Chris Jericho - The Rate Debate

[jmt225]

Honestly Tenta, outside of his absolutely phenomenal stuff against Dean Malenko (and Ralphus), I've actually never been a fan of Jericho's mic-work. Everything just seems so forced to me. For example, his work with Stephanie McMahon early this decade... that shit was just horrendous, in my opinion. The guy has always come off to me as simply being a poor man's Rock, as far as mic-work is concerned.

All I ask from Jericho is for his matches to deliver, and that's why I like his work as the Lionheart more than any stuff he's done since going to WWE, because those matches when he was Lionheart ALWAYS delivered. Whereas I'd say we're lucky to have 6 really good matches from Jericho a year, nowadays. Thinking about it, that's probably been about his average since going to WWE: 6 great matches a year. Granted, some of those matches I consider to be in the rankings of greatest of all time (HBK vs. Jericho at 'Mania 19, for example), but I'd take a consistent in-ring performer over someone who only pulls out his best stuff for 'special occasions' any time.

Now, with that said, I have to agree with you Tenta that I absolutely cannot blame Jericho for any of this, but that still doesn't keep me from not liking the situation of the matter.

 

[Tenta]

Honestly Tenta, outside of his absolutely phenomenal stuff against Dean Malenko (and Rufus), I've actually never been a fan of Jericho's mic-work. Everything just seems so forced to me. For example, his work with Stephanie McMahon early this decade... that shit was just horrendous, in my opinion. The guy has always come off to me as simply being a poor man's Rock, as far as mic-work is concerned.

Welcome to promos, nowadays, JMT. But you have to give credit in this former; Y2J, like HBK, Trips, and Taker, refuses the Writer's stuff. The entire Jericho/HBK feud was more or less booked by both Shawn and Chris, promos included. That was the feud of the year, and was completely done by these two wrestlers.

Now, that goes into a deeper question on whether writers are really needed, but that's neither here nor there. I have infinite respect for someone who constantly comes up with their stuff, as opposed to relying on Creative (Cough.... Cena... Cough). Is it forced? Perhaps, but it's also roiginal from Jericho's mind. And that's more than you can see from most wrestlers now.

By the way, to be a Rock-lite isn't that poor, man. If you think about it, The Rock was one of the best. That's more or less praise to even think he's a little less than The Rock.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Recently, in the forums Spam Zone, resdient blowhard Lord Sidious asserted that a Chris Jericho DVD wasn't worth watching because he is "overrated." In fact, let's go to the video tape:

Lord Sidious has kindly declined my invitation to debate this matter with me, though I have a feeling he'll be unable to resist once he sees the thread. Even still, Sidious alone just cannot stand toe to toe with me on this point, so I figured I'd open it up to everyone.

Never said I was officially declining your invitation, Sean William. Not participating when you WANTED me too wasn't an outright, decline. Rather I simply told you to "wait until the time is right". Patience is a virtue, you know?

Now, I'll offer a couple general comments on Chris Jericho-- one of my absolute favorite topics to discuss .... and after I have a chance to briefly respond to some of your comments.

I will say that what irritates me more than Chris Jericho is actually more so Chris Jericho's fans. And let's face it ... that is mostly the Internet. And the reason why they annoy the Hell out of me is because they are truly blinded by this individual, and it's pathetic.

And I speculate that a lot of it is simply because of Jericho's personality. He comes across as cool and is Internet savvy with the IWC. To them, he really is a Rock Star, and just like a bunch of groupies with Rock bands, so his fans conduct themselves in similar fashion.

Fact of the matter is that Jericho is a "very good" performer .. but he isn't great. You (his fans) want to view him as a Main Eventer. He isn't. He is an Upper Midcarder and Part Time Main Eventer. That is a fact.

But there is a reason why that is. It's because Jericho consistently FAILS to deliver during the Big Matches. And that is what WWE wants. Personally, I think there is entirely too much emphasis on the technicality in aspect in grading wrestling matches, and feel that this doesn't necessarily make am enjoyable and entertaining match for me (or necessarily the casual fans) ... but nonetheless this is WWE's priorities and criteria. And again, Jericho simply delivers nothing spectacular in this department.

He is an above average worker, but not the God he is made out to be by the IWC.

He has only Main Evented ONE Main Event as Wrestlemania, which was one I was in attendance for in Toronto. And by and large, this was one of the more disappointing Main Events in Wrestlemania history. And after that performance, Jericho did not Main Event ever again.

Quite frankly, I am tired of hearing the sad sob story that "Triple H is holding him back" and all that nonsense.

Chris Jericho is simply not a draw. He has proven time and time again that he simply does not draw as a Champion. Even as a Heel, which again by far and large I consistently hear from you all that he is at his best, he does not draw. He is not in Cena's league. He is not in Triple H's league.

Ironically enough, he is actually in the same league as none other than his Tag Team partner, The Big Show, in the sense of being a draw.

Let's discuss his character for a bit -- more specifically his current persona. Ironically enough, this character who his Internet posse absolutely falls at his feet for, is truly one of THE MOST OVER-RATED HEELS in WWE HISTORY.

His promos are generic. He says the same exact shit over and over again.

Let me see if you've heard this before ....


"Blah, blah, blah hypocrites."

"Blah, blah, blah parasites."

"Blah, blah, blah I am the best in the world at what I do."

"Blah, blah Wrestler of the year ... blah, blah"


Now, I dare say that if this were anyone else ... ANYONE ELSE, other than Chris Jericho, the Internet would be tearing this person to pieces. And you know deep down, that's true.

Let me make perfectly clear for those that say that "Lord Sidious doesn't understand Chris Jericho's character."

Incorrect. I perfectly understand this character as being supposedly the complete opposite of Y2J. From the character to the wardrobe, to everything. What I am saying is that in terms of over-rated Heels, this version of Chris Jericho takes the cake and should go down in history as one of the most over-rated Heels in the history of wrestling.

But then again, I need to keep in mind that this is Jericho's very loud and obnoxious fanbase talking ... not the casual wrestling audience. And this is nothing more than Internet hype.

Chris Jericho is one of the best heels of today ... and unfortunately that isn't saying much. Fans of wrestling back in the Attitude Era up through today may not know better .... however fans in the Hogan and New Generation Eras DO KNOW BETTER.

And that is a testament to his reaction in arenas.

When you look at heels the likes of:

"The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase
Ric Flair
Sgt. Slaughter
Rowdy Roddy Piper
Ravishing Rick Rude
Jake "The Snake" Roberts
The Honky Tonk Man
Mr. Perfect
Jerry "The King" Lawler
and even as a Heel announcer on the mic- Jesse "The Body" Ventura


And this would normally be where the ROH-botz would like to come in and spew their garbage about how "none of those names are as good as Jericho in the ring". Too bad we aren't discussing ring skills here. We are talking about the greatness of one's Heel character.

And yes, people can say that it was a "different time and place", but you mark my words .... if you put any of those names above and place them in the ring today (from their prime) ... they would still draw just as much heat today as they did back in their day.

With that being my opening comments, let's see what you have to say, SWS:

Here, in brief, is my statement on the matter:
1. Chris Jericho is among the most consistent, dynamic performers in the last 25 years.

Consistent ... sure. I'm not disputing that.

How do you define "dynamic", specifically in this case? I simply don't want you tossing marketable-sounding words around, for the sake of hyping your case.

When people think back to the few non-nWo angles that were over / entertaining back in the 90's, often times it was the luchador matches and high-flying mid-carders who come to mind. But during much of that era, do you know who was one of the longest reigning Cruiserweight Champions? Chris Jericho was. He defeated men like Dean Milenko, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and Psicosis on a weekly basis, and was often depended on to open PPV's to fire up the crowds. He drew mega heat as an obnoxious, whiny heel, but somehow backed it up in the ring.

If only you ROH-Botz would figure it out. Maybe eventually you will. Ring skills are important, but not vital. Too much emphasis is placed on them in this day and age. And where as I am not saying that everyone shouldn't give a shit about wrestling ability .... I will NOT advocate emphasizing wrestling ability over emphasizing and investing in one's character. That is FAR more important than ring skills with getting over with the audience.

Jericho was a comical Heel in WCW and he did some funny stuff that I got a chuckle over. The stuff with Ralphus was great.

But yes, he put on decent matches back then. Let's continue:

He also went on to win the WCW Television Title and consistently defend that.

Keep in mind that ANYONE can be awarded with a title, and be required to defend it. But let's move on to his debut with WWE.

His debut in the WWF is often considered one of the best wrestler debuts in the history of wrestling, and the best part about it? It was all Jericho's idea. The Countdown clock, the promo, ALL OF IT. And Vince and co. believed in him so much, that they had him interrupt The Rock, of all people.

Well, let's be frank here. The reason Jericho's debut was magic to begin with was really because of WHO is segment was with, more than anything ... that being The Rock.

The Countdown Clock was a catchy gimmick. However, are you honestly going to try to claim with a straight face that this was Chris Jericho's idea? Give me a break.

As head of the Creative Team, Vince Russo gets the credit for that one. That was back when the Creative Team actually knew what the Hell they were doing and McMahon had more of a backseat role.

And it did give Jericho a good debut. But let's not kid ourselves and pretend like Jericho designed his debut and all that stuff.

Currently, Jericho is the most consistent part of the WWE product. He seemlessly moves from the World Title pictures (think 2008 scramble match), through drama-heavy feuds (vs Michaels, Mysterio), to basically carrying the tag division as well as a partner (Big Show) who was stuck in limbo.

And he's reliable as far as an above average worker. Above average workers are expected to be able to be rotated around the roster to do Big feuds, participate in Tag Team, etc. How is this any different than what his partner, The Big Show, is doing?

2. Jericho is among the most innovative and creative wrestling minds of the last 25 years.

Oh really? Let's talk about this.

I already mentioned the countdown clock.

And again, let's be real. Jericho is NOT going to have control over something like this with his debut. That was the Creative Team, not Chris Jericho.

How about the Money in the Bank ladder match? Currently a Wrestlemania tradition, this idea was Jericho's and was pitched to Bischoff. IT WORKED.

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that this was a Non-Kayfabe forum. I must have made a wrong turn into the Kayfabe section, because last time I checked, Eric Bischoff did not have a Creative role in WWE.

Go back to WCW. Remember Ralphus? Ridiculous as it was, it was funny and an iconic part of Jericho's obnoxious persona. Jericho's idea. He picked Ralphus out, almost by accident, from the ring crew. Turned Ralphus into a mega-star.

And Jericho deserves credit for this one, as this was his idea.

3. Jericho isn't a liability.

Chris Jericho has never been injured in the ring. Ever. He's a safe competitor, which is rare for a guy though of as a "high flyer." He has that classic "Stu Hart's Dungeon" pedigree, where the emphasis is on using the match to tell an athletic story AND protecting yourself and your opponent.

Jericho is not a high flyer. I was in attendance at several TV tapings where he slipped off the Middle Rope doing relatively low risk moves.

But yes, he is a safe worker. How many other wrestlers also have reputations for being safe workers in the history of the business?

Although, being a safe worker, and again being a Main Event attraction, are two different things.

4. Jericho is a multi-faceted attraction.

Pro wrestler. Rock band front man. Hockey player. Jericho is so marketable because his reach is so broad. Part of that is a function of his work ethic and another part his god-given charisma. He's a consummate performer.

Big deal? What has ANY of that done to help him in WWE? Not a damn thing.

He could not quit WWE and expect to make a living doing any of that. He may be able to retire at this point, but all of that would have been from his tenure in WWE ... and has NOTHING to do with Fozzy, playing Hockey, or any of that stuff.

Yes, he has charisma ... but that is unrelated to doing any of his extra-curricular activities.

And yet you called him overrated?

Yes. Highly. But that is more so because of his rather blind Internet fanbase ... more so than him. My job is to bring his fanbase back down to Planet Earth and be given a hard dose of Reality Check.

Chris Jericho ... consistent performer? Sure.

Main Eventer and "one of the Greatest of all Time?"? Bullshit.


