Assisted Suicide

[Loveless]

OK I'm just going to pick out little parts to respond to because there's nothing that kills a thread quicker than massive rambling posts that includes quotes. Plus it gives me a headache.

My point all along has been that a line needs to be drawn at some point but that this isn't a situation where clear lines can be drawn. Even if I take the things you've said there are problems

Locked in - The patient isn't able to choose in any form. So by your notion of it being a purely personal choice that no-one else can decide on, AS is not an option here.

Terminally ill - Here we have the problem that they didn't kill themselves when they had the chance. Do they really want to die or just care and attention?

Paralysed - They're not actually dying, or in any physical pain whatsoever but you argue they should be allowed AS, and even though depression is a natural consequence of paralysis you're not willing to extend this to..

Depressives - Who are also not dying, not in physical pain and in all cases also unable to act with a clear mind.

The way I look at this is simple - you or me could go out and commit suicide today if we wanted to. Someone paralysed, or with a terminal illness where they're losing all their dignity because they can't even wipe their own bottom doesn't have that choice. I don't think that's fair. If I decide to die today, I can die. But why can't they?

Just because you and I are capable of making that choice, doesn't mean it's a choice we should have. I would argue that anyone who wants to kill themselves is, by definition, not in the right state of mind and that what people actually want or need is help. I think sometimes it's necessary to protect people from themselves.

As I've said previously, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them. Are many likely to be for stupid reasons? Yes. But that's up to them.

Oh come on! Yeah we should just let people kill themselves instead of trying to help them. For someone who is arguing compassion for the dying, your attitude to the living is "fuck 'em".
My ex is schizophrenic and has tried to kill herself on 2 occasions. When she's sane she doesn't actually want to die, so should I have just let her jump off the roof when she was ill then? Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, whether it's illness or their own stupidity. Just letting them get on with is callous and akin to leaving someone to die when you could instead help them.

I seriously doubt legalising assisted suicide for people with unmanageable illnesses is going to lead to regular people who had never thought of suicide before killing themselves.

You can have my personal guarantee on this one. I know one person in particular who is only alive because she's catholic and the perception is suicide is absolutely forbidden. Suicide is taboo in this culture and it stops so many people even discussing it, let alone going ahead with it. I guarantee that once the perception changes, suicide rates go up exponentially and again I'm going to reference Bridgend. For those who are not aware, it's a small Welsh town that a couple of years back had an explosion of around 30 teen suicides all within a couple of months of each other.

 

[Calderownz]

Basically, I'm all for it. It has a lot to do with religion. Religious people think they have a right to tell you when you can die. They don't live your life, but want to tell you how to handle it. I find that to be not only an intrusive, but absurd.

If someone wants help with killing themselves, they should be allowed to go to safe locations. This way, people don't kill people and then make it seem as though the person wanted to be killed. This would clear up matters.

In truth, if someone wants to kill themselves, I'm fine with it. I don't agree with doing it, personally, but it's none of my business. I have no right to tell someone that they should live if they don't want to.

People say; that it's the easy way out..... So? That's fine. Once again, not your life. What does it have to do with you?

People say; what about the people they leave behind? From parents and family to their children and friends? That's unfortunate. Really is. But the kids should be taken care of and the person should still have the right. There's a law that deals with parents who don't treat their kids properly. Killing yourself isn't being a good parent. So... take their kids away. It sucks, I'm sure. But, you shouldn't force a person to live out a life they don't want.

 

[HBK-aholic]

My point all along has been that a line needs to be drawn at some point but that this isn't a situation where clear lines can be drawn. Even if I take the things you've said there are problems

Locked in - The patient isn't able to choose in any form. So by your notion of it being a purely personal choice that no-one else can decide on, AS is not an option here.

I agree this a very tricky area and I'm not going to attempt to sugarcoat anything because I feel it helps my side of the argument. This is where the possibility of people putting their personal gains over the life of the patient comes into play more than ever. Yet every case like this shouldn't just be dismissed. I've already said if I were in the position of not being able to communicate at all I'd want my loved one to decide to let me die for my sake. Each case would need to be looked at individually, and anyone seen to be acting in this way because they stand to gain personally should face jail time.

Terminally ill - Here we have the problem that they didn't kill themselves when they had the chance. Do they really want to die or just care and attention?

I'm sure a doctor specialising in mental illness could make the distinction much better than either you or I could. While I'm sure the latter is the case for some, I'm also sure others really do just want to die on their own terms, peacefully.

Paralysed - They're not actually dying, or in any physical pain whatsoever but you argue they should be allowed AS, and even though depression is a natural consequence of paralysis you're not willing to extend this to..

