Anyone Miss Trish?

[Bernkastel]

I'll agree that Candice will NEVER "BE" the next Trish Stratus, but thats what she's being 'billed' as. And also, yeah, I fully agree that they should've placed Mickie James, or in my opinion, Victoria.. atop the Women's Division.. but the reason for Candice is probably for two main reasons.

1. Candice is the most "nationally known" diva on their roster, with that Go-Daddy crap...
2. Mickie James & Victoria were similar with psycho gimmicks, that made their career (in my opinion) & have since fizzled out. Mickie sucks as a face. Victoria sucked as a face too, & has never gotten back to the original psycho she once was.. & both are thanks in part to Trish making their characters..

Candice & Melina could have a Trish/Lita type rivalry. I can't see Beth Phoenix (am I even spelling her name right?) being anything great. Sure, she seems to have talent & the wrestling ability. But she seems a lot bigger than most of the other Divas.. & as such, has taken on the role of "glamazon."

I think Beth is sadly in for a Chyna type push in the Women's Division.. which, Chyna, was the only female I truly could NOT stand. She was a hypocrite.. she never wanted to be in the female division, she thought she was better than the rest, & she was partly to blame for that division sucking.. cause she never allowed any other female to look better than her.

True, Candice is well known among the Divas now, but the most well known, Sorry going to have to give that honor to Torrie. She's been in the media and all across the internet FAR longer than anyone else. The only two WWE divas that might be more well known than Torrie would be Trish or Stacy. But it doesn't matter, half the people that know who Torrie is don't realize she's a WWE wrestler, same would go for Candice.

Agree with you on the psycho gimmicks, except Mickie was more of an obsession rather than a psychotic, like Sable vs Tori 2. Victoria needs to return to hers while I think Mickie is fine where she is now, she's doing well as a face.

I see Beth possibly playing the role that Molly Holly had, and thats the role of mentor, teaching the girls that don't know jack shit what their doing a thing or two. As far as her power goes, sure she's strong, ridiculously strong, but so is Victoria, in fact the two are equal in size and strength.

And also If you want to talk about power, WWE has Nattie Niedhart signed and may be bringing her up soon. Now even if Natie has dropped weight, I still wouldn't be surprised if she was as strong as Beth and Victoria. Hell, when Nattie was on the indy circuit I watches her toss Amazing Kong (a 235 lb woman) around with relative ease, so theirs no tell whats she's going to be capable of.

 

[LipstickAndBruises]

Torrie Wilson is NOT eye candy. I met her in person once, in Moline.. trust me.. MAKE-UP DOES WONDERS! I used to complain all the time about females that wear too much make-up, but I took it back.. because Torrie looks half-way decent with all that caked on crap, compared to what she looked like all "tired & wrinkled."

Candice, to me, isn't even that attractive either. But I'm weird.. lol

Hahaha, reguardless how we all feel about a bare faced Torrie....her primary function is eye candy wether the candy is tasty or not....well ya know....to each their own.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Agree with you on the psycho gimmicks, except Mickie was more of an obsession rather than a psychotic, like Sable vs Tori 2. Victoria needs to return to hers while I think Mickie is fine where she is now, she's doing well as a face.

LOL Yeah, Mickie's really making a go of everything.. she's jobbing like the best of them, to divas that don't even belong in the same ring as her right now. (sorry, I don't mean that badly.. but when I read what you wrote about Mickie being fine.. it made me laugh, cause her losing to Jillian was the first thought that came to mind.)

Mickie's gimmick was obsession, similar to Sable/Tori.. sorry, didn't mean she was same as Victoria.. what I meant more was Mickie & Victoria to me, are at their best, when they're heel. And yes, Victoria desperately needs to return to her psycho gimmick.. & not that half watered down crap shes doing now.. I mean, the original gimmick she came in with.. against Trish. (side note, for anyone looking to correct me.. I fully realize Victoria was a Godfather Ho before a psycho wrestler)

Finally.. I'm eagerly awaiting the *New Hart Foundation* to debut, including Nattie Neidhart.. but would she debut as a valet, or a wrestling diva? I think anyone, male or female, that grew up from that family.. needs to wrestle.

