Do Heel Champions Need Clean Wins?

[The Brain]

I have read some comments on the forum about how Miz needs some clean wins to establish himself as a worthy champion. The same was said about Sheamus when he was champion. I’m not entirely sure I believe this. A heel is supposed to be a dastardly character that will do what is necessary to get what he wants regardless of rules. Cheating to win is the natural way of the heel. The wrestling world is not meant to be a level playing field. The good guys are supposed to be better than the bad guys. When a heel champion cheats to retain his title he makes himself more hated, makes the fans want to see him drop the title more, and helps the face keep his credibility. A heel is not worried about credibility. He’s worried about results.

Years ago heel champions didn’t even bother to cheat to win. They were perfectly content taking a loss by count out or disqualification in order to hang onto a title. If a match wasn’t going a heel’s way he would literally roll out of the ring, grab the title, and leave. Running may have made him look weak, but remember he is a heel. Cowardliness is a fitting trait for a heel. Despite the obvious cowardliness we always had the heel announcer telling us that it was a smart decision and not a cowardly one by the heel. Each dirty win or cheap intentional loss just made the anticipation greater for when the heel finally dropped the title. The Honky Tonk Man did this throughout his 15 month title reign. He got intentionally counted out or disqualified over and over against guys like Randy Savage and Brutus Beefcake. The fans hated him for it. When The Ultimate Warrior finally took the title the fans went absolutely crazy. That was because they hated Honky so much, not because they loved Warrior. Warrior became an overnight star for finally ending Honky’s reign. If the heel continued to get clean wins over the faces he would eventually earn the respect of the fans and become a face himself thus not doing his job.

I can see a heel getting a clean win over someone lower on the card. For example I have no problem with Miz successfully and cleanly defending the title against R Truth on Raw. However, when it comes time for ppv and Miz is against a main event face I feel it’s better for him to fall back on his heel ways.

 

[Ferbian]

It really depends.

The cowardly heel (ala Chris Jericho) could use a clean victory every now and then. But he most certainly do NOT need it. Because he's a cowardly calculating guy, obviously he'll take a chance.

However, let's take a guy like Khali's heel run. He should be getting clean victories at least every now and then. He's a dominating guy, a big guy and a strong guy. He's booked to look that way, and shouldn't be getting DQ victories and interference victories, or for that sake cheating victories. Not as much as he gets clean victories.

So it really depends what heel you got booked for the match. And how he's displayed. A cowardly heel doesn't get less cowardly from a clean victory, it can help him get the whole "I'm better than you" thing going. But it's not needed as much as it is needed and should be preferred for the dominating power heel.

 

[Dzone]

Ferbian is right, it really depends on the type of heel character. In the case of The Miz cowardly wins would be the way forward, people would hate him a lot more and he looks like the type to do so. Whereas Sheamus looks like literally a Celtic Warrior so sneaky wins looks a bit odd there.

Say you have someone like Mark Henry, The World's Strongest Man, but as a face he looses most his matches (most recently to Rhodes I believe?). Whereas when he was heel with the same gimmick (and a manager, I might add) he destroyed everyone which was believable *look at the guy... ¬.¬*.

So all in all if you go for the "Opportunist" gimmick (like Edge's) sneaky/"cheap" wins are the way to go but if he's a badass guy with muscles on his eyeballs then sneaky wins look... weird.

 

[WJDwjdWJDwjd]

Noooooooo. The Miz does NOT need to win cleanly. I don't think many heels need to win cleanly except in absolutely necessary situations like it being part of the stipulation. I like how Ferbian mentioned how Jericho often retained his various titles. JBL was another heel that used cowardly tactics that worked to his advantage many times. JBL was the longest reigning champion on Smackdown as well. Clean wins mean nothing to heels. Heat factor is one of the biggest variables in a championship run for heels. If the heel is getting over like that and as long as they are getting a good reaction, there doesn't need to be "credibility" to their run. "Credibility" of a champion is more a face thing. Look at John Cena for instance. John Cena had an absolute tear a few years ago as champion. I think it was 10 or 11 months out of the year or something like that. Names like Cena, Stone Cold, The Rock, Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart and so many others in the WWE as well as other competitors in various companies relied on credibility as a FACE champion. This is obviously nothing new in the wrestling world. As a heel, credibility means nothing. How you USE the obvious fact that you have no credibility (ala bragging about beating people single handedly when you obviously cheated) is the formula for getting over as a heel champion.

