Diva's division. Is it really a division?

[Messiah]

I agree, AJ Lee was in no way a top diva that changed the divas division or anything.
AJ Lee's come and go, and there'll be plenty more of her that will come and go in the next few years, it's the divas that can cement a place there like Trish and Lita that go on to be greats.

Finally someone who get's it... People claim AJ changed the divas division because she was the only diva that got any attention at all.. That's not helping the divas division, that's only helping AJ.. She was a mediocre diva that was overpushed and WWE seemed to forget about everyone else on the roster.. I don't blame AJ personally for hurting the divas division, but think about it. When AJ was on top that was perhaps the worst the divas division has ever been... There was AJ, and everybody else.

 

[MartialHorror]

I'm not buying into Naomi as a heel at all. They would need to totally redo her character, have her drop the comedic moveset, give her a different personality and use an angle to build her up. I actually thought they did this well with Nikki. While she is regarded as more talented than Brie, I just thought of her as "Brie's sister" because Brie was getting more of a spotlight thanks to her role in Bryan's storyline. However, they tore down that foundation, gave her a personality that wasn't like anyone else's at that time and gave her a more devastating moveset.

Personally, I think it's time to bring in someone from NXT to play the next major heel. Hell, I'd rather Tamina fill that role right now.,

 

[TJ Matics]

People hate to give credit where credit is due, I'm not one of those people. Now Dagr on the other hand:

We are still suck with a Divas Champion who is not championship material. As much as Nikki has improved, I will never cheer for her.

You see that there? No matter what Nikki does or how hard she tries to improve herself, in a position where it's not necessarily necessary mind you, the Dagrs of the world will never cheer for her because..."she's a friggin' BELLA!". She can try and cut a good promo and work a good match all she wants, she can even succeed in doing so! It won't matter because there are more deserving female WRESTLERS who were putting their little brothers in headlocks long before The Bellas decided they wanted to be "Divas". Lets not even mention the fact that she was pushed because of her looks and relationship with Cena and made something out of it. Th-that that would make Vince right, right? Push models and eventually they'll come to?? Oh no no no no no, lets refuse to cheer for her because that will let Vince know that we won't stand for this status quo any longer! #CharlotteForPresident!

Now is this a 100% unreasonable way of thinking? No. Is there some truth to it? Absolutely. But, where is the fix? Let's say the Bellas both get pregnant, Cameron starts dating Justin Bieber, they're all gone. The best NXT has to offer is now on the main roster, does that mean no more 3 and a half minute matches? No more random character changes? No more half developed characters and dropped angles? No. The problem of lazy, inconsistent, and at times non sensical writing is still going to be there. So I'm not going to boo anyone who's trying, and succeeding, to improve herself, to send some half assed message above her pay grade. So to answer the OP's question, yes, it's a division. A badly booked one with or without Nikki Bella, but still a division.

I use to say that all the divas needed was time, and I'm glad that's all I said, because I quickly had to choke it back down. Has time helped Nikki Bella? Yes, but lack of direction is what's hurting her, and anyone else who would be in her position. So bring Charlotte to the main roster, and then what? She beats Nikki for the title. And then what?

The Divas Division needs long term solutions, not temporary temper tantrums.

NAOMI is getting title shots over girls like Natalya or Summer Rae who are better in the ring, infinitely better on the mic, and don't have stupid finishers.

Naomi was almost too athletic and her timing was off, causing awkward spots in her matches. But you'll still have to kindly show me where Summer Rae's better matches and where her and Natalya's "infinitely" better promos are, I must have missed all of them.

 

[FromGlasgow]

They were building Nikki Bella as the diva you love to hate, so it'll be even better when someone knocks her off her perch for the Divas title. Now Nikki is supposed to be a face I don't know.

I think theres a difference though of being someone you love to hate getting heel heat and someone you just don't really want to watch. For me personally anyway I feel theres better female heels right now.

 

[Dagger Dias]

People hate to give credit where credit is due, I'm not one of those people. Now Dagr on the other hand:

I did though. Look at the very same part of my post that you quoted. Yes it is true that I might never, and I mean NEVER, cheer for Nikki Bella. However in that very same post I admit that she has improved. Thus, credit is given where it is due as far as Nikki Bella is concerned. What I have an issue with is that when it all comes down to it, she is still not Divas Championship material. She has improved, but not to the point where she deserves that belt. When ranking the divas roster she is in the middle leaning toward the bottom half. The Divas Champion should be in the top tier, as she is (kayfabe) the best diva in the whole company. This is why Paige or Natalya need to end her reign immediately.

