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Advanced Consent.

Toronto Star. March 26th said:
People can consent in advance to sex while unconscious, appeal court rules

Their safe words were “Tweety Bird,” meant to indicate their admittedly kinky sexual behaviour should stop.

And they are what the common law wife of a man known as “J.A.” said she uttered sometime after waking from unconsciousness and finding herself being sodomized by her partner, who was later convicted of sexual assault and breach of probation.

On Friday, the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned those convictions in a 2-1 decision that left judges divided over the issue of whether a person can consent in advance to sexual activity that is expected to occur while unconscious.

In a dissenting opinion, Justice Harry LaForme said Parliament, through “no means no” provisions in the Criminal Code and other legislation, has expressed “its clear view” that advance consent to sexual activity under those circumstances is impossible and any consent by J.A.’s spouse “was negated when she was choked into unconsciousness.”

But Justice Janet Simmons, writing for the appeal court majority, said permitting a person to consent in advance to sexual activity expected to occur while unconscious or asleep is entirely consistent with the principles of human dignity and autonomy.

“Where a person consents in advance to sexual activity expected to occur while unconscious and does not change their mind, I fail to see how the Crown can prove lack of consent,” Simmons said, with Justice Russell Juriansz agreeing.

J.A.’s spouse, whose identity is protected by a court order, said she and her partner were into sado-masochistic activity that included bondage and had attempted “erotic asphyxiation” in the past as a means of heightening sexual excitement.

She also said they had discussed the possibility of anal intercourse as a way of “spicing up” their five-year relationship, although what happened that night in May of 2007, when she awoke to find herself on “all fours” and being penetrated with a penis-shaped device, was “quite spontaneous.”

At J.A.’s trial in 2008, the defence reminded the court of former prime minister Pierre Trudeau’s famous declaration that the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation. The Crown argued that for consent to sexual contact to be legally valid, a person must be consenting at the time the sexual activity occurs. The Crown’s position was accepted by Justice Dianne Nicholas of the Ontario Court of Justice, who said that under the circumstances, the binding of the complainant’s hands and her sodomization by J.A. was “dehumanizing” and degrading.

But in Friday’s decision, Simmons said there is no sense in the Crown’s argument that consent to sexual activity must be given contemporaneously. A competent person, for example, can consent to surgery which is to occur while unconscious and not in a position to withdraw consent once anaesthetized.

As for J.A.’s spouse, she changed her story after she took the witness stand. She originally went to police and gave a videotaped statement complaining he had assaulted her without her consent while she was unconscious.

In court later, she said she had consented to the acts and that she went to police because she was angry with J.A. because she believed he was going to leave her and seek custody of their 2-year-old son.


I am not a supporter of this only because I find it creepy more than anything.

I suppose that if the unconscious person knows before hand everything that is going to be preformed on/to them, and has given permission for the act to take place then to each their own behind closed doors.

But for me, I would not want to engage in anything while my other half was not conscious and aware of what was going on just in case a line gets crossed or her mind changes.

Just because I wouldn't be interested in experiencing this, doesn't mean others won't so I'm not going to judge anyone for their sexual habbits and preferences.

I thought this was an interesting article on how the Ontario courts sees this and thought I'd seek other oppinions.
 
So...her partner had sex with her unconsious body...

That is a tad bit creepy. Now I will not gloat or change the subject here, but as a male who engages in adventurous companionship and enjoys it thoroughly, this made me go wtf?

I can't even get passed whatever law was broken here. I don't remember hearing any case about unconscious rape by a loved one. And "tweety bird" should never be used as a safeword. EVER.

Knowing a little about this topic, I will tell you it never should have gone to court. SnM (if they did the deed at a certain nightclub or fantasy house) always asks permission for things, as was clearly stated with "tweety bird" *shivvers*.

She should have known her boundaries, and she crossed them herself. That would be like in wrestling (SnM ex.), you go into your match knowing the outcome (you're to tapout/say the safeword) and when the finale comes you pass out and sue your opponent because you "remember" tapping/saying the safeword as you went limp.

^Actually I am starting to find this woman severely stupid. Someone may disagree but the example really says it all. She participates in something, knows what she's to do when things get "too rough" and instead of making it perfectly clear she blacks out like an idiot.

And just to have it all cleared up with this idiot woman at the end really makes me wonder why the court didn't sue her for disturbing the peace. Maybe Ontario laws are different then down here, but that would be grounds for filing some complaint- You wasted a lot of people's time with that; you should pay for it.
 
She should have known her boundaries, and she crossed them herself.

How did she cross the line herself if she was unconscious?

They may have discussed the possibility of certain sexual acts, but as far as we know, it was never decided that they would follow through and commit such acts.

Even if they were to were experiment and were bothing willing to explore, I'm sure that it was with the intent that either party could express a change of mind if things became uncomfortable, thus the safe word.

Both people enjoyed “erotic asphyxiation” as a way to increase their sex life. As a result of the erotic asphyziation, she became unconscious, which clearly excells past the intent of the act. Due to being unconscious, her partner took advantage of the situation and began to engage in anal sex. She was in no state to say the safe word once she experienced regret and uncomfort.

That would be like in wrestling (SnM ex.), you go into your match knowing the outcome (you're to tapout/say the safeword) and when the finale comes you pass out and sue your opponent because you "remember" tapping/saying the safeword as you went limp.

Lets say I have you in the sharpshooter, and you are suppose to tap out to finish the match. You pass out for whatever reason and are unable to tap out. By your logic, I can go outside the ring, grab a chair and beat your lifeless body with it because you didn't tap out.

Clearly this can't be right. As you're partner, either in the ring or behind closed doors, I am equally responsible for your well being and respect.

Actually I am starting to find this woman severely stupid. Someone may disagree but the example really says it all. She participates in something, knows what she's to do when things get "too rough" and instead of making it perfectly clear she blacks out like an idiot.

I doubt very much that she intentionally became unconscious. Even if things were getting too rough for her, she would have used the safe word, rather than black out to avoid the pain and humiliation.
 
How did she cross the line herself if she was unconscious?

They may have discussed the possibility of certain sexual acts, but as far as we know, it was never decided that they would follow through and commit such acts.

She voluntarily engaged in sexual acts. She wasn't forced to and as a human being she should have known her limitations. I could only presume that she knew how far she could go because she has a child.

And you are right about your closing statement. We don't know. But then again if her story is any way true then one would claim upon her endeavors of going in and "engaging" in acts she herself must have agreed upon because she had that God-awful safeword.


Both people enjoyed “erotic asphyxiation” as a way to increase their sex life. As a result of the erotic asphyziation, she became unconscious, which clearly excells past the intent of the act. Due to being unconscious, her partner took advantage of the situation and began to engage in anal sex. She was in no state to say the safe word once she experienced regret and uncomfort.

Again, we could only assume her said partner did anything to her after her passing out. And once again the safeword was there and could have been used before her unconscious encounters. Their unusual way of expressing love to one another is known for its pain. She knew the risks involved because she even devised the infamous "Tweety Bird" safeword.

No one passes out randomly. Yes, the intercourse could have been overwelming especially to one who has not experienced it at all or very little, but still it is painful and she could have let that word out in protest at any other given time.

And to know what exactly is happening to you even while you are "unconscious"....when does that happen?




Lets say I have you in the sharpshooter, and you are suppose to tap out to finish the match. You pass out for whatever reason and are unable to tap out. By your logic, I can go outside the ring, grab a chair and beat your lifeless body with it because you didn't tap out.

Clearly this can't be right. As you're partner, either in the ring or behind closed doors, I am equally responsible for your well being and respect.

Very true, but this brings up the whole aspect of why they were engaging in this "match up of wills" if obviously she didn't trust him completely. As a fellow worker in the ring, I would presume you grabbing the chair and beating me to death was "all part of the show" and I would have known ahead of time. To blatantly do it randomly would say you were in serious need of help.

As for the bedroom, like what was mentioned before she engaged in sexual acts her herself went by and she should have known when to "tap". She obviously "worked the circuit" before because she has a kid. Now it is clear that unconsious unwilling sex (rape) is wrong and the perpetrator should pay the price, but no one goes into the world of sexual risks and sues their partner because they themselves didnt utter their safeword. It's almost unheard of to have sex with someone with these rules, not go by the rules, and expect to have something only circumstancial to use to testify.



I doubt very much that she intentionally became unconscious. Even if things were getting too rough for her, she would have used the safe word, rather than black out to avoid the pain and humiliation.

Which brings us back to Why didn't she say that creepy safeword? It just doesn't make sense. Even later she changed her story:

As for J.A.’s spouse, she changed her story after she took the witness stand. She originally went to police and gave a videotaped statement complaining he had assaulted her without her consent while she was unconscious.

In court later, she said she had consented to the acts and that she went to police because she was angry with J.A. because she believed he was going to leave her and seek custody of their 2-year-old son.

So I could only presume she was lying about the whole thing. Okay it does sound fishy that she changed it up when she got on the stand, but still it doesn't sound nealy as skeptical as passing out and still knowing what is happening to you. Now I have blacked out before, and when I came to I didn't know what happened. People had to tell me how they carried me to the hospital.

She clearly has some issues (not meaning psychological, but that could be..) involving her husband. But to take such a circumstancial case to court was unecessary-true or not. Evidence is needed. Her video statement was fallible as it is.
 
Did the courts decide proving rape wasn't hard enough or something? 'Advanced consent' should not be allowed if you're then unconcious and don't know what's happening. Not speaking for this individual case, the thing is - how easy is it for a (usually) guy to say "We discussed this beforehand, she wanted sex, she gave me consent in advance", when a woman wakes up to find him having sex with her? Now, she can of course state the opposite (Who knows what really happened?), but with an often unanimous verdict needed to convict someone, there's a very, very good chance rapists can use this as an excuse and get away with rape.
 
As for J.A.’s spouse, she changed her story after she took the witness stand. She originally went to police and gave a videotaped statement complaining he had assaulted her without her consent while she was unconscious.