SWS, you were really better off sticking to B movies than you are debating.

Disclaimer from Lord Sidious: Unfortunately, the only one I plan on interacting with in this thread is IC25. Modding the WWE Forum, which is the highest trafficked section on the site, is extremely time-consuming, and I unfortunately don't have the time to do the administrative duties of my job AND get into several lengthy debates with several posters at the same time. Doing several lengthy debates, while reading through EVERY post made in the section, while dealing with PM's over various matters, and spending adequate time in all the WWE sections isn't easy ... so I have to manage my time properly. If I don't respond to you in this thread, I'm sorry, but I can't have lengthy debates with everyone.

 

[CHAOS]

Jesus Christ Sidious! How long you been working on that?

Look, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, particularly the part about saying the same thing every week, believe it or not, that's how catchphrases begin! Seriously, what the hell has HBK said in the last few months besides "If you're not down with that, we got two words for you...."

As for the rest of your 'book', I don't think we'll ever agree on Chris Jericho, so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you on that and enjoy him from my point-of-view as one of the best performers of this generation.

 

[Tenta]

I will say that what irritates me more than Chris Jericho is actually more so Chris Jericho's fans. And let's face it ... that is mostly the Internet. And the reason why they annoy the Hell out of me is because they are truly blinded by this individual, and it's pathetic.

And exactly what makes us blind to him? Where does this blindness come from? Because we like him? The fact is, Sidious, we're allowed to like whoever we damn well please. Who are you to say that it's not right for us to like the guy?

And I speculate that a lot of it is simply because of Jericho's personality. He comes across as cool and is Internet savvy with the IWC. To them, he really is a Rock Star, and just like a bunch of groupies with Rock bands, so his fans conduct themselves in similar fashion.

You know.... I'm going to be the first to say it.

I think the guy kind of acts like a dick. He's had multiple incidents with fans. He's thrown around homophobic slurs. He just doesn't seem like that nice a guy, honestly. Charming, perhaps, but not a particularly good guy. I don't like him personally.

Having said that, I appreciate his work. Because the guy is the best worker, right now, in the WWE. Right now, that and two bucks will get you chewing gum, but the guy still just works good matches.

Fact of the matter is that Jericho is a "very good" performer .. but he isn't great. You (his fans) want to view him as a Main Eventer. He isn't. He is an Upper Midcarder and Part Time Main Eventer. That is a fact.

You know.... I agree.

Chris Jericho, for his career, has been a midcarder, up until this recent run, ever since he came back to the WWE from his break.

But look at the names that were on the main event marquee during his work.

Austin.
Rock.
Triple H.
Mankind.
Undertaker.
Michaels.
Angle.
Hogan.
Flair.

You mean to tell me there's any shame to being in the mid card when the WWE is touting these names. My God, every one of those wrestlers will be in the Hall of Fame the first chance they can get. So yeah, while the guy has a history of being a mid card, consider all the names that were working main events, at this point, and through Jericho's career.

Now, when these names do are gone, who do they always turn to? For that matter, who do they turn to now?

Jericho.

The sad fact, Jericho's prime came at a time where it was nearly impossible to reach the main event. Counting off against that guy for having to work in a pool with these names is just flat out wrong. Period.

But there is a reason why that is. It's because Jericho consistently FAILS to deliver during the Big Matches. And that is what WWE wants. Personally, I think there is entirely too much emphasis on the technicality in aspect in grading wrestling matches, and feel that this doesn't necessarily make am enjoyable and entertaining match for me (or necessarily the casual fans) ... but nonetheless this is WWE's priorities and criteria. And again, Jericho simply delivers nothing spectacular in this department.

I would disagree. If you didn't think his ladder match with Shawn wasn't great, you're out of your mind. If you didn't think he was spectacular in his feud with Austin in 2001, you're fucking nuts. If you believe that even in his work with Benoit and Angle in 2000 wasn't great, I don't understand how you can call yourself a fan. The fact is, I fell as though you're judging this based off the history of one match, which we will get to in a bit.

He is an above average worker, but not the God he is made out to be by the IWC.

In the world of the WWE, he's the best they got. And that's not even dealing with his prime. Then again, we're going to have understand what your context of worker is.

He has only Main Evented ONE Main Event as Wrestlemania, which was one I was in attendance for in Toronot. And by and large, this was one of the more disappointing Main Events in Wrestlemania history. And after that performance, Jericho did not Main Event ever again.

And here we go.... The basis of Lord Sidious' reasoning for believing what he does.... Wrestlemania 18.

Now, there's plenty of factors why this didn't work. However, Sid, I want you to answer some questions:

1. You were there. Did you not watch history being made only an hour earlier, with possibly the greatest dream match in Wrestlemania History.... Rock and Hogan.

Now, you were there.... That was the semi-main event, no? There were two more matches.

Was the crowd not dead for a good portion of time after it? Now, here's the big question, Sidious... Was it because of Jericho's performance, or because the fans had just seen excellence, and there was no way to duplicate that.

Second question.... Did the WWE decide to make this feud about Jericho and Triple H? Or was Jericho a pawn in the feud of Steph VS. Trips? We know how much the McMahons love the spotlight. Don't you think it was possible that they overbooked this match to Hell, to the point there was no way to get the fans truly emotionally invested?

Third Question... How many legitimate matches had Triple H worked before this PPV? He was in a Rumble, and that was pretty much it. He had just returned from Quad Surgery, and to say his timing was off is an understatement.

So with all of these theories surround this issue.... Again, how much can you blame Chris Jericho?

Quite frankly, I am tired of hearing the sad sob story that "Triple H is holding him back" and all that nonsense.

Cool by me. So am I. But that doesn't mean there isn't a basis to the argument.

Chris Jericho is simply not a draw. He has proven time and time again that he simply does not draw as a Champion. Even as a Heel, which again by far and large I consistently hear from you all that he is at his best, he does not draw. He is not in Cena's league. He is not in Triple H's league.

Ok.... I'll say it....

Triple H is a horrendously drawing champion. None of what he does is entertaining as champion, aside from his feud with the Rock. His run from 2003-2005 is some of the worst business the WWE has ever done. Instead of elevating names like Kane, RVD, and yes, Jericho, all mad over, Triple H clutched the title, not allowing any spotlight to hit others. There was resentment. The IWC knows about it. And no one was entertained.

Now then, Jericho has only had two reigns. Two. One was almost aborted, because Cena was coming back, and the other, he wasn't even the main focal point. You can't chalk up his "failures" to his own performance... I'd point to the horeendous booking that surrounded him at this time.

Let's discuss his character for a bit -- more specifically his current persona. Ironically enough, this character who his Internet posse absolutely falls at his feet for, is truly one of THE MOST OVER-RATED HEELS in WWE HISTORY.

His promos are generic. He says the same exact shit over and over again.

Let me see if you've heard this before ....


"Blah, blah, blah hypocrites."

"Blah, blah, blah parasites."

"Blah, blah, blah I am the best in the world at what I do."

"Blah, blah Wrestler of the year ... blah, blah"


Now, I dare say that if this were anyone else ... ANYONE ELSE, other than Chris Jericho, the Internet would be tearing this person to pieces. And you know deep down, that's true.

Let me make perfectly clear for those that say that "Lord Sidious doesn't understand Chris Jericho's character."

Well, actually, that is what I was about to say. Do you not understand that this was a man who, in his mind, was betrayed by the fans? And when someone's betrayed, they simply can't be the same wrestler.

Look at Sting. Betrayed character. Can't be the same ever again. Randy Orton; Betrayed, can't ever let it go.

This feeling of betrayal for wrestlers, usually leads to a character that won't give the fans what they want. And what do the fans want; they want light-hearted Chris Jericho. They want jokes. They want laughs. They want snide remarks with a smirk.

So Chris Jericho just won't give it. Simple as that.

Incorrect. I perfectly understand this character as being supposedly the complete opposite of Y2J. From the character to the wardrobe, to everything. What I am saying is that in terms of over-rated Heels, this version of Chris Jericho takes the cake and should go down in history as one of the most over-rated Heels in the history of wrestling.

But then again, I need to keep in mind that this is Jericho's very loud and obnoxious fanbase talking ... not the casual wrestling audience. And this is nothing more than Internet hype.

I fail to see the justification for calling him overrated. Though I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, because you are an excellent poster, and I will believe you have a reason below.

Chris Jericho is one of the best heels of today ... and unfortunately that isn't saying much. Fans of wrestling back in the Attitude Era up through today may not know better .... however fans in the Hogan and New Generation Eras DO KNOW BETTER.

I was a fan of both, Sidious. You know this. Let’s see how I don’t know better.

And that is a testament to his reaction in arenas.

And what’s wrong with them? He typically gets the most boos out of anyone on the card. That’s why he’s on both programs; to allow for wrestlers to get the heat from both shows, and to allow the rub to be felt.

And this would normally be where the ROH-botz would like to come in and spew their garbage about how "none of those names are as good as Jericho in the ring". Too bad we aren't discussing ring skills here. We are talking about the greatness of one's Heel character.

Agreed, so we’ll stick to that portion of the argument.

And yes, people can say that it was a "different time and place", but you mark my words .... if you put any of those names above and place them in the ring today (from their prime) ... they would still draw just as much heat today as they did back in their day.

Agreed. I never said they wouldn’t.

If only you ROH-Botz would figure it out. Maybe eventually you will. Ring skills are important, but not vital. Too much emphasis is placed on them in this day and age. And where as I am not saying that everyone shouldn't give a shit about wrestling ability .... I will NOT advocate emphasizing wrestling ability over emphasizing and investing in one's character. That is FAR more important than ring skills with getting over with the audience.

Thus, we agree here. And I don’t think Jericho sacrifices that for the sake of his character.

In fact, if anything, he’s sacrificed his ring skills to benefit his character. Now, he works a much slower match, one in which he’s more grounded, and relies on more rest holds. It’s not that he doesn’t have it anymore, he’s aware that’s what his character wants. He doesn’t want the fans to get the satisfaction of watching him flip backwards to do cool moves. Rather, he goes about his business, almost taunting that he isn’t the same wrestler.

Well, let's be frank here. The reason Jericho's debut was magic to begin with was really because of WHO is segment was with, more than anything ... that being The Rock.

Agreed, and it’s a general rule… Good worker, plus good worker, equals gold.

Still, Jericho doesn’t have a Rock now. He doesn’t have an Austin to work with. You know what he has? A lameduck HBK, a past his prime Triple H, and a scripted John Cena. Pardon me if you’re not getting the same Chris Jericho.

The Countdown Clock was a catchy gimmick. However, are you honestly going to try to claim with a straight face that this was Chris Jericho's idea? Give me a break.

You got insight to tell us otherwise.

As head of the Creative Team, Vince Russo gets the credit for that one. That was back when the Creative Team actually knew what the Hell they were doing and McMahon had more of a backseat role.

Now, this I’ll dispute, though it has little to do with the discussion. It’s clear that Vince had more of a role than you give him credit for. And why? Because Russo tried to take that exact same logic, and that very same style to WCW, where he was the head booker, and answered to no one.

And he failed. He epically failed.

And it did give Jericho a good debut. But let's not kid ourselves and pretend like Jericho designed his debut and all that stuff.

And why not? He’s currently one of few wrestlers to go without a script now. From what I hear, many of the ideas for Y2J’s character in WCW had to come from him, because no one else gave him the time of day. And his Y2J character is very similar to that same cocky heel in WCW.

So why am I not to believe some of it was his design?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that this was a Non-Kayfabe forum. I must have made a wrong turn into the Kayfabe section, because last time I checked, Eric Bischoff did not have a Creative role in WWE.

Actually, Sidious, while technically, Bischoff was not a member of creative, he did, in fact, pitch many ideas to Vince, and Vince did in fact take them. It was Eric’s idea for him to work with Steve, regarding their past in WCW. And I believe this actually did come from Eric.

Jericho is not a high flyer. I was in attendance at several TV tapings where he slipped off the Middle Rope doing relatively low risk moves.

