Crimson... the "Red Herring"? | WrestleZone Forums

Crimson... the "Red Herring"?

P

Papa Pillman

I've got more Ho's than Jim Duggan
Is it possible that Fortune turning on Immortal was the plan all along? Not just a last-minute fix??

Think about it... Who did Russo write to be the foreshadower of this story? A new guy who happens to have red hair, is billed as Amazing Red's brother, and gets a name that is a shade of red. Then on top of it you give him a mafia hitman persona and attach him to a couple former MEM members(a group that wore red ties) to make them seem like the logically likely choice to be the new "They". While in reality the MEM hints were merely a ruse to distract from the real plan... the classic literary story-telling device of a "Red Herring".

What do you think? Was Crimson, the MEM, and their presentation of this story merely meant to be a red herring the whole time- a fact Russo may have been slyly alluding to by the use of the color red?? Or am I maybe just giving Russo to much Credit???
 
I do believe Fourtune was the plan all along. Bischoff has been disrespecting AJ for a while now.. he didnt just start on Sunday and Crimson isnt a former World Champ... why would he be in the MEM in the first place? Its not like he just showed up Sunday too. Used their status in immortal to get the second and third biggest titles in TNA and went their seperate ways. MEM was a decoy.
 
Is it possible? Yes. Is it plausible? Honestly, as arguably one of the biggest TNA marks on the forum, I doubt it.

I think TNA lucked out a bit with Crimson being in the position he was in, because in a sense, looking back on it in retrospect, he could be the red herring like you noted, or he could have simply been the hired messenger as was insinuated since day one of this angle. It's really impossible to know one way or the other.

Frankly—and I'm no dirt sheet rat—I think what we read was probably on point this time around, at least to a certain extent. I think TNA presumed they had Nash under contract and were going to move forward with someone like Lashley in place of Booker T were he to have not agreed to return either. That, or perhaps they were simply going to use Nash to further the storyline as a means to draw the Fortune turn out. Either way, I don't think Fortune turning was supposed to happen this soon.

I can't say one way or the other positively, but if I'm going out on a limb, you're giving Russo too much credit this time.
 
Of course it was planned all along. TNA was hinting an AJ Styles face turn for about a month now. Fourtune has ALWAYS been about Fourtune. Flair has ALWAYS hated Hogan (assuming Flair turns face too).

I've been saying this a lot - the M.E.M thing was simply a DECOY. Think of this: if TNA can sign Steiner a week before "they" are revealed, what was stopping them from signing Nash and Booker? Can they not reform the MEM without Nash and Booker? nWo was re-formed in WWE without Steiner, Buff Bagwell and all the other useless guys. Why? They were not important.

Fourtune was the plan ALL along and I'm certain of it. The whole M.E.M thing was all speculation by the IWC and the endless stream of dirt-sheets trying to stir the shit between TNA and WWE with the recent signings of Booker and Nash. Nash went to WWE for the money, Booker didn't even think of coming back to TNA. If he did, he would've already. Period.

Remember, this episode of iMPACT was booked on the very next day after the Royal Rumble and this was booked way to coherently to be mustered up in a matter of hours.
 
I definitely do not think MEM was going to be the entire storyline. I have wondered if it was any part of what was going on or just another example of the IWC talking about "obvious" things again. Fortune turning has definitely been slowly built up. Was it supposed to happen right away? Who knows? I doubt TNA was counting on Booker T. They likely would have brought Nash back but he would have been a role player since he still would have been have been doing his best gandalf impression.
 
No way was it going to be Fortune why would Crimson choke out AJ then if it was going to be Fortune all along.

I believe the plan was For Nash and Booker T. Nash said he signed with TNA in January but opted out when he saw Abyss have Janice stuck in his back and thought is was really stupid so he opted out of the contract which really screwed TNA.

I dont think its any good when the Face stable in stronger than the Heel stable.

I thought Robert Roode really stood out tonight and would like to see him get a singles push.

It should be intresting how TNA will try and clean this mess up.
 
