Chris Jericho - The Rate Debate

[IrishCanadian25]

Recently, in the forums Spam Zone, resdient blowhard Lord Sidious asserted that a Chris Jericho DVD wasn't worth watching because he is "overrated." In fact, let's go to the video tape:

I have absolutely no interest in a Chris Jericho DVD. As far as I'm concerned, he should take his own advice. Truly one of the most over-rated performers of our day. I think even his Internet fanbase thinks he's more important than he considers himself to be.

Lord Sidious has kindly declined my invitation to debate this matter with me, though I have a feeling he'll be unable to resist once he sees the thread. Even still, Sidious alone just cannot stand toe to toe with me on this point, so I figured I'd open it up to everyone.

Here, in brief, is my statement on the matter:

1. Chris Jericho is among the most consistent, dynamic performers in the last 25 years.

When people think back to the few non-nWo angles that were over / entertaining back in the 90's, often times it was the luchador matches and high-flying mid-carders who come to mind. But during much of that era, do you know who was one of the longest reigning Cruiserweight Champions? Chris Jericho was. He defeated men like Dean Milenko, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and Psicosis on a weekly basis, and was often depended on to open PPV's to fire up the crowds. He drew mega heat as an obnoxious, whiny heel, but somehow backed it up in the ring.

He also went on to win the WCW Television Title and consistently defend that.

His debut in the WWF is often considered one of the best wrestler debuts in the history of wrestling, and the best part about it? It was all Jericho's idea. The Countdown clock, the promo, ALL OF IT. And Vince and co. believed in him so much, that they had him interrupt The Rock, of all people.

Currently, Jericho is the most consistent part of the WWE product. He seemlessly moves from the World Title pictures (think 2008 scramble match), through drama-heavy feuds (vs Michaels, Mysterio), to basically carrying the tag division as well as a partner (Big Show) who was stuck in limbo.

2. Jericho is among the most innovative and creative wrestling minds of the last 25 years.

I already mentioned the countdown clock. How about the Money in the Bank ladder match? Currently a Wrestlemania tradition, this idea was Jericho's and was pitched to Bischoff. IT WORKED.

Go back to WCW. Remember Ralphus? Ridiculous as it was, it was funny and an iconic part of Jericho's obnoxious persona. Jericho's idea. He picked Ralphus out, almost by accident, from the ring crew. Turned Ralphus into a mega-star.

3. Jericho isn't a liability.

Chris Jericho has never been injured in the ring. Ever. He's a safe competitor, which is rare for a guy though of as a "high flyer." He has that classic "Stu Hart's Dungeon" pedigree, where the emphasis is on using the match to tell an athletic story AND protecting yourself and your opponent.

4. Jericho is a multi-faceted attraction.

Pro wrestler. Rock band front man. Hockey player. Jericho is so marketable because his reach is so broad. Part of that is a function of his work ethic and another part his god-given charisma. He's a consummate performer.

And yet you called him overrated?

Reactions, please...

 

[Alex]

Agree totally Jericho is probably the most rounded wrestler ever, he can wrestle, he pitches ideas, he knows how the buisness works, If he broke his leg tomorrow and couldn't wrestle (I hope not) he could easily get a backstage job in an instant or carry on with Fozzy, either way he's guaranteed a job

 

[BooCocky]

1. Chris Jericho is among the most consistent, dynamic performers in the last 25 years.

Define consistent?

When people think back to the few non-nWo angles that were over / entertaining back in the 90's, often times it was the luchador matches and high-flying mid-carders who come to mind. But during much of that era, do you know who was one of the longest reigning Cruiserweight Champions? Chris Jericho was. He defeated men like Dean Milenko, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and Psicosis on a weekly basis, and was often depended on to open PPV's to fire up the crowds. He drew mega heat as an obnoxious, whiny heel, but somehow backed it up in the ring.

O yay, he was a huge heat magnet as a low card heel... Congratulations Chris Jericho, you are by far the greatest competitor of all time

He also went on to win the WCW Television Title and consistently defend that.

Another low mid card title. Congratulations. I am starting to see something. He was a defender of low tier titles.

His debut in the WWF is often considered one of the best wrestler debuts in the history of wrestling, and the best part about it? It was all Jericho's idea. The Countdown clock, the promo, ALL OF IT. And Vince and co. believed in him so much, that they had him interrupt The Rock, of all people.

That affect though was short lived and when he went into the main event he was a huge flop. So huge he basically jobbed out to HHH at WM. Another congratulations to Chris Jericho. Hulk Hogan watch out Jericho was a short lived main eventer... Congratulations.
C

urrently, Jericho is the most consistent part of the WWE product. He seemlessly moves from the World Title pictures (think 2008 scramble match), through drama-heavy feuds (vs Michaels, Mysterio), to basically carrying the tag division as well as a partner (Big Show) who was stuck in limbo.

Why does he consistently move from division to division though? Because he isn't good enough to stay in the main event and once he is there, he becomes boring and stale. Jericho is decent in the main event in very small doses.

3. Jericho isn't a liability.
Chris Jericho has never been injured in the ring. Ever. He's a safe competitor, which is rare for a guy though of as a "high flyer." He has that classic "Stu Hart's Dungeon" pedigree, where the emphasis is on using the match to tell an athletic story AND protecting yourself and your opponent.

That's good he never injured anyone.

4. Jericho is a multi-faceted attraction.
Pro wrestler. Rock band front man. Hockey player. Jericho is so marketable because his reach is so broad. Part of that is a function of his work ethic and another part his god-given charisma. He's a consummate performer.