So did Guerrero. So did Mysterio.

Are they not high fliers, either?

But yes, he is a safe worker. How many other wrestlers also have reputations for being safe workers in the history of the business?

I can think of one. Bret Hart. And he’s pretty well respected.

Although, being a safe worker, and again being a Main Event attraction, are two different things.

Oh of course. I mean, let’s ignore that, generally, if you’re safe, people will want to work with you, at any point. Why? Because people don’t want to get hurt. Period.

Big deal? What has ANY of that done to help him in WWE? Not a damn thing.

He could not quit WWE and expect to make a living doing any of that. He may be able to retire at this point, but all of that would have been from his tenure in WWE ... and has NOTHING to do with Fozzy, playing Hockey, or any of that stuff.

Yes, he has charisma ... but that is unrelated to doing any of his extra-curricular activities.

Oh, but it does. People look at that, and make the connection. It’s the same guy.

And you know what? People stop by, and they watch the show. Mainly to see what this guy is all about.

So yes, it counts.

Yes. Highly. But that is more so because of his rather blind Internet fanbase ... more so than him. My job is to bring his fanbase back down to Planet Earth and be given a hard dose of Reality Check.

Chris Jericho ... consistent performer? Sure.

Main Eventer and "one of the Greatest of all Time?"? Bullshit.

You were really better off sticking to B movies than you are debating.

I’d agree on one of the greatest of all time. But given what we see now, yes, it is fair to call him a main eventer.

 

[NSL]

Jericho is overrated?! Since when?! I'd love to know. He's my second favorite wrestler ever, and will go down as one of the greatest of all time when his career is all said and done.

He's a great face, but an even better heel, and can get heat no matter who he is facing, in any company, at any point in his career. I've followed him ever since he arrived in ECW. He tore the house down there, and got even better upon arriving in WCW. His feuds and matches there are must-sees, as is the epic promo he cut during the Malenko feud, where about 50 of his top moves are "Armbar!".

There's so many matches I want to see him in before his career is over. i can't say that about a lot of other wrestlers. they could retire, and life would go on. He'd retire, and I'd die a little inside.

 

[Skillz]

Chris Jericho is definitely on the overrated side of the spectrum. He's nowhere near as overrated as Flair, Angle or RVD, but he is just simply not the "best in the world" like so many of his blind fans think he is, not even close. The real "best in the world" right now is John Cena, and that's not even arguable.

There is no doubt that Jericho is a damn fine worker, and a very good promo cutter (not as good as people think). He plays his character well, and is one of the most consistent, reliable wrestlers in WWE. He is decent to good at just about everything, but great at nothing (with the possible exception of mic skills).

One of the main reasons for him being overrated is to do with believability. Chris Jericho is one of the least believable World/WWE Champions in WWE history. He just does not belong in the main event. He hasn't got that "big time" feel to his character, or his matches, and he's never been any kind of draw. He always seems out of place when being in a one-on-one main event on PPV, and I just don't buy him as a realistic main eventer. His continuous relegations back to the midcard suggests that the WWE thinks this too.

Then we get to his title reigns. Basically, they've all been shit. Nothing really memorable from all those midcard title reigns. They've all been pretty short, and there weren't many memorable matches either. And his world title reigns are some of the worst world title reigns in recent memory. So basically, he's a crap champion.

His in-ring ability is not as good as it's made out to be. He's an inconsistent seller of his opponent's moves and he doesn't always express pain the way he should. He is also very sloppy at times, and frequently doesn't situate himself in the right position for the next spot in a match. He has good psychology, but his storytelling is average. And as far as matches go, if you're being honest with yourselves, Jericho has only ever had one, ONE, truly classic match, against Shawn Michaels at WM19. That was his only truly great match, and nothing else he's ever done comes close to it, which is pretty disappointing for someone who's considered such a great wrestler.

 

[BooCocky]

Dependable is a fair synonym.

Fair enough.

I'm sorry, did you expect him to start on top? Of course he has some low- and mid-card titles to his credit. The fact is, when he wasn't the primary part of the show (nWo-era WCW), he still outperformed the rest of the performers.

How did he out perform main eventers when he was a mid carder? I don't see the connection.

And I bring up the WCW days because so many people on the forums are so fixated on the goings on of the WWF/E from 2000 through today that people forget Jericho was probably the most effective midcarder WCW had for a while. He was also the first of the young guys to jump ship from WCW to WWF - he blazed a trail that Guerrero and Benoit later followed.

He didn't really have a choice if he wanted to collect a big paycheck and not work paycheck to paycheck on an indy scene or some shit.

Finally, I'd like to remind you that the WCW TV Title was held and defended in quality feuds by the likes of William Regal, Paul Orndorff, and Arn Anderson.

That's good. Mid card titles do deserve some time.

I don't think this makes sense, Brian. I fully understand the fact that he wasn't Stone Cold or Hulk Hogan in his first taste of the Main Event, but in those times he put on CLASSIC WCW Title matches with The Rock, and was a major factor in Triple H's return being as huge as it was because of his history with him and Stephanie. He freed up Austin and Rock to feud with the nWo, and he came through when there were not many big time heels in the WWF at the time. Again, how does that make him "over rated?"

But like I said that was all good in small doses. His power and ability always wore off. He was never able to stay there and was never a real focal point of a show. Like you said he freed people up while Austin and the Rock could feud with the NWO. A bigger program.

He moves from division to division because he is flexible enough to do what is asked of him with no ego, and because his skill in the ring and on the mic make him believable in ALL situations. He may be one of the 5 most versatile entertainers in pro wrestling history when you consider heel and face turns and runs in different spots on the card.

Everyone wants to be a main eventer though, and my problem with Jericho is he wasn't able to consistently stay there. Honestly though, think he is a shit heel to be honest. I am just gonna go since his return, he flopped as a face, and his heel promo now consist of the same boring shit week after week... Not so versatile any more...

No, he's a mid-carder on normal days. He's a three-six month WWE Champion at BEST.

Yes he's a transitional champ. Wasn't his longest reign like 100 days or something? That's like three months. Nothing to be too proud of.

But shockingly enough, he's good enough to somehow be as relevant or more relevant than the WWE Title some nights. Without looking it up, I am willing to bet that most fans couldn't tell me who was wrestling in the main event on the nights Jericho fought Michaels and Mysterio.

Yeah but Mysterio and HBK are no slouches either. He's able to stay relevant because he is good not great.

Chris doesn't NEED titles to be a compelling entertainer, and that's part of what makes him a terrific performer, ergo, not over rated.

Yes he is, people call him the best but that isn't true, he has good mic skills, can perform well enough, but the only thing wrong with this whole thing is the WWE has given some shitty ass people DVD's so of course Jericho will receive one. Will I watch it? Absolutely not. I just don't feel like I should watch a mid carder to upper mid carders DVD...

 

[Y 2 Jake]

1. Chris Jericho is among the most consistent, dynamic performers in the last 25 years.

When people think back to the few non-nWo angles that were over / entertaining back in the 90's, often times it was the luchador matches and high-flying mid-carders who come to mind. But during much of that era, do you know who was one of the longest reigning Cruiserweight Champions? Chris Jericho was. He defeated men like Dean Milenko, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and Psicosis on a weekly basis, and was often depended on to open PPV's to fire up the crowds. He drew mega heat as an obnoxious, whiny heel, but somehow backed it up in the ring.

Jericho is better know for reading out a list of moves, Ralphus and his Goldberg ''feud'' than any match he had in WCW.

He also went on to win the WCW Television Title and consistently defend that.

Great belt, up there with the European title.

His debut in the WWF is often considered one of the best wrestler debuts in the history of wrestling, and the best part about it? It was all Jericho's idea. The Countdown clock, the promo, ALL OF IT. And Vince and co. believed in him so much, that they had him interrupt The Rock, of all people.

The Rock then made him look like a total fool, they couldn't find a match for him on SummerSlam then he feuded with Chyna.

Currently, Jericho is the most consistent part of the WWE product.

He should be, he's on twice a week.

He seemlessly moves from the World Title pictures (think 2008 scramble match), through drama-heavy feuds (vs Michaels, Mysterio), to basically carrying the tag division as well as a partner (Big Show) who was stuck in limbo.

A lot of wrestlers do that over roughly an 18 month period.

3. Jericho isn't a liability.

When he made his debut in WWE a lot of people had to point out to him that he was.

Chris Jericho has never been injured in the ring. Ever.

Had his teeth knocked out at No Mercy last year. Stings that does.

which is rare for a guy though of as a "high flyer."

For the purpose of this thread is he considered a high flyer? Because he certainly hasn't been considered one for years.

4. Jericho is a multi-faceted attraction.

Pro wrestler. Rock band front man. Hockey player. Jericho is so marketable because his reach is so broad.

Isn't he a flop world champion and an average rock star? If he's as marketable as stated then he wouldn't have had to return to WWE in 2007, surely.

He's a consummate performer.

And a bit of a goon given the couple of reports that have come out about him over the past 18 months or so.

Reactions, please...

Obviously the most overrated wrestler in the business today. I actually noticed that somebody added him as their wrestler of the decade in the nominations thread. Which would be perfectly fine if Jericho had great years every year. But the only great year he's had this past decade is 2008.

Jericho might've won the Unified Championship in 2001. But considering he defeated The Rock & Austin in one night, those matches and his victory are pretty forgettable. So are his matches against the two on the next two PPVs.

The fact is that Jericho didn't really do anything of note from 2000 to 2005. He had plenty of good matches, he even had one or two great ones. But you can't say he was a particular highlight. Good HBK feud and not much else. Mostly because he didn't eveolve at all as a performer. Same attire, matches and promos.

Even when he returned he was still doing the same thing he had before he left. Admittedly his heel turn was very well done and he put in some quality performences, for about three months. His new heel persona was a revelation. The only problem is, one that seems to effect Jericho a lot, is that once he's found a winning formula he can't think of anything to change or evolve. He's exactly the same this year as he was last. Good feud with Rey Mysterio aside, he's been pretty poor. He's not stealing PPVs, never really has, other than the odd occasion. And now his persona is just plain boring. Truth is, it always was, but it was such a noticable difference from what he was doing before that it appeared really fresh.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Chris Jericho is definitely on the overrated side of the spectrum. He's nowhere near as overrated as Flair, Angle or RVD, but he is just simply not the "best in the world" like so many of his blind fans think he is, not even close. The real "best in the world" right now is John Cena, and that's not even arguable.

Okay, we'll start here.

1. Anyone who calls Jericho "the greatest ever" is just plain wrong. And not objective. I won't call Jericho the greatest ever, but I will damn sure tell you he's my all time favorite, and that he has been since 1995-96. But those "blind fans" don't make up the majority, Green Ranger, and their opinions are hardly the overwhelming peice to Jericho's "rating." Overall, Jericho is not over rated. I won't say he's under rated either. He's a guy I look at and say he is "rated correctly" when you consider the overall opinion of him.

2. John Cena's place is certainly debatable. That's why we are all here. I am not saying I agree or disagree with you on him, all I am saying is to beware dismissing Cena's place in the world as "simple fact."

There is no doubt that Jericho is a damn fine worker, and a very good promo cutter (not as good as people think). He plays his character well, and is one of the most consistent, reliable wrestlers in WWE. He is decent to good at just about everything, but great at nothing (with the possible exception of mic skills).

Except for your assertion that he's not as good on the mic as people think, this entire statement is spot on, and I honestly this that this paragraph is a terrific summation of how most of the world of wrestling fans views Jericho. In which case, you and I are actually 100% in agreement, and that he is rated correctly - not over rated as some claim.

One of the main reasons for him being overrated is to do with believability. Chris Jericho is one of the least believable World/WWE Champions in WWE history. He just does not belong in the main event. He hasn't got that "big time" feel to his character, or his matches, and he's never been any kind of draw. He always seems out of place when being in a one-on-one main event on PPV, and I just don't buy him as a realistic main eventer. His continuous relegations back to the midcard suggests that the WWE thinks this too.

