Did Joey Styles deserve to be fired?

[klunderbunker]

My mistake, I only read reports off of other sites. After reading the open letter from Joey Styles on the main page, it seems like Joey went out of his way to get Gabe to publicly "fire" him to further emphasize that EVOLVE wouldn't tolerate that kind of talk.

Apparently Joey thinks that he deserved to be fired.

Yeah Joey seems to have handled this well. He realized he had screwed up, apologized, didn't accept his pay and left before the show ended.

The other thing to remember about this is the size of the promotion he's working for. This isn't WWE where they can absorb almost anything. 300 people is a big crowd for a Chikara show and they can't afford to alienate anyone over a stupid joke.

 

[FromGlasgow]

All that crap you are complaining about happened over a decade ago (plus wrestling was viewed as dirty at the time because of crap like this).

I don't agree, Wrestling was maybe a little edgy during that period but it was also viewed as cool during that period, Having grown up through that time people in my school then later work I felt a lot were all talking about wrestling everywhere you went you seen at least one person wearing the Austin 3:16 or NWO tops, It seemed cool, Now I hear nobody talking about wrestling and other than at wrestling events I see nobody wearing any wrestling merchandise and when they pull crap like this it comes across as lame.
I still enjoy todays wrestling I just don't agree wrestling over a decade ago was as bad as you assume it to be as the popularity of that era speaks for itself.

 

[Papa Pillman]

This entire situation is laughable and seriously damages my respect for Gabe Sapolsky, and completely eliminates any small amount of respect I may still have possessed for Mike Quackenbush.

Quackenbush's statement was a ridiculous farce, and an assault against pro wrestling and it's fans. His approach to pro wrestling has steadily turned his product into more and more of an unwatchable, neutered joke. Chikara has become wrestling's equivalent of "Barney on Ice". Joey Styles should have had more respect for himself than to get involved with that product in the first place.

As for Gabe, I get that he was upset, and it was justified given that he warned talent to not make jokes on the side of political commentary, but he shouldn't have been such a reactionary and he should've waited for Styles's explanation and apology, which were far more classy than anything said by any of the companies that cut ties with him in the wake of this faux-controversy. Joey's apology should have been more than enough to make it clear to people what occurred and to save his place with the promotion. Sapolsky is becoming a lap dog.


Also this statement from a new promoter to the business, Richard O'Sullivan, succintly addresses the problem with this issue and a lot of problems hounding the business in general right now:

"As President and co-owner of ChuteVerks, LLC (which held its first Lucha Ilimitado show on October 12), I’d just like to say thank you to Joey Styles.

Not for making an arguably questionable joke on a wrestling broadcast, but for reminding a lot of people of what made them fall in love with this business in the first place.

Wrestling has been missing its “testicular fortitude” for some time now (having the boss of the biggest company in the industry send his daughter on TV week after week to publicly neuter the hired help will do that) and to see even a semblance of an actual “outlaw spirit” return is a breath of fresh air."

...
"I love a lot of the in-ring product I see from groups like Evolve, Beyond, and CHIKARA. And I respect their desire to create a Lena Dunham-like “safe zone” for fans who enjoy robotically chanting “This. Is. Awe-some” (clap clap clap-clap-clap). But at the end of the day, it’s hard for me (as a fan) to viscerally connect to “a brand” that is that “whipped.”

I didn’t dip my toe into the wrestling game so that I could forge a working relationship with WWE or get my orders from some upstart distribution company.

I jumped in because I friggin’ love wrestling.

I’m a writer and a filmmaker. My job is to sell emotion. Wrestling used to do that better than almost any other genre of show biz. But somewhere along the way? I think it kinda lost that ability. Coincidentally, right around the time it lost its sac.

See, I like my wrestling with a little outlaw spirit. And I’m not necessarily talking about a show filled with a bunch of nudity and four-letter words. Or people going off balconies and through tables. That’s kinda been done to death to the point that it doesn’t really have the same impact anymore.

But I do prefer wrestlers (and announcers) who look like they aren’t scared to death that some “higher power” is gonna swoop in and spank them like a child for daring to be ballsy or for having an opinion. For daring to be creative and free. For daring to “go off script.”

I just like my wrestling to feel organic and dangerous. Like anything could happen at any given moment.

So, with that in mind, as we prepare for the release of “Lucha Ilimitado vs The State of Washington” (and our upcoming real-life battle with an actual overreaching state government body that will be attempting to pickpocket us after the fact), I’d just like to state publicly for the record, that I would be honored (should the opportunity present itself in the near future) to work with a man like Joey Styles.

He’s one of the few people still brave enough to make me chant, “This. Is. Awesome” (clap clap clap-clap-clap)…and actually mean it.