He could be a multi faceted attraction. Too bad he was never a huge draw, he spent the majority of his career bouncing from division to division because once he reached the big times he wasn't good enough to stay there. He is a mid carder at best. Even though you didn't really say anything regarding his IC titles, which is a good feat, too bad none of them were that memorable. Which is a shame because you're putting Jericho on some huge pedestal even though he really isn't that great. He is good at being a mid carder but I have a hard time seeing him as anything more. His title reigns are hardly memorable, his reigns aren't that long, and I have a hard time believing he has elevated a lot of competition. Jericho may be very good, but I wouldn't watch his DVD. Because I think it could expose him for what he truly is.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I agree with you 100% IC25, in fact I would suggest if anything, he's grossly underrated. Now before the lord of negativity surfaces to argue otherwise, let's be clear.

In terms of in-ring talent, I think he's one of the most technically sound wrestlers in the game today. He can put off a match with a variety of different guys, of different sizes, of different skill levels, and the match is still golden. He's an excellent heel, but in my opinion, he's even more effective as the cocky comical face. His verbal jousts with Stephanie years ago, or his infamous list of holds from his WCW days, just classic.

As you stated, never injured in the ring, much like the Hitman, and that alone takes talent and skill. Fake or not, pro wrestling is a very physical and grueling business, and he's never hurt. As far as I know, not only does he not miss time due to injury, he is rarely if ever working through an injury. And equally important, he's not injuring other guys either.

He's good in the ring and stellar on the mic. He interacts with any of the guest hosts (like them or not) better than anyone. He's not physically huge like some guys are, but he's always near the top anyway. In a business that typically rewards the big man, you have to be superb to excel if you're smaller in stature. And he's is superb.

His debut, when he interrupted the Rock, was legendary. His second debut had potential to be as good if not better, except with the internet and the IWC, it couldn't be kept a surprise and so by the time he actually arrived, everyone knew about it. If this could have been kept under wraps better, with no one knowing what all of those symbols were representing, until he actually showed up on Raw, it would have been epic.

And of course, he's Canadian, has to be seen as a plus as well.

Of course, IC25, you realize we're shareholders for believing this about Jericho because what we are posting is not critical and negative. Because we don't feel that it's WWE and Vince McMahon's business and so therefore it must suck, we must be shareholders and we must hold these views simply because we're only interested in Vince making money. But that's OK, better a WWE Shareholder than a Chronic Complainer.

 

[D-Man]

My reaction is that anyone who doesn't agree with all the points listed above is just someone that takes his character on television too seriously. Jericho is EASILY the greatest asset to the WWE over the past 12 months.

No one draws more heat than Jericho's current persona.
Not even Randy Orton (at his peak) could interrupt a promo, feel no need to get overemotional on a microphone, and be drowned out by the boos of the crowd. In a time and era where a decent crowd reaction is rarer than an interesting women's division storyline, Jericho has found the niche to constantly manipulate the crowds' emotions. Thus making a more interesting television segment and telling a tremedous story outside of the ring.

People want to watch Jericho's matches.
Someone tell me the last time that you turned off a Chris Jericho match? Especially when you knew he was in the main event with a top star (such as his match against the Undertaker a few weeks ago)? The guy draws viewers and whether they want him to win or lose, people have a genuine interest in his matches.

I think IC25 covered his other positives. No need to go over them in more detail.

Love him or hate him, and I don't quote storyline jargon and use it for factual purposes very often, but you can't deny that he could possibly be "the best in the world at what he does."

 

[Mr. TM]

Chris Jericho is one of the, if not, best performers of this decade. Sometimes you don't realize how much you miss someone until they go away. Jericho left the company and I for one can say that I missed him like no other. Jericho's return, to take on Orton could have been an incredible feud, but Orton sure is boring.

Shawn Michaels and Rey Mysterio are well past their primes in the company, but were given incredible feuds with Jericho in the past few years. Big Show has regained most of the weight he has lost, yet still is put in a great storyline teaming with Jericho in one of my favourite tag teams of this decade.

Jericho gets a lot of love from some, and a lot of hate from others. He should be rated highly, as he is one person who goes out there each and every night, works his ass off for the fans, and can be put in a multitude of feuds to help the company. Jericho is a man to work a company around.

 

[Blade]

Ok, I'm not quite sure how to phrase this. He is one of the best in the world today, I do think that. He's a great all-rounder, like most guys with his size and build.

He has some of the most memorable promos of all time. Remember the promos mocking Stephanie or when he was feuding with The Rock? How about the man of 1,004 holds? These promos were incredible, and if they didn't make you laugh then, quite simply, you have no soul. And his serious promos are almost as good, if slightly repetitive.

Like IC25 said, the guy is a creative mastermind. He comes up with very entertaining ideas both in and out of the ring. I won't go through all the examples, cause IC25 pretty much named every one worth mentioning.

But the thing is, some people talk about him like he's a god and he could touch turd and it would turn to gold, like he has no flaw. I love Jericho, but he does have some flaws. There's the aforementioned repetitveness with his current, more serious promos. He brags about himself and then calls the audience hypocrites or sycophants or parasites. Calls himself the best in the world, then it's over. If he's doing a promo with another person then he'll say all that then the other person will throw some comebacks at him then Jericho will get mad and storm off.

And while he is a superb storyteller and athlete, he can be a little bit sloppy in the ring sometimes. The Codebreaker is a prime example, sometimes he hits it with both knees, sometimes he hits it with one knee, sometimes he doesn't get his opponents head right so it doesn't look very good. That's not intentional.

But apart from the one or two flaws that I can find with him, he is a truly great wrestler.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I pretty much have to agree with the post. I've always found Chris Jericho to be entertaining but his transformation into a heel since his return to the WWE has made him, in my view, the overall best heel in wrestling today. As a face, Jericho always gave dynamic and energetic promos that kept your attention. His promos against Stephanie McMahon back in the early 2000s are still some of the best of this decade. As a heel, Jericho may have toned it down, but his promos are intelligent and articulate. He comes across as an arrogant heel better than anyone in wrestling today.