In court later, she said she had consented to the acts and that she went to police because she was angry with J.A. because she believed he was going to leave her and seek custody of their 2-year-old son.

This is the part thats truly, and only, important.

A man could've been sentenced (or was he?) to a long term in Prison, all because some Woman he was in a relationship with, talked together about some deeper sexual activity. Then, when she freaks out that he's going to do something completely UNRELEVANT (taking their kid away?!) she cries rape.

There are two important situations going on here, and both are conflicting.

On one hand; You have a very serious situation in which is it or is it not okay, to consent to Sex in advance. And on the other; the Crying rape situation, because the "victim" is upset over something that has no direct relation to the crime being accused of.

First the Advanced Consent: I DO NOT believe this should be allowed. Especially considering, as being pointed out, once an individual is unconscious they have no sure understanding of what actions are being taken. (unless a recording is being made, of course) Some people just crave deeper sexual activity, however there must be a line drawn and safety measures taken. Sex with an unconscious body is not what I'd consider 100% safe, for the individual who's unconscious.

Second, the Crying Wolf Situation: As in relation to the story in the first post.. I believe all charges should be dropped against the guy, because in the end the Woman even acknowledged total agreement (even after the actions had happened) and only cried rape because of believing he'd seek full custody of their child.

Clearly this shows she was NOT raped. She accepted the acts. Wanted the acts. And knew she could play a Court System like a fiddle, through the rape crime, to make sure the irrelevant actions wouldn't be taken by the guy. (In this case, custody of the child being taken away from the Mother)

This is why proving Rape is such a hard thing to do in selective cases, because all any Woman has to do is cry it.. and suddenly its a strong possibility it happened.
 
Did the courts decide proving rape wasn't hard enough or something?
Given that in a court of law, proof has to be absolute and undeniable, yes. hfact that she gave consent to the act, and did not object to it is more than enough to make it impossible to prove rape definately, beyond all reasonable doubt occured. THis means he should be let off the hook.
Advanced consent' should not be allowed if you're then unconcious and don't know what's happening.
Probably not. However if she was aware of the risk of going unconcious when discussing the act and didn't say anything along the lines of 'please dont keep going if I pass out' it's not definately rape. How should he know she doesn't want to be biggered whilst unconcious? she didn't tell him no, either in advance or (obvously) during. Doesn't make it any less wierd to me though.
Not speaking for this individual case, the thing is - how easy is it for a (usually) guy to say "We discussed this beforehand, she wanted sex, she gave me consent in advance", when a woman wakes up to find him having sex with her?
In this case though, they were in a long term relationship and obviously HAD discussed it. It's not as if she hadn't expected to go unconcious and being penetrated by a phallus.
Now, she can of course state the opposite (Who knows what really happened?),
making the absolute proof nogh impossible
but with an often unanimous verdict needed to convict someone, there's a very, very good chance rapists can use this as an excuse and get away with rape.
Yes there is. However, it's not as if rapists, and other assorted criminals haven't used ropey excuses in the past in desparate attempts to get let off (see: wearing provocative clothing).
 
Given that in a court of law, proof has to be absolute and undeniable, yes. hfact that she gave consent to the act, and did not object to it is more than enough to make it impossible to prove rape definately, beyond all reasonable doubt occured. THis means he should be let off the hook.

It is almost, if not completely impossible, to ever 'prove' a rape happened. I'm not speaking about this case individually, as I believe she admitted lying, or something similar? I am, however, going by the precedent this case could set for future cases. Is it going to be the case now that a man can have sex with an unconscious woman, and, if he says she consented before the intercourse took place, he'd be free to go? Do you not see a problem with that?

Probably not. However if she was aware of the risk of going unconcious when discussing the act and didn't say anything along the lines of 'please dont keep going if I pass out' it's not definately rape. How should he know she doesn't want to be biggered whilst unconcious? she didn't tell him no, either in advance or (obvously) during. Doesn't make it any less wierd to me though.

As the law stands at the moment, you need to be able to consent to sex - as you're unconscious, you can't do that. Again, not this particular case, a generalisation. Allowing 'advanced consent' will just make it so much easier for people to be found not guilty of an offence they did commit. The only way to make the law as clear as can be, it how it currently is. There is WAY too many issues in allowing advanced consent in situations like this.

In this case though, they were in a long term relationship and obviously HAD discussed it. It's not as if she hadn't expected to go unconcious and being penetrated by a phallus.

Whether she expected to go unconscious, who knows? I'm not taking either side here - I think advanced consent as a legal concept is very, very wrong. However she's admitted to her story not being strictly true, so I'm not arguing THIS man should be in prison.


making the absolute proof nogh impossible Yes there is. However, it's not as if rapists, and other assorted criminals haven't used ropey excuses in the past in desparate attempts to get let off (see: wearing provocative clothing).

So why give them another bullshit excuse? What a person was wearing at the time of a sexual assault shouldn't even be brought up in court, and it disgusts me when it is.
 
Anyone ever take into consideration that neither of these people should be taken seriously? In our anti-male world it is true, all a woman must do is claim the evil man violated her precious body with his devil dick, and off to jail you go, branded as a rapist. Also, did this chick think she was dealing with someone who was mentally stable or regular? Obviously not. I'm sorry but obviously something is wrong with you if your are into doing the things they were doing, S&M, "erotic asphyxiation", all that stuff.

Common fucking sense should tip you off to that right away. The real moral of the story is that sexual perversion doesn't lead to any positive outcome, ANY form including homosexuality. That should all tell you right away, these are dysfunctional people who are fucked in the head, the guy probably is a rapist at heart which is why he gets off on doing the sick shit he does, and the girl is too fucking stupid to know otherwise. I think they should both be dropped in a lake with cinder blocks tied to their feet, do the world some good by getting rid of some of the deviate scum. One for being a big enough piece of shit to lie to authorities in order to fulfill a personal vendetta, the other for being a big enough piece of shit to get off by doing sick and perverted shit to another person, that actually goes for both.

But, oh no, we can't hold people to a moral standard, they might have to follow rules and we can't make people follow rules either, that requires obedience, and you can't make anyone obedient because they have "rights". Fuck me, that's bullshit and anyone with a brain knows it. Here's what I'd like to know, what happens and what is the excuse when later down the road this guy DOES rape someone, or kills someone because they were experimenting with "Erotic Asphyxiation", or goes to far with the S&M and causes someone serious trauma and injury? It's all ok right because "it's their right to be that way".

Or what about the girl? What's the excuse when she ends up seriously being a rape victim, or dying from being choked out, or dies from injuries sustained from mutilating her body or sustains other irreversible damages? "Oh we can't say anything, it's their "right". Well it's wrong, common sense tells us it's wrong, abnormal, unhealthy, and deranged. Here's a thought, maybe if that kind of shit wasn't condoned we wouldn't have a problem, Hence we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
 
As Will indicated earlier, the fact that she changed her story makes me extremely suspicious of the woman's motives. Innocent until proven guilty is a nice sentiment, but it's also one that's not always upheld by a majority of people. That's especially true when it comes to sexual assault. We've taken political correctness and gender sensitivity to levels that can make it extremely difficult for a man accused of sexual assault.

Only a few decades ago, rape wasn't considered to be that big of a deal as far as the courts went. It wasn't even until the mid 80s that spousal rape even became a crime in the United States. People actually thought for decades that a man couldn't sexually assault a woman that he was married to even if she said no. In an attempt to veer ourselves as far away from such a shameful legal history when it comes to sexual assault cases, we've veered too far in the other direction. Now, accusations of sexual assault can and have become a tool used by vindictive women against husbands and lovers. It's actually even become common strategy for women to claim sexual abuse at the hands of their husbands while going through a divorce. Even if no abuse took place, the accusation is already out there and that can be almost as damaging to a man's character and reputation as if he'd actually been convicted of something. Men have even been sent to prison for rape with nothing more than "he said, she said" testimony. There are examples of men that have literally spent decades in prison for rape only to be exhonorated due to the introduction of DNA testing.

Anyhow, I've gone off on a bit of a rant. When it comes to Advanced Consent, it's far too gray of an area and it's something that can easily be twisted into a horrible weapon. I understand that some people prefer sexual activity that's a little more on the outer fringes, but there have to be some lines drawn in the sand as to what can be considered safe.
 
