Did the Hart Foundation have a place in WCW?

[Vader]

Neidhart, and Bulldog both left with Bret and came over to the WCW. As we all know, WCW did very little with Bret to get a return on their investment. While I think Bret was a huge star, I think WCW half wanted Bret, and half wanted the WWF to be without Bret.

The Hart Foundation were anti-American heels and faces in Canada and England. They were the lead heel group until the month prior to Survivor Series where Michaels had began to make his heel turn and there were no clear cut face group between DX and Hart Foundation.

Oddly, Neidhart and Bulldog had very little involvement with Bret in WCW. While I don't think the Anti-American vitriol would have flown in WCW as well, I think WCW could have formed some kind of Hart Family stable.

With the Horsemen disbanded a few months earlier, you had the potential for them to step in and feel that void. While I don't think Bulldog is a face of the company kind of guy, he was a good wrestler he was extremely strong and had a good look. Using that same formula, you can book Neidhart as their enforcer type.

Hart as a heel was very entertaining. He cut great promos throughout 97 and definitely did better work in the WWF than WCW, even after he became affiliated with the NWO.

I would also have thrown Benoit in this mix. After the demise of the Horsemen at Fall Brawl he was in limbo story line wise until the Booker T series. Benoit and Bulldog could have easily made a tag team run and having Benoit involved with Bret ups his clout since he hadn't worked with Flair much as a Horseman.

In terms of booking, I'm not sure how I would have them entering the fray. Their heel factoring in the WWF wouldn't have the same heat in the WCW and as heels they would have been second tier to the NWO and a waste of everyone's time (like the Flock). Most likely I would put them as a tweener group or dirty faces in the same light as the Horsemen were and have them bout against the NWO. A Hogan vs. Hart match, and Hogan vs. Sting match should have occurred much earlier in 98. Hart Family vs. NWO Hollywood vs. Wolfpack would have been a great War Games match and feud as well.

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Nobody had a place in WCW. By the time Davey and Neidhart debuted in early 1998, the company was already dead... it merely ran on nerve endings for another year. Looking back at old footage, the lack of any brilliance or creative direction in post-1997 WCW is staggering. It was literally just Hogan, Nash, Hall and a few others doing their own thing, just showing off and being narcissistic. Awful.

 

[justtxyank]

Yawn to the poster above me.

First, Hart was involved with Davey Boy and Neidhart as first and the original plan was to feud with the nWo. Bulldog feuded with Hennig and that ultimately brought Hart into the feud to protect his family. WCW even teased it in the magazine with some pictures of Hart/Neidhart/Bulldog and Jimmy Hart together.

However, despite what every internet fan 20 years later wants to believe, the WCW audience did not take to the Hart Foundation. Davey Boy, who I personally am a big fan of and so was Bischoff (originally tried to snag him as the 4th nWo member in 96) didn't catch fire AT ALL and the WCW audiences did not galvanize behind a face Bret Hart. As a heel he was the second biggest heel in the company behind Hogan and carried main event feuds with Sting/DDP/Luger/Savage and Piper just in 1998. The idea that he wasn't used in a top spot is ridiculous. He was doing all the heavy lifting as the top heel behind Hogan in a year where basically he and Hogan were the only two real heel draws the company had. The rest of the main eventers were faces.

 

[Vader]

Bulldog was a sleeper but they never gave him much to work with. Despite what many believe, I never found Henning very entertaining. Bulldog was not main event status, but he had potential beyond what WCW tried to do with him. He sold his moves well and was very strong.

I definitely agree that the WCW had too many faces in 98. Once the Wolfpack split you had Macho, Sting, Luger, Nash, Goldberg, Flair, Piper, and the Warrior briefly as faces. On the heel camp you had Hogan, and Hart with an emerging Scott Steiner and The Giant on his way out.

The Wolfpack came off as a face stable. While popular, that story line would have been far more intriguing if the fans had to choose between the Wolfpack or Hollywood. I'm not sure if it's simple minded nature of wrestling fans or the bookers, but it didn't pan out that way.