 

[PunksNo1Fan]

Like said by Ferbian, it all depends on who the Heel Champ is.

People like The Miz could get through a title reign with no clean wins under their belts at all. They've got people like Alex Riley & Michael Cole who could easily get the a victory, through any means.
Then you've got the heels who could do with getting clean wins to make them look a credible wrestler. If a guy like Tyler Reks ever became WH Champ, then they'd have to get mainly clean wins, 'cos you never really see them associating with anyone. Plus, he has brute force which can allow him to pick up these wins.

So yeah, agreeing with the guys above, all depending on who champ is, depends on how they should win over their matches.

 

[LSN80]

Good question.

I think it depends on the type of heel that he is. I dont think Miz is one of those who needs it to establish himself as a "good champion." A heel can be a "good champion" by keeping the championship in whatever way necessary. He needs a Randy Orton-esque type of strategy as Orton employed during his "Age of Orton" 2007-08 title reign.

Orton won the title after HHH had competed twice already that night at No Mercy. A "clean" win, by the standards of the LMS match, but certainly a heelish win. He retained against HBK at both Cyber Sunday(via DQ) and at Survivor Series when HBK was banned from using the Superkick. He retained at Armageddon against Chris Jericho due to JBL's interference. He got his only straight up win by defeating a "lesser" opponent, Jeff Hardy, at The Royal Rumble. He retained the title at No Way Out against John Cena after slapping the ref when he couldn't put Cena away. Finally, he retained the title against HHH and Cena at Wrestlemania when HHH hit the pedigree on Cena, and he opportunisitically kicked HHH off and pinned Cena.

Miz doesn't need the clean wins, unless it's against a definitively lesser opponent. His type of heel doesn't. He needs to do whatever is necessary to remain champion. At times, that may mean geting himself disqualified(like Orton at No Way Out) and at times, by being opportunistic( Ortonvs HHH and Cena @WM), and also by taking maximumj advantage of the rules(Orton vs HBK at Survivor Series.).

There's a fine line between being perceived as a vulnerable champion, and as a weak champion. A vulnerable champion is someone who can lose the title at any time, which is hbow Miz should be booked. A weak champion is one who can't retain the title or win a match WITHOUT the help of others or getting himself disqualified. There's a fine line between both, and I think any heel champion needs to be booked as being vulnerable(unless they're a massive heel, like Kane or Khali) and capable of using every tool they have to retain their title. The monster champion should only use underhanded tactics when faced with someone whose equally dominant in stature. It really depends on the type of champion. In the case of Miz, he needs to be booked as the vulnerable champion who does whatever is needed to retain the title.

 

[Undertaker the 5th]

I think they do to a certain extent.

I hate how a heel can lose 5 times against the same guy. They both do heel/face turns and the ex heel beats the guy who beat him in the past 5 times with a clean victory. It makes it unbelievable. Now if you think about the Miz, and how he has to win all his matches by cheating, then what will happen when he turns face? Will he beat all the guys clean like faces are used to or will he just be considered a failure as face because he can not win clean?

 

[hatehabsforever]

As a general rule of thumb, I do not think that the heel champions need clean wins. As the Brain states, heels typically do heelish things to win: they cheat, they deceive, they do all of the dastardly acts that make them a heel in the first place, which pisses off the wrestling fans in the process, earning them even greater heel heat.

Having said this, though, I personally believe that they do need clean wins on occasion to give themselves more credibility, rather than cheating to win every single time. I don't mean only against lesser talent, I mean in main event, PPV calibre matches on occasion as well. I would love, for example, to see the Miz beat Randy Orton tonight fair and square. No Alex Riley involvement. No behind the ref's back activity. Pin him 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring, then cement his heel status by gloating about it afterwards, or doing a post-match beatdown, etc.,

One thing that has always bothered me, for examnple about Edge's career is that even though he's a multi-time champion, he's been a heel champion, with the vast majority of his victories being cheap, heel victories. Which is OK, but interspersed amongst them, I wish there had been a couple more legit wins. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes because the bulk of his success has been of the cheaper variety.