This is where you're completely off.

Jericho only has one victory of a World Title as a babyface - and it's been erased. It was at State College, PA in 1999 when he defeated Triple H on Monday Night Raw, only to be stripped of the title and his win stricken after HHH and Shane bullied Earl Hebner. What was not believable about that? Jericho insults HHH and his wife to the point of infuriation, then says "you want to get your hands on me, put that title on the line!" HHH is still so emotional and incensed that he agrees, and after the APA drags HHH's cronies away from the ring, the underdog Jericho hits a sudden Lionsault for the pinfall? Perfectly plausible angle.

As a "tweener," a frustrated Jericho was sick of being referred to as the guy who'd never won "The Big One." In a tremendous upset, Jericho pinned The Rock for the WCW Title after a classic back and forth match.

Then, Jericho was the underdog going into Vengeance. A full heel now, he defeated The Rock AGAIN, and then shortly thereafter beat Steve Austin thanks to interference from Booker T. Again, perfectly plausible. He didn't beat both men "clean," but he did his heel work perfectly and became the first ever UDC.

Sure, Jericho's Undisputed Title run had a tough go, but that's because it occured immediately after the Invasion Angle, and at the start of the nWo in WWE angle. Jericho defended the title against The Rock at Royal Rumble, which of course was overshadowed by the Rumble match itself, and the return of Triple H. At No Way Out, the Jericho vs Austin match was second fiddle to the McMahon / Flair/ nWo angle and the Triple H / Stephanie drama. Again, it wasn't Jericho's fault as champion - the other angles were VERY gripping.

And at Wrestlemania, Jericho and Steph got intense heat, but that event is remembered for Hogan vs Rock, and nobody would have changed that.

As World Champ following the scramble, it made perfect sense. VERY believable for a wild card entrant, an opportunist, to take advantage of a beneficifal situation and win the belt.

Then we get to his title reigns. Basically, they've all been shit. Nothing really memorable from all those midcard title reigns. They've all been pretty short, and there weren't many memorable matches either. And his world title reigns are some of the worst world title reigns in recent memory. So basically, he's a crap champion.

Wow, not even close. His feuds with Chris Benoit were tremendous. His WCW feuds with Milenko, Juvi, and Ultimo Dragon were solid. The Euro-continental Title three-way with Benoit and Angle was terrific. His matches with Chyna, subsequent partnership, and then the Eddie Guerrero feud and Chyna turn were well executed. Intercontinental title fued with Christian involving Trish Stratus was memorable. Losing the IC title to a fan-voted Shelton Benjamin at Cyber Sunday was well done. Plus, my points above. He wasn't the greatest champion of all time, but he was a solid champion and a consistent performer. Calling him a "crap champion" is ridiculous.

His in-ring ability is not as good as it's made out to be. He's an inconsistent seller of his opponent's moves and he doesn't always express pain the way he should. He is also very sloppy at times, and frequently doesn't situate himself in the right position for the next spot in a match. He has good psychology, but his storytelling is average. And as far as matches go, if you're being honest with yourselves, Jericho has only ever had one, ONE, truly classic match, against Shawn Michaels at WM19. That was his only truly great match, and nothing else he's ever done comes close to it, which is pretty disappointing for someone who's considered such a great wrestler.

Well thank GOD that you, clearly an expert, are here to save the day! Teach us, Green Ranger!

Come on man, his matches with Michaels, Benoit, Angle - all fantastic matches. His WCW matches often stole entire shows. Last Man Standing and Hell in a Cell with Triple H was terrific. The guy is as consistent as they get, AND he's also safe in the ring.

His matches with Mysterio in the early part of the year? Brilliant.

His ability to put over Ricky Steamboat at Wrestlemania last year? WOW!

How he's revitalized Big Show's career? Amazing.

You're selling him short, and you know it.

 

[BooCocky]

I can't quote and all but I believe you're selling his opponents short too... Benoit, Michaels, Mysterio and HHH are all good competitors and Steamboat did a good job and held his own in the ring...I've never seen Jericho take someone who is below him and elevate him. That's something most great superstars can do... I have no problem with Jericho as a mid carder but I believe he is overrated amongst his fans. But like I said he'll get the DVD because some shaky stars have DVD's.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

And exactly what makes us blind to him? Where does this blindness come from? Because we like him? The fact is, Sidious, we're allowed to like whoever we damn well please. Who are you to say that it's not right for us to like the guy?

And you are free to like whomever you "damn well please". Nowhere did I attack anyone for being a fan of Chris Jericho. All I am arguing in the context of is that his fans ... especially his Internet fans (which is pretty much his entire fanbase) vastly ... VASTLY over-rates him.

He is an above average wrestler.

He has done a tremendous job of avoiding injuring others as well as injuring himself.

He is, however, simply an Average Heel, judging by Greatest of All Time standards.

He is a consistent performer.

He is not a draw as a Main Eventer, though.

You know.... I'm going to be the first to say it.

I think the guy kind of acts like a dick. He's had multiple incidents with fans. He's thrown around homophobic slurs. He just doesn't seem like that nice a guy, honestly. Charming, perhaps, but not a particularly good guy. I don't like him personally.

Which is why I find him labeling himself a "Christian" extremely hypocritical. Not that I am religious or anything because I'm not ... but there is no way Jericho is some Bible-thumping Christian. Casual believer, at best.

Having said that, I appreciate his work. Because the guy is the best worker, right now, in the WWE. Right now, that and two bucks will get you chewing gum, but the guy still just works good matches.

He works respectable matches, but there is still NOTHING special about those matches. None of them stand out, at all.

You know.... I agree.

Chris Jericho, for his career, has been a midcarder, up until this recent run, ever since he came back to the WWE from his break.

Thank you.

But look at the names that were on the main event marquee during his work.

Austin.
Rock.
Triple H.
Mankind.
Undertaker.
Michaels.
Angle.
Hogan.
Flair.

So, what you seem to be saying is that "compared to true Main Eventers of that caliber, Chris Jericho somehow could not rise to their level. And he is not on their level. The only POSSIBLE one I would question as being on or near Jericho's actual level would be Mankind. Mick was one Hell of an interesting character, like Jericho can be ... but Mick dazzled the crowd as a spot monkey, essentially. Flair's allegation towards him is actually truthful.

But that's nothing against Mick, though. He made a ton of money being just that.

You mean to tell me there's any shame to being in the mid card when the WWE is touting these names. My God, every one of those wrestlers will be in the Hall of Fame the first chance they can get. So yeah, while the guy has a history of being a mid card, consider all the names that were working main events, at this point, and through Jericho's career.

Now, when these names do are gone, who do they always turn to? For that matter, who do they turn to now?

Jericho.

The sad fact, Jericho's prime came at a time where it was nearly impossible to reach the main event. Counting off against that guy for having to work in a pool with these names is just flat out wrong. Period.

I don't want to hear that, Tenta. Because it's excuses. Jericho had matches with the likes of The Rock and Steve Austin. So he in fact WAS in the Main Event and wrestled as a Main Eventer. He was the first ever Undisputed Champion. But he didn't stay in the Main Event, and that is because he simply does not have what it takes to be a Main Eventer. Outside of his vocal, but small in comparison, Internet Fanbase .... Jericho simply is not a draw.

Jericho is simply part of the overall show. But he is not someone would pay to see as a Headliner, other than his Jericho Internet marks, of course ... who thinks he is God.

I would disagree. If you didn't think his ladder match with Shawn wasn't great, you're out of your mind. If you didn't think he was spectacular in his feud with Austin in 2001, you're fucking nuts. If you believe that even in his work with Benoit and Angle in 2000 wasn't great, I don't understand how you can call yourself a fan. The fact is, I fell as though you're judging this based off the history of one match, which we will get to in a bit.

Well, call me nuts then because his Ladder Match with Shawn was very good ... however I wouldn't necessarily classify it as great, judging from Ladder Matches from the past (of course) ...

His feud with Austin was absolutely forgettable from 2001.

His work with Benoit and Angle, however was very good.

And no, I am not basing these opinions simply off of one match.

In the world of the WWE, he's the best they got. And that's not even dealing with his prime. Then again, we're going to have understand what your context of worker is.

He most absolutely is NOT the best they have. John Cena is bar none, their best worker. He is the most reliable, most dedicated worker on the entire roster ... who possesses the best attitude. And most importantly, he is actually a draw. There are very few actual draws in the company anymore, in which ratings and PPV buyrates are actually affected when any given superstar leaves or returns to the show. John Cena is one of those talents. Chris Jericho never has been and never will be.

And here we go.... The basis of Lord Sidious' reasoning for believing what he does.... Wrestlemania 18.

Now, there's plenty of factors why this didn't work. However, Sid, I want you to answer some questions:

Not my entire basis. However, this is basically the cherry to top off the sundae.

1. You were there. Did you not watch history being made only an hour earlier, with possibly the greatest dream match in Wrestlemania History.... Rock and Hogan.

Sure, I did. And that was a pure spectacle. I have never seen anything like that in my life.

But Chris Jericho is actually from Canada. And you know how Canadians are absolute pure marks for their country and its citizens. Hell, even Jericho gets cheered today in Canada, and he actually has to go out of his way to trash the fans in order to actually get Heel Heat up there. Otherwise, they cheer him on just as if he was the top face in the company. Same with Edge.

Point is that Triple H and Jericho knew that they had a tough act to follow. But Jericho was in his home territory to motivate people to respond to him in some manner. Plus, he had Stephanie McMahon with him. And he was against a regular Main Eventer at that point, who has Main Evented Wrestlemania previously.

If Jericho was as good as his Internet marks claim, why could he not pull this one off?

I'll answer that. Because Chris Jericho, plain and simply, IS NOT in the same league as those Main Eventers you previously mentioned.

The ONLY reason he gets any kind of reaction today is because the Faces and Heels in the WWE today are the absolute pits compared to year's past. So that is who the people have to settle for.

Let's get back to your comments:

Now, you were there.... That was the semi-main event, no? There were two more matches.

Yep.

Was the crowd not dead for a good portion of time after it?

They were. That drained a good amount of life from the crowd. However, the crowd had PLENTY of time to rest up after that match. I believe there were actually two more matches until the Main Event.

This was The Main Event of Wrestlemania. They had two matches to rest up for the Main Event. What am I not seeing here?

Are you admitting to me that Chris Jericho is not in the same league as The Rock and Hulk Hogan?

Now, here's the big question, Sidious... Was it because of Jericho's performance, or because the fans had just seen excellence, and there was no way to duplicate that.

Again, you are admitting to me then that Chris Jericho is not in Hulk Hogan's league or The Rock's league, right?

They had two whole matches to rest up from The Rock/Hogan match.

Now, for the sake of argument .... let's say that this was the reason that the crowd was dead, despite having several matches to rest from the Hogan/Rock match .... why hasn't WWE placed Chris Jericho in the Main Event of any other Wrestlemania? It's because they know what I've said ... he simply does not draw and he fails to live up to Main Event expectations. That is a consistent problem with him.

Second question.... Did the WWE decide to make this feud about Jericho and Triple H? Or was Jericho a pawn in the feud of Steph VS. Trips? We know how much the McMahons love the spotlight. Don't you think it was possible that they overbooked this match to Hell, to the point there was no way to get the fans truly emotionally invested?

Given the fact that this match took place in Canada, and Jericho is Canadian, none of that would have mattered. Besides, isn't Jericho so incredibly popular with everyone, or is this simply all in the imagination of his Internet fanbase ... who thinks they are more than they really are?

The match itself was unspectacular. And the crowd simply could not get into it.

Now, if you would have placed Steve Austin in there against Triple H, are you honestly telling me that the crowd would have been silent? No. It was Chris Jericho that was the problem. He is simply not in the league of all the other Main Eventers of the past, even to this day.

Third Question... How many legitimate matches had Triple H worked before this PPV? He was in a Rumble, and that was pretty much it. He had just returned from Quad Surgery, and to say his timing was off is an understatement.