You see that there? No matter what Nikki does or how hard she tries to improve herself, in a position where it's not necessarily necessary mind you, the Dagrs of the world will never cheer for her because..."she's a friggin' BELLA!".

Not quite. I won't cheer for her because first of all, she sucks. Secondly, WWE randomly making her turn face while sitting at the announcer table for no reason whatsoever, is not going to make me like someone. I don't cheer for who they tell me to cheer for. When Carlito turned face I refused to cheer for him too. If someone sucks, I don't support them. I cheer for whoever I like more in the match.

She can try and cut a good promo and work a good match all she wants, she can even succeed in doing so! It won't matter because there are more deserving female WRESTLERS who were putting their little brothers in headlocks long before The Bellas decided they wanted to be "Divas". Lets not even mention the fact that she was pushed because of her looks and relationship with Cena and made something out of it.

Now you're getting it.

Now is this a 100% unreasonable way of thinking? No. Is there some truth to it? Absolutely. But, where is the fix? Let's say the Bellas both get pregnant, Cameron starts dating Justin Bieber, they're all gone. The best NXT has to offer is now on the main roster, does that mean no more 3 and a half minute matches? No more random character changes? No more half developed characters and dropped angles? No. The problem of lazy, inconsistent, and at times non sensical writing is still going to be there.

The terrible booking is indeed a massive problem. If Charlotte, Becky Lynch, and Bayley were to replace The Bellas and Naomi it would not be the final solution to the division's problem. That's not the point. The point is that while the bad booking might not be going anywhere anytime soon at least push girls who can WRESTLE, are good on the mic, and don't have stupid finishers. Promoting Charlotte and pushing Paige/Natalya/etc who can actually work a match, are huge steps in the right direction.

I use to say that all the divas needed was time, and I'm glad that's all I said, because I quickly had to choke it back down. Has time helped Nikki Bella? Yes, but lack of direction is what's hurting her, and anyone else who would be in her position. So bring Charlotte to the main roster, and then what? She beats Nikki for the title. And then what?

Easy. After her inevitable promotion Charlotte wins the Divas Championship then enters feuds with each of the girls who can work a match. Paige, Natalya, Emma, and Summer Rae all get a shot one after another. Let these feuds last 2 PPV's each or so. That's long enough for Becky Lynch and/or Bayley to get called up. Charlotte could enter feuds with them too. She eventually has to lose the belt so once a new Divas Champion gets crowned then the cycle starts over. Sasha and Alexa Bliss may have joined the mix by this point. Now you have 9 divas who ALL can wrestle. The Bellas, Naomi, and all the other divas who suck can be jobbers on Raw while still doing Total Divas.

This results in the best divas roster since Trish's departure in late 2006 nearly a decade ago. Or would you rather see a terrible division centered around Total Divas and The Bellas? I sure don't. I'd rather see a division centered around the female WRESTLERS.

 

[TJ Matics]

I did though. Look at the very same part of my post that you quoted. Yes it is true that I might never, and I mean NEVER, cheer for Nikki Bella. However in that very same post I admit that she has improved. Thus, credit is given where it is due as far as Nikki Bella is concerned. What I have an issue with is that when it all comes down to it, she is still not Divas Championship material. She has improved, but not to the point where she deserves that belt.

Giving a backhanded compliment is not giving credit where it's due. "She's improved but I'll never cheer for her because she sucks...", is just another thinly veiled insult. She has improved to the point where she's Divas Championship material. Your issue is that you feel that their are more deserving champions...but saying Nikki sucks when it's not true doesn't make that point any more valid. So it just comes off as petty reasoning.

When ranking the divas roster she is in the middle leaning toward the bottom half. The Divas Champion should be in the top tier, as she is (kayfabe) the best diva in the whole company. This is why Paige or Natalya need to end her reign immediately.

There's a reason we have a word for how things should be, ideally the Divas Champion should be the best diva in the whole company. And yet, there's been both male and female undeserving champions on all levels because this is not an ideal world, let alone an ideal company with an ideal writing staff.

Not quite. I won't cheer for her because first of all, she sucks.

