Botches.

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I'm hearing this term tossed around the forums a lot lately. It is apparently something that is considered to be a cardinal sin by the smart fans. Even Sin Cara and CM Punk, two huge smark favorites do not seem to be immune to this criticism and some fans have gone to the extent of saying that these two guys basically suck in the ring because they botch.

I could talk about how pro wrestling is basically like a dance wherein the responsibility of executing a manouvre successfully depends on both the performer of that move as well as the guy who recieves that move. But that is not what I want to talk about.

What I want to talk about is who the fuck cares? Sin Cara(Mistico) is supposed to be Mr Botch-a-Mania himself and on top of that he does not seem to possess the ability to tell stories either. Well, that hasn't exactly stopped him from getting over with the fans in attendance has it? So how does these 'qualities' make him a bad wrestler? CM Punk has supposedly botched the GTS in an obscure match versus Kane on Smackdown in 2010 and again in his marathon match( by WWE standards against Cena). If you talked about this to a mark, they would probably think you've gone loony. I can remember Cena taking the Spear on his ass rather than his back a number of times but that does not stop everyone in attendance from thinking that he has been broken into half.

We are the smark fans. We are supposed to know how pro wrestling works and appreciaate it more because we are supposed to understand that it is a difficult art. Yet, I feel it is the marks who are the more responsible fans. That is because they behave like fans rather than guys who are waiting for a pro wrestler to make a mistake so that they can pounce on it.

Also, I find it baffling that in a day in which more and more smarks believe that a guy who gets the over is a good wrestler, the same ones are the first to jump on the back of a guy who is getting over but supposedly botching and not telling a story in the ring.

In the overall context of wrestling, botches do not matter much. Jeff Hardy and RVD have become World Champions and that should tell you something.

 

[LegendKiller_RKO]

I completely agree 100%. It's LIVE people. Performers make mistakes. It's part of live performances. Even though Smackdown isn't live it's still filmed in front of a live audience. It's not like it's filmed on a set and they can re-shoot the scene until it's perfect. I notice the botches occasionally but there usually so miniscule that it's not even worth talking about. Obviously we would all love to see a perfect match every time, but it just doesn't happen. P.S On a side note I would have to disagree that Sin Cara is over with the so called "smarks". I see more people on this site rip into Cara as opposed to commend him. Anyways good thread.

 

[Dagger Dias]

People who complain about a few little botches here and there need to calm down. Everyone makes mistakes, including wrestlers. Granted there are some cases where people make so many botches that they end up having terrible matches all the time.... but if someone makes a small mistake then the people who complain about it need to find something more relevant to complain about because mistakes happen and wrestlers cannot give a perfect performance each time. When people whine about botches, I usually roll my eyes and ignore it. So the guy messed up. Big deal. Stop worrying about it and enjoy the match. Some people honestly make it a point to search for things to complain about, and a lot of the botch complaints stem from that.

 

[Rayne]

We can thank Botchamania for this. Like many ideas, it started as a stroke of brilliance which was hilarious to start. Now, everyone and their mother has jumped on the bandwagon, and everything down to a half-second stutter or repeated word in a promo is a "botch". It's the latest rise of the smark who thinks they're a smart- pointing out the little mistakes to demonstrate that they're "in the know".

Some botches are worth mentioning. Sean Waltman exposing Ric Flair's ass on WCW Monday Nitro is one of my all time favorites. Many fans remember "The Jackie Gayda Match". Sandman being concussed and forgetting to stay down until 10 after Cactus Jack accidentally brained him with a cast iron pan is something I still show non-pro-wrestling fans and can be assured of hearty laughs. We ALL remember Booker T calling Hulk Hogan a ****** in a promo. But many "botches" these days are just plain ******ed.

Laugh at the truly great fuckups. Pointing out the little ones just makes you look like an ill informed douchebag.

 

[Mustang Sally]

We are supposed to know how pro wrestling works and appreciaate it more because we are supposed to understand that it is a difficult art.

Agreed. In fact, a botch here and there probably affects perception of the product in a positive way. If every move was executed perfectly, it would occur to the casual wrestling fan that what they're doing in the ring is easy. The botches provide contrast and should make fans appreciate even more the moves that are done well.

