Calgary Region, Detroit Subregion: Second Round: (8) Randy Orton vs. (9) CM Punk

[ABMorales787]

Kayfabe, which is clearly what I'm doing here, Warrior is head and shoulders above Cena when it comes to this scenario.

That's a joke, right?

Triple H could and did beat Beniot on a few occasions.

But never in 2004 or beyond. Hell on the Smackdown after Eddie died, Benoit beat Triple H in the most casual way ever.

You're right, I totally forgot to give any other kind of reason so I'm shit out of luck huh? Oh wait...

I totally did have another argument. Nevermind.

I said clean wins. The most successful person Punk has a clean win over is Jeff Hardy. This is irrelevant.

I fail to see why they have to be clean. Last I checked the rules state wrestlers can play dirty. I still see some rather Ultimate Warriorish excuses here. Nobody ever pinned him clean. Should he win over better guys because of who he pinned clean?

Maybe that's the way you see it, but not I. Personal criteria is pretty irrefutable no?

Yeah. It's a bitch.

Not the way I see it. Punk has no clean wins over any really credible stars, while Orton has a clean win over the biggest star in the world. Orton wins.

Again with the clean wins. Anything else?

 

[Nate DaMac]

That's a joke, right?

Uh, no. Using this method Warrior>Cena. I don't think Warrior was ever beaten clean is his career while Cena has. What's so hard to figure out here? I'm not saying I'd vote for Warrior over Cena, I use whaever criteria I want for each match.

But never in 2004 or beyond. Hell on the Smackdown after Eddie died, Benoit beat Triple H in the most casual way ever.

Chavo also went over JBL. That would never happen again.

I fail to see why they have to be clean. Last I checked the rules state wrestlers can play dirty. I still see some rather Ultimate Warriorish excuses here. Nobody ever pinned him clean. Should he win over better guys because of who he pinned clean?



Yeah. It's a bitch.


Again with the clean wins. Anything else?

Dude, it's just the way I'm choosing to vote on this match. I just took Hennig over Mysterio based on hairstyle and Steamboat over Dusty because I hate Dusty's commentary. For whatever reason, this is what popped into my head upon seeing this match so that's what I'm going on here. What's so hard to understand about that?

But yes, I did provide another reason by the way, star power. Orton is undeniably the bigger star in whatever way you try to compare them.

 

[LigerBomb]

Punk gets my vote. Like Jglass, I've never really enjoyed Randy's style. Punk on the other hand has been entertaining me since his ROH days. Hands down I prefer and appreciate Punk's work and contributions to the profession more.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Wow, hottest debated bout I've seen thus far!

I'm going with Punk because, simply, I think he deserves it.

Punk has had to earn his spot. Firstly he had to work the lower indies, before progressing to ROH were he earned a rep that meant that when he progressed through OVW to the main stage he was noticeably cheered despite being an indie nobody who'd only fought in gymnasiums.

In his time in WWe he has overcome bias from higher ups who think he is undeserving and, some would say, self created problems from (basically) being CM Punk - someone very willing to blow his own horn.

Despite all this and occasional drops down the card, he is still a potential world champ at any moment and the go to guy to freshen up the shine on the top guys - just look at his current run with Randy or his previous program with Cena.


Randy got his start through being 'Cowboy' Bob's son and struck gold in being taken under the wing of Triple H and learning also from 'Naitch'. He really rode his luck in his early career keeping his job despite being, well, a prick. However, as in all greats, this was built into the 'Legend Killer' gimmick and worked well. Up until his recent face turn, he was regarded as a go to guy if an effective heel Champ was needed (similar to Edge on SD).

I'm a fan of heel Orton but I'm non plussed on his face role. I believe the character already needs tweaking because the only reason I know he's a face is that he now battles heels.


Punk is better in the ring, Randy has had to many *blah* matches against Trips and Cena. Randy would definitely have the edge in this match if it was booked by WWe, but this is OUR tournament and we can put the guy without the golden spoon (nepotism) over, which is what I'm doing.


I've seen replies in this section discounting Punks time outside of the WWe and this saddens me. If he had started in OVW, who knows what his gimmick would have been - a boring modern Raven perhaps. Chances are he'd have been future endeavoured long ago.

Randy got his start because of who he was and got to avoid paying dues. Where most would have gotten fired for his backstage antics, he got pushed all the harder.