 

[Bernkastel]

Whats so bad about Mickie losing to Jillian, the fact that IMO Jillian is a better wrestler (even though in reality their probably about the same), and since Mickie has been established more than Jillian, by Jillian beating Mickie, it tells your average mark that, hey, Jillian beat Mickie James, she's now technically in that Main Event Range.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Whats so bad about Mickie losing to Jillian, the fact that IMO Jillian is a better wrestler (even though in reality their probably about the same), and since Mickie has been established more than Jillian, by Jillian beating Mickie, it tells your average mark that, hey, Jillian beat Mickie James, she's now technically in that Main Event Range.

I'll give credit, where its due.. & that is an excellent point. I'm not arguing that Jillian isn't an up & coming diva turned wrestler.

I was more making slight at the fact, you said Mickie (as a face, currently) is doing okay. Yet when you look at it.. Jillian to anyone who doesn't look beyond.. is nothing more than a diva who's a wannabe Britney Spears, or more importantly.. a knock on Hogan's daughter, Brooke.

I do agree that W.W.E. is now trying to say.. "Hey, Jillian is talented. She beat a former Women's Champion, & deserves respect." So I'll give respect where its due.. & yes, Jillian is an up & comer.. but again.. I didn't mean to say she wasn't.. I was just making light of the subject, on how you think Mickie is doing okay.. when she's losing to divas, left & right. (more importantly, the W.W.E. is using Mickie as a stepping stone for other divas to get over, off of.)

And finally, when I said Mickie is losing to divas that don't deserve to be in the same ring.. I take that back, because it is a slap to Jillian's ability.. HOWEVER, Mickie compared to Jillian.. I'd have to give the nod to Mickie, so overall.. I don't think Mickie is doing great, or even good. She's seemingly a couple steps away from being the female jobber in the Women's Division.. & "I" personally think thats crap.

 

[Bernkastel]

^ And Again, how is that a bad thing? especially when Mickie is the only diva (beside maybe Melina) whose over. So when a diva of any proportions that wasn't established before beats Mickie, thats a sign from WWE to the fans that they are trying to establish this individual by having her beat Mickie James.

I can see it happen again with Candice (she the fucking champ and she's not even over, how fucking sad is that! At least Cena gets a reaction, Candice gets shit) and with Beth

 

[TheOneBigWill]

But don't you think if W.W.E. constantly has Mickie James losing left & right, similar to Victoria.. that both of them would be buried? Before long a lot of people (who just watch wrestling as a whole, but don't look past, to actual talent) are going to believe Mickie & Victoria are nothing more than washed up.

Look at the divas from the past thats lost jobs due to losing face to the fans. Molly Holly, Ivory, Jazz even.. & thats rough. I just don't wish to lose Victoria or Mickie James.. & its fine to have them lose & build other females up once in a while, but let them win every now & then.

 

[Bernkastel]

^ It depends on who she loses to, If she loses to Candice, fine she's the champ, and plus Mickie would be doing her a favor by helping her train more. If she loses to Beth, also fine, they may want to establish Beth as a potential threat to Candice, same with Jillian. Because everyone knows that Mickie James is championship material, but they may not know that Beth, Jillian are.

But If Mickie suddenly loses to Maria, then thats not fine, I would probably break my TV if that happened.

ALL of the women on RAW excluding Maria are title worthy (except Candice IMO, but yet she'll still be the champ)

And Mickie been the Champ 3 times already, its time to see some new faces, odds are they will throw Mickie back into the title hunt, but in the meantime, why not use her to help get the others established and over?

 

[beard93]

I orginally disliked Trish but now that she has been gone, the womens division has severly sucked. Melina cant wrestle. They dont use victoria. and Mickie is now jobbing for some reason.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

I orginally disliked Trish but now that she has been gone, the womens division has severly sucked. Melina cant wrestle. They dont use victoria. and Mickie is now jobbing for some reason.