No, Crimson was not a red herring. What was Crimson? He was the ONLY choice for the role he played. They couldn't have had someone from the Main Event Mafia come back, choke out Styles, and claim "They" were coming, because then it would've been given away right off the bat without any question. It wouldn't have left any clues as to who was coming, but it would've REVEALED who was coming. Same thing would've been the case if someone from Fourtune would've done it (if you're silly enough like Zeven_Zion to believe they were the plan from the beginning, even though that's so obviously bullshit).

The person pronouncing "They" were coming HAD to be no one. It had to be someone that no one knew and who had no connections to anything, otherwise it wouldn't have worked and the reveal would've been given away right from the start. Simple as that. Crimson wasn't a red herring, he was a necessary plot device. Even though he made no sense at all, but that's just proof of how bad the writing of this storyline was, because the only way it could work from the very start was by doing something that didn't make sense (or was just purely random).
 
Wow... Shattered and Zev... just wow.

It's cool you guys are TNA marks, but to just blindly defend the storyline that TNA screwed up by not hiring the right guys... just wow. I applaud your ignorance.

MeM WAS the original plan, and it was Spike TV's idea, they thought the return of the MeM was going to bring in ratings. TNA HAD KEVIN NASH SIGNED until he backed out (http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/kevin-nash-talks-barrett-not-selling-leaving-tna-more-122917) If MeM wasn't the plan all along they wouldn't have aired the preview saying it's not them like they did, they would have just let you be surprised. You can debate it all you want, but fact of the matter is, Fortune as "They" isn't nearly as good as MeM would have been.

And why would you think Nash and Booker would have gone to TNA over WWE? What can TNA give them? WWE is giving them cushy (and lucrative) backstage/desk jobs and somewhere down the line HoF spots, and speaking of HoF it's well documented that Nash wants to be there for HBK's HoF.

We get it, you hate WWE and love TNA. I'm not going to argue that, it's just ridiculous what lengths you'll go to to never say a bad word about them, even when they fuck up as royally as they have.
 
Maybe maybe not. I don't know anymore maybe it was the plan all along maybe not we can't know for sure. All we know for sure is as of sunday is that Nash and Booker were not coming back to tna. Other than that we can't know beacause we are not on the writting team. Was Fortune going to turn this soon maybe maybe not.
 
Yurnewhero said:
Wow... Shattered and Zev... just wow.

It's cool you guys are TNA marks, but to just blindly defend the storyline that TNA screwed up by not hiring the right guys... just wow. I applaud your ignorance.

MeM WAS the original plan, and it was Spike TV's idea, they thought the return of the MeM was going to bring in ratings. TNA HAD KEVIN NASH SIGNED until he backed out (http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/kevin-nash-talks-barrett-not-selling-leaving-tna-more-122917) If MeM wasn't the plan all along they wouldn't have aired the preview saying it's not them like they did, they would have just let you be surprised. You can debate it all you want, but fact of the matter is, Fortune as "They" isn't nearly as good as MeM would have been.

And why would you think Nash and Booker would have gone to TNA over WWE? What can TNA give them? WWE is giving them cushy (and lucrative) backstage/desk jobs and somewhere down the line HoF spots, and speaking of HoF it's well documented that Nash wants to be there for HBK's HoF.

We get it, you hate WWE and love TNA. I'm not going to argue that, it's just ridiculous what lengths you'll go to to never say a bad word about them, even when they fuck up as royally as they have.
Click to expand...

Can you show solid proof that it WAS going to be M.E.M before Nash backed out? There were more things pointing to a Fourtune face turn than a M.E.M come back up to that point. AJ Styles spelled it out MONTHS ago, Bischoff was shitting on him ever since he lost his belt, it was only a matter of time until he and Fourtune turned on them. If Fourtune turning face was not the plan, then why did they hint it?

If MEM was the plan, why have Steiner show up a week before the actual revealing and not AT the damn thing? Why would TNA ruin it? They didn't turn Bischoff heel the Thursday before Bound for Glory, did they?

I'm just saying - this whole MEM thing just seems like TNA stirring the pot and confusing the fans, it's typical of them. The face "they" storyline is a carbon copy of the heel version. Completely identical in psychology and outcome. That can't be a coincidence, that's planned.