Anyone ever take into consideration that neither of these people should be taken seriously?
If I was going to ask for sex advice, they wouldnt be at the top of my list, let me put it this way.
In our anti-male world it is true
WHAT!? You're going to claim that our current society is Anti-male? Are you taking the piss or are you high?
all a woman must do is claim the evil man violated her precious body with his devil dick, and off to jail you go, branded as a rapist.
Right, this has nothing to do with people being led by emotions. People trust other people more than any other evidence. It's why witness testmonies, while incredably unreliable are taken into consideration more than science. Hence why a crying woman with more holes in her story than swiss cheese can successfully get a 'rapist' convicted despite overwhelming evidence. Emotions also got OJ off.
Also, did this chick think she was dealing with someone who was mentally stable or regular?
...What goes on in the bedroom is of no concern of the state. and since when did SNM become a symptom of mental instability. Especially considering that this was sometihng they'd done in the past, discussed, and she only cried rape because she thought he was ditching her.
Obviously not. I'm sorry but obviously something is wrong with you if your are into doing the things they were doing, S&M, "erotic asphyxiation", all that stuff.
for the love of god Gamerage, what people are into sexually has nothing to do with mental stability. The father of cryptoanalysis was gay, Heisenburg came up with his uncertainty principle whilst having sex with his mistress. Not to mention other great people whose sexual preferences were no impediment to their ability to think.
Common fucking sense should tip you off to that right away.
that they're sexual deviants? yes. But what the fuck has enjoying suffocation got to do with what they're like outside of the bedroom?
The real moral of the story is that sexual perversion doesn't lead to any positive outcome, ANY form including homosexuality.
To repeat what I said at the start of this post, WHAT!? Sexuality has got absolutely nothing do so with mental health.
That should all tell you right away, these are dysfunctional people who are fucked in the head
Seriously, you're classing homosexuals, who are of otherwise excelent mental health are 'sick in the head' for what isn't a choice for them? For fucks sake man get your brain out of the ninteen fifties. There's a reason that gay people are (slowly) getitng the same rights as straight people. Because there's nothing wrong with them, there's nothing that needs to be fixed. They're just attracted to a different gender than you. discrimination against homosexuals is akin to discrimination against left handers. It's about as much of a choise, and about as important outside of very specific circumstances.
the guy probably is a rapist at heart which is why he gets off on doing the sick shit he does
well, considering that he (consentually) had sex with the woman whilst she was unconcious, and was probably enjoying it I'd say that he does get off on it. use your own fucking common sence and reading comprehension skills. That does NOT make him a rapist though. Because he isn't doing this stuff without her consent, and if she had said the safety words, would presumably have stopped. ANd the fact that they'd done it before with no problems indicates that she probably doesn't mind it either. Or that she's scared of the rapist, but then she's have stuck to her story in the witness box.
and the girl is too fucking stupid to know otherwise.
Obviously she either doesn't think he's a rapist, or she doesn't think that consentual errotic asphysiation is tanamount to rape.
I think they should both be dropped in a lake with cinder blocks tied to their feet, do the world some good by getting rid of some of the deviate scum.
for the third time. WHAT!? Gamerage, what fucking buisness of oyurs is it what to people do in their bedrooms? And what the fuck makes you think that deviating from the sexual norm should be a capital offence? WHat the fuck? I'm not even going to begin telling you what's ficked up about that.
One for being a big enough piece of shit to lie to authorities in order to fulfill a personal vendetta
...you're seriously saying that purjory should be a capital offence?
the other for being a big enough piece of shit to get off by doing sick and perverted shit to another person, that actually goes for both.
Game, first off if you think that deviants are the scum of the earth and should be forcibly removed from life you're more fucked up than you think they are. Secondly, what sorts of sexual practice would be worthy of drowning? Obviously hardcore SNM is, Homosexuality too I imagine. Would mild bondage, or a bit of apanking be ok? And what about non-vaginal heterosexual sex? Would anal with your wife warrent drowning, or two just a beating?

I'm going to end this post here, because your post has ligitimately angered me, and I dont want to read anymore of the bullshit contained within it at this time of night (1:52). I may do the rest of your post tommorow.
 
WHAT!? You're going to claim that our current society is Anti-male? Are you taking the piss or are you high?

Excuse I must clarify that, Anti-White male. I was neither pissing or high when I said this, although I might have enjoyed either at some point afterward.


Right, this has nothing to do with people being led by emotions. People trust other people more than any other evidence. It's why witness testmonies, while incredably unreliable are taken into consideration more than science. Hence why a crying woman with more holes in her story than swiss cheese can successfully get a 'rapist' convicted despite overwhelming evidence. Emotions also got OJ off.

So I take it your still with me at this point, ok.

What goes on in the bedroom is of no concern of the state. and since when did SNM become a symptom of mental instability. Especially considering that this was something they'd done in the past, discussed, and she only cried rape because she thought he was ditching her.


What goes on in the bedroom is a reflection of a person inside. Sex is a form of expression, not an involuntary reaction or something. That's what separates us from animals, the ability to think rather than act purely on instinct. Just for your information, sadomasochism IS linked to mental illness, since you don't seem to really know what it is anyways here's a link, go look for yourself, it says it in plain black and white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism

As I was saying, sex is a form of expression, an expression of emotions. What emotions and desires someone carries out in the bedroom is a good look inside of the person, giving you a good indication of what kind of mental and emotional state they are in. Someone who in unhinged for example might be into inflicting pain onto another person, and having the same done to them. What about that doesn't tell you there is something deeply and emotionally wrong with someone absolutely floors me.


for the love of god Gamerage, what people are into sexually has nothing to do with mental stability. The father of cryptoanalysis was gay, Heisenberg came up with his uncertainty principle whilst having sex with his mistress. Not to mention other great people whose sexual preferences were no impediment to their ability to think.


For the love of God Remix, what people are into sexually most certainly does have plenty to do with mental stability. That has been established. The father of cryptoanalysis being gay, and Heisenberg cheating on his wife have nothing to do with anything I was saying.

I will however point out more deviate activity revolving around sex as you noted with Heisenberg. His infidelity is a reflection of him inside, showing that he is a dishonest and disloyal man, how is that not a reflection of a persons mentality? I never said any of this had to do with intelligence either, you assumed that's what I meant as you took the liberty of doing over and over throughout your whole post. Intelligence and morality are obviously two different things as shown by your own example, both of those people and you claim many more, were obviously very smart, however they were also immoral in their sexual relations, one for sure.


that they're sexual deviants? yes. But what the fuck has enjoying suffocation got to do with what they're like outside of the bedroom?

Well take a good long look at the lists of serial killer, rapist, and so on who coincidently all had tendencies of the same sexual urges and desires. Bundy, Dahmer, Gacey, Ed Gein, Albert Fish, David Berkowitz, Gary Ridgway, does that paint a clear enough picture for you.

To repeat what I said at the start of this post, WHAT!? Sexuality has got absolutely nothing do so with mental health.

Again, do the research. Mental illness has been established in the professional community as being not only a cause but a by product of homosexuality, as has alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicide which all come down to choice, as does homosexuality itself. Enough Said.

Seriously, you're classing homosexuals, who are of otherwise excellent mental health are 'sick in the head' for what isn't a choice for them? For fucks sake man get your brain out of the nineteen fifties. There's a reason that gay people are (slowly) getting the same rights as straight people. Because there's nothing wrong with them there's nothing that needs to be fixed.

Actually you were doing that, I was referring to the two people in the situation we were discussing. I didn't even mention homosexuals until later when making a completely different point. On the contrary though, as noted earlier mental illness and homosexuality go hand in hand. That doesn't mean they aren't smart, or that they can't function in society. It means that somewhere along the way in their life, something emotionally or mentally happened to them, causing them to choose that lifestyle. Often times it is as a result of an emotional or chemical imbalance, that is not my word, that is science. Do the work yourself and find out.

They're just attracted to a different gender than you. discrimination against homosexuals is akin to discrimination against left handers. It's about as much of a choice, and about as important outside of very specific circumstances.

Once more, it is a choice, and by the way I'm not in a debate over that fact either. It's a lot more important than you make it out to be as well. If it wasn't you and others wouldn't stand against and for it. It's about a choice of lifestyle, and some lifestyles that are unhealthy such as that encouraged by homosexuality which is unhealthy on a number of levels, shouldn't be promoted or looked on as passe.

well, considering that he (consentually) had sex with the woman whilst she was unconcious, and was probably enjoying it I'd say that he does get off on it. use your own fucking common sence and reading comprehension skills. That does NOT make him a rapist though. Because he isn't doing this stuff without her consent, and if she had said the safety words, would presumably have stopped. ANd the fact that they'd done it before with no problems indicates that she probably doesn't mind it either. Or that she's scared of the rapist, but then she's have stuck to her story in the witness box.

Once again, I did not say that the guy absolutely was a rapist. I said that he was probably a rapist at heart a rapist based on the things he enjoys doing to women which are consistent with raping a women. He has an alternative to raping unwilling women, he finds women who are completely willing. That doesn't change the gears turning in his head, or lack thereof in the female partaker.

Doesn't that say something too? Why would a woman want someone to suffocate them, mutilate their bodies, and play out fantasies like that on them? Doesn't someone wanting people to do that to them tell you something is wrong with them? Or a man wanting another man to sodomize him? Doesn't that trip the red flag in your head that tells you "Hey there's something wrong with that" or "That person has some fucking issues." ? How the fuck am I the crazy one for thinking there is something wrong with all that?

Obviously she either doesn't think he's a rapist, or she doesn't think that consensual erotic asphyxiation is tantamount to rape.

First of all, use spell check. I have been correcting all your errors to be nice, and display your quotes respectfully. Secondly, see the above paragraph for this one.


for the third time. WHAT!? Gamerage, what fucking buisness of oyurs is it what to people do in their bedrooms?


I never said it was my business, I stated my opinion on it. Big Difference!!!


And what the fuck makes you think that deviating from the sexual norm should be a capital offence? WHat the fuck? I'm not even going to begin telling you what's ficked up about that.

I'll tell you, when it leads to rape how about that? Or sexual assault of some kind, is pedophilia ok too that's a sexual preference too? What's the big deal it's only kids and their fragile psyche? Are you fucking kidding me man!!!!???? Sex Crimes come in all colors, shapes, and sizes as well as situations. Isn't the fact that a lot of it is unnecessarily dangerous enough? We don't let people kill themselves, so why let them kill themselves in another way, through choosing a dysfunctional destructive lifestyle? I wasn't actually suggesting anything be a capital crime or anything either, just that sex offenders of whatever type need to be dealt with much more seriously and strictly. I just made the point in a very bold statement which I understand if you were thrown off by.

I am sorry, but when people show they can't make the right choices, that means they have to be made for them. A reflection of this ideology is the legal system, when you make bad choices you are punished until you figure out to make the right choices. If you don't figure it out, you will continually be punished. I'm not saying punish homosexuals for being homosexual, but rather educate people on the truths of it to prevent them from engaging in that lifestyle. The non violent are not the big concern, its people like this J.A. guy, and people into that shit that are violent that I think need some therapy or a hug or something.



you're seriously saying that perjury should be a capital offense?

No that's not what I was saying, I was just making it a point that the lady should have at least faced some kind of repercussions due to her perjury. Stop misrepresenting what I am saying.



Game, first off if you think that deviants are the scum of the earth and should be forcibly removed from life you're more fucked up than you think they are.


