Austin vs Rock at WM2000?

[Emmet]

I recently subscribed to the PWTorch and I've been reading back through their old newsletters from different years, at the minute I'm near the tail-end of 1999.

The current one I'm reading about is Austin having to take time off due to the trouble with his neck, it says in the newsletter that Austin had in previous months feared he was becoming stale and Rock was now starting to overtake him as the fans no.1.

According to the newsletter Vince and co had plans from the summer of '99 to turn Austin heel, take the WWF title from Triple H at the 2000 Royal Rumble, then drop the strap to Rock in the ME at Wrestlemania 2000 in a symbolic passing of the torch.

My questions is this:

Would an Austin heel turn have worked at that time instead of when he did turn heel in 2001? Given than The Rock would have actually been around in 2000 as top babyface, unlike when he left the RAW after WM 17, his heel turn might have indeed worked in 2000.

Where would HHH have ended up in this scenario? Does he have his monster year in 2000 if Austin is around and the no.1 heel? Triple H in 2000 was arguably the best wrestler on the planet in Austin's absence. What becomes of him?

Any opinions on this folks?

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

I recently subscribed to the PWTorch and I've been reading back through their old newsletters from different years, at the minute I'm near the tail-end of 1999.

The current one I'm reading about is Austin having to take time off due to the trouble with his neck, it says in the newsletter that Austin had in previous months feared he was becoming stale and Rock was now starting to overtake him as the fans no.1.

According to the newsletter Vince and co had plans from the summer of '99 to turn Austin heel, take the WWF title from Triple H at the 2000 Royal Rumble, then drop the strap to Rock in the ME at Wrestlemania 2000 in a symbolic passing of the torch.

My questions is this:

Would an Austin heel turn have worked at that time instead of when he did turn heel in 2001? Given than The Rock would have actually been around in 2000 as top babyface, unlike when he left the RAW after WM 17, his heel turn might have indeed worked in 2000.

Where would HHH have ended up in this scenario? Does he have his monster year in 2000 if Austin is around and the no.1 heel? Triple H in 2000 was arguably the best wrestler on the planet in Austin's absence. What becomes of him?

Any opinions on this folks?

In 2000, Triple H was the best wrestler on the planet? Nope. Don't think so.

Although HHH had the best matches that year but 2000 no doubt belonged to The Rock.


I think "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's heel turn might've worked at that time as a lot of people considered Austin overrated at that time and he was beyond stale however I don't think it would've worked if they did it the way they did in 2001.

The biggest problem with Austin's heel turn was that it was the exact same thing for Stone Cold, it was the exact same gimmick but instead of beating faces, he was beating heels.

He needed to go corporate like Rock did in 98 but the problem is it would've damaged his gimmick so the whole heel run was a flop.


I think Triple H would've got his big run eventually, maybe he wouldn't have main evented WM2000 but he would probably be facing a guy like Taker.

 

[James]

HHH would've been nothing had HBK, The Rock, and Austin took time off.

HHH is the same as Jay-Z, if Pac and Biggie didn't die he would just be another rapper.

But yeah the rock vs. Austin at wm 2000 would have been perfect but I don't think the Austin turn would've had much backlash as it did when it really happened.

 

[wrestler36]

Austin heel turn would never had worked. I just listened to JR's podcast and that was his biggest regret. If you think turning him heel was a good idea because he was 'stale,' his said himself house shows, ratings and PPV numbers dropped because of it. It's the same reason why they don't turn Cena heel. There is a vocal group that disapproves of him, but in the end, he's the moneymaker for the company.

 

[TheImpactPlayer]

I actually think it would have been better than the 2001 heel turn for a few reasons. At that time the Austin VS McMahon feud was still relevant. If Austin had joined McMahon at that point in time I think it would have been more shocking. When Austin turned in 2001 they had purposely let Austin and McMahon keep there distance from each other from Austin's initial return until Mania I guess to make it more surprising. But I think it would have been more surprising in 99. Also, when he turned heel in 2001 he had been gone that previous year. The people were ready for another face run due to Austin being gone for so long. Also, in the 2001 turn Rock was leaving. Austin had to basically turn heel but still stay in a merchandise heel mode and not go full heel. If this had been done in 99 Rock was still climbing to that top spot and this would have allowed Austin to go deeper into heel turn. In 2001 Austin didn't really have a big face to carry the company the way The Rock could have. IMO 99 would have been a more appropriate time for the turn than 2001.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

Austin heel turn would never had worked. I just listened to JR's podcast and that was his biggest regret. If you think turning him heel was a good idea because he was 'stale,' his said himself house shows, ratings and PPV numbers dropped because of it. It's the same reason why they don't turn Cena heel. There is a vocal group that disapproves of him, but in the end, he's the moneymaker for the company.