Actually I think the Women's Division is pretty good right now. I know some people hate Candice as champion, but I don't think she's all that bad. As for her not being "over," I think she is, especially from all the house show matches that I've been watching of her. Melina can wrestle... she's been wrestling since 2000. And they're pushing Beth "Glamazon" Phoenix. I think that's pretty damn good.

I miss Trish a lot, but I'm glad that she got the oppertunity to get married and start new things.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

^ House shows don't mean very much Dragon. Unless the matches or shows are publicized publicly for everyone to see, or distributed via download via internet (which their not) house shows don't mean anything until whats shown there is transfered to the main stage. And Just like that bullshit title chance that happened between Melina and Mickie a few months back at a house show, unless Candice can prove that she can get over on Live television and not just on a show that no one else can see unless its via camcorder of someone who saw the house show live.

They dont use victoria. and Mickie is now jobbing for some reason.

Oh my god! I just spent the last 3 posts explaining to Big Will why exactly Mickie has become a Jobber. Next time read whats right above you, you may get the answers your looking for.

 

[.MCH]

Actually house shows can mean alot. I think WWE television isn't the reliable source. WWE edits alot of their sounds on their shows and it isn't the best source for crowd pops and to see who is over.

I believe Candice is very over. When she kicked out of Beth's slingshot suplex off the ropse the crowd went fucking crazy over it. But now that Candice has improved her ring skills it appears they want her to do the same with her mic skills and I must admit they are improving. But she still needs to work on it a little bit though.

Anyways I do agree about Mickie being the jobber. She has had 3 title reigns and has had her chance to shine in the division and it's time for others to be in the spotlight and gain more experience.

The women's division is getting better, I actually like it better now that Trish is gone. More women have more oppurtunites then with Trish and Lita there.

 

[Bernkastel]

Well house shows CAN mean allot, but do we ever get to see the effects that House shows have, no, unless we cough up the money to see them live. And If we do get to see a clip or so on youtube from a house show taken by a camcorder, it'll only be like 20 seconds long and the production value will be horrible.

I say since a live WWE television program, RAW, is where the money is made, and were most of where the real ''entertainment" happens. If a superstar is able to get over and perform at a mere house show, but is not able to show it on the main show that people tune into to see, then there's a major problem with that. Clearly Candice has all the tools, but for some reason that escapes all my knowledge, and apparently most of everyone else's, she doesn't show any of them.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Well house shows CAN mean allot, but do we ever get to see the effects that House shows have, no, unless we cough up the money to see them live. And If we do get to see a clip or so on youtube from a house show taken by a camcorder, it'll only be like 20 seconds long and the production value will be horrible.

I say since a live WWE television program, RAW, is where the money is made, and were most of where the real ''entertainment" happens. If a superstar is able to get over and perform at a mere house show, but is not able to show it on the main show that people tune into to see, then there's a major problem with that. Clearly Candice has all the tools, but for some reason that escapes all my knowledge, and apparently most of everyone else's, she doesn't show any of them.

I agree with you there. Candice's title reign has been horrible, and I think it's more the WWE's fault then her. Come on they left her off of TV for three weeks, not to mention a PPV. You can't just do that with a champion. Not to mention the fact that she's only had one title defense, and she hasn't even had a decent feud for the title after Melina.

Though I have seen Candice at house shows, and she does get a huge pop.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

Yes, I've Seen Candice at house shows too, via the 20 second or so video I see on youtube, and she has the wrestling skill, she just never shows it on RAW. As far as the actual "entertainment" part of the match (mic skills and promos, in ring psychology, storytelling, overness with crowd) house show matches don't mean shit when it comes to those aspects, they have to be carried over to the main stage, IE Raw, for a change to occur.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Yes, I've Seen Candice at house shows too, via the 20 second or so video I see on youtube, and she has the wrestling skill, she just never shows it on RAW. As far as the actual "entertainment" part of the match (mic skills and promos, in ring psychology, storytelling, overness with crowd) house show matches don't mean shit when it comes to those aspects, they have to be carried over to the main stage, IE Raw, for a change to occur.