Thank you, Joey.

Richard O’Sullivan
Writer/Director
“Lucha Ilimitado vs The State of Washington”

It's sad that a guy brand new to the business can manage to understand the reality of the business in a more clear and level-headed non-reactionary way than men who have been involved with it for a combined number of years which spans multiple decades.

Perhaps the savior for the business will be fans with dedication and resources who actually have a clue, using those resources to jump in from the outside and make waves, while failures like Quackenbush continue to drop the ball. No wonder Chikara can't draw a decent house and has lost the vast majority of its former fanbase.

Good on Joey Styles for handling this with the utmost class, while the dreck chose a pathetic hill to die on.

 

[ABMorales787]

Its kind of funny, all these opinions and how Habe is being sensitive, etc. Know how Joey would've avoided all this? If he followed orders. It does not matter if Gabe or Quackenbush are being overly sensitive. Jeoy styles was given a direct mandate which proceeded to make note of before blatantly violating it on live television. That's something that doesn't fly on live TV and that kind of stuff has always caused a domino effect.

 

[FromGlasgow]

This entire situation is laughable and seriously damages my respect for Gabe Sapolsky, and completely eliminates any small amount of respect I may still have possessed for Mike Quackenbush.

Quackenbush's statement was a ridiculous farce, and an assault against pro wrestling and it's fans. His approach to pro wrestling has steadily turned his product into more and more of an unwatchable, neutered joke. Chikara has become wrestling's equivalent of "Barney on Ice". Joey Styles should have had more respect for himself than to get involved with that product in the first place.

As for Gabe, I get that he was upset, and it was justified given that he warned talent to not make jokes on the side of political commentary, but he shouldn't have been such a reactionary and he should've waited for Styles's explanation and apology, which were far more classy than anything said by any of the companies that cut ties with him in the wake of this faux-controversy. Joey's apology should have been more than enough to make it clear to people what occurred and to save his place with the promotion. Sapolsky is becoming a lap dog.


Also this statement from a new promoter to the business, Richard O'Sullivan, succintly addresses the problem with this issue and a lot of problems hounding the business in general right now:


It's sad that a guy brand new to the business can manage to understand the reality of the business in a more clear and level-headed non-reactionary way than men who have been involved with it for a combined number of years which spans multiple decades.

Perhaps the savior for the business will be fans with dedication and resources who actually have a clue, using those resources to jump in from the outside and make waves, while failures like Quackenbush continue to drop the ball. No wonder Chikara can't draw a decent house and has lost the vast majority of its former fanbase.

Good on Joey Styles for handling this with the utmost class, while the dreck chose a pathetic hill to die on.

I completely agree I feel this Sapolsky and Quackenbush is an embaressment to pro wrestling, Ive never heard of this Richard O'Sullivan but his statement you quoted pretty much sums up what I was thinking only better worded.

 

[klunderbunker]

For daring to be creative and free.

Creative as in copying one of the most repeated lines of the last six weeks?

Free as in being allowed to make a joke about sexual assault?

Here's the thing: there was a promotion that was all about pushing the envelope and being extreme. It was called ECW and it went out of business, partially because a lot of people wanted nothing to do with stuff that went that far.

You know what's been around longer than ECW? Chikara, that "unwatchable neutered joke". I watched a lot of ECW back in the day and after it went under. A lot of the stuff they aired was embarrassing because it was so ridiculous that it stopped being wrestling (which it often wasn't in the first place) and turned into a freak show.

Chikara has some of the most over the top storylines you'll ever find and is a lot of fun. Yeah it's for families and I missed the moment when that's a bad thing.

On the other hand, Evolve is a more technical style and several of its wrestlers are being signed up by WWE, who has some sort of an official working relationship with them.

Now of course fans are allowed to go off and be hardcore and have creative freedom or whatever their way of putting their anti-authority nature is this week. I'd rather be a wrestling promotion that can stay in business because people want to work with me.

 

[therockiswwf]

I don't agree, Wrestling was maybe a little edgy during that period but it was also viewed as cool during that period, Having grown up through that time people in my school then later work I felt a lot were all talking about wrestling everywhere you went you seen at least one person wearing the Austin 3:16 or NWO tops, It seemed cool, Now I hear nobody talking about wrestling and other than at wrestling events I see nobody wearing any wrestling merchandise and when they pull crap like this it comes across as lame.
I still enjoy todays wrestling I just don't agree wrestling over a decade ago was as bad as you assume it to be as the popularity of that era speaks for itself.

Advertisers stayed away from WWE during that time due to the product. That leads to lower TV contracts. Now they attract a lot of advertisers. Bigger TV contract.

WWE has posted record revenue for a few years in a row now (income is a different story).