Besides, think logically. The Main Event Mafia coming back to save TNA? Last time I saw them they were trying to take it over. Their gimmick was the greatest assembly of World Champions in history. If so, why is Crimson - a nobody - representing them. Why didn't Angle talk about "them"? Why would TNA scrap the entire storyline because of two people who weren't major players in it? They could EASILY replace them with Anderson and Styles or Anderson and RVD. Why?

What exactly made you believe that this was mustered up in the last minute? It sounds planned to me.
 
Gotta go with IDR on this one. I've already offered up my thoughts ad-nauseum on this very topic and I'm sticking with what I said.

First off, if you read any of Vince Russo's books (sadly, I have), you'll find that he's not exactly a literary genius. He has this feeling that he is "on the pulse" as a writer, but never claims to be an English language expert nor a reader of any sort. In fact, he talks about his son being into reading and such and his inability to connect to his son in that regard. Thus, to think Vince Russo is capable of conceiving a red herring is probably about as far off as you can get.

That is speculation on the lead writer's abilities. What is not speculation is the fact that Nash had actually signed with TNA and Booker T called TNA to say that he wouldn't be signing as they had discussed. These are facts that are out there pointing to the fact that their returns WERE going to happen. As for Sting, he's a mystery which is nothing new for him.

If you look at the storytelling, all the pieces were there for the Mafia to return. From the suits, to the "offer he couldn't refuse", to the hit he performed on Abyss, to Steiner showing up in a suit (which as I've said 10 times is the ONLY time in his career he wore a suit), all the pieces were there. The next logical step was to reveal the rest of the group to the world and reunite them. It was plain as day and would have worked out just fine. I was never a fan of it, but that was the plan.

Then, Booker and Nash bail. Problem with the plan. What to do? Booker gave some notice and I'm sure there was some inkling that Nash was gone too so TNA had a few days to come up with something. It's not a ton of time, but enough time to rewrite a show. If you do read some of these news updates, it's often times that TNA and WWE completely rewrite shows the day of the performance anyway so it's not anything the writers aren't prepared for. Thus, they had to come up with something and my guess is that they moved up an idea they had for down the road. While AJ might have left earlier due to tensions, the rest of Fortune probably would have followed in a few months. That said, it definitely wasn't in the cards for now.

AJ was the first one choked by Crimson and he nearly died. Quite far to sell that it's YOU that is coming, no? I know someone will say "decoy", by why do you need one? The story was contingent on Crimson killing people to make a point to the big group. Had Fortune been the group from the beginning, I would bet money that you would have seen Rob Terry or Gunner and Murphy choked out at the beginning, not AJ. Not everything has to be a swerve and in this case, it was done as one because it was a contingency plan.

It's ok to see it for what it is. It played out ok and yes, there are plotholes, but it will work itself out and people will forget in like 2 weeks just like Immortal. Long term, this is the better way to go but it certainly was not the plan for this early on. It's very early to split the group and when you think about it, it's silly in the sense that Immortal basically has nothing now given that Fortune has all the belts except the TV title which belongs to a dead man. That whole "leverage" thing Bischoff talked about is gone and he better book all his guys in matches at the next PPV for the belts because he has NO leverage at this point.

This was a contingency plan and it happened because a story was written and recorded up to its conclusion and in that time, the players needed for that conclusion were not signed. You can blame it on TNA or the performers but it didn't happen. It sucks but it happens. They got bested here, but at least their contingency plan is something the fans can get behind. It wasn't the original plan, but it's a plan that people will like. People like AJ and Beer Money, so it could work in some sense. Let's let it play out, but forget about "this was the plan all along" because it most certainly was not. Doesn't mean it's not the better plan, but it wasn't the plan until maybe late last week.
 
Do you know what "whole" means? Clearly a MEM element was going to be PART of the story. Depending on what is going on with Sting it could still easily be part of the story. The other part of the story was going to be fortune turning on immortal. I suspect they moved that part up some but not a huge difference. I have seen no evidence that TNA was depending on Booker T at all. Nash fucked them over but that hardly changes everything. Nash is not the entire MEM. I am actually glad Nash is gone seeing his general attitude at the moment. He had nothing left in the ring and had been proving he wasn't worth it for a while. He could have added something to the story on the mic but it is no great loss.
 