Just once, I would like to see the MITB winner successfully redeem the briefcase in a non-cheap manner. Have him come out and the beginning of a show and state that he will be redeeming his briefcase later tonight , regardless of how the rest of the evening plays out. Have him win a real match, rather than simply exploit a decimated champion. The Miz came the closest to that this year, when even though he took advantage of a beaten-down Orton at the hands of Nexus, he did actually have a real match to win. Unlike most years when the champion is in a pile in the corner of the ring, and the MITB winner simply comes out and pins him with no real match having occurred.

Let's face it, heel champions will pretty much always win by cheap heelish tactics, and that's OK. I would just like to see the occasional legit victory from them, just to keep some semblance of reality amongst the kayfabe.

 

[MOExecution]

I think when it all comes down to it a Heel needs at least a few good wins.
Yeah, I understand a heel is suppose to be cowardly, but sometimes I believe that people totally contradict themselves. First, people are saying that Heels do not need clean wins they can win their matches sneakily, but you have guys for example; Sheamus and Jack Swagger who barely even defended the title fairly being constantly criticized for not having a solid World Championship run. But then now you guys are saying that a Heel needs to win sneakily, but then wouldn't that drop value in his title run? Think about that for a little bit.

I think people bring up good points. It does depend on what type of heel you are. Somebody like Sheamus should have retained the title fairly a few times to really solidify him not only as a worthy World Champion, but when he loses the title a worthy challenger. Someone like Edge who's gimmick is based off of Ultimate Opportunist he should win sneakily, but at the same time I do believe that he should win a few matches fairly (which he has).

Sheamus... When he was the WWE Champion I hated the guy because he was a new guy and won the title souly off of being in good terms with Triple H. If he wasn't in good terms with Triple H I would go off a limb and say he would have been winning his first title around a year later from his first reign. Sheamus never impressed me as Champion... A year later I like the guy, but because he proved himself. Once again like in the second paragraph it depends; new guys like Sheamus and Miz SHOULD NEVER win the title unclean in their first defenses! But as they gain credibility and the challenges get tougher I would pass a few victories won in a heelish manner. Guys who are solidified for example Edge can get away with it.

So I think not only what kind of heel you are whether you are a an Opportunist or a Dominate figure you are, but also the experience as well.

 

[WWEFreak]

Just once, I would like to see the MITB winner successfully redeem the briefcase in a non-cheap manner. Have him come out and the beginning of a show and state that he will be redeeming his briefcase later tonight , regardless of how the rest of the evening plays out. Have him win a real match, rather than simply exploit a decimated champion. The Miz came the closest to that this year, when even though he took advantage of a beaten-down Orton at the hands of Nexus, he did actually have a real match to win. Unlike most years when the champion is in a pile in the corner of the ring, and the MITB winner simply comes out and pins him with no real match having occurred

I beleive RVD did it at One Night Stand against John Cena

Anywayz back to the topic at hand. I do think heels need clean victories once in a while. yes they use heelish tactic like cheating to win. But at some point they need to be able to win cleanly against a main event face to show they can be a main event superstar.
but the problem i always wonder is, how do you book a heel superstar pin cleanly over a face superstar without ruining his momentum?
Also EG used heelish tactics as a face :]

 

[Arkham Noir]

However, let's take a guy like Khali's heel run. He should be getting clean victories at least every now and then. He's a dominating guy, a big guy and a strong guy. He's booked to look that way, and shouldn't be getting DQ victories and interference victories, or for that sake cheating victories. Not as much as he gets clean victories.

That's a good point and I think the same should be said for Sheamus. What sense does it make for them to build their heat by dominating guys every week, only to have them get a cheap win. It doesn't make any sense. Plus, does someone Sheamus' size realistically need to get dirty wins?

As for someone like the Miz, he is a chicken shit heel in every single way. That kind if character doesn't need clean wins, and it probably helps him more if he doesn't get clean wins. JBL was the perfect example for this. I honestly can't think of him winning any matches clean and he was an awesome heel champion.