Paralysis is the number one reason I'd want to be assisted in suicide and I'm sure many agree. Would you seriously want to live without being able to move or communicate in any way, but with your brain working as it does now? I can't imagine a worse position to be in.

Depressives - Who are also not dying, not in physical pain and in all cases also unable to act with a clear mind.

As you yourself stated, someone with depression that bad can hardly make their own decisions. If they don't know what they want, how can they be assisted in suicide? As I've said before, with allowing this to be legal medical professionals should definitely be involved, and would need to be sure this is what the person wanted to do. How can a medical professional be sure if the person with depression isn't?

Just because you and I are capable of making that choice, doesn't mean it's a choice we should have. I would argue that anyone who wants to kill themselves is, by definition, not in the right state of mind and that what people actually want or need is help. I think sometimes it's necessary to protect people from themselves.

Oh come on! Yeah we should just let people kill themselves instead of trying to help them. For someone who is arguing compassion for the dying, your attitude to the living is "fuck 'em".
My ex is schizophrenic and has tried to kill herself on 2 occasions. When she's sane she doesn't actually want to die, so should I have just let her jump off the roof when she was ill then? Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, whether it's illness or their own stupidity. Just letting them get on with is callous and akin to leaving someone to die when you could instead help them.

I've never said they shouldn't be offered help. If I saw someone about to jump off a bridge I'd try to talk them out of it. But at the end of the day, we have the choice to do just about anything with our lives - except die how we want to. It doesn't make sense.

Also your example proves exactly why I'm very sceptical about allowing someone with a mental illness to be assisted in suicide.

You can have my personal guarantee on this one. I know one person in particular who is only alive because she's catholic and the perception is suicide is absolutely forbidden. Suicide is taboo in this culture and it stops so many people even discussing it, let alone going ahead with it. I guarantee that once the perception changes, suicide rates go up exponentially and again I'm going to reference Bridgend. For those who are not aware, it's a small Welsh town that a couple of years back had an explosion of around 30 teen suicides all within a couple of months of each other.

Religions don't change because the law does. If this person is so Catholic she thinks suicide is absolutely forbidden, assisted suicide being legal won't change the views of that Church.

Also, suicide should be discussed. Not as an answer to every possible problem you have, but it happens. The fact it's so taboo possibly makes the issue worse, because people who feel suicidal don't feel they can talk about it without being judged.

Regarding Bridgend - it was a bunch of stupid teenagers who wanted attention in a short term thought. And the suicides stopped after a couple of months - so using this example, some stupid people will try it within a few months of each other, before logic will prevail and it'll stop.

As a closing note, I look to Switzerland where legally this has been worked out very well - and I think a similar situation here would be great. People who want help in dying in England simply fly to Switzerland, where they get that. Why should they have to fly that way for the same end result? And why should they have to worry about their loved ones being prosecuted on their return, simply for wanting to be there with them when they died?

 

[Dagger Dias]

It depends on if the person who they are assisting provided proof of permission or not. Someone who has proof that they had permission to do assisted suicide should not be punished because they technically did not do anything wrong. I personally don't believe that assisted suicide is something anyone should do, but if someone is miserable and gives permission to someone else to assist them then the blame does not lie with that person.

 

[Slyfox's Bitch]

Coincidence how I was just discussing this in my Ethics class today.

While I do think suicide is pretty selfish and unreasonable, that is only my opinion. From a critical thinking point of view, it can sometimes makes sense, to end unbearable pain and all. Personally, I'd like to hold onto every moment I have left to at least reminisce and find peace in my own mind before I die.

Anyways, I do think people should be punished for assisted suicide. Not only in the medical field but even if you're an advocate or a goad like someone who drives someone to suicide such as a bully. As a Med student, I have first hand experience of the numerous oaths. One famous code speaks of doing anything you can for the greater good as a civil servant, and doing all you can to help people as a servant of their health. It's not only breaking that oath when you assist in suicide but it's doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing. Death, letting someone die, is not an option, it's a inevitable result only at times. Let's face it, people in pain don't know what's good for them, especially depressed people. This is why they're in these endless cycles. Legally, you're participating in a death when it comes to assisted suicide. How's that different than conspiracy to murder or attempted murder? Even if it is in a certain circumstance, it wouldn't be by much.

Another thing is the family. They will surely be affected by the death in someway and usually negatively. Whether the victim was in pain or not, the family would not find peace in most circumstances unless the victim died of natural causes rather than having their life ended early.

Helping a disabled or depressed person die, never okay. Helping them cope, or feel better, always okay. Why would you want to feed negativity?