Very true. It has to be on Raw to matter. Look at Mickie vs Jillian on Heat this week- amazing match, but it won't really change the title picture.

I think the real problem with Candice and the belt is it was too much, too soon. It's great Candice improved, but there were people who deserved the belt, and could've handled the belt a lot better then her.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

Well, she can't be blamed for that, when Candice was first given the Belt, it was kind of a last resort thing, as WWE had exhausted their options (their fault) and had no one left to give the belt to except Candice. I wonder If thats partially why we haven't seen as much womens action as normal, as WWE is trying to get their storyline in order. Now that they have a set storyline, I'd imagine Candice would drop the belt to Beth. The last thing I want is for Candice to be made into a female Cena.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Well, she can't be blamed for that, when Candice was first given the Belt, it was kind of a last resort thing, as WWE had exhausted their options (their fault) and had no one left to give the belt to except Candice. I wonder If thats partially why we haven't seen as much womens action as normal, as WWE is trying to get their storyline in order. Now that they have a set storyline, I'd imagine Candice would drop the belt to Beth. The last thing I want is for Candice to be made into a female Cena.

See I don't think it was a "last resort" kind of thing. Melina could've held the championship longer, she'd only had it for about four months, techincally two if you count the second title reign. And even if they definitely had to give Candice the title, no matter what, they should've had some way of using her correctly. Not just sitting at ringside, or doing backstage promos (bad ones), while the title collected dust. How about making her feud with Jillian Hall, who deserves the title. I'm not blaming Candice at all, but I think the whole "title situation" could've been handled better.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

The only I didn't get was that I originally thought that Melina was going to go back to her managers position, which ultimately never happened, I thought that was why she was dropping the title. So when nothing changed with Melina, needless to say I was pissed.

I remember talking to Rawfannation and others who were behind Candice and I accepted her as champ, but only if she manged to establish herself first, which she didn't do it, I created the Why Candice shouldn't be champ thread.

I wonder if they are going to use Beth Phoenix (and her superior in ring skills, almost as if they are turning Beth into the next Molly Holly) to show the fans, the marks who cheer with question, and the smarks like me, that Candice is capable of not only handling herself in the ring, but she is capable of everything else as well. A feud with Beth could do that for Candice, and I wonder If thats the reason WWE took the belt from Melina and gave it to Candice. To establish her as a credible main eventer who could hang with the likes of Beth and Jillian and Mickie.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

The only I didn't get was that I originally thought that Melina was going to go back to her managers position, which ultimately never happened, I thought that was why she was dropping the title. So when nothing changed with Melina, needless to say I was pissed.

I remember talking to Rawfannation and others who were behind Candice and I accepted her as champ, but only if she manged to establish herself first, which she didn't do it, I created the Why Candice shouldn't be champ thread.

I wonder if they are going to use Beth Phoenix (and her superior in ring skills, almost as if they are turning Beth into the next Molly Holly) to show the fans, the marks who cheer with question, and the smarks like me, that Candice is capable of not only handling herself in the ring, but she is capable of everything else as well. A feud with Beth could do that for Candice, and I wonder If thats the reason WWE took the belt from Melina and gave it to Candice. To establish her as a credible main eventer who could hang with the likes of Beth and Jillian and Mickie.

I never figured that Melina would go back to being a manager, that seems to be in the past. I'm kind of happy about that. I perfer Melina as a wrestler.

They could possibly use Beth to make Candice look better, but to do that they actually have to use Candice. When's the last time she was in a match that lasted longer then 2 minutes? The GAB? That isn't right. I'm looking forward to the Beth/Candice feud, and maybe, just maybe it'll be what the "Molly Holly" feud was to Trish- a feud that takes her beyond her old T&A persona. I'm just hoping that they do this feud correctly, and not mess it up like they did the Melina/Candice feud with repetitive tag team matches (I would've given my right arm to see Melina and Candice in a verbal spar on Raw. They're blogs were fierce).