Oh, here we go. Let's blame someone who was the #1 Heel in the company and a consistent performer for this.

Anyway, let's see what PPV's Triple H wrestled on prior to Wrestlemania:


No Way Out
Triple H vs Kurt Angle

Royal Rumble
Triple H entered at #22 and eliminated Kurt Angle to win


And he wrestled on TV in between. So, come on.

Now, if you want to make the allegation, then please get out the tape and start pointing out the spots where you feel Triple H's timing was off. Point out the times in the match.

So with all of these theories surround this issue.... Again, how much can you blame Chris Jericho?

Because your theories don't hold water.

Ok.... I'll say it....

Triple H is a horrendously drawing champion. None of what he does is entertaining as champion, aside from his feud with the Rock.

Believe me ... I'm not necessarily one of Triple H's biggest fans ... as far as his character goes ... because much like the Chris Jericho persona of today, I also think Triple H was an extremely generic Heel. Same repetitive lazy ass promos cut all the time.

But he is a better all-around performer in the ring than Jericho. He has what it takes to bring a crowd to its feet during the matches, where Jericho just doesn't seem to have that gift.

His run from 2003-2005 is some of the worst business the WWE has ever done. Instead of elevating names like Kane, RVD, and yes, Jericho, all mad over, Triple H clutched the title, not allowing any spotlight to hit others. There was resentment. The IWC knows about it. And no one was entertained.

And who exactly did Chris Jericho elevate during his Heavyweight Title reigns? Not a single soul.

I thought we were talking about Chris Jericho, not Triple H?

Like I said, I'm not really a Triple H fan, either.

Now then, Jericho has only had two reigns. Two. One was almost aborted, because Cena was coming back, and the other, he wasn't even the main focal point. You can't chalk up his "failures" to his own performance... I'd point to the horrendous booking that surrounded him at this time.

Why do you think Chris Jericho is being kept away from the Heavyweight title today? It's because they simply know he doesn't draw and they don't trust him as a Heavyweight Champion.

What was so horrendous about his booking? I can agree with you on the Cena aspect, and I think Cena should have chased the belt a little while longer. But at the same time, they obviously don't trust Jericho to hold the belt, and have more faith in Cena as long-term champion, because Cena is a proven draw.

What was so wrong with the way Jericho was booked around Mania 18? He was supposedly in a huge storyline with Triple H and Stephanie McMahon. If you can't get some sort of a rub from working with both of them, then there's a problem.

Well, actually, that is what I was about to say. Do you not understand that this was a man who, in his mind, was betrayed by the fans? And when someone's betrayed, they simply can't be the same wrestler.

Sure. And I already know what pretty much every argument is going to be, before anyone utters it, because I've been down this road before.

I get Jericho's current character. I really do. I'm simply not impressed with it. It's incredibly stale, generic, and boring. And none of that is in a good way. The goal may be for him to be boring, but the bottom line is ... it's still boring, and that is never good.

Put it this way, if the goal is to make someone as exciting as watching paint dry, it is still "as exciting as watching paint dry". And that isn't a good thing.

Do you honestly mean to tell me that Jericho's heel persona can hold a candle to any of the All-time Great Heels I rattled off earlier?

Look at Sting. Betrayed character. Can't be the same ever again. Randy Orton; Betrayed, can't ever let it go.

This feeling of betrayal for wrestlers, usually leads to a character that won't give the fans what they want. And what do the fans want; they want light-hearted Chris Jericho. They want jokes. They want laughs. They want snide remarks with a smirk.

So Chris Jericho just won't give it. Simple as that.

And it is still, at the end of the day, a very boring, bland, and generic character.

I can dress anyone .... ANYONE in the Indys to dress up in a suit, and walk out and do what Chris Jericho does each and every week on Raw and Smackdown on the mic.

"Blah, blah, blah Parasites."

"Blah, blah, blah Hypocrites."

"Blah, blah, best in the world at what I do."

"Blah blah named by Stephanie McMahon as Wrestler of the year 2009."


It is the same damn promo every single week.

And what makes it even worse is his monotonous tone of voice, which absolutely puts people to sleep. Usually very monotone and very rarely gets excited.

The bottom line is that "Acting Boring" is still ... "Boring". It's a terrible character, and very vastly Over-rated Heel-- especially when you compare him to the All Time Great Heels of the Past.

I fail to see the justification for calling him overrated. Though I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, because you are an excellent poster, and I will believe you have a reason below.

Well, I appreciate that. And you are a fantastic poster, as well. We just seem to have a disagreement on this topic.

And what’s wrong with them? He typically gets the most boos out of anyone on the card. That’s why he’s on both programs; to allow for wrestlers to get the heat from both shows, and to allow the rub to be felt.

Actually, Jericho is on both shows for the exact same reason as The Big Show is on both shows-- to inflate the size of the rosters for each show ... to give an extra Upper Midcarder to each show. Both shows are a little short on Upper Midcarders, and this has been WWE's way to work an extra one on each show.

That was the purpose for why Edge and Jericho were originally grouped together, as a way to get Edge on both shows .... and is the exact same reason Big Show substituted for Edge, and is filling in his shows.

And I would not be surprised if WWE keeps this little trend up with Upper Midcarders holding the Tag Team Titles.

So believe me, it has nothing to do with Jericho alone giving anyone a rub ... and rather simply because he is a solidified Upper Midcarder, and WWE needs filler in this category on both shows.

Thus, we agree here. And I don’t think Jericho sacrifices that for the sake of his character.

In fact, if anything, he’s sacrificed his ring skills to benefit his character. Now, he works a much slower match, one in which he’s more grounded, and relies on more rest holds. It’s not that he doesn’t have it anymore, he’s aware that’s what his character wants. He doesn’t want the fans to get the satisfaction of watching him flip backwards to do cool moves. Rather, he goes about his business, almost taunting that he isn’t the same wrestler.

And again, that is understood. But even his matches before this particular persona were never "really special". Nothing stood out with them either.

Jericho is not really a high-flyer, and if his IWC mark fans think of him as this, then shame on them.

One of his signature moves is a Lionsault. I'm willing to bet that any number of posters on here could do the same thing if they run up on the second rope and propel themselves backwards.

But to classify Jericho as a high-flyer as someone like a ... Jeff Hardy (in Jericho's old character) is flat-out dishonest.

Still, Jericho doesn’t have a Rock now. He doesn’t have an Austin to work with. You know what he has? A lameduck HBK, a past his prime Triple H, and a scripted John Cena. Pardon me if you’re not getting the same Chris Jericho.

You know, when are you going to start blaming Chris Jericho himself, instead of being a Jericho-apologist? It's always someone else's fault ... never Chris Jericho's fault.

Now, this I’ll dispute, though it has little to do with the discussion. It’s clear that Vince had more of a role than you give him credit for. And why? Because Russo tried to take that exact same logic, and that very same style to WCW, where he was the head booker, and answered to no one.

And he failed. He epically failed.

No, that isn't clear. But this is going to derail the thread if we get into this argument. If Vince McMahon was this Creative Genius you made him out to be, look at WWE in the Attitude Era, and look at WWE today. I see quite a difference in Creative direction.

As far as Russo in WCW, that was all the Time Warner Merger that had to do with the demise of WCW. Even Eric Bischoff, who doesn't even like Vince Russo, didn't blame Russo for WCW dying. He said that Upper Management at Time Warner simply did not want WCW on TNT any longer. So if they aren't going to support you, then you are pretty much screwed.

And why not? He’s currently one of few wrestlers to go without a script now. From what I hear, many of the ideas for Y2J’s character in WCW had to come from him, because no one else gave him the time of day. And his Y2J character is very similar to that same cocky heel in WCW.

That is absolutely, 100% false. Jericho's promos today are scripted word for word. And I know that because when the one script got leaked to the Internet ... it was the show with Jericho and Jimmy Snuka, where Jericho knocked Snuka out with a coconut ... it had his entire promo on there, and he uttered it word for word, what was on that script.

So, sorry to disappoint all the Jericholics, but Chris Jericho's material is fully scripted, just like everyone else.

So why am I not to believe some of it was his design?

Because Jericho was in absolutely NO position to do any such thing when he first arrived. Can you imagine if he would have went up to the Creative team on his first signing and started telling them what he wants done to prepare for his debut? Jericho was a nobody at that point. He would have been in the doghouse faster than you could blink had he tried something like that.

Now, today ... if he were leaving and returning, I could believe it, as he at least has established himself as a solid Upper Midcarder. But not back then. No way.

Actually, Sidious, while technically, Bischoff was not a member of creative, he did, in fact, pitch many ideas to Vince, and Vince did in fact take them. It was Eric’s idea for him to work with Steve, regarding their past in WCW. And I believe this actually did come from Eric.

Don't give me this bull, Tenta. Bischoff was not part of the Creative team, and nor did he mention at any time that he routinely consulted with the Creative Team. He re-iterated many times that he was STRICTLY TALENT ... nothing more.

But if you have proof otherwise, stating that Jericho came up with the concept, I would absolutely love to hear it.

So did Guerrero. So did Mysterio.

Are they not high fliers, either?

Again, don't insult people's intelligence by calling Jericho a high-flyer. Just because he can do a Moonsault off the second rope does not make him a high-flyer.

I can think of one. Bret Hart. And he’s pretty well respected.

Sure he is. Nobody is disputing that.

Oh of course. I mean, let’s ignore that, generally, if you’re safe, people will want to work with you, at any point. Why? Because people don’t want to get hurt. Period.

Ummmm, yeah. Okay. I agree. Nobody was really disputing this.

I’d agree on one of the greatest of all time. But given what we see now, yes, it is fair to call him a main eventer.

Absolutely not. When he starts Main Eventing Wrestlemanias regularly, please let me know.

Jericho is a Part Time Main Eventer, when needed (that will never hold the title for any significant amount of time ... because he doesn't draw) ....

and he is a regular, solid Upper Midcarder ... who will NEVER be considered one of the Greatest of All Time ... despite the delusions of his Internet fanbase.

 

[Toroc102]

Have to disagree with Sidious on some parts of his arguments, all though I'll agree that Jerico is overrated on the whole.

First want to get to his current character which I actually do agree with Sid on. It is WAY overrated, and to me it doesn't seem natural to Jericho at all, like he's surpressing his true character. Think I mentioned it in an SD thread, but CM Punk pulls off a similar character so much better, it seems so much more natural coming off of him. Its weird to me that he has been doing essentially the same promos for months now, but it still seems like he's practicing how to get it just right. Also him using the same three or so big word insults, to me, kind've makes him look dumb, like he's trying to hard. If he just called the crowds morons and idiots I think he'd be better off then calling them parisites and sycophants, like how many people in the crowd even know what a sycophant is?

On the other hand I will disagree that his first Title reign was his fault alone. He was booked as a weak champion the entire time, and not just as your typical heel. The most successful champions are always badasses, cowardly sure, but still cool badasses, whether their heel or face. Jericho on the other hand was booked against a returning Triple H, as a whiny weak heel, who took a backseat to Stephanie leading up to Wrestlemania. He was a third wheel in his own Main-Event. To me that whole reign was a classic example of Vince letting Jericho's reign stall out before it even started.

When he won the title on Raw however, the fans were completely behind him, at that time Triple H was the heel, and Jericho was a badass, cocky, loudmouthed face, unfortunately that was stalled even quicker than his actual Undisputed reign, hehe erased from the record books(I mean really? Looking back on it now, it seems to me that the whole angle reeked of politics). If they had let Jericho run with the title at least for a while, it would have done so much more good for his career than, letting his first real reign(I don't count his WCW Title win) be as a weak, whiny, cowardly, heel that was kissing the butt of the woman he used to call a brutal bottom feeding, etc etc etc ho. He was set up to fail in his first run as a champion, it's like Vince had this preconceived notion that Jericho couldn't be a Main-Eventer, and besides that, he already knew who his champ of the future was going to be(HHH, duh).