 

[RendarSelin]

Well I would say it depends on the champion as well. I've never thought there was much to be said about dirty wins for a heel. However, heel champions keep getting buried in WWE with constant losses and DQ wins. (see Jack Swagger) I think it's more important to develop the character than worry about getting clean wins. I think Jack Swagger could have been considered a bit more considerable and more of a heel if he had used sleazy tactics like holding the tights, using the ropes, distracting the ref, whatever...instead of constantly being beat and escaping with the title at PPVs with a DQ.

 

[JGlass]

As other posters have said, it depends on what type of heel they are.

Monster heels need clean wins. They need to just steamroll opponents into the ground. That said, they can also benefit from dirty wins, if you consider matches with chokes, ring rope abuse, and low blows dirty.

Crafty heels, like Edge or Orton during their last heel runs, need a mixture of clean and dirty wins. They need to establish themselves as good wrestlers that can win matches by their own merit when they are facing someone who is about as competitive as they are. However, when they face the John Cenas and Triple Hs of the WWE, they need to win dirty to show that they are inferior to the face, but can win by tricking the face into a bad spot.

Overconfident and cowardly heels like The Miz should almost exclusively cheat to win. They should be able to beat jobbers by clean means, and they should be able to compete with midcarders and maineventers up to a point, but should always find themselves in dire straights towards the end of the match. When that happens, they need to start going for things like manager interference, weapon use, tight grabbing, and other illegal methods.

Heels don't have to be strong wrestlers, they have to make the audiences hate them. If the audiences hate heels, they will pay money to see faces beat them, and if the face doesn't beat the heel because of some cheap win, they will pay money the next time because in hopes that the face will win the second time around.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I agree with what everyone has said. It depends upon the type of the heel. A monster heel has to win cleanly and in a dominating manner while a cowardly heel need not win cleanly at all.

I just feel that if you want to give a heel a clean victory the best place to do so is in a triple threat or a fatal fourway match. That way you can say that the heel won cleanly and in the same breath mention that the case might have been different in a one on one match. That is how you protect everybody's credibility.

 

[Black Snow]

I believe any heel champion needs clean wins over guys who booked beneath them. For example, Miz should get clean wins over the likes of R-Truth, Evan Bourne, David Hart Smith, etc. This may seem obvious but in recent years its gotten to the point where heel champs are winning by DQ and count out against midcard and upper midcard talent.

There's a fine line between being a beatable champion and being a beaten champion.

By nature, heels should cheat to win with great frequency but you can do that while still selling a heel champion as someone who can win without cheating. Take Kurt Angle for example. Even during his first WWE title reign he cheated to win the title at No Mercy thanks to Rikishi interfering, he used his brother at Survivor Series, he was in the right place at the right time at Armageddon, and Austin got involved at the Rumble. Angle built up healthy reign but he never won cleanly. Still, he came off as a top wrestler. You need to get creative with interference and not make it always feel premeditated by the champion.

As long as a heel champ gets solid wins on RAW and SD they can retain cheaply. It's only when ALL wins feel like flukes that the champion looks truly weak in a bad way.

 

[triple_b2k]

IMO I think Heel's should get clean wins more often on PPV's but on TV, they should be able to cheat/steel victories.

The past few heel champions (at least on Raw) have been winning by flukes or interference. They should get more clean victories to show them as a main eventer. Pretty much reinforcing what other people are saying here.

Good topic

 

[JDX]

Like some have said already, it depends on what type heel you are. Every heel should cheat but small guys should cheat more and big guys should dominate more. I do think there should be more tecnically clean wins but morally can be considered heelish. Small packages, roll ups, low blows, duct tape (really!!!!!!), etc. They really made Sheamus into a small guy heel and I never got it. Let him cheat a little against Orton or Cena and then totally bulldoze them. Unlike Show or Khali, Sheamus with the hair and skin had an old school cartoon villian look. the real Superman had Bizzaro and plenty of trouble before winning.

Examples of really good ME heels that cheated and dominated: Punk, Edge, Y2J, HHH, HBK, Kane

 

[Fred R.]