As far as his wrestling ability goes, I've never really failed to be entertained by a Chris Jericho match. He's just simply a great all around wrestler. He's not the best overall athlete, but he's more than enough athletic, he's not the best mat technician, but he's pretty good, he's not the fastest but he's pretty fast and so on and so forth.

I don't think Jericho is someone that gets the credit that he deserves, never really has unfortunately. He's great on the mic, great in the ring, draws great heat as a heel, has the crowd on its feet as a face. In my view, overall, Chris Jericho is one of the best wrestlers in the world today.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Define consistent?

Dependable is a fair synonym.

O yay, he was a huge heat magnet as a low card heel... Congratulations Chris Jericho, you are by far the greatest competitor of all time

Never called him "the greatest of all time." I said he was far from over rated. Try to stay on topic.

Another low mid card title. Congratulations. I am starting to see something. He was a defender of low tier titles.

I'm sorry, did you expect him to start on top? Of course he has some low- and mid-card titles to his credit. The fact is, when he wasn't the primary part of the show (nWo-era WCW), he still outperformed the rest of the performers.

And I bring up the WCW days because so many people on the forums are so fixated on the goings on of the WWF/E from 2000 through today that people forget Jericho was probably the most effective midcarder WCW had for a while. He was also the first of the young guys to jump ship from WCW to WWF - he blazed a trail that Guerrero and Benoit later followed.

Finally, I'd like to remind you that the WCW TV Title was held and defended in quality feuds by the likes of William Regal, Paul Orndorff, and Arn Anderson.

That affect though was short lived and when he went into the main event he was a huge flop. So huge he basically jobbed out to HHH at WM. Another congratulations to Chris Jericho. Hulk Hogan watch out Jericho was a short lived main eventer... Congratulations.

???

I don't think this makes sense, Brian. I fully understand the fact that he wasn't Stone Cold or Hulk Hogan in his first taste of the Main Event, but in those times he put on CLASSIC WCW Title matches with The Rock, and was a major factor in Triple H's return being as huge as it was because of his history with him and Stephanie. He freed up Austin and Rock to feud with the nWo, and he came through when there were not many big time heels in the WWF at the time. Again, how does that make him "over rated?"

Why does he consistently move from division to division though? Because he isn't good enough to stay in the main event and once he is there, he becomes boring and stale. Jericho is decent in the main event in very small doses.

He moves from division to division because he is flexible enough to do what is asked of him with no ego, and because his skill in the ring and on the mic make him believable in ALL situations. He may be one of the 5 most versatile entertainers in pro wrestling history when you consider heel and face turns and runs in different spots on the card.

Too bad he was never a huge draw, he spent the majority of his career bouncing from division to division because once he reached the big times he wasn't good enough to stay there. He is a mid carder at best.

No, he's a mid-carder on normal days. He's a three-six month WWE Champion at BEST. But shockingly enough, he's good enough to somehow be as relevant or more relevant than the WWE Title some nights. Without looking it up, I am willing to bet that most fans couldn't tell me who was wrestling in the main event on the nights Jericho fought Michaels and Mysterio. Chris doesn't NEED titles to be a compelling entertainer, and that's part of what makes him a terrific performer, ergo, not over rated.

 

[CHAOS]

Okay, I am seriously shocked that there is any actual debate here, Jericho has to go down as one of the best of this generation of wrestling, I have so much respect for the guy, I can not recall him having a poor match in recent memory. Seriously, who's got better mic skills than him in the entire industry at this present time, he always keeps his character fresh, just look at the difference between his current character and the one from the attitude era. I can honestly not see a flaw in this guy.

Instead of the 'haters' just saying they don't agree, I'd like to hear why they don't rate him. Besides, he must be doing something right as he is the current superstar of the year, he was the first ever undisputed champion, just to name a couple of his achievements. He's obviously rated highly by the people who matter otherwise he wouldn't have such a decorated legacy, honestly, you 'haters' have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Lion1990]

Jericho is not overrated as stated he is a consistent performer, sure he is no longer a high flyer, I'd say more technical which shows he can transition into more than one style, and he is a solid wrestler and a very good entertainer whether he is a heel or a face.. The fans still love him and his debut with WWE was one of the greatest debuts of all time in my opinion, I mean when his name shows up on the titantron the fans cheer over his theme music!! which is crazy considering he was just a low card in WCW, so fans respected him back then. Also, when he beat HHH for the title (but the decision was reversed due to a fast count) the crowd went crazy and that was within a year of being in the WWE!! He is far from overrated

 

[X]

Define consistent?

I'm going to go a head and join up with IC here. Fancy a debate Becker?

I'm sure by consisten IC is referring to the quality of his work both inside of the ring and on the microphone, both of which he has excelled in for well over a decade now.

O yay, he was a huge heat magnet as a low card heel... Congratulations Chris Jericho, you are by far the greatest competitor of all time

Were you watching WCW at that time Brian? Go back and watch Jericho on those old Nitros starting in early 1998 all the way up until his departure for the WWF. The guy was so over it was scary. Even when he would receive zero promo time back in 1996 and had the most bland entrance ever, the fans still got behind him huge. Later on when he took the heel turn, he was able to finally use the mic, and he cut some of the funniest damn promos this business has ever seen, stuff right next to The Rock. He had so much heat as a midcarder dude, more so than any of the main event heels at the time, AKA the NWO. There's a reason Vince McMahon signed that kid up once everyone saw he was as good on the mic as he was in the ring.

Another low mid card title. Congratulations. I am starting to see something. He was a defender of low tier titles.

Jericho's held several world titles before, and you know this.

That affect though was short lived and when he went into the main event he was a huge flop. So huge he basically jobbed out to HHH at WM. Another congratulations to Chris Jericho. Hulk Hogan watch out Jericho was a short lived main eventer... Congratulations.