So is Jericho overrated? Yes in the sense that he isn't the Best their is, was and ever will be(I actually prefer Austin for that role), but at his natural best I believe he is one of the alltime greats. He may not headline Wrestlemania's, but he has feuded with the best in the business for a long time now, had his fair share of victories, and although his Title record is spotty at best, so are Roddy Pipers, Ted Dibiase's, Jake the Snake's and many others, but I'd still consider them one of the greats as well.

 

[Tenta]

And you are free to like whomever you "damn well please". Nowhere did I attack anyone for being a fan of Chris Jericho. All I am arguing in the context of is that his fans ... especially his Internet fans (which is pretty much his entire fanbase) vastly ... VASTLY over-rates him.

He is an above average wrestler.

He has done a tremendous job of avoiding injuring others as well as injuring himself.

He is, however, simply an Average Heel, judging by Greatest of All Time standards.

He is a consistent performer.

He is not a draw as a Main Eventer, though.

I'm going to start this off by stating that, for the most part, at least what you're agrguing, we agree. Jericho is not the greatest of all time, nor will he ever be. He may not even be the best performer right now, who knows. So by this context, yes, you're right.

But I doubt Jericho fans really believe him to be the best ever. I think you highly misconstrue the Jericho fans, as I don't think any of them will tell you he's the greatest ever. If they do, they need to get more educated about men such as Race, Flair, even Hulk Hogan as a heel. No one's arguing that he's one of the greatest of all time. What I intend to argue is that, at this point, he is the best pure wrestler the WWE has at this point. Even if that is at above average, that may be the case. It's not like the WWE is exactly filled with tremendous workers. Also, I think somewhere along these lines, we're going to dispute whether this man deserves a DVD. Isn't this more or less how this debate started, Sidious?

Which is why I find him labeling himself a "Christian" extremely hypocritical. Not that I am religious or anything because I'm not ... but there is no way Jericho is some Bible-thumping Christian. Casual believer, at best.

Let's ignore this par tof the argument here, as it seems that:

A. We agree.
B. It's irrelevant. Plenty of great workers have been assholes. Just look at Buddy Rogers as an example.

He works respectable matches, but there is still NOTHING special about those matches. None of them stand out, at all.

It depends on what Jericho matches we're talking here. Are we including his WCW stint. Because I will totally throw in his matches with Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio Jr., and even possibly The Juvi Juice. Now, if we're also counting even before that, I'd advise you to watch his Super J Cup match with Wild Pegasus (A man we better know as Chris Benoit.)If you don't believe that match is possibly the best of either man's career, I seriosuly wonder about you.

Now, if we're talking about his stints in the main event, I tend to disagree, again. I loved his match in 2001 with Benoit and Austin. I also like his Fully Loaded match in 2000 with Trips. Now, I'm not sure if you count an Elimination Chamber match, but even you must admit that was terrific, both of them he was in. Oh, and though we may disagree, Michaels/Jericho was easily the best ladder match in the last five years. Aside from his matches at the GAB and Unforgiven with Shawn

Thank you.

I call em like I see em.

So, what you seem to be saying is that "compared to true Main Eventers of that caliber, Chris Jericho somehow could not rise to their level. And he is not on their level. The only POSSIBLE one I would question as being on or near Jericho's actual level would be Mankind. Mick was one Hell of an interesting character, like Jericho can be ... but Mick dazzled the crowd as a spot monkey, essentially. Flair's allegation towards him is actually truthful.

Hmmm.... Yes and no. I suppose you could say that. I'd argue that there will never be another main event this loaded ever again in the history of the WWE, or for that matter, any promotion. Did you have the time to consider those names, Sidious. Those are all hall of famers. Each andd everyone of them. And even you admit you find Jericho better than Foley. Granted, that's because you don't particularly enjoy Foley, but we can save that debate for another time.

I don't want to hear that, Tenta. Because it's excuses. Jericho had matches with the likes of The Rock and Steve Austin. So he in fact WAS in the Main Event and wrestled as a Main Eventer. He was the first ever Undisputed Champion. But he didn't stay in the Main Event, and that is because he simply does not have what it takes to be a Main Eventer. Outside of his vocal, but small in comparison, Internet Fanbase .... Jericho simply is not a draw.

Did you ever think that Jericho just is capable of giving anyone the rub?

Look at Shelton Benjamin, Sidious. Jericho went down to the mid card to feud with him. And he gave Shelton the best six months of his career, bar none. He actually made me enjoy Shelton. That, my friend, is saying something. It's very simple... When Vince wants someone to get over, he takes a main event name who can work good matches, cut good promos, and has them work constantly with that person, in the hopes they get over. That's what, more or less, he did with Bret Hart for so long, Sidious. And while I would dare never say Bret and Chris are equals, the parallels are indeed there.

Well, call me nuts then because his Ladder Match with Shawn was very good ... however I wouldn't necessarily classify it as great, judging from Ladder Matches from the past (of course) ...

His feud with Austin was absolutely forgettable from 2001.

His work with Benoit and Angle, however was very good.

And no, I am not basing these opinions simply off of one match.

I wouldn't call it forgettable, per se. I'd say the transition to working with The Rock was a bit jagged, but again, people do remember Benoit and Jericho VS. The Two Man Power Trip. They remember Jericho and Benoit taking the belts from them. They remember TLC III, which was fantastic. They remember when Stone Cold stacked the decks against both men. And while it came at a time when Rock and Trips were gone, it was a viable draw throughout 2001. And even then, he became a major cog in the Invasion storyline, which tended to make everything in that 2001 era seem so bad.

He most absolutely is NOT the best they have. John Cena is bar none, their best worker. He is the most reliable, most dedicated worker on the entire roster ... who possesses the best attitude. And most importantly, he is actually a draw. There are very few actual draws in the company anymore, in which ratings and PPV buyrates are actually affected when any given superstar leaves or returns to the show. John Cena is one of those talents. Chris Jericho never has been and never will be.

I think we can agree that Cena is a greater draw than Jericho. Either than that, give me one name not named Undertaker that provides that typical draw of Jericho.

Sure, I did. And that was a pure spectacle. I have never seen anything like that in my life.

But Chris Jericho is actually from Canada. And you know how Canadians are absolute pure marks for their country and its citizens. Hell, even Jericho gets cheered today in Canada, and he actually has to go out of his way to trash the fans in order to actually get Heel Heat up there. Otherwise, they cheer him on just as if he was the top face in the company. Same with Edge.

Aha! Thought you were going to point out this Canada crowd. And the fact is, Toronto is an absolutely ambivalent crowd. It's not that same smark town that you get in Montreal, or even in Calgary. It just isn't. If it were, Hogan and Warrior would possibly been boo'ed out of the arena. So using the Canada argument isn't going to cut it for me. It's pretty much America, anyway.

Point is that Triple H and Jericho knew that they had a tough act to follow. But Jericho was in his home territory to motivate people to respond to him in some manner. Plus, he had Stephanie McMahon with him. And he was against a regular Main Eventer at that point, who has Main Evented Wrestlemania previously.

I can't believe you'd use the italics as a part of your argument. Stephanie McMahon only weakened Jericho's position in that feud. It made it more relevant that it was Trips V.S. Steph. Jericho was reduced to an afterthought. And we all know it's because the McMahons simply love to be on camera.

If Jericho was as good as his Internet marks claim, why could he not pull this one off?

Because no wrestler could ever top that. Period.

The ONLY reason he gets any kind of reaction today is because the Faces and Heels in the WWE today are the absolute pits compared to year's past. So that is who the people have to settle for.

Their may be validity to that statement. However, again, it doesn't matter the talent he's working with... He's there, and that's all that matters.

They were. That drained a good amount of life from the crowd. However, the crowd had PLENTY of time to rest up after that match. I believe there were actually two more matches until the Main Event.

Ank. Sorry, but that is incorrect, sir. Rather, the next match was The Divas match involving Trish Stratus (Which, by the way, should have had the home pop you were referring to earlier. Still, she didn't either.) Then they went right away to the WWE Championship match.

Are you admitting to me that Chris Jericho is not in the same league as The Rock and Hulk Hogan?



Again, you are admitting to me then that Chris Jericho is not in Hulk Hogan's league or The Rock's league, right?

Of course I am. But again, consider those two. You want to penalize Jericho for not living up to those standards?

That's absurd.

They had two whole matches to rest up from The Rock/Hogan match.

Now, for the sake of argument .... let's say that this was the reason that the crowd was dead, despite having several matches to rest from the Hogan/Rock match .... why hasn't WWE placed Chris Jericho in the Main Event of any other Wrestlemania? It's because they know what I've said ... he simply does not draw and he fails to live up to Main Event expectations. That is a consistent problem with him.

Well, in all fairness, consider the common denominator in all of these Wrestlemania Matches you speak of:

Triple H. Again, I'm not going to sit here and tell you Trips holds talent down. But the evidence is out there. Trips has been in every single Wrestlemania main event from XIX to 23. And even then, he was out due to injury. And you can't book Triple H VS. Jericho for each of these Wrestlemanias. Why? Because that's just horrible booking.

Then again, having one guy at the main event at Wrestlemania that much is poor booking. But that's another topic.

Given the fact that this match took place in Canada, and Jericho is Canadian, none of that would have mattered. Besides, isn't Jericho so incredibly popular with everyone, or is this simply all in the imagination of his Internet fanbase ... who thinks they are more than they really are?

Again, that Canadian thing holds little water now.

Now, if you would have placed Steve Austin in there against Triple H, are you honestly telling me that the crowd would have been silent? No. It was Chris Jericho that was the problem. He is simply not in the league of all the other Main Eventers of the past, even to this day.

Actually, there has been little reaction for Austin/Trips. Their Survivor Series match that last year flopped. So did the Three Stages of Hell, though it was an actual good match.

Oh, here we go. Let's blame someone who was the #1 Heel in the company and a consistent performer for this.

Anyway, let's see what PPV's Triple H wrestled on prior to Wrestlemania:


No Way Out
Triple H vs Kurt Angle

Royal Rumble
Triple H entered at #22 and eliminated Kurt Angle to win


And he wrestled on TV in between. So, come on.

Now, if you want to make the allegation, then please get out the tape and start pointing out the spots where you feel Triple H's timing was off. Point out the times in the match.

You mean to tell me those matches were anywhere near what they could have been should Triple H have been healthy? That was possibly the worst Angle/Trips match out there. And if we're going any further, there's a time at that year's Backlash in which Trips clearly runs into Hulk Hogan while both are running the ropes. Aside from that being a horrendous match, as well.

elieve me ... I'm not necessarily one of Triple H's biggest fans ... as far as his character goes ... because much like the Chris Jericho persona of today, I also think Triple H was an extremely generic Heel. Same repetitive lazy ass promos cut all the time.

But he is a better all-around performer in the ring than Jericho. He has what it takes to bring a crowd to its feet during the matches, where Jericho just doesn't seem to have that gift.

Now, that's very disputable. Will you tey to argue that WWE prgramming from 2003-2005, during Triple H's dominant reigns, wasn't some of the worst television known to man?

And who exactly did Chris Jericho elevate during his Heavyweight Title reigns? Not a single soul.

I'm sorry, but how do you elevate Austin, Rock, and HBK? Please, elaborate.

Why do you think Chris Jericho is being kept away from the Heavyweight title today? It's because they simply know he doesn't draw and they don't trust him as a Heavyweight Champion.

What was so horrendous about his booking? I can agree with you on the Cena aspect, and I think Cena should have chased the belt a little while longer. But at the same time, they obviously don't trust Jericho to hold the belt, and have more faith in Cena as long-term champion, because Cena is a proven draw.

Or, they were looking for a desperate attempt to hot shot the ratings. That could be the case, too.

What was so wrong with the way Jericho was booked around Mania 18? He was supposedly in a huge storyline with Triple H and Stephanie McMahon. If you can't get some sort of a rub from working with both of them, then there's a problem.

A storyline that

was

McMahon and Triple H. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Sure. And I already know what pretty much every argument is going to be, before anyone utters it, because I've been down this road before.