Once again I wasn't saying that literally, you need to figure out how to determine when someone is serious or not. I feel like Eminem here, people wrongly taking some of the shit I say serious, and missing the serious parts. I was merely expressing once again that I think punishment and handling of people who like committing sex crimes against the willing or unwilling be handled more seriously.

I bet you if the government started hanging rapists, pedophiles, and murderers in public all of the sudden you'd see that people weren't doing that shit anymore. That's because they'd get the point "We don't fuck around here", and once they knew "Oh Fuck, I'm going to get hung for that shit." I bet you the numbers on those types of crimes plummets. But as is these people get slaps on the wrists, put on a list, and sent back out on the streets to do the same things again.


Secondly, what sorts of sexual practice would be worthy of drowning?

For the umpteenth time, that wasn't what I was saying literally.


Obviously hardcore SNM is, Homosexuality too I imagine. Would mild bondage, or a bit of apanking be ok? And what about non-vaginal heterosexual sex? Would anal with your wife warrent drowning, or two just a beating?

I don't approve of any of that for starters, especially sodomy. I like how you tried to rephrase the term to "Non-Vaginal heterosexual sex", that's what all the sympathizers do, try to redefine the words to make all of that shit "OK" and morally acceptable. Did it ever occur to you that if it was ok you wouldn't need to defend those actions? Ever? FUCK MAN!!!!

This is so frustrating, how this shit doesn't register with you and so many others is a mystery. I don't get it. Most of this is common sense stuff, how are you and so many lacking of it? I don't think that anyone should be treated like shit because of sexual preference, I have never treated a gay person wrong in my entire life, and have had plenty of gay friends that were both male and female. I have nothing against the person, just some of the choices they make.

When talking about the real violent weird shit like Sadism and Masochism, I think those people have some real issues that need worked out, and that their practices in the bedroom should be discouraged in any way possible for obvious reasons. Unfortunately as I noted, people who are into that kind of thing generally tend to have a lot darker deeper issues. The very nature of S&M is to commit acts of violence against the body of another, that doesn't need to be embraced or morally and socially accepted. It walks a very thin line of legality as is, and when it gets out of control and people die or are hurt weather they were unwilling or willing, there should be consequences and probably treatment. What is so crazy about that?
 
In our anti-male world it is true, all a woman must do is claim the evil man violated her precious body with his devil dick, and off to jail you go, branded as a rapist.

I liked you, until I read this sentence. It is, EASILY, the biggest load of bullshit the Cigar Lounge has ever seen, and we've had people try and defend being pro-life in here. The world ISN'T anti-male, and definitely isn't in a rape trial. It's SO anti-female I can't even laugh at the stupidity. Being a female rape victim in court is completely humiliating and down-grading - it makes you feel at fault, guilty, shameful...I can go on, and on. The questioning female rape victims get in court are what stops so many people reporting the problem. The way they look at the woman, the way they ask what she was wearing, the way they LOOK at her when she says she had a dress on, to make her feel even more at fault!

Look at this pretend scenario. The man has just been mugged, lets say he's being questioned in court.

Lawyer: So, what were you wearing at the time of the attack?
Victim: A suit from a meeting, some black shoes.
Lawyer: Would you say it was an expensive suit?
Victim: It was quite expensive, yes.
Lawyer: ...Really now? And, what about other items? Watch?
Victim: Yes, I was wearing watch. Listening to my Ipod touch.
Lawyer: Interesting. And did you know the area the attack happened in?
Victim: Yes, I live close by.
Lawyer: So, knowing the area has a high crime rate, you went into the area, showing you were wealthy, and had the latest merchandise?

This, would NEVER happen for a case on street robbery. However, it is very, very common for a trial on rape.

The conviction rate for rape, in England, is around 5%. Now, I'm not saying all 95% other cases were real rape cases, but also in no way are they all lies. The system works AGAINST females in every possible way it could.
 
I liked you, until I read this sentence. It is, EASILY, the biggest load of bullshit the Cigar Lounge has ever seen, and we've had people try and defend being pro-life in here.

Well that's too bad I guess, I've never had a problem with you. It's too bad that you were apparently so hung up on that little sentence alone that you missed the other things I said, none of which were loads of shit. Abortion is a whole other topic that you have obviously shown your stance on as well. On the matter I don't think using it as a form of birth control is right, but there are some situations where it might be the lesser of two evils for the record, is it ok for me to think that? Just checking with you, since apparently I have to think what you do for my thoughts to count.

The world ISN'T anti-male

Excuse me, I guess I forgot women are more oppressed than the Jews everywhere else in the world. Here is America that is most definitely the case, and that is the way it goes more often than not. Remember, the incident took place in Canada, they let the guy off. Based only on the fact that the woman recanted her original testimony would he have a chance of getting by with that here, and that doesn't guarantee anything. If a woman calls the police and says you hit her, you go to jail without proof, on her word alone.

I have seen it happen to people. I know someone who once went to jail for throwing a Big Mac at his girlfriend, he got charged with Assault and Battery, don't even try to tell me the law isn't fucking biased against men. In the opposite situation, I have seen where nothing happens to the girl, and the guy goes to jail anyways. In child custody disputes the bias is even more heavily reflected as well, don't try to pull that shit with me ok. I have seen how it is, claim whatever you will about how horrible it is to partake in the process of bringing your attacker to justice and go cry in your kool-aid about the whole fucking thing.


It's SO anti-female I can't even laugh at the stupidity.

I find myself in the same predicament in regards to what you pass off as some kind of intelligent thought and quirky statement.

Being a female rape victim in court is completely humiliating and down-grading

So, is it somehow supposed to be any less humiliating for a man in the same situation? Probably worse because of the emasculation that would make a man feel, so what are you bitching about? Don't give me this sob story shit about the walking martyrs that are apparently the female race.


The conviction rate for rape, in England, is around 5%. Now, I'm not saying all 95% other cases were real rape cases, but also in no way are they all lies.


You know why, because of how many women DO lie about it out of vengeance and so on. You want to blame anyone don't blame the system, look right in the mirror. It's women who have caused said issue by lying about it constantly, and I do agree though that it is very unfortunate for those with real cases. Still, that's not the fault of the system. If the same type of people keep lying to you about the same thing, odds are you're not going to keep believing them as often.

The system works AGAINST females in every possible way it could.

Well, that's because your in England. Sorry about your luck there, but over here let me assure you the problem is completely the other way around. Besides I already established that it is the fault of women themselves that more convictions don't occur. Don't think that I believe it is ok for all those women to go without justice being sought out either. If you had actually read my post rather than taking issue with the first thing you could, you'd have seen where I talked quite a bit about making the sentences worse for sex offenders of all kinds so lay off my ass, here's a tissue for your issue, cry me a river.
 
Well that's too bad I guess, I've never had a problem with you.

Good, because I actually do like you, I just literally can not get over the fact some people think the world is anti-male, in this sense.

It's too bad that you were apparently so hung up on that little sentence alone that you missed the other things I said, none of which were loads of shit. Abortion is a whole other topic that you have obviously shown your stance on as well. On the matter I don't think using it as a form of birth control is right, but there are some situations where it might be the lesser of two evils for the record, is it ok for me to think that?

Don't want it illegal, and I don't care what your other views on it are.

Just checking with you, since apparently I have to think what you do for my thoughts to count.

There's a reason this forum was before called the HBK-aholic Centre for Applied Ethics. No, really, it was.

Excuse me, I guess I forgot women are more oppressed than the Jews everywhere else in the world.

Jews? I have no clue what you're talking about, or how it fits into our debate at all.

Here is America that is most definitely the case, and that is the way it goes more often than not. Remember, the incident took place in Canada, they let the guy off. Based only on the fact that the woman recanted her original testimony would he have a chance of getting by with that here, and that doesn't guarantee anything. If a woman calls the police and says you hit her, you go to jail without proof, on her word alone.

I'm not overly familiar with Canada's justice system, so forgive me. However, I'm sure to be found guilty of an offence, there needs to be evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt the offence was committed. And if that isn't the case in Canada, something needs to be changed. However that does not refute my original point that to be found guilty of rape is EXTREMELY difficult, and it is in no way anti-male.

I have seen it happen to people. I know someone who once went to jail for throwing a Big Mac at his girlfriend, he got charged with Assault and Battery, don't even try to tell me the law isn't fucking biased against men.
In the opposite situation, I have seen where nothing happens to the girl, and the guy goes to jail anyways. In child custody disputes the bias is even more heavily reflected as well, don't try to pull that shit with me ok. I have seen how it is, claim whatever you will about how horrible it is to partake in the process of bringing your attacker to justice and go cry in your kool-aid about the whole fucking thing.

Are you trying to be an ass or just coming off as one? You've not shown AT ALL how a rape trial is anti-male. EVERYTHING that is said is to make the female rape victim seem at fault. "OH MY GOD she wore a dress so that I could see her knees, she wanted sex!" Literally, this is brought up. In a world where a rapist can use dress and alcohol intake to get off of a rape charge, you're telling me the system is anti-male? You have no idea what you're talking about here, at all. Unless of course you've been involved in a trial?

I find myself in the same predicament in regards to what you pass off as some kind of intelligent thought and quirky statement.

Which parts of what I've said are untrue? That proving rape is extremely difficult? That victims are made to feel guilty and humiliated? That what a woman was wearing at the time of an attack is brought up in court?

So, is it somehow supposed to be any less humiliating for a man in the same situation? Probably worse because of the emasculation that would make a man feel, so what are you bitching about? Don't give me this sob story shit about the walking martyrs that are apparently the female race.

Boo fucking hoo, the rapist feels emasculated? GOOD! We should be shooting them as they're found guilty. Are you really telling us we should feel sorry for rapists?


You know why, because of how many women DO lie about it out of vengeance and so on. You want to blame anyone don't blame the system, look right in the mirror. It's women who have caused said issue by lying about it constantly, and I do agree though that it is very unfortunate for those with real cases. Still, that's not the fault of the system. If the same type of people keep lying to you about the same thing, odds are you're not going to keep believing them as often.