Better performer, more charisma and (let's be honest) more over - Punk everytime for me.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Another bullshit statement from Finlay but then again, I'm not surprised. So Punk is better because he earned his spot? Two and a half years in, Punk was already a Triple Crown champion and an ECW champion so let's not act Punk was a curtain jerker. Plenty of wrestlers were like Orton and haven't had the success he's had.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Another bullshit statement from Finlay but then again, I'm not surprised. So Punk is better because he earned his spot? Two and a half years in, Punk was already a Triple Crown champion and an ECW champion so let's not act Punk was a curtain jerker. Plenty of wrestlers were like Orton and haven't had the success he's had.

Nice considered reply! Punk is better... nope, that's the end of the statement. Orton is a monotone non de-script son of a mid carder most famous for having a cast. Nepotism got him his start, and his look combined with his friendship with the most influential wrestler on the roster got him by wellness policy and a penchant for bullying female employees. I prefer Punk as a performer, I prefer Punk as a person and I prefer that he paid his dues... as Noticeably F.A.T. has stated you can chose whoever you want for whatever reason you like. If you don't like my reasons, dispute them, don't come across as being the holy grail in wrestling opinion.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I lied about not posting again. Sue me

Let's check out the noted facts about our rather nicely built 'Mania match-up here.

Facts? After this, you go into nothing but giving your own opinion. Just needed to clear that up.

Better Heel: CM Punk

In your opinion

His character is diverse, unique, realistic and easy to hate. He doesn't have to rely on inexistent mental conditions being an arrogant pretty boy or beat down Hall of Famers to get the crowd hating on him. Randy does.

You're right. Punk had to rely on a stable filled with zombies who followed his every command. I'll be honest in saying I have absolutely no idea how anything you said hurts Orton. He was booked to have a mental condition. It worked. He main evented WrestleMania, in part, because of that condition angle.

Better Face: CM Punk

In your opinion

Orton may be one of the most over faces in WWE today, but he ain't no role model.

Is "being a role model" necessary for baby face wrestlers? I think Austin and The Rock did just fine while most definitely not being role models.

Not to mention how dull he can be most of the time in the ring being all "methodical".

"Boring" is completely subjective. This is the criticism of Orton that bothers me most. He's boring. If I thought he was boring, I wouldn't cheer for him. If 99.8% of the fans around the world thought he was a bore, they wouldn't be cheering the shit out of him.

He wrestles an old-school style. It's slow, it's methodical, and obviously, it works. I understand newer fans have a problem with any match that doesn't go 600 MPH, but come on.

Punk on the other hand is a role model by default with his Straight Edge stuff.

Agreed. It's good for the kids to see someone who isn't high all the time, and doesn't drink. However, I'm not seeing how that makes Randy Orton any less talented and over.

Better Wrestler: CM Punk

...In your opinion

Most of Randy's offense are stomps. That, the IEDDT, more stomps, his Choke Backbreaker, stomps. A Snap Powerslam, more stomps. Stomps the ground with his hands, RKO and well more stomps if that doesn't work.

Each wrestler has a set of moves he/she executes. Especially babyface wrestlers at the top of the card. Obviously, given how over he is, the set is working. Every move he does is very well executed, and looks painful. I understand he's not hopping around in there like a jackrabbit, and that bothers some smarks out there, but that style appeals to some, including myself.

Better on Mic: CM Punk

Let's face it. Most of the time, Randy sounds like Judge Dredd. Monotonic for the most part and then he gets angry. Not much diversity there. But CM Punk is very vocal and can always deliver rock solid promo's using great psychology.

Seeing how Orton has been given absolute shit to work with in the past year, I don't think we can judge his mic skills from that time frame. During his run with Legacy, especially around his return in September of 2008, I thought his mic work was great. I wasn't a big fan of his before this, and this period of time made me take notice. He carried this through his feud with Jeff Hardy, Chris Jericho and HHH. I cannot believe people so quickly forget the great promo's he cut during his feud with HHH going into WrestleMania 25. Short memory, or the IWC hates anyone who turns babyface. Hmmm.

Randy might win at Wrestlemania because he's the face, but in here, Punk wins every single time.

I don't have an issue with Punk winning this match (in this tournament). Punk is great, and deserves to go as far as he can. I just cannot stand all the bullshit Orton gets, when I know for a fact he wasn't getting this much crap before the fans turned him babyface. It's annoying, and I think people who haven't made up their minds need to hear both sides.