We've already read that botches drive Vince McMahon into a rage. I don't know if it's true or not, but I hope not. More than anyone, he should appreciate how tough it is to do what his employees are trying to do. I mean, c'mon. These performers are doing it live in front of an audience of thousands. It's a physical endeavor, not just a matter of memorizing lines in a play, although wrestlers are often called on to do that, too. If Vince insists on choreographing every move in a match rather than letting wrestlers just work, there are going to be some miscues.

Vince should realize and accept it.....and so should we fans.

 

[The Future Rises]

I'm gonna go ahead and state out the only thing that Ashley Massaro has said that's worth listening to.. How do you expect them not to botch while they're busting their ass over 300 days a year wrestling on live events, not getting enough sleep, and always being on the road? Common you can't blame them.

But I've noticed that some guys are so good at what they do that they rarely botch. Just look at Daniel Bryan and Dolph Ziggler. They rarely botched a move in their WWE career and when they were part of a botched move it wasn't their fault.

But you still can't blame all the wrestlers for botching. You can't be perfect all the time. Some people need to cut them some slack and respect them for what they do and that's entertaining us by putting on incredible matches.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Most botches aren't botches. I read somewhere, someone said "Swagger botched the gutwrench on Riley". No he didn't, it took him a few tries, but that's because of how big Riley is, it added to the story of a match.

Most botches are just slips. You know, the same shit that happens in "real" MMA fights. I don't consider those botches. Those are only botches when the guy doesn't sell the slip and just resets the spot and makes everything look fake as fuck.

The other kinds of botches, that I actually consider botches, are when like a guy goes for a kick, totally whiffs, and the guy sells it anyways.

Basically a botch to me is something that doesn't look natural in a fight.

That's part of why I hate it when a lot of IWC people think guys who do moves super fast and crisp are good. Pro Wrestling is supposed to be a struggle, if you do a bunch of quick technical shit, it looks fake. Bryan Danielson in ROH slowed things down and it looked better and people got into it.

I think it's all part of the "storytelling" that I talk about. If it's Mysterio vs Bourne, and they're flying around, and Mysterio slips and falls on his ass. Is that a botch? Or does it make a lot of sense that the older "lion" flyer can't keep up? It's story. Whiffing on a kick and the other guy selling, or slipping and then not selling it and setting the spot back up takes the audience out of the match and out of the story. That's the botch.

I mean shit, Punk pretty much "botched" the cross body on Cena at MITB, landing on Cena's knees which is really dangerous. What'd they do? Cena sold the leg and Punk worked the leg and Cena protected the leg. Was that planned? Maybe, maybe not, but they mixed it in there. It wasn't really a botch and no one really noticed it because it actually added to the match.

 

[AngryCenaFan]

"botches" are just things for stupid smark fans to nitpick at, it's not a fucking movie, not everything will always be perfect, sometimes it makes the match better because it looks like the move hurts more

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Of course there will be botches in wrestling matches. The performers are not perfect, same as in any form of entertainment or sport. Do you think Robert De Niro gives a 1st class performance the first time without any mistakes when he is being filmed for as scene? No. He will do a retake and attempt to improve on his first go and iron out any mistakes until its perfect.

Wrestler's do not have that luxury. They are required to put on a world class show every night infront of live fans without the opportunity to practice in some cases, sometimes calling the match when they are out there. They are having to do their moves live and with no chance of redoing them if they mess up. The pressure they are under is immense, knowing how much Vince McMahon hates botches, and lets be honest...it's alot harder to do a wrestling match (where you need to rely on another person, lift them up, perform complicated and dangerous moves), than it is to read a few lines on a movie set.

Wrestlers are just like any other performers. They make mistakes. They are human. Look at professional football/soccer. The best players in the world occasionally miss an easy chance, put a crucial penalty over the bar or let in a shot that they should have easily saved. It's just human error, and it happens.

The better wrestlers botch less, just as the better sportsmen make fewer mistakes than those less talented ones, and just as the best actors require fewer takes to get their lines right. It can be irritating to see a clear botch, but these guys try and think on their feet and overcome up it before a live audience, so I think they do a pretty damm good job.