My feeling like Shattered said Is that the MEM was PART of the Storyline but not the whole thing. The AJ face turn has been being built for awhile now but not so much with Kaz and Beer Money, I think what would've happened if Nash resigned it would allow for a short MEM run with Angle, Nash, Steiner, Crimson and possibly Booker T being the members this would've allowed for the Fortune turn to be Built for a little longer but this was not that case, Now I don't know when the plans changed it could've been Saturday or could've been a Week ago but for me in the long term this better because it allows for the Young Guys be to put in the Spotlight.
 
Zeven_Zion said:
Can you show solid proof that it WAS going to be M.E.M before Nash backed out? There were more things pointing to a Fourtune face turn than a M.E.M come back up to that point. AJ Styles spelled it out MONTHS ago, Bischoff was shitting on him ever since he lost his belt, it was only a matter of time until he and Fourtune turned on them. If Fourtune turning face was not the plan, then why did they hint it?

If MEM was the plan, why have Steiner show up a week before the actual revealing and not AT the damn thing? Why would TNA ruin it? They didn't turn Bischoff heel the Thursday before Bound for Glory, did they?

I'm just saying - this whole MEM thing just seems like TNA stirring the pot and confusing the fans, it's typical of them. The face "they" storyline is a carbon copy of the heel version. Completely identical in psychology and outcome. That can't be a coincidence, that's planned.

Besides, think logically. The Main Event Mafia coming back to save TNA? Last time I saw them they were trying to take it over. Their gimmick was the greatest assembly of World Champions in history. If so, why is Crimson - a nobody - representing them. Why didn't Angle talk about "them"? Why would TNA scrap the entire storyline because of two people who weren't major players in it? They could EASILY replace them with Anderson and Styles or Anderson and RVD. Why?

What exactly made you believe that this was mustered up in the last minute? It sounds planned to me.
Click to expand...

Once agin, Spike TV told TNA they wanted MeM back. They just hired Scott Steiner, and tried getting back Nash, Booker, and Sting. What the hell do you think they were going to do with all those guys? Lemme ask you something, outside of MeM why would they hire Steiner? Especially since Ric Flair demanded he never be rehired when he signed with TNA.

As for AJ Styles, yes they most certainly hinted at a turn for HIM, not all of Immortal. AJ was most likely going to join the Main Event Mafia. And you do realize Fortune splitting from Immortal leaves virtually no one left in Immortal. Since Anngle is feuding with Jarrett and Abyss is out it's going to be Fortune vs. The Hardy's and Gunner and Murphey. If that was the plan all along it's even sadder than planning an angle without the needed people.

Once again, Why would Steiner show up at all if not for MeM? It wouldn't be worth TNA (in their minds) to piss off Flair without a huge payoff.

This whole Fortune thing reeks far more of doing their best to cover a bad situation than it is "stirring the pot"

Crimson was a mirror for Abyss, MeM didn't have anyone who could fill that role, and if they were trying to make you think MeM and swerve it would have been Steiner or Angle attacking people and talking about "they"

Why is it so hard to acknowledge TNA isn't perfect?
 
JJYanks points out very good reasoning as to why the plan all along was clearly for the MEM to return, and the storytelling proves that. Unless Russo is completely incompetent at storytelling (which is possible) then it was clearly the MEM. There weren't any clues towards "They" ever being Fourtune, nor did the storytelling ever point to any reason Fourtune, as a group, would be "They". AJ Styles having some problems with Bischoff is not some clear and overwhelming set up for Fourtune to randomly turn on Immortal.



But, to the people who just can't accept or admit that TNA changed courses because they had no other options and are claiming the Main Event Mafia were not the original plan, here's what doesn't make sense in that logic and proves it's completely WRONG. Impact is taped, correct? This weeks Impact was taped long before hand. Yet, the opening segment of Impact completely hinted at the Main Event Mafia being reformed, and Bischoff trying to prevent it. It was then of course followed at the end of the show by the not so shocking swerve and turn by Fourtune.

Why would TNA put out a video on Tuesday, then, revealing that the Main Event Mafia were NOT "They" and that someone else was "They" , if they weren't trying to desperately save face and pretend like that wasn't the plan all along... when they then taped a segment on the SHOW that hints at the Main Event Mafia returning, and continues to validate the MEM as an option. That totally contradicts the video?