Austin really is a crazy egomaniac if he truly said that. The reason ratings, ppv buyrates... went down because the face of the company The Rock left for four months.

Not because of Austin turning heel.

 

[Rocky84]

I always love hearing about what they were going to do and were thinking about. It gives you more insight on how the company actually viewed it's top talent. Like in this case it's clear they had more appreciation for the Rock than I thought. Also goes to show that if Mania 17 wasn't held in Texas, then Rock would've more than likely won. Just sucked that they booked the arena so much in advance before storylines were made. Maybe if they knew they couldn't do Rock vs Austin at Mania 16 they wouldn't have chose Texas? I dunno.

Regardless, 1999-2002 Rock was #1...sucks he was screwed over in Mania 16 & 17 matches by Vince. Weird.

I think HHH benefited greatly from Austin being gone...pretty obvious, but had Stone Cold and Undertaker never left, I have no idea where HHH would've been. Although, he was still top 4 at Mania 17 and I think they'd still have room for him to grow. They would've just had Rock or Austin work with other guys while they built HHH up with one of them like they did. Maybe could've seen Austin vs Biker Undertaker in a lengthy program while HHH and Rock feuded like they did in 1999-2000 (McMahon-Helmsley Era) until they made Rock vs Austin at Mania 16...that would've been cool.

 

[wwewz]

Firstly I think it's shocking that The Rock never got to beat Stone Cold for the WWF title... possibly the reason why many still believe Aust was "the guy" the whole time.

Some people say Austin was "the guy" because Rock always got booed when they faced, which is not true at all.
During their first feuds, unlike Austin, Rock hadn't reached the height of his popularity and he was a heel... then the build to WM17 was even, yeah Austin was the favorite in the match because it was his back yard, that's the way it works, but the night after the crowd was in favor of Rock. Also the crowd was in favor of Rock when he returned later on in 2001. When they faced in 2003 it was in favor of Austin, but again Rock was a heel.
Their only real meeting as 2 faces was the build to WM17 and that was Austin's return, and it was even. Fans loved them both. I think Rock was more over with kids and women, and Austin would have had a lot of the die-hard fans because they teat it as, Austin was there first.

Around that time, Rock had the highest TV rating segment, and decent ratings without Austin, Rock was mainstream beyond Austin, Rock had Smackdown named after him, and the video games named after him, I believe his merchandise was top selling in 1999 & 2000, he had decent attendances, I think he was the first 6 time WWF champ, he headlined all the WM's in that time.... So why do people say Austin was still "the guy" in that time??
Now you can argue that Austin was out for a while, but the signs were there before... you can believe if you choose that if Austin was there, then he would have been above Rock, you can say that they were even, but with all the excuses you want, nobody was above The Rock at that time.
Same way you can argue if Rock hadn't left in 2001 he would have been above Austin. If Rock never left for movies, and stayed on all these years, he would have been the biggest star in wrestling history, he would have made the company more money than anyone. He chose not to.

Everyone wants to talk about how popular Austin was in 98... thing is, he didn't have Rock at the height of his popularity to compete with, Austin was without a doubt "the guy" but that was starting to change in 99.
If Austin was there, with Rock at his most popular and Austin teamed with Vince, to feud against Rock, I don't have any doubt the crowd would have been fully behind Rock.

 

[CM Steel]

HHH would've been nothing had HBK, The Rock, and Austin took time off.

HHH is the same as Jay-Z, if Pac and Biggie didn't die he would just be another rapper.

But yeah the rock vs. Austin at wm 2000 would have been perfect but I don't think the Austin turn would've had much backlash as it did when it really happened.

To quote Kurt Angle, that's damn true! Triple H had gotten lucky way before he had married Stephanie McMahon. Shawn Michaels had been retired for four years with a bad back for the whole attitude era, and Stone Cold Steve Austin had to sit on the bench from time-to-time from battling old injuries as well. And the Rock went on to become a movie star. So yeah Triple H wouldn't have been a big of a star had all the pieces of the puzzle would have been in place at that time.