I get Jericho's current character. I really do. I'm simply not impressed with it. It's incredibly stale, generic, and boring. And none of that is in a good way. The goal may be for him to be boring, but the bottom line is ... it's still boring, and that is never good.

Doesn't that fall under Creative, then? Isn't that more a Creative thing to devise that character? Since, you know, you argue Jericho doesn't come up with any of his own material?

Put it this way, if the goal is to make someone as exciting as watching paint dry, it is still "as exciting as watching paint dry". And that isn't a good thing.

I don't dispute that. It's why I hate Randy Orton, frankly. Still, I think there's more to it than "Jericho absolutely sucks." It's possible for Jericho to play a character that is absolute rubbish.

Do you honestly mean to tell me that Jericho's heel persona can hold a candle to any of the All-time Great Heels I rattled off earlier?

We've already cleared this up, I believe.

And it is still, at the end of the day, a very boring, bland, and generic character.

That is still played very well by a terrific actor. That's what it boils down to.

I can dress anyone .... ANYONE in the Indys to dress up in a suit, and walk out and do what Chris Jericho does each and every week on Raw and Smackdown on the mic.

"Blah, blah, blah Parasites."

"Blah, blah, blah Hypocrites."

"Blah, blah, best in the world at what I do."

"Blah blah named by Stephanie McMahon as Wrestler of the year 2009."


It is the same damn promo every single week.

And what makes it even worse is his monotonous tone of voice, which absolutely puts people to sleep. Usually very monotone and very rarely gets excited.

But can that Indy wrestler perform with half the believability as Y2J? I sincerely doubt it.


The bottom line is that "Acting Boring" is still ... "Boring". It's a terrible character, and very vastly Over-rated Heel-- especially when you compare him to the All Time Great Heels of the Past.

Actually, Jericho is on both shows for the exact same reason as The Big Show is on both shows-- to inflate the size of the rosters for each show ... to give an extra Upper Midcarder to each show. Both shows are a little short on Upper Midcarders, and this has been WWE's way to work an extra one on each show.

Please. If Vince were going to do that, he would've given up the Brand Extension long ago. There's a reason he specifically chose Jericho and Edge.

And I would not be surprised if WWE keeps this little trend up with Upper Midcarders holding the Tag Team Titles.

Yeah, mainly due to the Tag Team Division being shit, more than anything. Besides, this really isn't a new concept. Edge and Orton. Cena/Bastista. It's actually a very common thing to pai upper mid carders.

So believe me, it has nothing to do with Jericho alone giving anyone a rub ... and rather simply because he is a solidified Upper Midcarder, and WWE needs filler in this category on both shows.

Hmm.... I still feel the rub. Again, we agree to disagree.

And again, that is understood. But even his matches before this particular persona were never "really special". Nothing stood out with them either.

Jericho is not really a high-flyer, and if his IWC mark fans think of him as this, then shame on them.

One of his signature moves is a Lionsault. I'm willing to bet that any number of posters on here could do the same thing if they run up on the second rope and propel themselves backwards.

But to classify Jericho as a high-flyer as someone like a ... Jeff Hardy (in Jericho's old character) is flat-out dishonest.

You're right... Hardy's a spot monkey, while Jericho's aerial assualt actually has logic behind it.

You know, when are you going to start blaming Chris Jericho himself, instead of being a Jericho-apologist? It's always someone else's fault ... never Chris Jericho's fault.

No, I agree, he has some fault. But not as much as you give him.

That is absolutely, 100% false. Jericho's promos today are scripted word for word. And I know that because when the one script got leaked to the Internet ... it was the show with Jericho and Jimmy Snuka, where Jericho knocked Snuka out with a coconut ... it had his entire promo on there, and he uttered it word for word, what was on that script.

Then how do you explain the internet belief that Jericho and Michaels created their own feud, promos and all, without bookers?

So, sorry to disappoint all the Jericholics, but Chris Jericho's material is fully scripted, just like everyone else.

He'll take some script. But I dopubt all his promos are scripted. Besides, I doubt it's his choice to take the script. We all know who's responsible for that.

Don't give me this bull, Tenta. Bischoff was not part of the Creative team, and nor did he mention at any time that he routinely consulted with the Creative Team. He re-iterated many times that he was STRICTLY TALENT ... nothing more.

But if you have proof otherwise, stating that Jericho came up with the concept, I would absolutely love to hear it.

I get my proof from Controversy Creates Cash. Read it recently?

Bischoff states how he has talked, on multiple occasions, with Vince, about ideas. Not a part of Creative, perhaps... But definitely on Vince's ear.

Again, don't insult people's intelligence by calling Jericho a high-flyer. Just because he can do a Moonsault off the second rope does not make him a high-flyer.

Well, your theory for not calling him a high flier is that he botches. Just pointing out all wrestlers that go to the top rope botch.

Absolutely not. When he starts Main Eventing Wrestlemanias regularly, please let me know.

Jericho is a Part Time Main Eventer, when needed (that will never hold the title for any significant amount of time ... because he doesn't draw) ....

and he is a regular, solid Upper Midcarder ... who will NEVER be considered one of the Greatest of All Time ... despite the delusions of his Internet fanbase.

Again, I don't think the IWC views him in the same manner you think.

Now, this all stemmed from a question of DVDs, no? The topic was, Does Chris deserve one? Well, consider this:

Soon, Batista will have one. I can't dispute it, but he has extended stays in the upper mid card.

Jeff Hardy has one out. He was the definition of what you're pegging Jericho as.

Mysterio will have one, if he doesn't already. Complete case of a mid carder. So if they can have one, why not Jericho?

 

[SavageTaker]

Everyone else has given their thoughts on Chris Jericho so I guess now it’s my turn. I think he’s neither underrated or overrated, although he has had some matches which are underrated. But as a performer, he isn’t.

As far as his in-ring skills go, I think they are wonderful and he’s one of the best WWE has at the moment. He can good matches with just about anyone and he has had matches which I have absolutely love, such as his match with HBK at WM19.

As far as mic-skills are concerned, I think he’s average. I understand why he’s dull and boring as a heel currently but I prefer him when he’s a babyface. But the problem I had with him as a babyface is that he was hit and miss on the mic. Sometimes he’d have some spectacular promos but then he’d also have some not so spectacular promos.

Another thing I want to mention is that I prefer his work as a mid/upper mid-carder than his work as a main-eventer. Although, he’s done a lot of great things in both positions, I found him more entertaining when he was facing other mid-carders such as RVD, Jeff Hardy, Rey Mysterio (yes, I consider him a mid/upper mid carder), e.t.c.

In summation, I think he’s a fantastic wrestler with average mic skills which I don’t mind much except for when he’s giving long promos. He’s been involved in a lot of fantastic feuds and overall I think he’s pretty awesome. So I think he’s rated correctly.

 

[gully side adidja]

chris jericho is the undisputed king of the world, and the best in the world at what he does, the man is never boring,always has good matches(morrison/punk/edge/rey/undertaker/steamboat)with anyone, adapts to any style match/wrestler, tells the truth, and should be rated extremely highly more than anyone else on the wwe roster besides undertaker,

superstar of the year 2009? look no further

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I'm going to start this off by stating that, for the most part, at least what you're agrguing, we agree. Jericho is not the greatest of all time, nor will he ever be. He may not even be the best performer right now, who knows. So by this context, yes, you're right.

Thank you.

But I doubt Jericho fans really believe him to be the best ever. I think you highly misconstrue the Jericho fans, as I don't think any of them will tell you he's the greatest ever. If they do, they need to get more educated about men such as Race, Flair, even Hulk Hogan as a heel. No one's arguing that he's one of the greatest of all time. What I intend to argue is that, at this point, he is the best pure wrestler the WWE has at this point. Even if that is at above average, that may be the case. It's not like the WWE is exactly filled with tremendous workers. Also, I think somewhere along these lines, we're going to dispute whether this man deserves a DVD. Isn't this more or less how this debate started, Sidious?

No, No, No.

Never underestimate the Jericho Internet Mark. They are absolutely caught up in their delusions that the WWE is incapable of surviving without him. You see it all the time all over the net from his brainwashed fans.

We had a couple fans come to an Indy show in MD with which Jericho was signing autographs, before he returned to the WWE. This was when the Save Us teasers were airing on WWE TV. I can't tell you how many fans that told him that "WWE can't go on without him", "The WWE is going to completely turn around with him coming back", etc.

Now, of course he didn't acknowledge his return, as he couldn't talk about it ... but he did question some people and asked them "Why do you think I am so valuable to the WWE? They can easily survive without me. I'm not essential to their success."

He seems to honestly have a more firm grasp on the reality of the situation than his fans do ... to his credit.

It depends on what Jericho matches we're talking here. Are we including his WCW stint. Because I will totally throw in his matches with Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio Jr., and even possibly The Juvi Juice. Now, if we're also counting even before that, I'd advise you to watch his Super J Cup match with Wild Pegasus (A man we better know as Chris Benoit.)If you don't believe that match is possibly the best of either man's career, I seriously wonder about you.

Well, I mainly was discussing recent matches as this is where he's been trying to make his "Main Event" mark.

I do look at his time in WCW, and it was quite good.

Now, if we're talking about his stints in the main event, I tend to disagree, again. I loved his match in 2001 with Benoit and Austin. I also like his Fully Loaded match in 2000 with Trips. Now, I'm not sure if you count an Elimination Chamber match, but even you must admit that was terrific, both of them he was in. Oh, and though we may disagree, Michaels/Jericho was easily the best ladder match in the last five years. Aside from his matches at the GAB and Unforgiven with Shawn.

Hmmm.... Yes and no. I suppose you could say that. I'd argue that there will never be another main event this loaded ever again in the history of the WWE, or for that matter, any promotion. Did you have the time to consider those names, Sidious. Those are all hall of famers. Each and everyone of them. And even you admit you find Jericho better than Foley. Granted, that's because you don't particularly enjoy Foley, but we can save that debate for another time.

I never said that I didn't like Foley. I just look at him realistically as far as where he stands in the history books with how he is perceived by the audience, how much of a draw he was, etc. Foley was hot for a while because of the spots he did in his matches, and as we see, now he is not.

I think it's pretty clear based on this, what got him over with the fans.

Did you ever think that Jericho just is capable of giving anyone the rub?

I never thought he necessarily was. But it's quite clear that his fans think he can. Who has he really given a rub to?

Look at Shelton Benjamin, Sidious. Jericho went down to the mid card to feud with him. And he gave Shelton the best six months of his career, bar none. He actually made me enjoy Shelton. That, my friend, is saying something. It's very simple... When Vince wants someone to get over, he takes a main event name who can work good matches, cut good promos, and has them work constantly with that person, in the hopes they get over. That's what, more or less, he did with Bret Hart for so long, Sidious. And while I would dare never say Bret and Chris are equals, the parallels are indeed there.

Who honestly even remembers Jericho feuding with Shelton Benjamin? Highly, highly forgettable. Nothing noteworthy happened.

I honestly can't believe you are comparing Chris Jericho to Bret Hart. In terms of not getting injured ... or injuring someone ... fine. But Jericho is no where near as good a technical wrestler as Bret Hart was.

And if casual fans were to be surveyed in who they would rather listen to in an interview/promo ... I can guarantee that Bret Hart would be listed first. At least with his promos, the entire promo wasn't the same promo he cut last week, and the week before, and the week before that.

I wouldn't call it forgettable, per se. I'd say the transition to working with The Rock was a bit jagged, but again, people do remember Benoit and Jericho VS. The Two Man Power Trip. They remember Jericho and Benoit taking the belts from them. They remember TLC III, which was fantastic. They remember when Stone Cold stacked the decks against both men. And while it came at a time when Rock and Trips were gone, it was a viable draw throughout 2001. And even then, he became a major cog in the Invasion storyline, which tended to make everything in that 2001 era seem so bad.

Jericho was most definitely NOT a major part of the Invasion storyline. What are you smoking, Tenta? Even DDP had a bigger role in this thing than Jericho did. Jericho was basically Vince McMahon's patsy and played a filler role in the team.