Jesus Christ you are one condescending bastard.

I suppose I am guilty of this from time to time. My apologies.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Nice considered reply! Punk is better... nope, that's the end of the statement. Orton is a monotone non de-script son of a mid carder most famous for having a cast. Nepotism got him his start, and his look combined with his friendship with the most influential wrestler on the roster got him by wellness policy and a penchant for bullying female employees. I prefer Punk as a performer, I prefer Punk as a person and I prefer that he paid his dues... as Noticeably F.A.T. has stated you can chose whoever you want for whatever reason you like. If you don't like my reasons, dispute them, don't come across as being the holy grail in wrestling opinion.

Backstage politics have been going on ages so don't try to paint Orton as the only one. I don't gave a damn about who his daddy was. Also, there were others who weren't suspended as well. You probably forgot about his suspension in 2006. I prefer someone who hasn't bored me as a face and a heel. I'll take heel or face Orton every day of the week.

 

[JGlass]

Another bullshit statement from Finlay but then again, I'm not surprised. So Punk is better because he earned his spot?

I can't speak for Finlay, but I would not say CM Punk is better because he earned his spot, but it is certainly something that appeals to me in Punk. Like many of my favorite wrestlers, Punk worked the minor leagues for a long time until he got his spot in the bigs, and that's something I find very noble. You can't deny that Orton had his shot in the WWE handed to him on a silver plate, even if he did pick the ball up and run with it.

Two and a half years in, Punk was already a Triple Crown champion and an ECW champion so let's not act Punk was a curtain jerker.

Like I said earlier in this thread, that was probably the result of Punk bursting onto the scene in the WWE. He was immediately insanely over with the fans. At Survivor Series 06 he teamed with Dx and The Hardys to take on Team Rated-RKO, and they were chanting CM Punk's name before the match. True, it was in front of smarky crowd in Philly, but to out pop Shawn Michaels, Triple H, and the Hardy Boyz is no small feat for a rookie. I'd also attribute it to Punk being phenomenally talented.

Plenty of wrestlers were like Orton and haven't had the success he's had.

By like Orton I'm going to assume you mean second or third generation wrestlers, and this is true, but Orton got to the WWE so quickly because he had an in, and once you have the WWE giving you a character, helping you hone your style, and pairing you up with guys like Triple H and Ric Flair you can only flourish. CM Punk wasn't given the advantage of having a million-dollar writing staff makings stories for him and trying to get him over, he did that on his own through hard work and dedication.

 

[Tastycles]

I come into this one unsure. I wanted to see if there was a strong post to sway me either way, but nothing jumped off the page in that respect. So then I thought I'd have a guess at who would win at WrestleMania. But I couldn't really decide on that either. I think Orton has probably had the better career, but I'm not sure he'd win this. Punk as a heel has been booked pretty strongly and it could really go either way. With all that in mind, I just voted for my favourite, which is Punk. I'm not a fan to the degree some of you are, but I can't stand Orton. He's straight up boring and all the things people say about him are essentially just repetitions of what Michael Cole says, and if people thought about it, they'd realise that they are no more true than assertions that the ladder is 30 foot above the ring. I'm picking Punk, but it could legitimately go either way.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Backstage politics have been going on ages so don't try to paint Orton as the only one. I don't gave a damn about who his daddy was. Also, there were others who weren't suspended as well. You probably forgot about his suspension in 2006. I prefer someone who hasn't bored me as a face and a heel. I'll take heel or face Orton every day of the week.

And I fully respect that, there are many guys in this I'd put Randy over (both of his entrance themes have been ring tones on my phone - Voices is the current one). I prefer Punk though and a strong part of that is the reasons I highlighted. Politics is major and I put Hulk over Christian in that bout, so I don't discriminate purely on that, but I do take it into account. I can see the enjoyment of heel Orton, as Nick B stated his promo work with Trips in the WMXXV buildup was very good (although I found the resultant match less so). I have found his face run very disappointing, playing third fiddle in the Cena/ Nexus storyline was very , up until the current storyline and IMO that's because he's working with Punk.

 

[shattered dreams]

I like Punk and tend to be somewhat indifferent on Orton but this is a joke. An example of personal preference over common sense at its finest. At least this proves what we all know about the IWC.