In Canada, we are obliged to help people in certain health dangers. Not helping them can be controversially against the law. It usually depends on the case. Then the idea of freedom takes its toll. "Why should I help? It doesn't affect me now, I'm not sure of its effects if I even try to do something." Do you side with freedom or integrity? It's hard to say, isn't it? Every legal system and law has loopholes and is flawed but it is up to us to not take advantage of those flaws and work to mending them. It's not our obligation, but it is in our best interest.

 

[scoopslam]

if i were to kill myself here is why i would need assisted suicide.

i do not own a gun, or have access to one.

i do not have a car, to riv into something & potentiolly hurt someone else, or worse survive.

i do not have prescripstion drugs , for an effective overdose.

a hanging would leave my neihbors to much personal enjoyment.

this is why i would want a assisted suicide "store".

 

[LSN80]

Do you think someone should be punished for assisting in suicide?

I don't personally. I went through a very painful experience of watching my healthy, vibrant, 70 year old grandmother go from working in her yard to dying in a hospital bed three months later due to undetected Stage 4 breast cancer. Even on morphine, the pain was unbearable, and her brain had incredibly deteriorated due to the chemo and radiation. She couldn't communicate her wants and needs very well at this point, but you could see in her eyes that she wanted to die and had given up on life. My question is, why shouldn't she have been allowed the opportunity to choose the time and the place, say a definitive good-bye to her family, and die peacefully without prolonging sufferring?

As a doctor, albeit just a psychologist, I have some priviledges at the hospital she was in. If she had told me "I want to die", I would have done everything in my power to find the code for her morphine pump, and administer enough to allow her to drift off peacefully. I look at the oath I took to "do no harm" in both that I would never do anything to harm the healthy, but also not to allow unneccessary sufferring for the sick. I think that's the mindset of those who do assist the sufferring in suicide, and they're doing a good thing. Why should they be punished for that?

What are the limits? Should someone be able to help a disabled person, or a depressed person?

Im going to go on a bit of a rant here. But to me, this is an all or nothing proposition. Its not up to anyone to decide what's unbearable sufferring or life quality for someone else. To place limits suggests that there is a standard determined by someone else over that person's life.

The mentally ill are so looked down on for most parts, and often rediculed by society on most fronts. There's a total lack of undersanding as to the causes and reality of mental illness, because its not something that shows up on a biopsy CT scan, or an X-Ray. As a result the mentally ill are pathologized much of the time as being "at fault" for their problems. So while suicide may be triggered by terrible life circumstances that happen all of a sudden, it also is a case where the ill feel alone and looked down on. So in return, they feel they must kill themselves and die alone, leading people around them in shock and disbelief, even those closest to them. Most suicidal people bury their feelings and emotions because people truly do not understand them, which leads to people thinking it "came out of nowhere."

I feel that the mentally ill who commit suicide are quite justified in doing so, and just as assistance should be there for those who are sufferring physically, it should be there for those who are sufferrring mentally as well. So many of them are dealing with dehabilitating mental conditions from which they'll never get better, disintegrative disorders. All the medication and talk therapy in the world can't help them overcome this, and their brains will do nothing but deteriorate as time passes until they truly go insane. What exactly is wrong with someone giving them a helping hand if they're never going to get better? Other then for selfish reasons of wanting that person around, where is the justification in punishing those who help those with dehabilitating, disintegrative mental illness to a better place?

I feel those who are so mentally ill shouldn't be forced to suffer more then they already are, and the idea of "active euthanasia" should be something that should be present for them if their condition is dehabilitating. I know this isn't a popular view, but Ive had clients who've commied suicide that I never thought would go there, and they never dropped hints. I just found out about it in the paper, or through a loved one. Why? Because the mentally ill are looked down on as "crazy", "insane" "socially inept" and "pathetic." Who should be forced to live with not only the idea of having people look down on them, but also dealing with their own illness? Its a slippery slope to navigate, I would imagine myself, but society's view on the mentally ill along with their condition make for intense sufferring, often that has to be endured alone out of shame. It's no different from a physical illness, but while those with physical illness are treated with support, respect, and love, those with mental illness are pathologized. I think that most mentally ill people who commit suicide fall into this class, so its hard for me to look down on them. There should be more ways to give them the help they need, honestly, and I dont look down whatsoever on the person who commits suicide, or the person who assists them. In a way, I applaud them, because it means that person didnt suffer alone, and had support.

 

[Minnesota Connection]

Assisted Suicide. I'm ok with that.

Only after a well thought out monthly process that has involved thought including other individuals on the topic.