So which is it Dagr, she's improved or she sucks? Or has she improved and still sucks because you've already stated that you'll never cheer for her? When you broadcast a closed mind you just have to know that your judgement is clouded.

Secondly, WWE randomly making her turn face while sitting at the announcer table for no reason whatsoever, is not going to make me like someone.

I completely agree.

I don't cheer for who they tell me to cheer for. If someone sucks, I don't support them. I cheer for whoever I like more in the match.

Especially if you decided before the match that nothing that person can do can make you cheer for them.

Now you're getting it.

Oh I "got it" long ago, I just allowed myself to see through such shallow thinking.

The point is that while the bad booking might not be going anywhere anytime soon at least push girls who can WRESTLE, are good on the mic, and don't have stupid finishers.

I agree, I'm just not going to refuse to cheer for someone who's trying, and succeeding, on improving themselves because I don't like how things have been ran for years above her pay grade.

Easy. After her inevitable promotion Charlotte wins the Divas Championship then enters feuds with each of the girls who can work a match. Paige, Natalya, Emma, and Summer Rae all get a shot one after another. Let these feuds last 2 PPV's each or so. That's long enough for Becky Lynch and/or Bayley to get called up. Charlotte could enter feuds with them too. She eventually has to lose the belt so once a new Divas Champion gets crowned then the cycle starts over. Sasha and Alexa Bliss may have joined the mix by this point. Now you have 9 divas who ALL can wrestle. The Bellas, Naomi, and all the other divas who suck can be jobbers on Raw while still doing Total Divas.

You failed to answer the question. I didn't ask for fantasy booking, I said the division needs long term solutions. Having good WRESTLERS having 2 PPV long feuds and politely passing around the title is going to get transparent quick and then you have the Big E (pre-New Day problem). The crowd will respond during the match, but afterwards they just won't care because that's all it was: a good match between Diva A and Diva B. Creative has had and does have plenty of good female WRESTLERS, and they keep managing to screw it up because it's just not as simple as "put the two good ones out there and let the twins play on E." nor is "let the models figure it out" always going to work.

This results in the best divas roster since Trish's departure in late 2006 nearly a decade ago. Or would you rather see a terrible division centered around Total Divas and The Bellas? I sure don't. I'd rather see a division centered around the female WRESTLERS.

The diva's roster has had it's highs since Trish departed, because it's had good and great female WRESTLERS. If only CREATIVE could come along for the ride and stay.

 

[Navi]

Giving a backhanded compliment is not giving credit where it's due. "She's improved but I'll never cheer for her because she sucks...", is just another thinly veiled insult. She has improved to the point where she's Divas Championship material. Your issue is that you feel that their are more deserving champions...but saying Nikki sucks when it's not true doesn't make that point any more valid. So it just comes off as petty reasoning.

Well actually it is sort of a compliment. I don't like the Bella's either, always thought they were crap, and make no secret about it. Yes Nikki has improved, but considering how bad she was, anything was an improvement. If she hadn't improved somewhat she shouldn't be on the roster.

Of course we always think there are more deserving champions, it's human nature. Doesn't mean she can't be champion, just means some of us don't think she should be. You know what that's okay too. Different strokes for different folks. If we all thought the same way this would be a very boring forum.

 

[TJ Matics]

Well actually it is sort of a compliment.

I know, a backhanded compliment.

I don't like the Bella's either, always thought they were crap, and make no secret about it.

I think one of the main problems is that people still consider them to be just the Bellas. Nikki's improvement is overshadowed by bad booking and Brie's lack of improvement.

Yes Nikki has improved, but considering how bad she was, anything was an improvement. If she hadn't improved somewhat she shouldn't be on the roster.

Here's another thing that picked up, how bad was Nikki? The Bellas popped up every now and then did their twin magic and then left. She was never as bad as say Cameron or Eva. Some of their matches I caught on Superstars were actually decent, the only difference now is that they were given time and a half empty glass of creative to improve.

If we all thought the same way this would be a very boring forum.

If we all thought differently and never spoke on it it'd be just as boring if not more.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Giving a backhanded compliment is not giving credit where it's due. "She's improved but I'll never cheer for her because she sucks...", is just another thinly veiled insult.

Giving credit where it is due means acknowledging an accomplishment. I have done this. The fact of the matter remains that she does, in fact, still suck. I don't cheer for wrestlers who suck. Plain and simple. "Nikki Bella has improved but she still sucks" is not a "thinly veiled insult", it is my opinion on Nikki Bella.