 

[rmp0012002]

Top heel behind Hogan, that's funny. I seem to remember he was so juiced that he blew up five minutes into every match. By the time the WWE's Attitude Era came around WCW was definitely on the downside. The Hart Foundation could have had a place but the booking was so erratic. if you weren't NWO red or black or calling your own shots like Hogan you were kind of lost in the shuffle.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Yawn to the poster above me.

First, Hart was involved with Davey Boy and Neidhart as first and the original plan was to feud with the nWo. Bulldog feuded with Hennig and that ultimately brought Hart into the feud to protect his family. WCW even teased it in the magazine with some pictures of Hart/Neidhart/Bulldog and Jimmy Hart together.

However, despite what every internet fan 20 years later wants to believe, the WCW audience did not take to the Hart Foundation. Davey Boy, who I personally am a big fan of and so was Bischoff (originally tried to snag him as the 4th nWo member in 96) didn't catch fire AT ALL and the WCW audiences did not galvanize behind a face Bret Hart. As a heel he was the second biggest heel in the company behind Hogan and carried main event feuds with Sting/DDP/Luger/Savage and Piper just in 1998. The idea that he wasn't used in a top spot is ridiculous. He was doing all the heavy lifting as the top heel behind Hogan in a year where basically he and Hogan were the only two real heel draws the company had. The rest of the main eventers were faces.

LOL...they didn't catch on because WCW had no clue what to do with them. They didn't even know how to use Bret hart and you blame the fans for Bulldog and Neidhart not catching on? The HF would have been fine if Bischoff had any kind of clue how to use talent correctly.

WCW at that point was a place to collect a check and not do much else.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

I like the idea of uniting Chris Benoit (influenced heavily by Dynamite Kid) with Davey Boy Smith as a re-incarnation of The Bulldogs. It's a logical connection for two guys who they clearly didn't really know what to do with. Having them join up with Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart though is debatable. They could have re-created the new Hart Foundation with Benoit taking Owen's place, that is some obvious WCW booking. But it all depended on how they were going to use Bret. I think having the Anvil as Bret's own security/bodyguard also would have been logical rather than keeping them separate for the most part. Bret kind of being a heel, and kind of being in n.W.o. without every actually really looking like he was in the n.W.o. was such a confusing angle. But WCW didn't know of anything else - it was either be in the n.W.o. or not.

Bret vs Sting was a dream match from the early 90's - and it's a shame it was wasted at Halloween Havoc for the United States title and not for the World title.

 

[justtxyank]

Halloween havoc was the big show for wcw. Sting vs jake Roberts, hogan vs savage, hogan vs the giant, foley vs vader, sting vs Sid, hogan vs warrior, dip vs Goldberg, hogan vs sting rematch in 99, Nash vs hall, Goldberg vs Sid, sting vs Goldberg...

The match sucked and was rushed because sting was leaving to take time off.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Yawn to the poster above me.

First, Hart was involved with Davey Boy and Neidhart as first and the original plan was to feud with the nWo. Bulldog feuded with Hennig and that ultimately brought Hart into the feud to protect his family. WCW even teased it in the magazine with some pictures of Hart/Neidhart/Bulldog and Jimmy Hart together.

However, despite what every internet fan 20 years later wants to believe, the WCW audience did not take to the Hart Foundation. Davey Boy, who I personally am a big fan of and so was Bischoff (originally tried to snag him as the 4th nWo member in 96) didn't catch fire AT ALL and the WCW audiences did not galvanize behind a face Bret Hart. As a heel he was the second biggest heel in the company behind Hogan and carried main event feuds with Sting/DDP/Luger/Savage and Piper just in 1998. The idea that he wasn't used in a top spot is ridiculous. He was doing all the heavy lifting as the top heel behind Hogan in a year where basically he and Hogan were the only two real heel draws the company had. The rest of the main eventers were faces.

Probably because they didn't expand their audience. Nabbing Bret, Davey and Neidhart should have had them promoting shows in Canada (a country previously entirely left to Vince and aching for WCW after Montreal), but besides a couple of PPVs and television shows, I don't think they ever bothered to capitalize.

 

[rmp0012002]

Who's the top heel aside from Hogan then?

Actually no one if you look at how the booking was all over the place. Davey Boy was injured for most of his time in '98 after teaming with Neidhart then released.