This, right here, proves my point. What 'type of people'? A blonde girl who has a dress on maybe? If she gets raped, we're not going to believe her?

Don't get me wrong, I hate people who lie about rape as much as rapists themselves, and if they admit to lying, they should be given a very long sentence. But it still doesn't explain how, in court, it's okay to discuss dress, sexual history and make the female victim feel guilty and worthless.

Well, that's because your in England. Sorry about your luck there, but over here let me assure you the problem is completely the other way around. Besides I already established that it is the fault of women themselves that more convictions don't occur. Don't think that I believe it is ok for all those women to go without justice being sought out either. If you had actually read my post rather than taking issue with the first thing you could, you'd have seen where I talked quite a bit about making the sentences worse for sex offenders of all kinds so lay off my ass, here's a tissue for your issue, cry me a river.

Well I'm not exactly going to debate the parts of your post I agree with, am I? It is NOT the fault of women that more convictions don't occur, it's the fault of the courts (A majority male run institution, I might add) who believe it's okay to bring up things which have no bearing on the case. A 5% conviction rate is pathetic.
 
This is fun just so you know, I am enjoying this thoroughly.


Good, because I actually do like you, I just literally can not get over the fact some people think the world is anti-male, in this sense.

Well I don't see a need for there to be a problem which is why I responded. Let's cut the shit and shoot straight here though, maybe in your part of the world what you are saying is highly relevant, but the complete opposite in this part of the world is equally as relevant.


There's a reason this forum was before called the HBK-aholic Centre for Applied Ethics. No, really, it was.

That doesn't surprise me somehow.

Jews? I have no clue what you're talking about, or how it fits into our debate at all.

Sarcasm. Your arguing that women are treated so unfairly, as have been the Jews in history, lol, funny, ha ha, get it?

I'm not overly familiar with Canada's justice system, so forgive me. However, I'm sure to be found guilty of an offense, there needs to be evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt the offence was committed.

Not so much the case in America sister, specifically Iowa. As I said, it is not uncommon for a woman to falsely report domestic abuses and so on without being able to prove it, and the accused man goes to jail as a result. How that is not the complete opposite of what you are claiming is beyond me. I am not familiar with Canada law either so don't feel bad, but I do know how things work here in America and I tell you no lies my friend, none.

And if that isn't the case in Canada, something needs to be changed. However that does not refute my original point that to be found guilty of rape is EXTREMELY difficult, and it is in no way anti-male.

I made it a point to point out that the scenario took place in Canada because you are in England and what you claim may be the case there, but may not be so in Canada, and sure as hell isn't in the U.S. where is most certainly is anti-male now days.


Are you trying to be an ass or just coming off as one?

Just coming off as one, I have a way of doing that if you haven't noticed.


You've not shown AT ALL how a rape trial is anti-male. EVERYTHING that is said is to make the female rape victim seem at fault. "OH MY GOD she wore a dress so that I could see her knees, she wanted sex!" Literally, this is brought up. In a world where a rapist can use dress and alcohol intake to get off of a rape charge, you're telling me the system is anti-male? You have no idea what you're talking about here, at all. Unless of course you've been involved in a trial?

Here's one thing for starters, I never said a rape trial was anti male, I said from the git go, that the world(referring to my part of the world mostly) has become anti male, you keep going back to this one point about a rape case thing and I've got something for you there too. Other than that it seems you have no idea what you are talking about because of that. And FYI, I was a debate prodigy in High School, Mock Trial was my bitch, and we covered rape cases among a slew of others.

I know that there are some asshole lawyers who do that kind of thing in cases sometimes, but it's a legal tactic to prove or disprove the legitimacy of the claim. Your assuming that is the case every time and that that is the sole purpose of having a victim give their testimony. I'm sorry but if a defendant is innocent it's kind of a part of the defenses strategy, unfortunately it works for some of the guilty as does prosecution sometimes convict an innocent man. It's a two way street no matter how much you try to argue otherwise though. What about when the innocent man is on the stand and the prosecutor does the same thing to him, badgering the witness and twisting the meanings of everything to make him look guilty? Oh that doesn't matter does it because that apparently never happens? That's bullshit, and you know it.

Which parts of what I've said are untrue? That proving rape is extremely difficult? That victims are made to feel guilty and humiliated? That what a woman was wearing at the time of an attack is brought up in court?

Relevance and intent are highly embellished. It's not always difficult to prove, even though you act like it's trying to prove the existence of God ok. When cross examining a victim in a rape case, every detail is going to be covered, no matter what. If the defense uses some of them to do as you say, that is shitty, and sure it's not right but that's only if the person isn't lying. This tactic a lot of times can make a liar crack and admit the truth as it did in the case in Canada we have been discussing. It doesn't mean that that is the case every time, or that the system is anti female either. It proves that the court doesn't discriminate, and all parties will be investigated to find the truth of matters in a trial.


Boo fucking hoo, the rapist feels emasculated? GOOD! We should be shooting them as they're found guilty. Are you really telling us we should feel sorry for rapists?

You couldn't have completely missed what I was saying any more than right here. I was talking about MALE RAPE VICTIMS!!!!! Not the rapers, what kind of fucking loon do you think I am? I was saying it's no less humiliating and degrading for a man who has been raped, and has to testify and face the same criticism and questioning. And, guess what? The legit number of those cases are skyrocketing as well so don't say it's uncommon, as it is becoming every bit as common.

Care to guess how much justice comes from those cases for the male victims? Jack shit. When a male rape victim has to admit that they became aroused against their will, the same argument "you got a boner so you wanted it" comes up, don't try to throw a pitty party for women. Men get the same treatment and their cases are looked at as less legitimate because men are typically stronger than women and so the idea is that you could have stopped it if you wanted but that isn't necessarily true. I have seen plenty of women bigger than me that if they tried to rape me I'd be screwed unless I was going to catch a case and beat the big bitch down, and I'm a big guy. So are you going to go trying to support male rape victims and talk about how anti-male the system really is? No, of course not, why would anyone try to help and support men, you don't care about that.


This, right here, proves my point. What 'type of people'?

That proves nothing except that once again the point went over your head, and you made another irrelevant statement like it proved something. I was making a general example saying "If the same group of people lied to you, you would stop believing them after some time". That could be men, women, children, anyone. The point is a consistent lie is being told by a group of people(Women in this case) and the outcome is that it is harder to prove, but is still not the fault of the courts because just as much as you claim they are so willing to let people off, they are also trying to make sure that the innocent aren't convicted either which is the only fair way you can do it. It's not perfect but nothing is. Some people will get off of a charge and more than likely be caught at a later date, the innocent will go and not have to be in prison, simple as that.


Don't get me wrong, I hate people who lie about rape as much as rapists themselves, and if they admit to lying, they should be given a very long sentence. But it still doesn't explain how, in court, it's okay to discuss dress, sexual history and make the female victim feel guilty and worthless.

I already explained this but I will go over it again briefly. This is a method of questioning meant to help determine the truthfulness of the victim. Depending on a persons reaction to questions, their history, and their story, you can better determine if this person made it up, it lying or otherwise.

If that is too much to ask than you can't be satisfied. Cross examination is apart of the process, if you can't answer the questions, I guess you can't support your case. You have this opinion, this view that the purpose is to "Make the woman feel worthless, and make her look like she wanted it" but a defense attorneys job is to try and find any loophole in a case, and more than just the woman has to testify, you act like that's the only part of the trial, it's just a chance for someone to degrade a woman in another way or something. Well, that's a crock and anyone not looking at it with a bias can clearly see that.


Well I'm not exactly going to debate the parts of your post I agree with, am I?

I don't expect you to debate what you agree with, but when you leave out information that I had that supports my argument as if you didn't even see it that just makes it arduous for me to have to reiterative and point out.

It is NOT the fault of women that more convictions don't occur, it's the fault of the courts (A majority male run institution, I might add) who believe it's okay to bring up things which have no bearing on the case. A 5% conviction rate is pathetic.

When cases are being thrown out left and right because a lot of them are found to be falsely reported, that most definitely is the fault of women. The courts being mainly male is of no consequence to that outcome, as much as you'd like to front that as a valid excuse, that doesn't cut it. Determining the truth which has a large bearing on the case.

While I agree that a 5% conviction rate is pathetic, I might also add that that is your country not mine, ok. We left England because of shit like that(unfair trials leading to unfair execution for not following the church of King George). In my country women are greatly favored in matters of the law as it pertains to them being victimized in any way by men, and as noted already they don't exactly make a great effort to prove a mans innocence.

It's much more profitable to make them go to jail or prison and pay for that, then be on parole or probation which is a trap to re-incarceration as well that you have to pay for being on, and then fines attached by the charges, and any state run classes you might have to take and pay for as well. No one cares if this happens to men so they get away with it all the time, and no one says anything about it. That's the way it is here, and I am pretty positive that it's not much different in a lot of other places where the governments are so liberal as they are here.

Thank you for this dance.
 
This is fun just so you know, I am enjoying this thoroughly.

Me too :)

Well I don't see a need for there to be a problem which is why I responded. Let's cut the shit and shoot straight here though, maybe in your part of the world what you are saying is highly relevant, but the complete opposite in this part of the world is equally as relevant.

Maybe, but if we look at it like that we can't debate, and this is fun.


That doesn't surprise me somehow.

It was so much fun.


Sarcasm. Your arguing that women are treated so unfairly, as have been the Jews in history, lol, funny, ha ha, get it?

Funny? Laughing? I'm not familiar with the concepts.
Not so much the case in America sister, specifically Iowa. As I said, it is not uncommon for a woman to falsely report domestic abuses and so on without being able to prove it, and the accused man goes to jail as a result. How that is not the complete opposite of what you are claiming is beyond me. I am not familiar with Canada law either so don't feel bad, but I do know how things work here in America and I tell you no lies my friend, none.

Well I was speaking specifically about rape cases, not having looked into domestic violence in as much detail. America need to change their justice system, if this is actually the case.