She has improved to the point where she's Divas Championship material.

No, she hasn't. When there are 13 divas on the roster and you are only better than 4 of them, you shouldn't be the champion.

And yet, there's been both male and female undeserving champions on all levels because this is not an ideal world, let alone an ideal company with an ideal writing staff.

Yes, there have been undeserving male champions and even many undeserving female champions too.... but Nikki for Divas Champion was one of the worst decisions in recent years. The division was finally turning around and was the strongest it had been since Trish's departure. How do you go from Kaitlyn, to AJ, to Paige, to AJ again, then to NIKKI BELLA!? That was a MASSIVE step backward. This was as bad as when The Miz became WWE Champion. Nikki is one of the most undeserving Divas Champions ever, and the division will only continue to spiral downward as long as she holds that belt. They might not have an ideal writing staff but for a couple years they got it right with Kaitlyn, AJ, and Paige.

So which is it Dagr, she's improved or she sucks? Or has she improved and still sucks because you've already stated that you'll never cheer for her?

You can improve without magically reaching perfection. She has improved, I have acknowledged that, or perhaps you somehow missed that part of my posts. She still sucks. She's still not Divas Championship material. I'll cheer for her if she earns it. Before you even try to say "oh but you will never give her a chance because she is a Bella!", not true. Don't put words in my mouth. I give every wrestler a chance. There are VERY few who I have 100% given up on and want nothing to do with, both male and female. While Nikki ranks low for me, she's not down at that level of awful. At the end of the day though, she has improved to the point where I'd support her. When she improves to the point where she's believable as a championship tier wrestler, and not being "awarded" a title for being the star of a stupid reality show that's absolute torture to watch, then we'll talk.

Especially if you decided before the match that nothing that person can do can make you cheer for them.

See, now you're just assuming. How about actually reading my posts before jumping to conclusions?

I agree, I'm just not going to refuse to cheer for someone who's trying, and succeeding, on improving themselves because I don't like how things have been ran for years above her pay grade.

That's fair enough, I'm not telling you who to support or not. If you want to support someone who only got their push due to being a twin and starring on an abysmal reality show, then by all means go for it. I'll support the divas who can actually work a match.

You failed to answer the question. I didn't ask for fantasy booking, I said the division needs long term solutions. Having good WRESTLERS having 2 PPV long feuds and politely passing around the title is going to get transparent

Yes I did. You asked for a long-term solution. I provided that. Promoting Charlotte then pushing her as well as the divas who can work good matches will improve the division in the long run. If you'd rather see The Bellas VS The Total Divas, then we can agree to disagree there.

The diva's roster has had it's highs since Trish departed, because it's had good and great female WRESTLERS. If only CREATIVE could come along for the ride and stay.

Indeed it has. The most recent high was ended by Nikki Bella becoming Divas Champion. The division will not recover until they push those who deserve it.

 

[TJ Matics]

Giving credit where it is due means acknowledging an accomplishment. I have done this.

Acknowledging something doesn't mean much if you backtrack it with an insult in the same breath.

The fact of the matter remains that she does, in fact, still suck. I don't cheer for wrestlers who suck. Plain and simple. "Nikki Bella has improved but she still sucks" is not a "thinly veiled insult", it is my opinion on Nikki Bella.

You end this with "it's my opinion" after calling it a fact twice beforehand. You seem to be confusing the two.

When there are 13 divas on the roster and you are only better than 4 of them, you shouldn't be the champion.

If that were the case, I'd agree with you, but it's not. She's better than 6 and on par with 3. Leaving 3 divas ahead of her: one's filming a movie, another is another victim of creative, and the last hasn't been interesting since the Divas of Doom.

but Nikki for Divas Champion was one of the worst decisions in recent years.

It would have been one of the worst decisions had she not improved herself, but she did and is continuing to do so.

How do you go from Kaitlyn, to AJ, to Paige, to AJ again, then to NIKKI BELLA!?

Simple. Kaitlyn decided to leave the company, and AJ and Paige were entering into a tepid game of hot potato with the belt.

That was a MASSIVE step backward. This was as bad as when The Miz became WWE Champion.

I'll cheer for her if she earns it.

Yes it is true that I might never, and I mean NEVER, cheer for Nikki Bella.

Yeah, your mind is so open I'm surprised nothing's falling out.