 

[Judah's Lion]

While I don't think the Anti-American vitriol would have flown in WCW as well, I think WCW could have formed some kind of Hart Family stable.

With the Horsemen disbanded a few months earlier, you had the potential for them to step in and fill that void.

I would also have thrown Benoit in this mix. Benoit and Bulldog could have easily made a tag team run and having Benoit involved with Bret ups his clout since he hadn't worked with Flair much as a Horseman.

Hart Family vs. NWO Hollywood vs. Wolfpack would have been a great War Games match and feud as well.

wow! can't believe that I've never thought of this before. I actually forgot that almost all the members of the Hart Foundation were in WCW at all, let alone together at the same time! this would have made so much more sense than what we did get with Bret (and the others) in WCW.

the only positive I remember from Bret, really, is when Goldberg hit the spear on him and he was wearing that metal plate under his jersey. I remember nothing of Anvil and Bulldog just so happened to be on hand for the debut of Shockmaster. otherwise, all three of these guys were largely forgettable in my opinion and that's so unfortunate. what a missed opportunity!

Hart as the leader of a new faction, especially after the Horsemen broke up, is an easy solution to the possible faction void. outside of the NWO, you really have nobody else. and I like the idea of Hollywood vs. Wolfpac vs. Hart Foundation at War Games. Hogan/Hart and Sting/Hart are also good matches. for that matter, Nash/Hart was good in the WWF and would still be good in WCW. plus the feuds that he did get with Piper -- again, another old WWF feud that still worked in WCW -- DDP and others would still work and make sense. just a shame they didn't use the stable idea also.

Bulldog/Benoit forming a pseudo new-Bulldogs tag team is freaking genius. it's no secret that Benoit modeled his style and move set, even his body, to mirror Dynamite Kid. plus he trained in the Hart Dungeon, so there's already that history. this would have been a great tag team option for the stable or just the company as a general whole.

and Anvil as the Enforcer makes perfect sense given his size and lengthy history with Bret. dear God, what a waste of talent and history!

also, to your point that an anti-American stable wouldn't work in WCW, I'm not so sure that's true. I really enjoyed Lance Storm and the Team Canada deal he had going on. everything but Hacksaw Jim Duggan made sense and flowed really naturally. in fact, adding Lance Storm and some of his Team Canada crew to the Hart Foundation could have given the NWO some serious competition.

really great idea and really enjoyable thread. thanks.

 

[Goldie]

Bret, Bulldog, Anvil & Benoit all had that Stampede connection.... so it could have been a good idea to group them together- with Bret as leader.... but would they have been pushed as a strong faction with all the NWO ego's? Afterall the Horsemen were marginalised as the NWO push was in motion.

WCW still did great business in 1998, contrary to what I've read in earlier posts.... so there was an opportunity for a reformed Hart Foundation (though they'd need a new name) to make an impact. It was maybe spring 1999 when things began to plummet...
I agree with the statement that WCW poached Bret more to damage the WWF than push him themselves.... and Bulldog/Anvil simply got lost in the shuffle with all the marquee names WCW had on its roster.

Bulldog was falling apart by this point, it was unfortunate that he got injured on the ring trapdoor (used for the Warriors surprise entrances) but he wasn't the same wrestler that he was from 1985-1997...his drug problems sadly completely overwhelmed it.

Anvil was signed more or less to appease Bret.... from what I recall Bret saying in his book, Anvil was signed to $150000 per year.... that's a basement salary for what WCW were paying at the time... given that status he was never going to be pushed.. (Bulldog was signed to $400,000... and Bret of course to a whopping $2.7 million p/a).

Its baffling as to why WCW paid Bret so highly yet they pushed him as a secondary wrestler- his contract was the 2nd highest in the company behind Hogans!

In hindsight grouping them together may have worked out better for them than their individual runs (or Bulldog/Anvil tagging).... had Bret maintained the same momentum he had with his '97 WWE run... and captained a team, putting him in a leadership role.... both Bulldog and Anvils profiles would have risen due to their association with Bret.

 

[rge2010]

A VERY successful and wise man once said 'WCW won't know what to do with a Bret Hart' and boy was he right.