Just coming off as one, I have a way of doing that if you haven't noticed.

:)


Here's one thing for starters, I never said a rape trial was anti male, I said from the git go, that the world(referring to my part of the world mostly) has become anti male, you keep going back to this one point about a rape case thing and I've got something for you there too. Other than that it seems you have no idea what you are talking about because of that. And FYI, I was a debate prodigy in High School, Mock Trial was my bitch, and we covered rape cases among a slew of others

I'm referring to that specifically simply because the thread is surrounding sexual assault and I've looked into those cases more thoroughly than any other as part of my sociology course.

I know that there are some asshole lawyers who do that kind of thing in cases sometimes, but it's a legal tactic to prove or disprove the legitimacy of the claim.

I don't have a huge problem with questioning the victim - checking a story is crucial to ensure an innocent man isn't convicted and happens in trials for most crimes. However, it goes too far, in the treatment of the victim, in rape cases. Implying they are at fault, simply for wearing a low cut dress is not right in any sense, yet does still happen, and there is no real reason for that. Some lawyers work so hard to 'prove' the man is innocent, they attempt to persuade the jury by showing she 'asked for it' by what she was wearing. THAT is going too far and is why I see those cases as more anti-female than anti-male.

Your assuming that is the case every time and that that is the sole purpose of having a victim give their testimony. I'm sorry but if a defendant is innocent it's kind of a part of the defenses strategy, unfortunately it works for some of the guilty as does prosecution sometimes convict an innocent man. It's a two way street no matter how much you try to argue otherwise though. What about when the innocent man is on the stand and the prosecutor does the same thing to him, badgering the witness and twisting the meanings of everything to make him look guilty? Oh that doesn't matter does it because that apparently never happens? That's bullshit, and you know it.

The thing is, we can't stop trials altogether. If a person is found to be making it up, they should be sent to jail, I'm completely for that. Both should be questioned, it's a necessity to make the streets safer and law fairer. However, certain things don't need to be brought up, yet are used as a defence in some cases and that SHOULDN'T happen.


Relevance and intent are highly embellished. It's not always difficult to prove, even though you act like it's trying to prove the existence of God ok. When cross examining a victim in a rape case, every detail is going to be covered, no matter what. If the defense uses some of them to do as you say, that is shitty, and sure it's not right but that's only if the person isn't lying. This tactic a lot of times can make a liar crack and admit the truth as it did in the case in Canada we have been discussing. It doesn't mean that that is the case every time, or that the system is anti female either. It proves that the court doesn't discriminate, and all parties will be investigated to find the truth of matters in a trial.

Again, not saying anything is wrong with the investigation of a matter, I'm all for that. What I am NOT for, as I have stated, is treatment of a victim. I've heard the cross-examining of rape victims in court being described as 'the second rape' and it's true. Relevant issues should definitely be brought up to ensure a fair trial. What a woman was wearing, or whether she had a good sex life with her ex boyfriend are NOT relevant and shouldn't be mentioned.


You couldn't have completely missed what I was saying any more than right here. I was talking about MALE RAPE VICTIMS!!!!! Not the rapers, what kind of fucking loon do you think I am? I was saying it's no less humiliating and degrading for a man who has been raped, and has to testify and face the same criticism and questioning. And, guess what? The legit number of those cases are skyrocketing as well so don't say it's uncommon, as it is becoming every bit as common.

Care to guess how much justice comes from those cases for the male victims? Jack shit. When a male rape victim has to admit that they became aroused against their will, the same argument "you got a boner so you wanted it" comes up, don't try to throw a pitty party for women.Men get the same treatment and their cases are looked at as less legitimate because men are typically stronger than women and so the idea is that you could have stopped it if you wanted but that isn't necessarily true. I have seen plenty of women bigger than me that if they tried to rape me I'd be screwed unless I was going to catch a case and beat the big bitch down, and I'm a big guy. So are you going to go trying to support male rape victims and talk about how anti-male the system really is? No, of course not, why would anyone try to help and support men, you don't care about that.

Male rape victims are, in almost every case, raped by another male. I believe in England only one woman has ever been convicted of raping a man. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that it feels any worse if the victim is male, just that it isn't 'as common' and whether the courts are 'anti-male' aren't really relevant, as usually the victim and rapist are both male. If there are more cases, and therefore evidence of the treatment of male victims of female attackers, we can have this discussion. But not enough is known to really debate it.

I'm not condoning rape by women, in any sense, they are just as bad as male attackers and your last sentence of that quote is unbelievably stupid, and not what I was getting at - something I think you know. You may not have noticed, but I'm firmly against rape, by anyone, on anyone. But the majority of rape cases are male against female, and as such, we know more about the treatment of them. Very little is known about it the other way around.



That proves nothing except that once again the point went over your head, and you made another irrelevant statement like it proved something. I was making a general example saying "If the same group of people lied to you, you would stop believing them after some time". That could be men, women, children, anyone.

I know it 'could' mean anyone, I was using that group as an example being that stereotypically they're the most sexually promiscuous. It's unfair to generalise at all, which was my point. The 'if the same group...' thing, shouldn't even be an issue.

The point is a consistent lie is being told by a group of people(Women in this case) and the outcome is that it is harder to prove, but is still not the fault of the courts because just as much as you claim they are so willing to let people off, they are also trying to make sure that the innocent aren't convicted either which is the only fair way you can do it. It's not perfect but nothing is. Some people will get off of a charge and more than likely be caught at a later date, the innocent will go and not have to be in prison, simple as that.

Yes, after raping more women.

I already explained this but I will go over it again briefly. This is a method of questioning meant to help determine the truthfulness of the victim. Depending on a persons reaction to questions, their history, and their story, you can better determine if this person made it up, it lying or otherwise.

You can't though, with history, it has no bearing on anything. Questioning a persons story, I agree with as it's relevant to the individual case. Their history isn't.

If that is too much to ask than you can't be satisfied. Cross examination is apart of the process, if you can't answer the questions, I guess you can't support your case.

If I don't want to answer questions on WHY I was wearing a dress, that's not not supporting my case, that's it having no bearing on the case. If I can't answer questions on my sexual history, that's not not supporting my case, it's what the fuck does that have to with you? And if I can't answer questions after that, it's because you've already made me feel so guilty that I feel I won't be believed no matter what.

You have this opinion, this view that the purpose is to "Make the woman feel worthless, and make her look like she wanted it" but a defense attorneys job is to try and find any loophole in a case, and more than just the woman has to testify, you act like that's the only part of the trial, it's just a chance for someone to degrade a woman in another way or something. Well, that's a crock and anyone not looking at it with a bias can clearly see that.

It's not a 'crock' and anyone whose been in the situation will tell you that. It's not the only part of a trial, but it is the worst part, and shouldn't happen to the extent it does.
 
From a Political Correctness point of view, the white male is easily the least protected group but that is only because it remains the most powerful group in society.

As for the original topic, there is some credence to the argument that false claims from women regarding rape have done massive damage to the legal procedures protecting those women who have been the victims of an awful attack.

I do believe that advanced consent does exist and in a way some women do contribute to subsequent attacks. Crossed wires with regard to innocent flirting, particularly when there is alcohol involved, can see a woman make herself a target. However, just because a woman has dressed nicely should not take away from the fact that it is the rapist who has committed the crime. The argument that a woman has put herself into the position rarely holds any water.
 

Always glad to entertain a lady.

Maybe, but if we look at it like that we can't debate, and this is fun.

Well you can't fault the straight forward approach.

Well I was speaking specifically about rape cases, not having looked into domestic violence in as much detail. America need to change their justice system, if this is actually the case.

Yeah dude seriously, going to jail for assault and battery with a damn Big Mac? C'mon? Who's shittin' who there? In the domestic violence area more specifically where the bulk of the problem persists.

I'm referring to that specifically simply because the thread is surrounding sexual assault and I've looked into those cases more thoroughly than any other as part of my sociology course.

Yeah I took that class too. I raised question openly in class to a lot of the waaaay liberal crap they were trying to indoctrinate the students with. A lot of students thanked me after the class for speaking up against the shit they were pedaling and wanted to tell me that they agreed with me, and were glad someone spoke the truth. That's no bullshit, one of the proudest moments of my college career.

However, it goes too far, in the treatment of the victim, in rape cases. Implying they are at fault, simply for wearing a low cut dress is not right in any sense, yet does still happen, and there is no real reason for that. Some lawyers work so hard to 'prove' the man is innocent, they attempt to persuade the jury by showing she 'asked for it' by what she was wearing. THAT is going too far and is why I see those cases as more anti-female than anti-male.

No one is arguing that going too far in any case is ok. I am however saying that more often than not, that is not the case, especially here in the states. There are also a lot of public defenders who don't give a shit and don't fight their cases very strongly either, and that's wrong too. The thing is, there's no way to completely ensure that everything will be perfectly fair in every situation. Some lawyers are snakes, that's why lawyers in general are typically disliked. That is not the legal system though, that is the people manipulating the system, and no matter how you change it people will find a way to manipulate it.

The dress example, being at fault for dressing a certain way, I would argue has been used less often than you would like to admit, or could prove for that matter. It does have relevance though. That stuff has happened too, look at the Kobe Bryant case, or the Mike Tyson rape trial. Tyson got railroaded plain and simple, and Kobe just happened to be the last guy that chick slept with during the day. Kobe's career could have been ruined, and Tyson's was ruined basically. You think that the women who falsely accused them weren't trying to catch a case to get paid ? Obviously they were and they did. It's not so far fetched.

The reason it is to you though is obviously because that isn't you, and as a female you have more respect for yourself than that. Unfortunately though there are plenty of females who do that kind of stuff. There are certain types of guys who ruin things for the other type of guy as well. There is more level ground than what is first visible in this argument.

The thing is, we can't stop trials altogether.

Never suggested it.