You think that was Chris Jericho's fault man? He's not the booker, he doesn't decide those things. WWE basically threw fucking Stephanie McMahon on top of Jericho and made the feud with Triple H all about Hunter vs. Steph, and obviously Steph's side wasn't going to come out on top of that one, right? He didn't job at Wrestlemania because he wasn't good enough to carry the title or because he was a "flop" as you say (again, go back to the tape man---he was getting serious heat after winning the Undisputed title). Triple H had just come off of a huge injury and was crazy over more than ever in his career, so they decided to make Wrestlemania a quick go-home-happy show for the fans and have Triple H make Jericho look like a jobber.

You cannot blame his quick title loss on his talent at all Brian, it was terrible booking that was responsible for that.

Why does he consistently move from division to division though? Because he isn't good enough to stay in the main event and once he is there, he becomes boring and stale. Jericho is decent in the main event in very small doses.

What do you mean man? Jericho has main evented several PPVs over the last few years, and has been in countless title matches, not to mention his two title reigns last year. The reason he goes from division to division is because of that very same consistency I spoke of earlier, you can plug Jericho in at any slot on a show and he'll do well. He can open the show for you with a fast-paced match with someone like Mysterio, or he can main event a show battling the likes of The Undertaker and John Cena and be just as credible and as entertaining.

Do you really think Jericho couldn't stay over as a top main eventer right now? Of course he could.

He could be a multi faceted attraction. Too bad he was never a huge draw, he spent the majority of his career bouncing from division to division because once he reached the big times he wasn't good enough to stay there. He is a mid carder at best. Even though you didn't really say anything regarding his IC titles, which is a good feat, too bad none of them were that memorable. Which is a shame because you're putting Jericho on some huge pedestal even though he really isn't that great. He is good at being a mid carder but I have a hard time seeing him as anything more. His title reigns are hardly memorable, his reigns aren't that long, and I have a hard time believing he has elevated a lot of competition. Jericho may be very good, but I wouldn't watch his DVD. Because I think it could expose him for what he truly is.

No offense is meant here Becker, but I think you're being a bit stubborn about Jericho. You kind of remind me of how I used to feel originally about the likes of Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero when they were in the main event scene. I was too stuck in the mindset of seeing them wrestle in midcard matches through out their career that it just didn't seem credible when they main evented. Soon enough though I realized that this is the process that every main eventer and legend takes. Look at Shawn Michaels, he went the same midcard to World Title route as Jericho, none of his title reigns are specifically long, he rarely put anyone over, and since returning to the WWE he's been used in every division. You still buy HBK as a credible main eventer though, right? So why not Jericho? Practically identical stories, though I'd say personally Jericho has had the better number of matches during his midcard years than HBK ever did.

 

[Schoolboy-Chris]

I would jump at the opportunity to acquire a Chris Jericho DVD, as I feel it is long overdue. Some superstars such as Batista and John Cena have DVD’s ahead of a man who has been in the business for roughly two decades, which I feel is ridiculous. I feel that he is underrated and has never had the connection with the fans that he should, and that is in keeping with his overall quality as a wrestler and entertainer. If you do not understand this see his 2007 return, the crowd is lukewarm for what I consider the biggest return in years. Though Jericho has been a heel for the most part during his career this has not stopped other stars before and after him from receiving huge positive crowd reactions.

For someone with the well rounded ability and achievements of Jericho it is a mystery to me why the crowd do not respond to him as well as they have to others less gifted than him in many respects. This is an issue that I have thought about for a long time and have difficulty pinpointing the reason for. It could be due to Jericho’s versatility and the fact that he always changes with time, changing elements of himself so that the fans have to forge an almost new bond with him once he does. Jericho is a great wrestler, and moreover has a great wrestling mind with a huge understanding and love of the business. His refusal to grow complacent has seen him jump between catchphrases over his career, resulting in them not sticking as much as some such as those by the Rock and Steve Austin, who almost never delivered a promo not peppered with pre-prepared catchphrases.

This ever changing nature is further displayed in his varying moveset, his changes in finisher over the years hasn’t given the fans something such as the Stunner or the Pedigree to latch onto. It has always seemed to me that Jericho has floundered in the process of trying to find a finishing move that will always be associated with him. For years he used the lionsault to finish matches, however this always had the feel of a signature move rather than a finishing one. The Walls of Jericho was a well known and loved move, but a submission cannot always be relied on to finish a match. When we look back over Jericho’s career we see that he has made many attempts to assimilate a high impact finisher into his repertoire.

The Breakdown (full nelson facebuster) from early 2000’s is all but forgotten, the double powerbomb pin did not stand the test of time, the Flashback (sleeper slam) was only in evidence for a seemingly very short time, his Enzuiguiri was too much of a generic mid match move to take as a finisher, and his brainbuster suplex was never more than a set up to the lionsault. The codebreaker fit the “save us” gimmick that Jericho returned with, and is a move that has served him well in the 2 years he has been using it. The codebreaker is not to many people’s taste however, as it sometimes looks sloppy and unconvincing depending on whom it is applied to. Gregory Helms also used to execute a one knee version of this move, and indeed in a 2003 match between Jericho and Jeff Hardy we see Hardy pull off a perfect codebreaker on Jericho midway through the match, a move that Hardy utilised regularly around this time.

I think that Jericho is underrated largely because he is not the typical face of a company wrestler or the standard heel, he makes himself different which ironically does not cause him to stand out but fade to the background. Whether consciously or unconsciously Jericho has turned himself into a mechanism for putting over other wrestlers rather than himself, he loses far more matches than he wins, rarely acquires heavyweight titles and is currently being used to bring credibility to the career of the big show and the tag team division as a whole.