Bret Hart was white hot at the time he left WWF and WCW didn't capitalise on it. The Hart Foundation was a great faction, one of the all time greats and they had 3 members and didn't capitalise on it. They also had Chris Benoit who was a PERFECT fit for the Hart Foundation and they didn't capitalise on it. Bischoff, Hogan and the other big hitters were just too wrapped up in the NWO and firing shots at the WWF.

Bret should have entered WCW and shot down WWF in flames when he joined - fans love a good shoot. Armed with his buddies Bulldog and Neidhart they should have then started to feud with the NWO - ultimately ending with Bret vs Hogan at a PPV in the pay off.

Having said all that, I don't think Bret's run was 'too bad'. He did some good stuff with Goldberg, and he had some great matches against Sting and of course Chris Benoit.

 

[Vader]

Quick Bullet points to the earlier posts.

I don't believe Bret's run in WCW was bad either. I even think the NWO 2000 had some potential (under different circumstances with a different name). Bret, Steiner, and Jarrett all make great heels. It was a shame that Bret was used more or less as everything began to crumble in WCW. It's a shame for WCW for not getting a return on their investment, and a shame for Bret that he didn't get to live up to his potential. Again, I think one of the motivations for the fat contract Bret got was not just to bring Bret to the WCW, but also to keep Bret out of the WWF.

I don't know what the other guy was talking about, but Bret was clearly the number 2 heel in WCW after the Wolfpack split. If not Bret, then it would have to be Raven or some other second tier guy.

Piggybacking on that earlier argument, Bret's star appeal was uniquely large internationally. Given that the WCW already had strong relations with New Japan and the Luchadore promotions in Mexico, WCW could have easily captured most of the international wrestling market (from an American based promotion standpoint), by Bret performing in Canada and the UK.

I actually watched the Halloween Havoc match last night between Bret and Sting and it turned in to a lame duck very quickly despite two exciting performers. That match could have easily headlined a PPV with proper build up and assuming Hogan was kept far from having anything to do with it. Two of the biggest faces of the 90s, with the same finisher, were many fans' dream match. If the match was thrown together because Sting was taking time off than they never should have put the match on the card. Not only did it look lame to most, but it ruined your chances at a big money match down the road when everything came together.

Of course if the stars had aligned we could have seen Benoit, Bulldog, Hart, and Lance Storm in the same stable.

 

[Goldie]

Lance is another with the Stampede connection, though he would have been needed to be recruited earlier.... I think it was early 2000 when he joined from ECW... at a time where Bret had already wrestled his last WCW match.

On paper, Bret, Bulldog, Anvil, Benoit, Strom sounds an impressive stable... though I still think that the WCW bookers would have booked them to look inferior to the (then) watered down version of the NWO

 

[Just Do It]

The money was with Bret as a solo star post screwjob, not with Davey and Jim. That being said, WCW obviously cocked up massively by not using Bret properly which is a crying shame. Hogan vs Bret should have been the first programme... but alas. #WCW

 

[Vader]

They could have easily done Hogan vs. Bret after Starrcade too. That may have been the only real redemption for WCW completely botching what could have been the biggest main event in wrestling history.

If there was anyone that could have benefitted from a roster split it was WCW. In terms of production values and emphasis, WCW intended for Thunder to be just as big as Nitro. That gave them 5 hours of top tier wrestling they were doing every week.

I think everyone agrees they wasted their money, and Bret's time. Bret eventually would become the second top heel in the company.

I can appreciate Bret looking out for his family. In the end, Bret cost them Bulldog, Neidhart, and Bret's salary. If part of the condition for Bret coming was job security for his family then the smart financial decision would be to make some kind of use with them. As it was, Bulldog and Neidhart did nothing for WCW.

 

[justtxyank]

WCW was beating the WWF in the ratings pretty handily with Bret on top of the WWF and Hogan as the main bad guy in WCW.

Yet most people's idea of what WCW should have done is put Bret over Hogan and make Bret the face of WCW.

Every "Bret in WCW" rebooking fantasy has him beating Hogan, most have him beating Goldberg, most have him running over the entire nWo...

I just can't get behind that. There may have been some stuff left on the table with Bret, but I think the bigger issue is that Bret wasn't the draw for WCW people think he should have been.