And kudos for the Jay-Z/Tupac/Biggie comparison. It makes perfect sence!

 

[tvcolosi]

Firstly I think it's shocking that The Rock never got to beat Stone Cold for the WWF title... possibly the reason why many still believe Aust was "the guy" the whole time.

When it comes to working a match, the story telling that is Pro Wrestling, Rock was not even top 5 in his era. In no particular order Austin, HHH, Angle, Benoit, Jericho, maybe even Kane. I have gone back and watched that stuff again with my adult eyes and what HHH was able to do while Austin was hurt was nothing short of amazing. I am not typically a HHH guy, though i think he gets unfair criticism about "holding guys down" and crap like that.


look at the parade of guys he had to make look like 1,000,000
Big Show at his absolute worst after being demoted to MCW
Foley who was retiring at Survivor Series 99, but stuck around a bit to fill a spot.
Taker in the worst shape of his whole career, seriously the beginning of the ABA gimmick he looked 350 lbs.
Having Vince and Shane involved in main events with him and having to carry them
Last but not least Bulldog when he was really messed up.

Back on topic, I have to say late 99 early 2000 was too soon for an Austin heel turn. They didn't buy it 16 months later when it happened. Austin was still red hot in 99. Also it would have stunted the HHH progression which in hindsight could have been a bad omen. HHH was the bridge from the Austin/Rock era to the Cena/Batista era because of Austin having to retire, Rock doing movies, Angles neck being questionable, Benoit missing a year with his neck, Edge missing a year with his neck, Goldberg not getting over, and Lesnar deciding to play football

 

[wwewz]

When it comes to working a match, the story telling that is Pro Wrestling, Rock was not even top 5 in his era. In no particular order Austin, HHH, Angle, Benoit, Jericho, maybe even Kane.

Everyone's gonna have their different opinions, I don't think there is right and wrong answers, but Rock was amazing at storytelling.
He's not and never claimed to be an out and out technical wrestler, but from from a storytelling point of view Rock was very good.
People only seem to remember Rock's last 4 matches, having been out for years, and no little warm up matches on Raw. He had put on a lot of weight, he would have been trying to limit his bumps, working with guys he never worked with before, and he would have let them be in control of the match.
But before those 4 matches, it's not a coincidence how many times Rock had the match of the night. It's not a coincidence many people think Austin, HHH, Jericho, Mick Foley, had some of their best matches with The Rock.

Maybe you just consider story telling to be targeting one part of the body??
Sure that's one way to tell a story, but there are many other ways, which Rock did through facial expressions, selling moves and making someone look a lot stronger, to interacting and playing off of the crowd in matches, to mocking the opponent, copying their moves or taunts, cheap shots as a heel.

Look at WM 17, 18, 19 all perfect examples of Rock great storytelling, you can say it's all down to his opponents, but it's clear what Rock does to make a great entertaining match. If you don't like what he does in the ring that's fine, there's current wrestlers that everyone seems to like in the ring, but I don't like it, it's just personal taste. Some people think it's much better to put someone in a little hold rather than take a little longer to get up... to me, that's no more entertaining.
But I don't think you can realistically deny Rock was a great storyteller.

Rock wasn't as good in the ring as an Angle or Benoit but who is? And he didn't need to be, he was better than them in other aspects and he more then made up for what he was lacking in the ring.

 

[The Jeff]

Great topic. It's sad that The Rock never really got his WrestleMania moment at his peak. Sure, he beat Hulk Hogan but they didn't treat it like the main event. I personally think The Rock was the top guy from September 1999-August 2002. Stone Cold gets a lot of praise, some unjustly, but he burned out quicker than a lot of main eventers.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Austin heel turn would never had worked. I just listened to JR's podcast and that was his biggest regret. If you think turning him heel was a good idea because he was 'stale,' his said himself house shows, ratings and PPV numbers dropped because of it. It's the same reason why they don't turn Cena heel. There is a vocal group that disapproves of him, but in the end, he's the moneymaker for the company.

Austin turning heel at 2001 would have worked fine if it wasn't for the Invasion angle. Before that there was, at least, a clear direction in what kind of heel they wanted Austin to be. During Austin's heel turn guys like Benoit and Jericho got really over and he had a ton heat in that Lita beatdown.

Problem was, as I said, The Invasion angle. It was such a clusterf... in how to manage all these influx of superstars, it really looked like they didn't really focus in developing Austin's heel persona.