Vastly underrated, as I think that forums like this are the only place that he is fully appreciated, he is not the type of wrestler that the casual fans get behind en masse and perhaps never will be. Jericho is not a human highlight reel like an RVD or an AJ Styles, he builds matches in a complete manner and has a vast understanding of ring psychology. He is an educated wrestler for the educated wresting fan, and will continue to provide a necessary function to build stars for the future and increase the standard of wrestling as a whole even if he is not rated as highly as he should be by the majority of his viewers.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

As a midcard wrestler in WCW and the WWE, I think Jericho is one of the best of all time. However, he is a tad overrated in the main event side. I'm not saying that Jericho is awful, not at all. I just never see that great match out of him when he is the main guy, when he is the champion. His best matches these last few years was when he was a midcard champion. The main consensus is that his best WWE match ever is his WM 19 bout against HBK. He was back in the midcard not soon after that. His world championship and midcard title reigns have been forgettable and I just think he's a better challenger than champion like Edge is.

I think that Jericho is good, I just don't have faith in him when he goes to the main event because when he does he doesn't stay there for long. He has gotten a little sloppy in the ring but his in-ring work is still good. It's just to me his main event matches drop drastically from his midcard matches.

 

[Y2J420RKO420]

wow now i hate sidious alot more lol.

well first off the reason why chris jericho is the best in the world today is because he does not just sit there and let creative come up with all of his storylines and when they have nothing for him jericho comes up with his own stuff so that he is not left in limbo he is probly THE HARDEST worker besides supercena i mean this guy has been on raw and SD almost every week since him and show tagging and that plus house shows is alot of time that he spends entertaining us each week.

his in ring ability is top teir cause he makes just about EVERYONE look good unlike **cough cough** triple h. he has never refused to job to my knowledge. as noah bennet from heroes refers himself to a company man that what i see jericho as cause he is doing his best to make the tag title important again he did that with the ic title in early summer 09 he does not have to hog main event time like triple h does and like hbk did in the 90's he is just all around the best worker there is today he can make anything work he does not complain and one of the biggest thing is he is not in wwe for money cause he proved he does not need wwe to survive he just enjoys his job he enjoys entertaining period he takes his job seriously almost too seriously which is what makes him great. all in all the only thing he can be overrated on is SOME of his promo's cause lets face it some times he can be really repetitive but the reason for that is he is over exposed right now which will end as soon as him and show drop the titles

 

[Tenta]

As a midcard wrestler in WCW and the WWE, I think Jericho is one of the best of all time. However, he is a tad overrated in the main event side.

Oh, LJL.... Has the time for our spiritied debate risen? I do believe indeed. I really am kinda frothing at the mouth right now... You're going to give me a good battle. I've been waiting for this.

Anyway, if I may ask, what changes about him as in moving from the mid card to the main event? The only thing that changes is the men he works with, nothing else. He still has the same moveset, the same attitude. Nothing changes about him. So why don't you like the guy in the main event?

Now, there's a chance that you're saying you don't like his current gimmick. That sounds like a you thing more than anything. You can not like the gimmick, but you gotta admit that this guy is the best worker in the WWE, bar none, regardless of gimmicks.

I'm not saying that Jericho is awful, not at all. I just never see that great match out of him when he is the main guy, when he is the champion.

Did you miss his match with HBK, last year at No Mercy, in the ladder match? That easily the best ladder match in the last five years. And that's saying something, considering the MITB matches that have come out since that time.

Also, his match with Cena was pretty damn good, as well. Watch it again, and though it's a forgone conclusion Cena was going to win, it didn't matter, because Jericho put on a fantastic show.

His best matches these last few years was when he was a midcard champion. The main consensus is that his best WWE match ever is his WM 19 bout against HBK.

Hmmm..... I'm not so sure I'd buy that, LJL. Sure, the match was great, but I personally liked the ladder match more. I also enjoyed his triple threat match with Chris Benoit and Steve Austin more than I did that match. And both of those instances, he'd be considered in the main event.

He was back in the midcard not soon after that. His world championship and midcard title reigns have been forgettable and I just think he's a better challenger than champion like Edge is.

The challenger thing you won't get much of a debate, as I agree. However, what makes his reigns forgettable? Do you know how many times people still plug that he beat Rock and Austin on the same night? What about that is forgettable, per se? And what was forgettable about his feud with Shawn Michaels, which I'd describe as a main event feud. Hell, even this recent run with the IC belt is memorable. Look at the fantastic matches he put on with Mysterio. Their Belt VS. Mask gimmick was fantastic.

I think that Jericho is good, I just don't have faith in him when he goes to the main event because when he does he doesn't stay there for long. He has gotten a little sloppy in the ring but his in-ring work is still good. It's just to me his main event matches drop drastically from his midcard matches.

So again, I must ask.... Why? It's still the same guy, LJL. So what exactly dissapoints you?

And if you think Jericho has gotten sloppy, what does that make the rest of the WWE roster?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Oh, LJL.... Has the time for our spiritied debate risen? I do believe indeed. I really am kinda frothing at the mouth right now... You're going to give me a good battle. I've been waiting for this.

Anyway, if I may ask, what changes about him as in moving from the mid card to the main event? The only thing that changes is the men he works with, nothing else. He still has the same moveset, the same attitude. Nothing changes about him. So why don't you like the guy in the main event?

Now, there's a chance that you're saying you don't like his current gimmick. That sounds like a you thing more than anything. You can not like the gimmick, but you gotta admit that this guy is the best worker in the WWE, bar none, regardless of gimmicks.



Did you miss his match with HBK, last year at No Mercy, in the ladder match? That easily the best ladder match in the last five years. And that's saying something, considering the MITB matches that have come out since that time.

Also, his match with Cena was pretty damn good, as well. Watch it again, and though it's a forgone conclusion Cena was going to win, it didn't matter, because Jericho put on a fantastic show.



Hmmm..... I'm not so sure I'd buy that, LJL. Sure, the match was great, but I personally liked the ladder match more. I also enjoyed his triple threat match with Chris Benoit and Steve Austin more than I did that match. And both of those instances, he'd be considered in the main event.