I repeat: Why would TNA put out a video that disregards the Main Event Mafia option, when they have a segment on their show done specifically to keep the audience guessing and wondering whose "They" and if they could be the MEM? It doesn't make sense! The two contradict themselves!

If they had used the MEM as a red herring and WANTED everyone to think it was them when it wasn't, as some TNA marks are claiming, then there'd have been absolutely NO need for the video at all, which denied the MEM was ever coming back... before that was suppose to be revealed on the show as part of the "shock"! :lol:
 
MisterRob said:
JJYanks points out very good reasoning as to why the plan all along was clearly for the MEM to return, and the storytelling proves that. Unless Russo is completely incompetent at storytelling (which is possible) then it was clearly the MEM. There weren't any clues towards "They" ever being Fourtune, nor did the storytelling ever point to any reason Fourtune, as a group, would be "They". AJ Styles having some problems with Bischoff is not some clear and overwhelming set up for Fourtune to randomly turn on Immortal.



But, to the people who just can't accept or admit that TNA changed courses because they had no other options and are claiming the Main Event Mafia were not the original plan, here's what doesn't make sense in that logic and proves it's completely WRONG. Impact is taped, correct? This weeks Impact was taped long before hand. Yet, the opening segment of Impact completely hinted at the Main Event Mafia being reformed, and Bischoff trying to prevent it. It was then of course followed at the end of the show by the not so shocking swerve and turn by Fourtune.

Why would TNA put out a video on Tuesday, then, revealing that the Main Event Mafia were NOT "They" and that someone else was "They" , if they weren't trying to desperately save face and pretend like that wasn't the plan all along... when they then taped a segment on the SHOW that hints at the Main Event Mafia returning, and continues to validate the MEM as an option. That totally contradicts the video?

I repeat: Why would TNA put out a video that disregards the Main Event Mafia option, when they have a segment on their show done specifically to keep the audience guessing and wondering whose "They" and if they could be the MEM? It doesn't make sense! The two contradict themselves!

If they had used the MEM as a red herring and WANTED everyone to think it was them when it wasn't, as some TNA marks are claiming, then there'd have been absolutely NO need for the video at all, which denied the MEM was ever coming back... before that was suppose to be revealed on the show as part of the "shock"! :lol:[/QUOTE


You make a good point except for one thing. I may be wrong but are the tapings on the mondays for the thursday show on the same week and the Thuesday tapings for the Thursday show on the next week?
Click to expand...
 
I forget which episode but I remember awhile back when Styles got upset at Eric and the rest of Immortal and he was telling Beer Money and Kaz how they were always the core four and they should of never joined immortal and etc etc...I believe he even used the exact words "Core Four" ...kind of interesting The Corre later debut in the WWE.

Werent these tapings done over the weekend? I seem to remember the spoilers showing up during RAW or after the PPV...I was a little confused by what Eric was saying at the top of the show because I saw a facebook update on Friday before the rumble that said "tapings this weekend"...
 
Papa Pillman said:
Is it possible that Fortune turning on Immortal was the plan all along? Not just a last-minute fix??

Think about it... Who did Russo write to be the foreshadower of this story? A new guy who happens to have red hair, is billed as Amazing Red's brother, and gets a name that is a shade of red. Then on top of it you give him a mafia hitman persona and attach him to a couple former MEM members(a group that wore red ties) to make them seem like the logically likely choice to be the new "They". While in reality the MEM hints were merely a ruse to distract from the real plan... the classic literary story-telling device of a "Red Herring".

What do you think? Was Crimson, the MEM, and their presentation of this story merely meant to be a red herring the whole time- a fact Russo may have been slyly alluding to by the use of the color red?? Or am I maybe just giving Russo to much Credit???
Click to expand...

I believe that you're an extremely smart person to have deducted all of these things, but I think you're giving Russo way to much credit. I do like TNA, I'm not a WWE fanboy who bashes everything in TNA. One of the things I do bash in TNA though ..is Vince Russo. Dude is a tool. No way he was THIS SMART. Lol.. but you're pretty dope for coming up with all this. Kudos.
 
You TNA marks are funny.

This was Russo Emergency Fix up 101.