Male rape victims are, in almost every case, raped by another male. I believe in England only one woman has ever been convicted of raping a man. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that it feels any worse if the victim is male, just that it isn't 'as common' and whether the courts are 'anti-male' aren't really relevant, as usually the victim and rapist are both male.


So if a man is raped by another man, it's not as big a deal because it is less common? Furthermore it's not as relevant, and it's not as humiliating and degrading for a man to have to answer the kind of questions you were referring to after being raped by another man, or if the courts are anti male ? Wow, that just ends it all right there. You've got to kidding me? What am I missing that makes that true somehow?

I'd say it's just as relevant, and in every way as humiliating and degrading for a man to have to live with being raped by another man, and also have someone attempt to turn the prey into the predator so to speak.

What confuses me is these statements here:

You may not have noticed, but I'm firmly against rape, by anyone, on anyone.

Ok, so then why are male rape cases less relevant again as you clearly stated earlier?........ Get the point now? I'm not saying one is particularly worse than the other, just that no one really has it worse than the other, we all have the equal opportunity to get screwed or treated badly, it's all the same. For all the talk about this group or that group being treated a certain way, I have this to say "It's life, no matter what group you are apart of, it does not matter. You are no more susceptible to harm or mistreatment than the next person. Get over it." Now, I don't mean to be insensitive to those who suffer, just those who play off of that suffering.


But the majority of rape cases are male against female, and as such, we know more about the treatment of them. Very little is known about it the other way around.

Even though the majority of cases are male against female, that doesn't make the cases with men any less relevant or fucked up. The fact that there isn't more known is pretty weak too.


I've heard the cross-examining of rape victims in court being described as 'the second rape' and it's true. Relevant issues should definitely be brought up to ensure a fair trial.

I have heard plenty about the "second rape" story and I don't deny the truth of that statement. I am still saying it is no less a second rape for a man in the same boat and as a result the female agenda you are representing is no more important.

What a woman was wearing, or whether she had a good sex life with her ex boyfriend are NOT relevant and shouldn't be mentioned.

Maybe not her sex life with her Ex, but what about anyone else? Under certain circumstances that may be very relevant for quite a few reasons. Asking someone whether or not they sleep around isn't completely invading their lives or something as you present it. Considering it's being done during a trial you should be ready to disclose any information asked of you. Besides, your not a lawyer are you? Have you analyzed the details of a million cases or something else that makes you an authority on what is and isn't relevant or who is relevant?

Yes, after raping more women.

Which is exactly why I was saying that they need to treat these cases more seriously.


The 'if the same group...' thing, shouldn't even be an issue.

But it is an issue. If a group of ten people all claim to have been punched in the face at some point in their lives or something and you found out 6 of 10 for sure were lying, why would you not be suspicious and cautious of the other 4? Unfortunately there have been a lot of women to discredit the ones who really have a case which means you have to treat all cases the same. If that means they are really intense that's a consequence of corruption, nothing more.


You can't though, with history, it has no bearing on anything. Questioning a persons story, I agree with as it's relevant to the individual case. Their history isn't.

Apparently though it does, once again in different circumstances that may be very relevant. You were jumping back and fourth here between the actual topic case, and cases in general though. It is arguable though that background questions about the people would be relevant to the topic case. Or does a persons past and lifestyle have nothing to do with the circumstances they face in life?


If I don't want to answer questions on WHY I was wearing a dress, that's not not supporting my case, that's it having no bearing on the case. If I can't answer questions on my sexual history, that's not not supporting my case, it's what the fuck does that have to with you? And if I can't answer questions after that, it's because you've already made me feel so guilty that I feel I won't be believed no matter what.


If you don't want to cooperate than maybe it isn't that big a deal to you anyways because if it was I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to face some tough questioning under the supervision of a court, with a lawyer supporting you as well. It's not like the fucking Salem Witch Trials or something. If they are asking you a question it has a point, and it has some kind of relevance. No attorney is going to ask a question that does literally no good to their case.
 
Yeah I took that class too. I raised question openly in class to a lot of the waaaay liberal crap they were trying to indoctrinate the students with. A lot of students thanked me after the class for speaking up against the shit they were pedaling and wanted to tell me that they agreed with me, and were glad someone spoke the truth. That's no bullshit, one of the proudest moments of my college career.

I'm not sure which liberal crap you mean. We discussed facts and case studies.

No one is arguing that going too far in any case is ok. I am however saying that more often than not, that is not the case, especially here in the states. There are also a lot of public defenders who don't give a shit and don't fight their cases very strongly either, and that's wrong too. The thing is, there's no way to completely ensure that everything will be perfectly fair in every situation. Some lawyers are snakes, that's why lawyers in general are typically disliked. That is not the legal system though, that is the people manipulating the system, and no matter how you change it people will find a way to manipulate it.

The dress example, being at fault for dressing a certain way, I would argue has been used less often than you would like to admit, or could prove for that matter. It does have relevance though. That stuff has happened too, look at the Kobe Bryant case, or the Mike Tyson rape trial. Tyson got railroaded plain and simple, and Kobe just happened to be the last guy that chick slept with during the day. Kobe's career could have been ruined, and Tyson's was ruined basically. You think that the women who falsely accused them weren't trying to catch a case to get paid ? Obviously they were and they did. It's not so far fetched.

The fact that it's used, at all, is wrong. Even if it's only once - which it isn't - but even that one time would be too much, and wrong. And I've already stated my opinion on females who lie about things like this. They're as bad as the rapists.


So if a man is raped by another man, it's not as big a deal because it is less common? Furthermore it's not as relevant, and it's not as humiliating and degrading for a man to have to answer the kind of questions you were referring to after being raped by another man, or if the courts are anti male ? Wow, that just ends it all right there. You've got to kidding me? What am I missing that makes that true somehow?

I'd say it's just as relevant, and in every way as humiliating and degrading for a man to have to live with being raped by another man, and also have someone attempt to turn the prey into the predator so to speak.

What confuses me is these statements here:

...Where did you get literally any of that from? We're discussing whether the courts are anti-male. But in a case where it's a male vs. a male you can't have that discussion, as the gender being the same cancels any of the bias out. NO WHERE did I say this type of rape is not as bad.

Even though the majority of cases are male against female, that doesn't make the cases with men any less relevant or fucked up. The fact that there isn't more known is pretty weak too.

It makes male on male rape irrelevant in THIS discussion about courts being anti-male.

As I said, female on male rape is a new concept, one in which many don't even believe is possible. I'm completely against this as well, I just don't have any facts or theories about the treatment of these male victims as there have been so few, and therefore can't comment on it, either way.


I have heard plenty about the "second rape" story and I don't deny the truth of that statement. I am still saying it is no less a second rape for a man in the same boat and as a result the female agenda you are representing is no more important.

I'm not denying that, just that I thought the discussion was about being anti-male, therefore having to bring females into the discussion.

Maybe not her sex life with her Ex, but what about anyone else? Under certain circumstances that may be very relevant for quite a few reasons. Asking someone whether or not they sleep around isn't completely invading their lives or something as you present it. Considering it's being done during a trial you should be ready to disclose any information asked of you. Besides, your not a lawyer are you? Have you analyzed the details of a million cases or something else that makes you an authority on what is and isn't relevant or who is relevant?

I have actually looked at a lot of cases, as well as spoken to people in the situation, and being in it myself. And I don't know what relevance sexual history has on whether or not you'll have been raped. What if a girl who HAS been sexually promiscuous is then raped? She's less likely to be believed than someone who wasn't sexually promiscuous - is that fair?



But it is an issue. If a group of ten people all claim to have been punched in the face at some point in their lives or something and you found out 6 of 10 for sure were lying, why would you not be suspicious and cautious of the other 4? Unfortunately there have been a lot of women to discredit the ones who really have a case which means you have to treat all cases the same. If that means they are really intense that's a consequence of corruption, nothing more.

If this is the same person we're talking about, I'd agree. If one woman has made 7 rape claims and later admitted lying, I can understand this being brought up in court. However, if 8/10 young black women have lied about rape in your experience, it's not fair to assume a majority of others that come to you will be as well.

Apparently though it does, once again in different circumstances that may be very relevant. You were jumping back and fourth here between the actual topic case, and cases in general though. It is arguable though that background questions about the people would be relevant to the topic case. Or does a persons past and lifestyle have nothing to do with the circumstances they face in life?

A persons past and lifestyle has nothing to do with whether they were forced into sex or not, short of already being caught lying about it.

If you don't want to cooperate than maybe it isn't that big a deal to you anyways because if it was I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to face some tough questioning under the supervision of a court, with a lawyer supporting you as well.

It's not about being unwilling, it's how emotional these things make you, to the extent you actually can not answer the question. Judges have actually had to call breaks because the victim has been so upset by questioning she can't continue.

It's not like the fucking Salem Witch Trials or something. If they are asking you a question it has a point, and it has some kind of relevance. No attorney is going to ask a question that does literally no good to their case.

The fact it does good to their case is the thing. They KNOW if a woman admits to having drank some alcohol on the night of an attack, a jury are more likely to believe she's lying. If they see she was wearing a provocative outfit, they'll asusme she was 'asking for it'. They work the jury by doing this, knowing how the media have portrayed these things, and how people look at them, and their questioning is focused on those things, instead of the real facts of the case.

It's not about being
 
Where did you get literally any of that from? We're discussing whether the courts are anti-male.

This is difference between Micro and Macro. I was trying to encompass the entire situation, not just that one topic, but I did go over the anti-male issue plenty later on.

It makes male on male rape irrelevant in THIS discussion about courts being anti-male.

There was a lot of different points in this discussion though where it very much was relevant. Also, the point of the anti-male courts supported my argument that women aren't the martyrs of the court room you were making it to be. I pointed out that the same problem exists for men in different places for men as you claim it does for women.

As I said, female on male rape is a new concept, one in which many don't even believe is possible.

But as courts have rules we know that it is possible, and does happen. There are also continually more and more cases of men reporting sexual harassment that is answered with a lot of cynicism.