The challenger thing you won't get much of a debate, as I agree. However, what makes his reigns forgettable? Do you know how many times people still plug that he beat Rock and Austin on the same night? What about that is forgettable, per se? And what was forgettable about his feud with Shawn Michaels, which I'd describe as a main event feud. Hell, even this recent run with the IC belt is memorable. Look at the fantastic matches he put on with Mysterio. Their Belt VS. Mask gimmick was fantastic.



So again, I must ask.... Why? It's still the same guy, LJL. So what exactly dissapoints you?

And if you think Jericho has gotten sloppy, what does that make the rest of the WWE roster?

I just don't see that same great match quality out of Jericho when he is the main event as opposed to the midcard. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is but that's the way I feel when I watch his matches. The only good match I saw from the HBK feud was his match at either Judgment Day or The Great American Bash. The Armageddon 2006 ladder match was better all-around than the HBK/Jericho ladder one in my opinion. I can't forget about the first MITB either.

It could be the fact that has title reigns are so short that makes it forgettable. His feud with Mysterio over the IC Title was good but that's the only reign of his I can look back and say that the matches and the buildup was great? His matches with Rock and Austin weren't up to par and his WM 18 with HHH was seemingly a footnote and not because of Rock/Hogan.

His title reigns can be seen as transitional as well. I felt he was warming up the belt for HHH in 2002 and for Cena last year. I would love to have seen Cena chase Jericho for the belt and winning it at either Royal Rumble or Wrestlemania but that didn't happen. I just have never seen that great and outstanding Jericho match when he is the top guy and I hope I can see that.

 

[Tenta]

I just don't see that same great match quality out of Jericho when he is the main event as opposed to the midcard. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is but that's the way I feel when I watch his matches.

Again, then it's probably a you thing. And while you may feel one way, the entire IWC, and pretty much every single fan the WWE has feels otherwise.

Now, maybe you'ra trained to feel a certain way, because of how he was booked in WCW, as you alluded to. First impressions are hard to wipe away. But I guarantee you, if you let that go, and just watched the matches for what they were, you'd feel differently. I assure you.

The only good match I saw from the HBK feud was his match at either Judgment Day or The Great American Bash. The Armageddon 2006 ladder match was better all-around than the HBK/Jericho ladder one in my opinion. I can't forget about the first MITB either.

I'm sorry, but anyone that values a ladder match featuring William Regal and Dave Taylor, over two of the most athletic wrestlers of our time, and one being the master of the ladder match, I seriously have to wonder what kind of reality altering drug they're on. Whatever it is, pass some on over to me, man.

Look, while the 2006 Armageddon match had great spots, there was absolutely no backstory. Just guys going out and jumping on ladders. The Shawn/Jericho ladder match was the crescendo of the best feud of 2008, and had so much added juice to it.

But, you know, I guess high spots are all a ladder match needs, right?

It could be the fact that has title reigns are so short that makes it forgettable.

Then that's a booking problem, LJL, that's not a Jericho problem. But since you address it later, we'll come back to this point.

His feud with Mysterio over the IC Title was good but that's the only reign of his I can look back and say that the matches and the buildup was great?

I'm going to hate myself for bringing this up...

I loved his feud with Shelton Benjamin over the IC Title. Yes, I said it. But it was all Jericho building up that feud. Also, I enjoyed the feud with Chyna. No story? That feud had all the makings of a brilliant story. Calling them co-champions actually worked, which was a shock for me, as I thought it was destined to fail. Watching those two save one another, only to backstab the other when they could was hilarious television.

Also, you don't think his wars with Chris Benoit weren't entertaining? Now I'm really interested in whatever you're smoking over there?

His matches with Rock and Austin weren't up to par and his WM 18 with HHH was seemingly a footnote and not because of Rock/Hogan.

Well, in all fairness, Ric Flair and Harley Race could have gone out there, in their primes, had a five star match, and it wouldn't have mattered. You're completely overlooking how historical Hogan/Rock was. It'll probably be the last generational Icon match we will ever see, and made everything else on that show obselete. You can't fault Jericho for being below one of the most historic matches in WWE history.

His title reigns can be seen as transitional as well. I felt he was warming up the belt for HHH in 2002

.... How should I put this kindly?

Ah, fuck it..... No Shit.

First, and this is completely separate from the argument, but it's absolute bullshit that Triple H was going to be named the first undisputed champion. When you had Steve Austin and The Rock still on payroll, who are symbols of the the WWE still today, and they aren't given the chance to run with the first Undisputed WWE Championship, that is absolute bullshit, and complete politicking on the part of HHH.

Second, again, everyone knows Triple H was supposed to be the first Undisputed WWE Champion. That's not a shock. Still, the WWE had Jericho go over the Rock and Austin, because they knew he was the absolute best choice

and for Cena last year.

Now in all fairness, that has nothing to do with Jericho. He was having a fine reign, the WWE felt they needed their top star outside the WWE to have the belt, to hotshot ratings. The ratings for Jericho were actually up, compared to former champions. It was the WWE's decision to place John Cena there, and I doubt the WWE had plans to make Jericho a "transitional champ"

I would love to have seen Cena chase Jericho for the belt and winning it at either Royal Rumble or Wrestlemania but that didn't happen. I just have never seen that great and outstanding Jericho match when he is the top guy and I hope I can see that.

A. So would I, as well. Blame the WWE's booking.

B. If you haven't yet, I promise you, you're not looking hard enough. That, or you just are absolutely blind to the outstanding work Jericho has put in the past, and is putting in now.