It was obvious it was MEM. They thought they had Nash, they thought Book would come in, Sting eventually too most likely. Steiner comes back a couple of weeks ago in a suit... ok so what other time in his career did he wear one of those? umm never

It was MEM, Rumble happens, Booker T and Nash are Fed, that promo shows its likely Sting coming to WWE also... quick turn the rest of Fourtune and they are the 'They'.

Its not terribad but its also not what they wanted to do and don't kid yourselves otherwise.
 
Everybody, including the experts, have said MEM is coming back as "They". Well, they did not. Instead we got fortune as the TNA saviors in a drawn out double-turn. This has been planned from the beginning and a few things lead me to that conclusive.

Going back a few weeks, Bischoff was pretty hard on AJ for losing before the "They" storyline started. Then they book fortune to win 2 of the belts (after so much talk about belts = power, fortune had them).
Nash says to have pulled out of his contract back in January.

This has all the signs of a Bischoff taking everyone on a ride one way (playing the internet community) and leading us off the cliff because we were wrong. In fact, he reached back for TNA fans that have been following for a few years and teased a return of a previous faction of beloved over-the-hill megastars. I can even understand the suits for Kurt and Steiner - after all they are the "elder statesmen" of Pre-Hogan TNA. They should be called Mr. Steiner and Mr. Angle. And Crimson -well he got a great offer he couldnt refuse and joined as new-blood (ironic because Nash got an offer he couldnt refuse and returned as old-blood).

I enjoyed the Fortune turn tonight. And am glad its something that has got me interested in the storyline again.
 
yes it is possible but to be honest i dont think it was planned for it to be fortune all along i like how fortune turned on immortal i always thought fortune should have been face sense they were DEFENDING the company THEY started and it really makes sense i loved the "we want 6 sides" chant on iMPACT tonight! lmfao but i do think MEM was the original plan but sense nash and booker went to WWE instead of coming back to TNA russo went with a last minute plan b which was Fortune turning face.....if fortune was the original plan then why would crimson have choked out AJ Styles?
 
I think it should be noted that Eric made sure to point out Flair was missing all night. I am sure this will play into the storyline somehow.

I would also say that AJ being taken off the PPV because he was "hurt" would also come into play too.
 
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/TNA_News_1/article_47427.shtml

According to an interview Kurt Angle gave on radio.thescore.com, here is what Angle had to say regarding his potential future and on the subject of Kevin Nash & Booker T:

"My contract's up in August. I'm going to keep the option open," Angle told Mauro Ranallo on the Fight Show satellite radio show on Thursday. "I like TNA. I like being there. I like that the company has built the last four-and-a-half years since I've been there. I don't have any plans of leaving, but I don't think Kevin Nash and Booker T had plans of jumping either."

He further went on to say in regards to Nash & Booker:

"They were actually, until a couple days before the Rumble, signed with TNA. In essence, they asked for their release at the last second and TNA gave them their wish. I'm going to do what's best for Kurt Angle and they've treated me well here."

Compare that with Dixie Carter's comments on a Fan Questions & Answer segment that she posted last Thursday:

"Booker was not available for any MEM angle. "Kevin Nash was under contract with TNA and was just recently released for reasons I will not disclose."

So what we've got here are two conflicting stories, which means either Kurt Angle or Dixie Carter is shoveling some bullshit. I'm more inclined to go with Dixie Carter as it woudln't be the first time she's shaded the truth. After all, Kurt Angle has absolutely no reason to lie about it does he? It's not like he has any hard feelings towards TNA or Dixie Carter and would purposely say something to embarass. So, why would he say that Booker T was with the company if he actually wasn't? As for Kevin Nash, Dixie said that she wouldn't discuss the reasons why he was released from his contract.

So, yeah I'm not just gonna automatically believe that the MEM was never returning. I will grant that there's always that the MEM wasn't intended to be "They" all along because we'll never be 100% sure either way. But we've got two very prominent people with TNA giving conflicting stories.
 
If they were signed with TNA till a few days until Rumble and TNA taped the monday night after Rumble...its not really TNAs fault is it?

This sort of thing could happen to the WWE...granted Vince would probably sue the wrestler or the agent in charge of contracts...
 
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