The number one thing that I have against Candice's title reign, is not Candice herself, but the fact that so many women deserved to hold the title before her. Jillian Hall, Beth Phoenix, and here's one that'll surprise people-Torrie Wilson, who could be the most held back woman in the WWE at the moment(I'm not at all a Torrie fan, but she never did get her chance to shine, except on Heat).

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

I never figured that Melina would go back to being a manager, that seems to be in the past. I'm kind of happy about that. I perfer Melina as a wrestler.

They could possibly use Beth to make Candice look better, but to do that they actually have to use Candice. When's the last time she was in a match that lasted longer then 2 minutes? The GAB? That isn't right. I'm looking forward to the Beth/Candice feud, and maybe, just maybe it'll be what the "Molly Holly" feud was to Trish- a feud that takes her beyond her old T&A persona. I'm just hoping that they do this feud correctly, and not mess it up like they did the Melina/Candice feud with repetitive tag team matches (I would've given my right arm to see Melina and Candice in a verbal spar on Raw. They're blogs were fierce).

The number one thing that I have against Candice's title reign, is not Candice herself, but the fact that so many women deserved to hold the title before her. Jillian Hall, Beth Phoenix, and here's one that'll surprise people-Torrie Wilson, who could be the most held back woman in the WWE at the moment(I'm not at all a Torrie fan, but she never did get her chance to shine, except on Heat).

Yeah thats what I was getting at, WWE using Beth to further Candice title run, because really if you look at it, Beth isn't established either, so she'd be in the same boat as Candice if she were to get the belt now. I figure If WWE can use Beth to show that Candice is a credible wrestler that people can accept without giving her so much grief, then WWE can begin to set up the big storylines, with Jillian and Mickie and Melina thrown into the mix.

As far as the second of your post, yes, girls like Jillian (maybe not Beth, to an extent, just because she can wrestle doesn't mean that she'd be a good candidate, she has to get over with the crowd just like Candice) deserve the belt first, but they weren't on RAW when Candice was given the belt, If Jillian was on RAW at that time, then she could very well be the champ right now.

As far as Torrie goes, hell no, Torrie hasn't ever been established the entire 5, 6 years she's been with WWE. Candice right now is in a much better place to wear that Title than Torrie. Torrie's mid card, and if you haven't noticed, WWE is trying to establish Michelle to take Candice's place in the mid card (by feeding her whats left of Victoria's career)

But I don't mind because at least when Ashley gets back, she'll be at the at the very bottom of the Smackdown food chain, where she belongs, instead of the very top.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Yeah thats what I was getting at, WWE using Beth to further Candice title run, because really if you look at it, Beth isn't established either, so she'd be in the same boat as Candice if she were to get the belt now. I figure If WWE can use Beth to show that Candice is a credible wrestler that people can accept without giving her so much grief, then WWE can begin to set up the big storylines, with Jillian and Mickie and Melina thrown into the mix.

As far as the second of your post, yes, girls like Jillian (maybe not Beth, to an extent, just because she can wrestle doesn't mean that she'd be a good candidate, she has to get over with the crowd just like Candice) deserve the belt first, but they weren't on RAW when Candice was given the belt, If Jillian was on RAW at that time, then she could very well be the champ right now.

As far as Torrie goes, hell no, Torrie hasn't ever been established the entire 5, 6 years she's been with WWE. Candice right now is in a much better place to wear that Title than Torrie. Torrie's mid card, and if you haven't noticed, WWE is trying to establish Michelle to take Candice's place in the mid card (by feeding her whats left of Victoria's career)

But I don't mind because at least when Ashley gets back, she'll be at the at the very bottom of the Smackdown food chain, where she belongs, instead of the very top.

Even though Beth hasn't really "established" herself of Raw, I think people at least in the IWC, would accept her as champion, faster then they accepted Candice, because of all the time she spent in the Indys. Not to mention the fact the woman was in a ladder match, which always makes me go !

