hated. Cheating gets that.

All in all, I think it should be a mixture. What I hated about the heel Legacy stable was the fact that Orton never won a match cleanly. Legacy always interferred at the end of Raw and stood dominant at the end. It was annoying because the raw main events didn't need to be interferred with all the time. But at same time, it made people hate Legacy more because they screwed up every raw main event. Heels need to do this to look like cowards and get heat, but some also need clean wins. Because some heel wrestlers are generally better than the faces in ring, so they need clean wins too and not just look like cowards because it looks stupid because they have no reason to wimp out and run away, cause they could easily beat their opponent anyway.
 
I think that it really does depend on the champ. Ferbian was right.
A heel champion should either look weak, and therefore be hated, but keep everyone "over" who faces him...

Or shoudl be booked to look -very- strong, so that sure, he may make a couple of people look weak along the way, but when he finally gets beaten, it gets the face who beats him majorly over.
 
I agree with your statement, heels have to do what they have to get hated more and more. This will make the fans want him to lose it even more so when he finally does the face is more reputable for defeating the undefeatable heel.
 
The main reason why heels get dirty victories over their Super face (aka John Cena) is so they gain even more heat...Heat=Heels which in turn =Dirty wins/dirty tactics to get the win
 
Yes it's true, the type of heel is important but I don't think it's the telling sign. For me competition is the real important thing, a heel can be any kind of heel as long as at some point he looks like he can wrestle. See obviously the more dominating heels like sheamus or barrett need this because they have to win clean but just be real nasty about how they do it, but even someone like the Miz, he needs to show that he CAN wrestle because that way he gets so much more heat knowing he COULD win the match clean but isn't going to risk it, he's just going to resort to his old tricks. Going the whole 15 rounds and just ending it with a knuckle duster is a great way to make people hate you, it's like the guy who's losing in a video game so he just quits and storms off.

See Miz has arguably not had a single clean win yet as champion. Lawler match - Cole interference, cashing in on orton - orton was weak and even the match last week with morrison is a dirty shade of clean because although A-Ri is allowed in the match, no DQ, it is pretty arguable and scrupulous for him to have the guy there when Morrison has no back-up, also the ending... he never incapacitated morrison personally, just picked up the pieces when he made a false move. But although he hasn't technically won "fairly", he hasn't really looked weak at any point, even in the lawler match he looked pretty strong, looking like he was going to win before lawler pushed him off the turnbuckle suddenly through a table. Every match he has been in, he looked fairly strong, and that's all they need him to appear as really.

But no to answer the question, depending on the type of heel he is he never ever needs a clean win for me. All he needs is to look good even when cheating, and in some cases a clean win will hurt his character, part of the reason why miz's title run is pretty promising.
 
i belive that in certain cases heels do need clean wins........
its been mentioned before that clean wins should be a MUST when facing a jobber or a midcard, but when facing a main event face, dirty tactics, short cuts are what a heel MUST do in order to retain his title
in the miz's case, he should be booked as a vulnerable champion not a weak one, as we have seen he is capable of beating JoMo but he has to cheat in order to retain against RKO.... but heel champions SHOULD get a few clean wins as well.....
somebody mentioned the fact that HHH's mega heel run was full of cheating and dirty wins and thats true but he won CLEAN SOMETIMES!...... lets go to his third reign..... he beat cactus TWICE in a row CLEAN in their street fight and HIAC matches, lets fast foward to his seventh reign, he won the title CLEAN against HBK in a 2 out of 3 Falls, then later in his reign and being a coward and getting DQs and dirty wins against Kevin Nash, when they met at HIAC in bad blood 03 HHH took it to Nash and won CLEAN...those are two examples about how a heel champion can absolutely WIN clean against a face, true HHH and the miz are different kinds of wrestlers and champions but some heels when in the corner go out swinging to retain the title and are capable of beating the face straight up..... but that can be frustrating some times because you realize they could beat the face if they wanted to but they are just cowards.....and thats what a heel does, he is a coward who just doesnt want to fight the face. the problem in Miz's case is that he is NOT ESTABLISHED as a wrestlers or as a champion so his reign is not believable, because who did he beat before being champion? what FEUD did he have that made him look good? oh and the cena "feud" doesnt count... the miz called out cena like 8 weeks straight and when cena actually showed up he whipped the floors with him.... and his "feud" with JoMo doesnt count either... they have a rivalry not a feud, i dont recall them wrestling a series of matches on ppv except their two encounters in bragging rights 09, and their raw title match a few weeks ago....
 
Heels need clean wins some times. If all they do is cheat to win then people will think that they aren't able to beat anyone without cheating. Then what happens when that person becomes a face? When someones a face then usually they win most of their matches without cheating. That just makes it seem weird when someone is a heel they can't beat someone without cheating and they become a face who absolutely dominates someone.
 

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