Because if that is thought about, they won't do it. Unfortunate for some, they choose to go without any thought or consideration. : (

My opinion.

 

[LSN80]

Assisted Suicide. I'm ok with that.

Only after a well thought out monthly process that has involved thought including other individuals on the topic.

Because if that is thought about, they won't do it. Unfortunate for some, they choose to go without any thought or consideration. :

Just because its your opinion, doesn't make it a good, or even rational one. First off, why, under any circumstances, should someone be forced into a discussion about their choice on suicide? This is asserting control over the life of another, which is pretty unconstitutional.

Further, what do you do with the people who are unable to think rationally anymore? Have you ever been around a disintegrative schizophrenic, or a someone with Stage 4 death cancer? They don't exactly think straight in these situations. No amount of "rational conversation" is going to allow them to make a rational decision, as you put it. Most truly suicidal people have their mind made up, and theres no amount of convincing from rational people that would help them.

Moreso, what youre talking about is having a rational conversation, but what about emotional? The people who are sufferring truly suffer emotionally, and why would a person after having a month of rational conversations change their mind? Their sufferring isnt going to go away, its going to get worse. What could possibly make them change their mind?

Finally, youre assuming that people give it no thought or conversation., Most people who commit suicide consider every other option, and only when they conclude that they can no longer bear the pain of life, they take their own life. The problem with the idea of "no thought or consideration" is that it paints the portrait of people who commit suicide as suicide being indicative of a seperate mental illness, selfish, or taking the easy way out. The issue I have with this is simple. There are some people who just simply can't handle the sufferring, and who are we, as outsiders, to determine how terrible their sufferring is? I understand and am all for protecting life at almost all costs, but Im not for imposing my view of life, or how to live it, upon others.

So if someone decides suicide is the best choice for them, whether they make an emotional, rational decision, or a combination of the two, who are we as outsiders to tell them otherwise. Where do you get the assumption that all people who have rational conversations about it will always make the rational decision. This is flawed logic and exactly what I was talking about in my original post about suicidal people being viewed as "crazy", "irrational", and "selfish". Its your opinion, but it doesn't mean Im not going to call you out for having a bad one.

 

[Minnesota Connection]

And if they would like to die then that would be their choice.

Isn't the constitution like you said about choices and opinions?

Most people have irrational thoughts during suicide attempts, if a rational conversation were to take place it would more then likely take care of the teenage suicides as well as other age groups. Not entirely, never entirely.. But it would help. :-/

Just saying, its common sense, experience and logic in an illogical subject.

 

[LSN80]

And if they would like to die then that would be their choice.

We agree here. Their choice. Not someone else forcing them to "consider their options" for a month.

Isn't the constitution like you said about choices and opinions?

It is. And that protects someone from others making decisions about another's life actions, unless they've been deemed to be mentally incapable. Suicide, as much as you'ld like to spin it, isn't an irrational, spur of the moment decision. Most people who consider and commit suicide think through their choice, theyre not just making an irrational decision.

Most people have irrational thoughts during suicide attempts, If a rational conversation were to take place it would more then likely take care of the teenage suicides as well as other age groups. Not entirely, never entirely.. But it would help. :-/

Unless you have some kind of empirical proof of this, this is just your opinion, nothing more. There's nothing wrong with having rational conversations about any type of life decision. As a psychologist, its what I do every day. But as Ive seen, I can't change people's minds. You can remind someone of all they have to live for, but if, in their mind, the negatives of living outweigh the positives, then their mind is generally made up. And again, youre assuming that suicide is an irrational decision here. Its not. Its a decision based on the desire to quit sufferring. Of course, every other option should be explored, but if a person has their mind made up and is sufferring greatly, no amount of exploration is going to change their mind. Im not trying to jump all over you here, but its something Im very passionate about. Ive had several clients O.D. on the medication I prescribed them. I was unaware, as I wouldn't have prescribed the medication otherwise.

Just saying, its common sense, experience and logic in an illogical subject.

Common sense and logic to you, in what you view as being an illogical subject. As I said before, many people who commit suicide, especially the mentally ill, are isolated because of this very belief. That they're being illogical. And this type of viewpoint only serves to push them further away from listening to logic and "common sense", which leads to isolation, more depression, and a very slippery slope. Instead of injecting logic, one needs to inject emotion into the conversation with those who are considering suicide. If you can appeal to someones emotional side, thats when the chances go up that the suicidal patient chooses a different path. Using logic, not so much. Sorry man, Im not trying to be hard on you, just trying to share my experience on a subject I feel strongly about.