See they should have put Jillian Hall on Raw long before even considering Candice as champion. Jillian Hall deserved more then putting on a fake "blemish" and standing at ringside during JBL's matches. The only time Jillian was ever used in a good way on SD was with her match against Melina at Judgement Day 06. Now I can understand that since Jillian was never placed on Raw till June, that Candice was the only candidate left, but that could've been avoided. And I've always had a nagging suspicioun that they made Candice champion, just because the DS was rolling around.

Don't get me wrong Torrie has never been established as a wrestler on Raw, but she could have, if given the chance. Of course I could be wrong, but then again we'll never know.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

Even though Beth hasn't really "established" herself of Raw, I think people at least in the IWC, would accept her as champion, faster then they accepted Candice, because of all the time she spent in the Indys. Not to mention the fact the woman was in a ladder match, which always makes me go !

See they should have put Jillian Hall on Raw long before even considering Candice as champion. Jillian Hall deserved more then putting on a fake "blemish" and standing at ringside during JBL's matches. The only time Jillian was ever used in a good way on SD was with her match against Melina at Judgement Day 06. Now I can understand that since Jillian was never placed on Raw till June, that Candice was the only candidate left, but that could've been avoided. And I've always had a nagging suspicioun that they made Candice champion, just because the DS was rolling around.

Don't get me wrong Torrie has never been established as a wrestler on Raw, but she could have, if given the chance. Of course I could be wrong, but then again we'll never know.

Flames Out
Dragon

Yeah, educated people in the IWC that actually bother to follow womens wrestling. Do you how many times I've gone to youtube and to other forums, and I hear time after time how much girls like Jillian and Beth and Melina and Lita and Trish are all no talented, big fake breasted bitches, whose only purpose in WWE was to provide Jack off material to fans? I hear it alot and I do my best to put those people in their places. I don't have to defend womens wrestling here at WZ, partially because I've spent a year doing it and everyone here has come to accept these women as great wrestlers. But despite the IWC, you would be amazed at the amount of people who would cheer Candice, or even Ashley of all people, over Beth or Jillian or even someone as great as Molly Holly because they think they have "The Look" and the other women don't.

But If you remember correctly, Jillian was busy trying to put over the useless Ashley, even AFTER her failed Wrestlemania, trying to raise Ashley to mid card status, but it never worked (thats why WWE is pushing Michelle now, and letting Ashley go do survivor. If Ashley was really that important to WWE, then they would have persuaded her to stay, but they didn't and now Michelle is taking her place.) Thank god WWE had the sense to move Jillian to RAW and not further waste her on SD.

 

[.MCH]

I agree about Candice's reign being possibly one of the worst, so far. I think it's horrible which is why I want Beth to take the title off of her so she can restart with a better reign in the future.

I do believe they have Candice feuding with Beth to only benefit Candice. I know that Beth will win the belt but not on Candice's first defense against her. I say at No Mercy. I also think they'll build Beth as this indestructable force to be reckoned with and they'll have Candice overcome the odds at Unforgiven and such.

But I really looking for a good feud between the two. Very much like Jazz vs. Trish despite this feud not being as great but similar in storyline. I also hope this feud lasts awhile, possibly into Survivor Series where the two engage in a hardcore match which would be awesome. I think Candice would do it becuase she's admitted that if she was told to do something by WWE, she would!

But the women's division can claim it's name back with this feud if the WWE plans it out right! We know these two will put on a good match but I also want to see some kickass promos and such. RAW showed that Beth will destroy anybody and that Candice isn't afraid. Let's hope these two can really pull off a great feud!

 

[watchingandwaiting]

To answer the question posed by this thread... YES...so very much. While it was awesome the way Trish went out, there was never really a "passing of the torch" moment, especially since Lita retired such a short time after.. If only the two of them could have held on for just a bit longer.. Imagine how great a Mickie James/Trish vs. Lita/Beth Phoenix feud could have been and how much Mickie and Beth would have benefited from it both in terms of character development and in-ring seasoning..