 

[klunderbunker]

Jericho is far from overrated. He's one of the best talkers ever, he can wrestle just about any style asked of him from catch as catch can to submission to hardcore to aerial to anything else I'm overlooking. However, he has more or less been a failure as world champion. However, I don't blame him for this. His first world title reign came about when Rock and Austin were still top draws, HHH was returning from injury and was built up to be the second coming, and Hogan/the NWO were coming in. Jericho was a placeholder at that time until HHH could be the real guy that Vince wanted in that spot. Jericho was great, but I can't think of anyone who could hang with the likes of Austin, Rock and Hogan. That's just too much to ask of anyone. His more recent title reign was built around his feud with Shawn. Once that ended, there was nowhere for him to go, which wasn't Jericho's fault, as that's just bad writing. Either way, him getting there was great. The one thing I'd lvoe to see is Jericho as a face champion, as I think it could work better. Anyway that's getting off track.

Jericho is far from overrated. He's always great on the mic and plays the character he's working to perfection. His matches are always at least good and he seems to be having as much fun as anyone ever does. He's rated just fine.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Again, then it's probably a you thing. And while you may feel one way, the entire IWC, and pretty much every single fan the WWE has feels otherwise.

Now, maybe you'ra trained to feel a certain way, because of how he was booked in WCW, as you alluded to. First impressions are hard to wipe away. But I guarantee you, if you let that go, and just watched the matches for what they were, you'd feel differently. I assure you.



I'm sorry, but anyone that values a ladder match featuring William Regal and Dave Taylor, over two of the most athletic wrestlers of our time, and one being the master of the ladder match, I seriously have to wonder what kind of reality altering drug they're on. Whatever it is, pass some on over to me, man.

Look, while the 2006 Armageddon match had great spots, there was absolutely no backstory. Just guys going out and jumping on ladders. The Shawn/Jericho ladder match was the crescendo of the best feud of 2008, and had so much added juice to it.

But, you know, I guess high spots are all a ladder match needs, right?



Then that's a booking problem, LJL, that's not a Jericho problem. But since you address it later, we'll come back to this point.



I'm going to hate myself for bringing this up...

I loved his feud with Shelton Benjamin over the IC Title. Yes, I said it. But it was all Jericho building up that feud. Also, I enjoyed the feud with Chyna. No story? That feud had all the makings of a brilliant story. Calling them co-champions actually worked, which was a shock for me, as I thought it was destined to fail. Watching those two save one another, only to backstab the other when they could was hilarious television.

Also, you don't think his wars with Chris Benoit weren't entertaining? Now I'm really interested in whatever you're smoking over there?



Well, in all fairness, Ric Flair and Harley Race could have gone out there, in their primes, had a five star match, and it wouldn't have mattered. You're completely overlooking how historical Hogan/Rock was. It'll probably be the last generational Icon match we will ever see, and made everything else on that show obselete. You can't fault Jericho for being below one of the most historic matches in WWE history.



.... How should I put this kindly?

Ah, fuck it..... No Shit.

First, and this is completely separate from the argument, but it's absolute bullshit that Triple H was going to be named the first undisputed champion. When you had Steve Austin and The Rock still on payroll, who are symbols of the the WWE still today, and they aren't given the chance to run with the first Undisputed WWE Championship, that is absolute bullshit, and complete politicking on the part of HHH.

Second, again, everyone knows Triple H was supposed to be the first Undisputed WWE Champion. That's not a shock. Still, the WWE had Jericho go over the Rock and Austin, because they knew he was the absolute best choice



Now in all fairness, that has nothing to do with Jericho. He was having a fine reign, the WWE felt they needed their top star outside the WWE to have the belt, to hotshot ratings. The ratings for Jericho were actually up, compared to former champions. It was the WWE's decision to place John Cena there, and I doubt the WWE had plans to make Jericho a "transitional champ"



A. So would I, as well. Blame the WWE's booking.

B. If you haven't yet, I promise you, you're not looking hard enough. That, or you just are absolutely blind to the outstanding work Jericho has put in the past, and is putting in now.

The ladder match would have been just as good with MNM and Londrick only but having the Hardy Boyz was an added bonus as well. I just felt the 2008 ladder match wasn't as good as their previous match that year. I don't blame their decision to put the belt on Cena on Jericho. I guess in 2002 they wanted to have HHH come back and be the first undisputed champion and that hurt Jericho a lot.

The only part of your post that stuck under my craw is "the master of the ladder match" statement. I don't see any way shape in form that HBK is the master of the ladder match. How many has he competed in and how many he has won again? The master of the ladder match distinction should go to either Hardy or Edge and should be placed nowhere near HBK. Just had to get that out of the way.

 

[GrkVenom]

LJL, I think you do have a point with the Main Event issue, but I think that it's because there aren't that many good technical wrestlers in the main event picture now as in the past, Batista & Cena come to mind, which contributes to the fact that he has better matches at the mid card level, other than HBK, Undertaker, and Orton. But in my opinion it doesn't matter who he is in a match with as he makes everybody look good. I think Jericho, along with Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio, will end up going down in history as the first guys to show that a cruiserweight can make it to the top and be a believable champion. Jericho is like an early Bret Hart, even though guys like Hogan and Ultimate Warrior were getting the belt it was Bret Hart who was getting the biggest pops for his matches, much like Jericho is doing and has done. A big misconception that I find is that people associate championships with success which shouldn't be the case because even though the championship goes to the guy that's supposed to carry the company, that has really gone down the drain in this day in age, i.e. Cena. Cena has the title because he has to have the title to stay relevant and because he sells the most merchandise since the kids love him. Does anyone remember any of the feuds that Cena had where he didn't have the belt and the match was still interesting? Where as Jericho, like Angle in a sense, is a guy that doesn't need the belt. He elevates anyone that is in a feud with him, period.

 

[Digglelicious]

I don't know why people get on here gushing over his mic skills. Yeah Jericho can talk good, but he's not the cat's pajamas like he's made out to be. Sure he knows big words and is really good at calling people "parasites". Maybe if he would tone it down a notch he could remember what he was going to say. Instead of trying to verbally abuse and confuse the audience he confuses himself. I guess I'm the only one who can hear him stutter like Simple Jack, take long pauses, and make up words on the spot.