Wrestling was in a bubble during the AE. That bubble was going to pop regardless of the product. 02-03 product didn't help but both WCW and WWE had a horrible product in 99 (98 was good for WWE, 00 was great, 01 was iffy but 99 was Russo running wild) so that probably was not a factor. The war ended, bubble popped.

Oh and I was saying it is not really fair to compare today to the product over a decade ago for the sake of a double standard. If WWE had continued to do that type of stuff into more recent times then it would be a double standard (ignoring that this isn't even about WWE).

 

[therockiswwf]

I think I can sum this up for anyone complaining that he was fired.

Lets say you see this sign.

Guess what you don't do.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Was it a sexual assault joke? I could see why someone would be fired over that. Especially in the entertainment industry.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

“Joanna you look great, if our next President were here he’d want to grab you by the p—y,” said Styles to ring announcer Joanna Rose during an in-ring segment on the show, which was streamed live via Flo Sports for the first time last night.

He was fired for that? No wonder Trump won election when people cant even do dumb jokes anymore because PC is coming for you.

On the other hand, if he was told not to and he did it anyway, yeah, that is just asking to be fired.

 

[FromGlasgow]

Advertisers stayed away from WWE during that time due to the product. That leads to lower TV contracts. Now they attract a lot of advertisers. Bigger TV contract.

WWE has posted record revenue for a few years in a row now (income is a different story).

Wrestling was in a bubble during the AE. That bubble was going to pop regardless of the product. 02-03 product didn't help but both WCW and WWE had a horrible product in 99 (98 was good for WWE, 00 was great, 01 was iffy but 99 was Russo running wild) so that probably was not a factor. The war ended, bubble popped.

Oh and I was saying it is not really fair to compare today to the product over a decade ago for the sake of a double standard. If WWE had continued to do that type of stuff into more recent times then it would be a double standard (ignoring that this isn't even about WWE).

I honestly have no idea about how much WWE makes in advertising then compared to now and wasn't even aware that information was public knowledge, All I know is WWE has like only quarter of the audience watching a show like RAW than it had back then and nobody outside of these forums even talks about it anymore, Ratings are decreasing year after year so clearly something is wrong will it get to that point where they will have a show that nobody watches just to please advertisers?

I'm not debating what the better era was as I'm sure we all have our own personal opinions, They have always had sponsors and advertising so I can't see how they will be making a lot more now as compared to then I would have thought taking into account inflation it would at most be on a similar level, So it just doesn't make sense to me that they would be making so much more now with less viewers but I'd be happy to be proved wrong though if you have any evidence in WWE's increased advertising revenue

 

[Shadowmancer]

I understand why Joey was fired from Evolve. Its The other promotions that seem a bit extreme, especially since he led it into an insult against who he was feuding with, he never completed the full phrase. I can understand CHIKARA, but at the same time you have to reconcile the fact that Eddie Kingston and Chuck Taylor have actually said far worse and are still associated with CHIKARA.

 

[klunderbunker]

I understand why Joey was fired from Evolve. Its The other promotions that seem a bit extreme, especially since he led it into an insult against who he was feuding with, he never completed the full phrase. I can understand CHIKARA, but at the same time you have to reconcile the fact that Eddie Kingston and Chuck Taylor have actually said far worse and are still associated with CHIKARA.

True but they weren't quoting the President of the United States in a very tense political atmosphere.

 

[therockiswwf]

I honestly have no idea about how much WWE makes in advertising then compared to now and wasn't even aware that information was public knowledge, All I know is WWE has like only quarter of the audience watching a show like RAW than it had back then and nobody outside of these forums even talks about it anymore, Ratings are decreasing year after year so clearly something is wrong will it get to that point where they will have a show that nobody watches just to please advertisers?

I'm not debating what the better era was as I'm sure we all have our own personal opinions, They have always had sponsors and advertising so I can't see how they will be making a lot more now as compared to then I would have thought taking into account inflation it would at most be on a similar level, So it just doesn't make sense to me that they would be making so much more now with less viewers but I'd be happy to be proved wrong though if you have any evidence in WWE's increased advertising revenue

I've gone through the numbers a bunch of times (business major, so I do this kind of stuff). For basics, NBC (and others) gives WWE $200 million per year for TV contract rights. NBC makes that back through advertising. WWE's revenue was $658 million last year. More than the best year in the AE when adjusted for inflation and (I think) this included the XFL revenue. I assume so because the XFL factored into the losses for that year. Revenue has been rising every year since 2009.

TV contracts now are basically ad revenue. Overall in 1999 they had a revenue of $77.8m (TV rights + ads) and now it is at $200m. To put this in perspective, if they had their 1999 TV/Ad deal, they would have lost $98m last year.