While Nikki ranks low for me, she's not down at that level of awful.

So she sucks, but she's not awful. Got it. Here I was thinking that meant the same thing.

When she improves to the point where she's believable as a championship tier wrestler, and not being "awarded" a title for being the star of a stupid reality show that's absolute torture to watch, then we'll talk.

We're talking now. All of her problems as of now are due to lazy and non sensical writing. If you keep holding on to TD , a show you call torture but are apparently keeping up with, as a reason to dislike her then no, she'll never meet your precious standards.

How about actually reading my posts before jumping to conclusions?

Your posts are a very simple read, there's no need to jump anywhere.

If you want to support someone who only got their push due to being a twin and starring on an abysmal reality show, then by all means go for it. I'll support the divas who can actually work a match.

I'll do both.

Promoting Charlotte then pushing her as well as the divas who can work good matches will improve the division in the long run.

The terrible booking is indeed a massive problem. If Charlotte, Becky Lynch, and Bayley were to replace The Bellas and Naomi it would not be the final solution to the division's problem.

As we had previously agreed on, a boatload a good wrestlers won't magically improve the division in the long run. It's been had before, and it's been lost because of creative, or lack their of.

If you'd rather see The Bellas VS The Total Divas, then we can agree to disagree there.

What's that you said earlier about assuming?

The most recent high was ended by Nikki Bella becoming Divas Champion. The division will not recover until they push those who deserve it.

It's well on the road to recovery, with it's fair share of potholes mind you; Nikki Bella's not one of them.

 

[The Kiz]

Did you all see RAW? Nikki Bella V Naomi for the Divas title, and when Nikki Bella came out the fans didn't know what to do, THAT is the result of assuming people will cheer her against Naomi simply because Naomi is a heel now.

I would probably cheer anyone over Nikki Bella, as she's still the bitch character she's been for the past year, and she's very unlikeable. They need to actually WORK to make her a face now with something significant. Maybe have her save Paige against Naomi/Tamina.

 

[TJ Matics]

Did you all see RAW? Nikki Bella V Naomi for the Divas title, and when Nikki Bella came out the fans didn't know what to do, THAT is the result of assuming people will cheer her against Naomi simply because Naomi is a heel now.

I didn't watch RAW, but I did watch Payback. When the Bellas came out grinning from ear to ear slapping high 5's I was just thinking, "Yeah, those cheesy smiles are going to make people forget that Brie kicked Naomi behind the refs back so her sister could retain the title." Having the Bellas do heel-ish things and then acting like it never happened doesn't make them more likable, it actually does the opposite. Tamina interfered last night but hell that can be considered payback (ha) for Brie interfering in their first match. Then you have the problem of a heel that maybe makes too much sense, especially against faces that aren't making any.

I would probably cheer anyone over Nikki Bella, as she's still the bitch character she's been for the past year, and she's very unlikeable. They need to actually WORK to make her a face now with something significant. Maybe have her save Paige against Naomi/Tamina.

Nikki is a natural heel. A face run isn't impossible but a forced, yet somehow still lazy one is close to it. She did get a little pop from the crowd when Brie finally tagged her in at Payback, but the fan's hands were being held at that point. Now that Paige is back, who from what I read saved and then layed out Nikki herself, the big face save has to be scrapped too.

Point being I do feel like Nikki is DC material, she shouldn't drop the belt because "she sucks", because she doesn't. However, the back and forth with her character needs to stop and be figured out, and not while she's carrying the championship. There are too many better options than to wait.

With that being said, I sense a triple threat coming. With Brie and Tamina's shenanigans costing Nikki and Naomi leaving Paige as champion. Maybe they can enter into a separate feud, actually pushing the Bellas as faces if that's what they want. Meanwhile Paige can feud against Charlotte, which I guess means she'd have to be called up as a heel, which could work fine. They've already had their issues on Twitter so it won't be a hard sell.

I'd love to see Charlotte pushing the Women's Championship to be reinstated, reasoning the Divas belt is below her and her father always saw her being a Woman's champion or something like that. Both belts could be put on the line giving us an undisputed champion.

I do want both belts to be kept. Though characters and angles are dropped like bad habits, especially in the divas division, I feel the belt has been taken and treated like a real prize. It'd be easier if there was an actual brand split, but with 5+ hours a week programming it shouldn't be impossible. *sigh*