 

[X]

I don't know why people get on here gushing over his mic skills. Yeah Jericho can talk good, but he's not the cat's pajamas like he's made out to be. Sure he knows big words and is really good at calling people "parasites". Maybe if he would tone it down a notch he could remember what he was going to say. Instead of trying to verbally abuse and confuse the audience he confuses himself. I guess I'm the only one who can hear him stutter like Simple Jack, take long pauses, and make up words on the spot.

Have you seen any of Jericho's old promos from his heyday man? Look at his work from 2000 when he was calling Stephanie a "trash bag ho", sure it's sophomoric but the promos he used to cut were among the funniest and most energetic I've ever seen in this business.

Plus, he gave us this, which is a candidate for the greatest promo ever:

 

[jmt225]

I'd have to say, I'm a MUCH bigger fan of the Jericho that focused on his in-ring work (Lionheart), rather than the Jericho of today, whose main focus are dull 20 minute promos.

Yes, Jericho knows how to talk on that microphone, but he just doesn't interest me anymore. Even before his "retirement" or whatever that was in 2005, he was still pretty damn dull on the mic. I don't know what it is, but the guy just bores me and when he's trying to be comedic, I never laugh.

But man, the OLD Chris Jericho, motherfucking Lionheart, hands down one of the greatest in-ring performers I've ever witnessed. His work in Japan, ECW, and WCW will always keep me a fan of his, no matter how ridiculously lame he has been in WWE. Now, I'm not saying he hasn't had his moments in WWE, because he most definitely has, but I'm just saying... I'll take Lionheart Chris Jericho over Y2J any day of the fucking week. And I know Jericho still has some of that Lionheart in him, just waiting to come out. His match with Lance Storm at One Night Stand (which I thought was simply incredible and one of the most underrated matches this decade) proved that for a fact.

Anyway, to answer the question... when I look at Chris Jericho's full body of work, meaning from the start of his career to where he is today, he is most definitely one of the greatest of all time, in my book. However, today... while I know the man can still go (look at his recent stuff against Mysterio), I do not like what Jericho gives me week in and week out, like I did in the past. The bottom line to me is that right now, he's not the best wrestler in WWE (Punk is), and since so many people thinks he is, then yes... that makes him overrated to a point, in my mind. However, when looking at his entire career, I would say Jericho is underrated by most, since most have no clue where to find Jericho's best work, which is a shame if you ask me.

 

[Tenta]

I'd have to say, I'm a MUCH bigger fan of the Jericho that focused on his in-ring work (Lionheart), rather than the Jericho of today, whose main focus are dull 20 minute promos.

Now, are we talking the same Lionheart, pre-1998, or whenever he turned heel?

Yes, Jericho knows how to talk on that microphone, but he just doesn't interest me anymore. Even before his "retirement" or whatever that was in 2005, he was still pretty damn dull on the mic. I don't know what it is, but the guy just bores me and when he's trying to be comedic, I never laugh.

Now, this part of the argument, I get, somewhat. The fact is, he's playing a character that's supposed to be dull. He's a character that no longer will pander to the fans, as they've turned their back on him. He doesn't have to be entertaining, and spit out a joke a minute. The dullness, I think, is his choice, and it still works.

But man, the OLD Chris Jericho, motherfucking Lionheart, hands down one of the greatest in-ring performers I've ever witnessed. His work in Japan, ECW, and WCW will always keep me a fan of his, no matter how ridiculously lame he has been in WWE.

JMT, I remember that my first experience of Chris Jericho was in the Super J Cup, in which he lost a fantastic match to Chris Benoit. I know where you're going with your argument.

Unfortunately, we have to accept that Lionheart Chris Jericho just wasn't possible in an American promotion, such as the WWE or WCW. It could've worked in ECW, but I promise you, he would have needed to stay at the mid card for a while. The fact is, Lionheart Chris Jericho's promo skills were atrocious. I remember watching him cut a promo in WCW as Lionheart... It was pretty bad. What's worse, he was working with Syxx, and it became very apparent how much these two just didn't have it on the mic.

As much as we like Jericho, we have to accept that he made a necessary change to his personality, in order to get over. After all, we want this man to reach his pinnacle, for all the joy he has brought us. I can't fault him for switching from his Lionheart roots. It was a necessity.

Now, I'm not saying he hasn't had his moments in WWE, because he most definitely has, but I'm just saying... I'll take Lionheart Chris Jericho over Y2J any day of the fucking week. And I know Jericho still has some of that Lionheart in him, just waiting to come out. His match with Lance Storm at One Night Stand (which I thought was simply incredible and one of the most underrated matches this decade) proved that for a fact.

Now, this would be a pretty interesting combination... The arrogant Y2J, mixed with Lionheart's wrestling skills.

Unfortunately, JMT, it won't happen, because Vince won't allow it. Jericho is going to have to work under what Vince believes is an effective match. Otherwise, he's going to simply rot away in mid card purgatory.

Anyway, to answer the question... when I look at Chris Jericho's full body of work, meaning from the start of his career to where he is today, he is most definitely one of the greatest of all time, in my book. However, today... while I know the man can still go (look at his recent stuff against Mysterio), I do not like what Jericho gives me week in and week out, like I did in the past. The bottom line to me is that right now, he's not the best wrestler in WWE (Punk is), and since so many people thinks he is, then yes... that makes him overrated to a point, in my mind. However, when looking at his entire career, I would say Jericho is underrated by most, since most have no clue where to find Jericho's best work, which is a shame if you ask me.

I agree, that his best in ring work came in Japan. You'll get no argument there. As I hope that you agree the best combination of Jericho arose in 1998, when he turned heel. That is the best of Chris Jericho.

However, his character is what it is, and he has to work under those parameters. Can't fault the guy for that.