Heels need a clean win once in a while to keep the fans from burning out on cheating and intentional disqualifications. If they don't get clean wins, then they have to drop and regain the title often like Ric Flair to continue to keep the fans interested.

I think for the Miz to succeed, whether he is treated as the main event or not is more important than clean wins. If they put him the middle of Raw instead of the main event slot and keep John Cena on last, the Miz will become an unimportant champion similar to guys like Sheamus and Chris Jericho. Too many champions in the last 10 years had their title reigns sabotaged by HHH and Cena keeping the spotlight off the champion's matches and feuds.

 

[blackmetalbuick]

I disagree with the whole "it depends" thing. ALL "SUPERSTARS" should be capable of a clean win. No it doesn't "depend" on if they're trying to play a certain type of heel. Heels don't have to be such cliche cartoon characters that they literally can't win without some stupid gimmick method. These guys are supposed to be the top performers in the world. Even a heel can hit their finisher and get a legit three count, what is so wrong with that? Take someone like Sheamus, he's huge, he's vicious, but as soon as he's a heel, he needs to be pulling tights and raking eyes? No. He's still a force to be reckoned with. And that really goes for any heel, because like I said, these are supposed to be the best "sports entertainers" in the world. Good guy or bad guy, they should all be able to get a clean win.

WWE has become so wimpy and pathetic with being too scared to do something different with characters. I was just watching some biography of a wrestler on TV, I forget who, and Vince McMahon was interviewed and saying how the characters are all more or less shades of gray, not just good or bad. Obviously this interview took place a while back. These days this couldn't be less true except for maybe one or two guys. They've resorted to goody two shoes faces and dastardly villian heels. There's no in between anymore.

Heels should be able to win clean, and god forbid, a face should be able to lose cleanly without acting like it's going to derail their entire career. I'm sick fo being babied and having my intelligence insulted with the fact that there are no shades of gray anymore. Everything is black and white so us stupid rasslin fans can understand it. Oh wait, it goes back to the PG thing and the fact that their target audience of 8 year olds wouldn't understand a blurring of the lines between good and bad guys. Sigh.

 

[CenaSux4Life78]

Like everyone else, I do agree. It depends on who the heel champ is at the time. But, getting clean wins doesn't hurt a heel champ either.

In regards to Miz, I think its going to be mixed. We all know he can win his matches without help, but cheating wont be a bad thing either. I think that, depending on how TLC goes tonight, will decide what kind of heel champ Miz will be in the long run.

Since there are no rules in the Miz/Orton match, Miz can use that to his advantage. He probably will, but would it really hurt him if he doesnt?

 

[Oppurtunist]

I actually think that heel CHAMPIONS don't need clear wins. The only heels that need CLEAN wins are those that are getting a push, propably putting them into the championship picture later. They need those wins to prove themselfs worthy of challenging for the title, but after that they can DQ/count out themselfs as they like. However one clean win would be nice to solidify them as a champ.

 

[Calderownz]

On the way up, yes. While at the top in big feuds, no.

Of course, their are exceptions. Some heels get to the top by always cheating and making the fans hate them. Some heels are so dominant that it helps the feud to get a big clean win to start the feud off in the first place.

However, by definition, a good heel is supposed to cheat. It's about attitude, and character, but those guys can be easily liked if they just go out there, kick ass and win matches. Hence the rise of Steve Austin. Dirty in many ways, but the less and less that happened, the more the fans respected than loved him.

So, no they don't need them 9 out of 10 times.

 

[ZLT-truth316]

You are right besides the fact that one of the main characteristics of a heel is to get a win in any way possible that heels such as Sheamus, Khali when he was he was a heel those are the type of heels that should be getting clean wins sometimes.

 

[TimAH]

hell champions should get clean victories over lower level faces. A world champion shouldnt have to cheat to beat kofi kingston for example.
Look at jerichos run as unified champion. It came off as a total failure to me because he had to cheat to beat even the weakest of opponents. Theres being a coward and then theres simply not being very good, and a champion should never seem like hes not very good.

 

[kidmetal24]

Heels need clean defense wins for sure. It helps their credibility and is more believable that the champion can compete at a main even level titke or not.