 

[gd]

How exactly is it a joke that the majority of people are voting for the more entertaining, skilled, interesting, righteous, and well groomed wrestler? How does not voting for the plodding, uninteresting wrestler translate to a lack of common sense? The vote is rightly spaced out. In fact, the spacing should probably be greater.

 

[SavageTaker]

I voted for CM Punk simply because I think he's the better worker out of the two. There are only a handful of memorable matches that Randy Orton has had (let me point out that I haven't watched any wrestling show in the past few months so there might be a possibility that he's had more) that I've really enjoyed and was able to say "damn, that was a great match." On the other hand, there are way more CM Punk matches I've enjoyed throughout the last few years that have kept me in the edge of my seat.

Overall, Randy Orton is a boring character who I feel for the most part doesn't really add much to any show he's on (let me repeat one more time I haven't seen wrestling in a while so things could have changed). But CM Punk has proven time and time again that he is great at almost anything he does so that's why he gets my vote here.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

For all the people picking CM Punk, nobody has yet to answer the question how he can go over in a match like this when the two wrestlers are contemporaries and one is clearly the bigger star. And even though Randy has a few extra years on him, Randy did more in his first 5 years than Punk has done in his. I'm not a huge fan of either guy, but there's no denying who should go over as of now. Maybe one day Punk will surpass Orton, but he certainly hasn't done that yet.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I was hoping these 2 would both be able to advance in this tournament, both are more than worthy of advancing, and I couldn't argue either way as to which man deserves to go through.

I will have to come back to this one later today after I have a think and make a decision. I do think I am going to struggle to pick a side, I may have to not vote in this epic match up

 

[Uncle Sam]

I was sort of expecting to come in here and be met by a wall of defiant Orton nut-suckers to be honest. Don't know why, considering I was going to cite how much hatred I'd seen for Orton on the internet and what a complete 180 you all did. Looks like you all did a 360 instead. You guys just like to double-bluff me, huh? But yeah, Punk is decisively winning and should be decisively winning. Terrific.

I'm going to tell you an embarrassing secret. No, it isn't about my shrivelled penis. No, it isn't about my crack addition. No, it isn't even about that string of dead prostitutes I've left in shallow graves across Kent - though I'd appreciate it if you could keep that one close to your chest. No, my secret is this: I actually quite like Randy Orton. I've liked him since 2004. I liked him when he was having good matches (what the fuck happened, right?) with the likes of Chris Benoit and Mick Foley. He was even something of a guilty pleasure of mine when he turned face recently, boring and bland as I admit him to be.

Now I'm going to tell you something that won't surprise you. No, it's not that I have confusing feelings for Klunderbunker (though he has one hell of a grooming kit, doesn't he?). No, it's-- well, you see where I'm going with this. To mercifully cut the filler short, it's that I like CM Punk more than Randy Orton. Much more. Yeah, the guy with a CM Punk signature and a storied history of working Punk's shaft until it was bloody and sore likes CM Punk more than Randy Orton. Quelle surprise. Now, that should frankly be enough for a fictional tournament based upon no definite criteria. If you don't think it is, something something my left nut.

But if that's not enough for you, stop doing whatever you were doing to my left nut and listen up. These are two people where there is no kayfabe pattern to work off. The best we have to work off of is their encounter in the Elimination Chamber, where Orton beat Punk after he got trapped in his pod and then Punk beat Orton after he got kicked in the head. So, yeah, indecisive. Therefore, we can default back to picking the one who's not total gash. Unorthodox, I know.

Orton's got a lengthier list on Wikipedia, as some of you have heartily been pointing out. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is quite a concise source and unhelpfully doesn't specify "but, honestly, it was pretty shit" after every accomplishment. Yeah, he's the youngest world champion in WWE history - but, honestly, it was pretty shit. Yeah, he main evented WrestleMania - but, honestly, it was pretty shit. Etcetera, etcetera.

CM Punk, on the other hand, has a much shorter list and, if you had asperger's syndrome, that might make you think he's not as good as Randy Orton and, ergo, not deserving of a win here. But you don't have asperger's syndrome, do you? You've watched WWE for the last three years and you've seen what's plain to see. And what's plain to see is that CM Punk is the absolute shit. Despite what some may say, he's had great matches, including some overlooked gems. I mean, how people can question his status as far and away the best promo man in the business befuddles me. It befuddles me to the point that I have to find a synonym for confused, because confused just doesn't cut it.