The point is that a lot of these things you remember, Casual fans don't remember or don't simply care. Because Jericho is simply not someone they deem to be a Main Eventer in the WWE.

It's Jericho's fans, however, that are the problem, in thinking that he is.

I think we can agree that Cena is a greater draw than Jericho. Either than that, give me one name not named Undertaker that provides that typical draw of Jericho.

Sure.

Shawn Michaels
Triple H

Aha! Thought you were going to point out this Canada crowd. And the fact is, Toronto is an absolutely ambivalent crowd. It's not that same smark town that you get in Montreal, or even in Calgary. It just isn't. If it were, Hogan and Warrior would possibly been boo'ed out of the arena. So using the Canada argument isn't going to cut it for me. It's pretty much America, anyway.

No, No, No. Toronto can very much be a Smark crowd. That is why they still continue to chant "You Screwed Bret" to this day.

However, they have 2 biases.

1) Anyone billed from Canada is an instant babyface there, because they are a bunch of marks for their country.

2) They do appreciate and value nostalgia, and it is quite clear that they have a huge fondness of Hulk Hogan there.


But Jericho, despite being a Canadian and being in the Main Event, just couldn't deliver.

I can't believe you'd use the italics as a part of your argument. Stephanie McMahon only weakened Jericho's position in that feud. It made it more relevant that it was Trips V.S. Steph. Jericho was reduced to an afterthought. And we all know it's because the McMahons simply love to be on camera.

She ENHANCED his position, if anything. You really think fans were going to take Jericho seriously as a Main Eventer with the Unified Title at that point had he not had the rub of someone like the McMahon's?

Believe me, it would have been even worse for Jericho had Stephanie NOT been involved. At least the crowd remotely cared about the guy and took him semi-seriously as a Heel holding the top title of the company at this point.

Because no wrestler could ever top that. Period.

So in other words, Jericho marks were let down because their expectations and philosophies of the guy are simply unachievable.

Again, this goes to show that Jericho is simply not in the same league as those guys.

Their may be validity to that statement. However, again, it doesn't matter the talent he's working with... He's there, and that's all that matters.

Yes, and again it is a testament to the rest of the roster being absolutely so lousy as terms of being over with the audience, that Jericho gets a reaction by default. Compared to the All Time Great Heels, Jericho absolutely CAN NOT compare, whatsoever.

So, what I say to his fans is "STOP OVER-RATING THE GUY".

Ank. Sorry, but that is incorrect, sir. Rather, the next match was The Divas match involving Trish Stratus (Which, by the way, should have had the home pop you were referring to earlier. Still, she didn't either.) Then they went right away to the WWE Championship match.

Okay. They had a match to rest up. That was still plenty of time for them to "rest".

Had Jericho been as over and as great as his fans claimed, he could have brought the crowd to their feet, especially with the home field advantage. Bottom line he couldn't ... and he is NOT in the league of the All Time Greats.

Of course I am. But again, consider those two. You want to penalize Jericho for not living up to those standards?

That's absurd.

Okay, fine. Chris Jericho is NOT in the league of Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin, John Cena, or Ric Flair.

So what is so great about the guy, that his fans try to put him up on a pedestal as being so great?

He's an above average worker. That is all he is.

Well, in all fairness, consider the common denominator in all of these Wrestlemania Matches you speak of:

Triple H. Again, I'm not going to sit here and tell you Trips holds talent down. But the evidence is out there. Trips has been in every single Wrestlemania main event from XIX to 23. And even then, he was out due to injury. And you can't book Triple H VS. Jericho for each of these Wrestlemanias. Why? Because that's just horrible booking.

Then again, having one guy at the main event at Wrestlemania that much is poor booking. But that's another topic.

Triple H hold talent down? I don't know where you are getting this absurd notion from. Hogwash.

In all seriousness, you can only go so far with this "Triple H is holding Jericho down" business. It's time to face the facts. Jericho is not involved in the Main Event at Wrestlemania because he is not in the league of John Cena, Triple H, The Undertaker, or Shawn Michaels at this point.

Jericho is nothing more than Internet hype from his crazed Internet marks.

Actually, there has been little reaction for Austin/Trips. Their Survivor Series match that last year flopped. So did the Three Stages of Hell, though it was an actual good match.

How do you define it "flopping"? Says who? It obviously did not have the innovativeness of their prior conflicts, but that is because Triple H and Austin was overdone by that point.

You mean to tell me those matches were anywhere near what they could have been should Triple H have been healthy? That was possibly the worst Angle/Trips match out there. And if we're going any further, there's a time at that year's Backlash in which Trips clearly runs into Hulk Hogan while both are running the ropes. Aside from that being a horrendous match, as well.

You want to blame Triple H for running into Hogan, when that was more than likely Hogan's fault at his age?

As far as "the worse Angle/Triple H match" I am going to have to review that. I think you are embellishing this to try to make a point here, because I do not remember that match being bad, whatsoever. If that match stunk up the joint, it would have been made a big deal on the Internet, but I certainly don't remember it being a "bad match" at all.

Now, that's very disputable. Will you try to argue that WWE prgramming from 2003-2005, during Triple H's dominant reigns, wasn't some of the worst television known to man?

Not at all. I thought that was awful television, as well. And I blame Vince McMahon for that, the Head of WWE Creative. Him and Brian Gewirtz had their collective heads up their asses on that.

I'm sorry, but how do you elevate Austin, Rock, and HBK? Please, elaborate.

Well, that's the problem. He was still trying to be elevated himself, and hence they were trying to give him a rub from being around talents like that. And despite all that, he is STILL to this day, not considered a Full Time Main Eventer, and nor do the Casual Fans accept him as such.

I don't dispute that. It's why I hate Randy Orton, frankly. Still, I think there's more to it than "Jericho absolutely sucks." It's possible for Jericho to play a character that is absolute rubbish.

Orton is overall more interesting than Jericho. How can you dispute that?

Orton was involved in the Stephanie-Vince punting incident, had the IED storyline going for him ... and he played an absolute psycho character to perfection. His facial expressions were second to none when it came to portraying a true psychotic character.

Unfortunately, WWE Creative thought they were going "too far" with the character and watered him down.

But Orton is overall far more interesting than this particular version of Jericho which is "as exciting as watching paint dry".

However, if we were to take the Orton of today, and compare him to the old Chris Jericho who was a Face .... then I would probably go along with him being a "more interesting character".

That is still played very well by a terrific actor. That's what it boils down to.

Jericho is not even a terrific actor. Someone who is into acting yourself should know better than that. Saying words with enthusiasm doesn't make one a great actor. On the contrary, sounding completely monotonous doesn't make someone a great actor either.

But can that Indy wrestler perform with half the believability as Y2J? I sincerely doubt it.

Sure. As long as you are at least an average pro wrestler, ring skills matter very little with making that connection with the audience. It's the character and character development as well as the storylines, that connects to the audience.

So, I would say "Sure", a good Indy worker could do the job.

Or I could dress up Charlie Haas in a suit to do the job Jericho currently does.

Like I said, if this character was not named "Chris Jericho", you bet your ass that the Internet would be on his case relentlessly for how "over-rated" this character is.

Please. If Vince were going to do that, he would've given up the Brand Extension long ago. There's a reason he specifically chose Jericho and Edge.

Vince doesn't want to give up the Brand Extension because it is more organized behind the scenes for him.

Jericho and Big Show are simply the Tag Team Champions because it gives both shows an extra upper midcarder to add to the other's roster by appearing on both. No doubt in my mind.

Notice how Jerishow really isn't feuding with actual Tag Teams like The Hart Dynasty or Cryme Tyme (except for a brief feud that wasn't going anywhere) ... and that is exactly why they are feuding with DX now.

If DX wins, then Hunter and Shawn will appear on both shows.

They don't care about the Tag Team Division. They care about having 2 strong names on both shows to inflate the Upper Midcarders on the rosters. I'll change my opinion on that when you see DX feuding with a team like The Hart Dynasty, over the titles-- and The Hart Dynasty actually wins.

Yeah, mainly due to the Tag Team Division being shit, more than anything. Besides, this really isn't a new concept. Edge and Orton. Cena/Bastista. It's actually a very common thing to pai upper mid carders.

It was laziness before, just for the sake of keeping the Tag Team Division on Life Support, for the sake of having a "Tag Team Division". However, nowadays, after the titles have been merged, the rule of "Tag Team Champions appearing on both shows" pretty much makes their purpose crystal clear.

Hmm.... I still feel the rub. Again, we agree to disagree.

No. There is no "agree to disagree" about this one.

Who has Jericho given a "rub" to in this particular role as Tag Team Champion?

You're right... Hardy's a spot monkey, while Jericho's aerial assualt actually has logic behind it.

Other than a moonsault, how is Jericho considered an "aerial wrestler"? He isn't.

No, I agree, he has some fault. But not as much as you give him.

What is his fault then? You admitted it. Now, if you would kindly spell it out ....

Then how do you explain the internet belief that Jericho and Michaels created their own feud, promos and all, without bookers?

I don't necessarily believe it. I explain it because Jericho marks reside on the Internet and they are essentially Jericho's PR team. Although, at least there are people out there that can dissect and cut through the bullshit to keep things in-line.

They MAY have had some input in what was happening in the segment, but I can guarantee that the creative team wrote their segments, just like they do everyone else's. That's their job.

He'll take some script. But I doubt all his promos are scripted. Besides, I doubt it's his choice to take the script. We all know who's responsible for that.

You don't think all of Jericho's promos are scripted? It's TV, man. EVERYTHING is scripted. And that helps the shows stick to their tight time schedule.

And I'm sure Jericho would rather go off-script and do his own thing, I agree. Personally, I wish WWE would encourage more wrestlers to write their own promos ... if they have the talent to do it and that is what they want to do.

The more buy-in you have from the talent, the better they are likely to perform in the role ... and better independent contractor they will likely be for Vince.

I get my proof from Controversy Creates Cash. Read it recently?

I did read it, but not recently.

Bischoff states how he has talked, on multiple occasions, with Vince, about ideas. Not a part of Creative, perhaps... But definitely on Vince's ear.

And let's take a few steps back. You were claiming that Jericho came up with the idea for MITB ... and it now evolved into a discussion on Bischoff being in Vince's ear.

Can you tell me the page in that book where Bischoff said that "MITB was all Chris Jericho's idea and that Bischoff himself took that idea and pitched it to Vince?"

Is that anywhere in the book, Tenta? If so, let me know the page number.

Well, your theory for not calling him a high flier is that he botches. Just pointing out all wrestlers that go to the top rope botch.

Again, Jericho is not really considered an aerial wrestler. Whoever considers him one is simply another delusional Jericho mark.

Again, I don't think the IWC views him in the same manner you think.

Believe me, I've had more than enough conversations with his fanatic fans, who worship the ground he walks on.

And a good amount of these people make up the IWC.

Now, this all stemmed from a question of DVDs, no? The topic was, Does Chris deserve one? Well, consider this:

Soon, Batista will have one. I can't dispute it, but he has extended stays in the upper mid card.

Jeff Hardy has one out. He was the definition of what you're pegging Jericho as.

Mysterio will have one, if he doesn't already. Complete case of a mid carder. So if they can have one, why not Jericho?

When did I say that "Jericho didn't deserve his own DVD"? I only said that Jericho was a Part Time Main Eventer, and not considered a Full Time Main Eventer ... and that he was primarily an Upper Midcarder.

I'm not sure how you got out of that statement that "I don't think he deserves a DVD". Sure, he deserves a DVD. He deserves several.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I can't recall too many instances where Jericho has elevated somebody because he isn't that great a superstar that you can get a rub off of like an Undertaker or a HHH. His tag team reign would be the perfect opportunity but who have he and Big Show feuded with? Cryme Tyme, Mark Henry & MVP, and DX. Imagine if Cryme Tyme or the Hart Dynasty won the titles off of Jerishow. That would be a huge accomplishment in their eyes but I agree with Sidious that the only reason they are tag team champs is to add a midcarder to each show.