WWE attracts bigger advertisers now. Before they couldn't attract big companies (I'm sure there were some exceptions) due to the product. They wouldn't touch it. Viewed it as dirty and low brow. It didn't matter how many people they reached, they had a bad image. Companies do not like controversies so they stayed away from them. Now the biggest reason their TV contract isn't bigger is due WWE fans usually being less educated and having less money than comparable products like UFC/boxing. If that was not an issue, their TV contract probably would have been around or above $250m.

Ratings decline is due to a number of reasons (illegal streaming, DVR, 10 billion channels, etc). Now as to how those statistically contribute to ratings decline vs product, no idea. Dismissing external reasons as a contributor would not be wise but it is uncertain how much weight those external causes have.

 

[Shadowmancer]

True but they weren't quoting the President of the United States in a very tense political atmosphere.

Thats why I said I understand Evolve firing him, Gabe said no politics, Joey brought in Politics. The others just seem to be using it as an excuse to get rid of Joey for whatever reason they decided he was not worth the money for them to bring him in, It also allows them to break from Joey without the backlash that could have existed if they got rid of him without the hint of controversy around him at this point in time.

 

[klunderbunker]

Possible as well. It could also be them trying to stay on Gabe's good side as these organizations seem to share a good bit of talent.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I've gone through the numbers a bunch of times (business major, so I do this kind of stuff). For basics, NBC (and others) gives WWE $200 million per year for TV contract rights. NBC makes that back through advertising. WWE's revenue was $658 million last year. More than the best year in the AE when adjusted for inflation and (I think) this included the XFL revenue. I assume so because the XFL factored into the losses for that year. Revenue has been rising every year since 2009.

TV contracts now are basically ad revenue. Overall in 1999 they had a revenue of $77.8m (TV rights + ads) and now it is at $200m. To put this in perspective, if they had their 1999 TV/Ad deal, they would have lost $98m last year.

WWE attracts bigger advertisers now. Before they couldn't attract big companies (I'm sure there were some exceptions) due to the product. They wouldn't touch it. Viewed it as dirty and low brow. It didn't matter how many people they reached, they had a bad image. Companies do not like controversies so they stayed away from them. Now the biggest reason their TV contract isn't bigger is due WWE fans usually being less educated and having less money than comparable products like UFC/boxing. If that was not an issue, their TV contract probably would have been around or above $250m.

Ratings decline is due to a number of reasons (illegal streaming, DVR, 10 billion channels, etc). Now as to how those statistically contribute to ratings decline vs product, no idea. Dismissing external reasons as a contributor would not be wise but it is uncertain how much weight those external causes have.

To be fair if the XFL factored into the losses during that period then its difficult to have a true revenue estimation, Also initially the Network upon its release I remember hearing was quite a loss for them which may be a reason it has continued to grow financially every year since then.
I would have assumed the revenue for live touring, merchandising and PPV/network buys would have covered the majority of WWE's earnings as their shows like Raw and Smackdown are in themselves basically in a way a longer advert for their network or their latest PPV.
I can't see how wrestling fans as a whole are more intelligent or any less intelligent today than they were 10 or 20 years ago for appealing more to advertisers but again advertising protocol isn't someting I'm very familiar with.

 

[Navi]

I didn't watch the program he was fired from, but did read the story. To tell you the truth it was kind of lame, and nothing I've not heard pretty much everywhere else. Since the Access Hollywood tape came out it was all over the place.

But if his boss told him to stay away from comments like that and he didn't then fine, it's up the his boss to do what he thinks is right. Whether this would have flown in the Attitude Era or not, it doesn't matter. He was told not to say things like that and he did. Case closed.

 

[therockiswwf]

To be fair if the XFL factored into the losses during that period then its difficult to have a true revenue estimation, Also initially the Network upon its release I remember hearing was quite a loss for them which may be a reason it has continued to grow financially every year since then.
I would have assumed the revenue for live touring, merchandising and PPV/network buys would have covered the majority of WWE's earnings as their shows like Raw and Smackdown are in themselves basically in a way a longer advert for their network or their latest PPV.
I can't see how wrestling fans as a whole are more intelligent or any less intelligent today than they were 10 or 20 years ago for appealing more to advertisers but again advertising protocol isn't someting I'm very familiar with.

The Network startup did cost them a ton of money (caused a loss in 2014). Now it's profitable for them. TV contracts made the most ($231m in 2015). Network made $159m and Live Events made $124m. Merchandise made $42m.

I'm not sure what the intelligence/monetary level was in the past for WWE. I only know the current level. That level tells them that fans have less money and little chance of improving, so the advertising slots should cost less.