Whereas Randy Orton has been handed a nuclear arsenal and not even had the decency to start a Cold War, CM Punk's had nothing to hold but a sparkler and his johnson, yet he's successfully invaded Russia. So to speak.

 

[Coco]

For all the people picking CM Punk, nobody has yet to answer the question how he can go over in a match like this when the two wrestlers are contemporaries and one is clearly the bigger star.

It seems to me that someone missed Punk going over John Cena multiple times over the last three months. That's how Punk goes over higher profile contemporaries. That or the way he did against Rey Mysterio at Extreme Rules last year. Or Undertaker at Breaking Point 2009. Or Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam 2009. You talk like Punk has never gone over contemporaries who are clearly higher than him on the pecking order. Newsflash: That assumption is wrong. Reality puts us at a kayfabe stalemate. So it comes down to quality of tattoos for me. And when we're in that court, Punk takes this in a New York minute. Orton's got himself some pretty bland ink from early in his career covered up by lame Gothic skulls. A little too subdued and uniform to counter the variety of awesome that Punk has going on, including a Cobra tattoo, a Pepsi tattoo, his brick wall tattoo, his wrench tattoo, and the only full chest tattoo in the WWE. The man gets away with some seriously splendid stuff from an appearance standpoint and it's far bolder than Orton could have hope to be. Couple his bold tattoos with his experimentation with body hair and the heel beard and we have us a winner.

Vote Punk.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Right, I have been thinking about this while I am at work (avoiding doing very much work at all truth be told, fuck it I am leaving in 3 weeks anyway!), and I have to lean just a smidgen towards CM Punk.

If you asked me to compare the 2004 Orton with todays Punk, I would give it to Randall, but I am not as entertained by Orton as I was back then. Is is the shaven head? The shitty sleeve tattoos? (No Punk has even worse tattoos)..I dont know...Orton is just more boring now that he was a few years ago.

Where is the arrogant posing on the turnbuckle? Where is the awesome sparks falling at the top of the ramp? I understand that this fits into his cold-blooded emotionless character, but that is the whole point- he is EMOTIONLESS now. That is not what a wrestler is supposed to be, especially one who is meant to be a good guy (kicking people in the head makes you good now apparently?!). Orton is by far better as a heel, he is a born bad guy. There is something really unlikeable about him.

Punk on the other hand, continues to impress me. There are very few, if any, better talkers than CM in the business today and his in-ring work is of a very high standard. I do not like the GTS, it doesnt excite me but he has a unique, varied moveset and his gimmick is one of the most interesting in the business right now, always has been to be honest.

I would like to see WWE make more of Punk, he should be a consistent main eventer, and with Nexus as his lackeys, I would like to see a heel Punk take the win at WM and go on to bigger things once again, as I hope he does in this tournament.

Vote Punk

 

[Hulkamaniac]

It seems to me that someone missed Punk going over John Cena multiple times over the last three months. That's how Punk goes over higher profile contemporaries. That or the way he did against Rey Mysterio at Extreme Rules last year. Or Undertaker at Breaking Point 2009. Or Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam 2009. You talk like Punk has never gone over contemporaries who are clearly higher than him on the pecking order. Newsflash: That assumption is wrong. Reality puts us at a kayfabe stalemate. So it comes down to quality of tattoos for me. And when we're in that court, Punk takes this in a New York minute. Orton's got himself some pretty bland ink from early in his career covered up by lame Gothic skulls. A little too subdued and uniform to counter the variety of awesome that Punk has going on, including a Cobra tattoo, a Pepsi tattoo, his brick wall tattoo, his wrench tattoo, and the only full chest tattoo in the WWE. The man gets away with some seriously splendid stuff from an appearance standpoint and it's far bolder than Orton could have hope to be. Couple his bold tattoos with his experimentation with body hair and the heel beard and we have us a winner.

Vote Punk.

CM Punk wins the odd match here or there over people in the midst of feuds, but the only feud he won was over Hardy who was leaving the company. These matches aren't the "one match out of 20", these are generally regarded as who would win if the two had a feud. Randy Orton would go over in a feud with CM Punk. Punk might win a match here or there, because he has to otherwise who cares about the feud. But in the end, Randy Orton would come out on top.

 

[Long Island Iced D]

Wow this was terrible lol. We can see at WM who the real winner is but im suprised CM Punk won by so much. Sucks Ortons leaving early.