I'm not denying that, just that I thought the discussion was about being anti-male, therefore having to bring females into the discussion.

That was part of it, but there was a lot more going here than just that.


I have actually looked at a lot of cases, as well as spoken to people in the situation, and being in it myself. And I don't know what relevance sexual history has on whether or not you'll have been raped. What if a girl who HAS been sexually promiscuous is then raped? She's less likely to be believed than someone who wasn't sexually promiscuous - is that fair?

Sexual practices tell you a lot about a person and their character, making it relevant to investigating the legitimacy of claims made, simple as that. If someone has been very promiscuous and sleeps around that's an indicator of their lifestyle which is also a reflection of a persons character. Whether or not it is fair is matter of opinion completely, but it is most definitely relevant, especially considering the subject matter.

Once again I have to cite the chick in the Kobe Bryant case, she had already had sex with 5 or 6 other people the day Kobe Bryant supposedly raped her. Obviously she was looking to hyme someone up. That is a perfect example of why it is relevant. She was a ****e who was sleeping around trying to get guys with money in a trap, that's a maneater if hall&oats ever saw one.



If this is the same person we're talking about, I'd agree. If one woman has made 7 rape claims and later admitted lying, I can understand this being brought up in court. However, if 8/10 young black women have lied about rape in your experience, it's not fair to assume a majority of others that come to you will be as well.

However you spin it, it comes down to numbers. If you're information shows an overwhelming number of false cases, naturally one has to be more skeptical of those making the claims, this isn't rocket science.



A persons past and lifestyle has nothing to do with whether they were forced into sex or not, short of already being caught lying about it.

No, it has everything to do with the persons honesty and integrity which if proven to be less than credible puts them under the microscope to determine if they are lying or not. It's not about trying to prove that a person IS lying, but rather proving that they aren't. It's standard procedure to look over details like this to work down the list of things that could put a person in question, eliminating possibilities until the truth is all that is left.

It's not about being unwilling, it's how emotional these things make you, to the extent you actually can not answer the question. Judges have actually had to call breaks because the victim has been so upset by questioning she can't continue.

I was just giving you a hard time. You were saying "I don't want to do this, answer these questions, etc..." and I was making the point that if you weren't willing to comply with the necessary procedure than there is nothing they can do.

The fact it does good to their case is the thing. They KNOW if a woman admits to having drank some alcohol on the night of an attack, a jury are more likely to believe she's lying. If they see she was wearing a provocative outfit, they'll asusme she was 'asking for it'. They work the jury by doing this, knowing how the media have portrayed these things, and how people look at them, and their questioning is focused on those things, instead of the real facts of the case.

And I already said the problem was those who manipulate the system as you described above that is the problem, I was with you on that. I just disagreed on some of the other things you claimed as such detriments. Know something else though, a jury is going to get to hear everything, not just the suggestions of the defense attorney. There is an equal opportunity there, which makes it fair after all.

If the prosecution is worth a shit they are going to point out to the jury that the defense attorney is trying to do exactly what you were talking about, and the jury is more often than not going to get that, if they don't pick up on it already. Just because someone pressures someone on the stand and puts their honesty and integrity in question doesn't mean it's all gloom and doom and the book is written and printed. Most of this you are assuming will or is consistently the case, which is an opinion and can not be proven, only theorized on.
 
Sorry to everyone who has posted their thoughts and opinions regarding this topic for not continuing to contribute to this thread. I have been away from the computer as of late and this is my first real opportunity to respond.



CultOfRaven said:
She voluntarily engaged in sexual acts. She wasn't forced to and as a human being she should have known her limitations. I could only presume that she knew how far she could go because she has a child.

Agreed, she voluntarily engaged in sexual acts. However she voluntarily agreed to engage in erotic asphyxiation and vaginal intercourse. Despite having conversations with her partner regarding the possibilities of anal intercourse in the future, she did not give permission for that to happen this time. She did not voluntarily engage in anal sex like you claim.

You are also correct in saying that she knew her limitations. Her limitations were vaginal intercourse, not anal intercourse. Her partner took advantage of her unconscious state and broke her limitations and trust for his own pleasure.


CultOfRaven said:
Again, we could only assume her said partner did anything to her after her passing out. And once again the safeword was there and could have been used before her unconscious encounters. Their unusual way of expressing love to one another is known for its pain. She knew the risks involved because she even devised the infamous "Tweety Bird" safeword.

No one passes out randomly. Yes, the intercourse could have been overwelming especially to one who has not experienced it at all or very little, but still it is painful and she could have let that word out in protest at any other given time.

I’m not sure you understand what Erotic Asphyxiation is.

Wiki said:
Erotic asphyxiation is the intentional restriction of oxygen to the brain for sexual arousal.
The carotid arteries (on either side of the neck) carry oxygen-rich blood from the heart to the brain. When these are compressed, as in strangulation or hanging, the sudden loss of oxygen to the brain and the accumulation of carbon dioxide can increase feelings of giddiness, lightheadness, and pleasure, all of which will heighten *********ory sensations.”
Author George Shuman describes the effect as such "When the brain is deprived of oxygen, it induces a lucid, semi-hallucinogenic state called hypoxia. Combined with orgasm, the rush is said to be no less powerful than cocaine and highly addictive".
The concept of Erotic Asphyxiation isn’t to create unconsciousness, but to create a heightened sense during orgasm. I don’t believe that her partner intentionally allowed her to pass out just to he could do whatever he pleases.
CultOfRaven said:
Again, we could only assume her said partner did anything to her after her passing out. And once again the safeword was there and could have been used before her unconscious encounters.
Did you imply that she could have said the safe word while unconscious? Do I need to explain what unconscious means?
CultOfRaven said:
No one passes out randomly. Yes, the intercourse could have been overwelming especially to one who has not experienced it at all or very little, but still it is painful and she could have let that word out in protest at any other given time.
This just proved that you aren’t fully aware of what erotic asphyxiation is. It wasn’t the intercourse that rendered her unconscious; it was the lack of oxygen her brain was receiving.
CultOfRaven said:
And to know what exactly is happening to you even while you are "unconscious"....when does that happen?

I’m pretty sure that someone would be fully aware of something as drastic as anal rape was preformed on them while they were unconscious. However, in the article she stated that she awoke to find herself on “all fours” and being penetrated with a penis-shaped device.

CultOfRaven said:
Very true, but this brings up the whole aspect of why they were engaging in this "match up of wills" if obviously she didn't trust him completely.

She trusted him completely. They were in a relationship for over five years. Trust, at the time, was not an issue.

CultOfRaven said:
As a fellow worker in the ring, I would presume you grabbing the chair and beating me to death was "all part of the show" and I would have known ahead of time. To blatantly do it randomly would say you were in serious need of help.

And that is exactly what happened here. She didn’t know ahead of time that they would engage in anal intercourse. That was one of her limits. Her partner took advantage of the fact that she was unable to stop anything that he was doing to her and took it upon himself to deviate from the sexual plan.

CultOfRaven said:
Now it is clear that unconsious unwilling sex (rape) is wrong and the perpetrator should pay the price,

She was unconscious, and was unwilling to engage in anal intercourse.

CultOfRaven said:
but no one goes into the world of sexual risks and sues their partner because they themselves didnt utter their safeword. It's almost unheard of to have sex with someone with these rules, not go by the rules, and expect to have something only circumstancial to use to testify.

She was unconscious and therefore unable to say the safe word or physically encourage her partner to stop. In other words she couldn’t “tap out.” But her becoming unconscious should have been more influential than any safe word.

CultOfRaven said:
Which brings us back to Why didn't she say that creepy safeword? It just doesn't make sense.
Also, when a person is choking in any form, they cannot speak. It is physically impossible to speak if you’re airway is severely compromised thus rendering the safe word useless. But surely, causing someone to pass out supersedes any safe word.
HBK-aholic said:
'Advanced consent' should not be allowed if you're then unconcious and don't know what's happening.

100% Agree. Even if the plan is, for whatever reason, that one person would become unconscious; it’s not a free pass for the partner to do whatever they please. If they deviate from the plan at all, in my mind, it’s no longer advanced consent because the unconscious party has no immediate knowledge and gave no agreement to the new act.

HBK-aholic said:
how easy is it for a (usually) guy to say "We discussed this beforehand, she wanted sex, she gave me consent in advance", when a woman wakes up to find him having sex with her? Now, she can of course state the opposite (Who knows what really happened?), but with an often unanimous verdict needed to convict someone, there's a very, very good chance rapists can use this as an excuse and get away with rape.

It’s scary to thing that this case could potentially set a precedence for all future rape cases.

Remix Barrett said:
yes. hfact that she gave consent to the act, and did not object to it is more than enough to make it impossible to prove rape definately, beyond all reasonable doubt occured. THis means he should be let off the hook.

She agreed to engage in vaginal intercourse and erotic asphyxiation. She did not agree to becoming unconscious and engaging in anal sex.

Remix Barrett said:
However if she was aware of the risk of going unconcious when discussing the act and didn't say anything along the lines of 'please dont keep going if I pass out' it's not definately rape. How should he know she doesn't want to be biggered whilst unconcious? she didn't tell him no, either in advance or (obvously) during.

I’ll give you the same example that I gave Raven earlier. If we were in a wrestling match and I had you in the Sharpshooter, and then for whatever reason you legitimately pass out. As your partner in the ring, does that give me permission to go and get a steel chair and continuously hit you in the head with it? Or should I have enough smarts to know that something is wrong and do whatever I can to stop the match?

The Game Rage said:
The real moral of the story is that sexual perversion doesn't lead to any positive outcome, ANY form including homosexuality.

If two people want to engage in any act within their private lives, as long as it doesn’t interfere with other’s safety, how is that anyone business but theirs? Two people finding something that makes them happy, that doesn’t hurt anyone else, is a positive outcome.

The Game Rage said:
That should all tell you right away, these are dysfunctional people who are fucked in the head, the guy probably is a rapist at heart which is why he gets off on doing the sick shit he does, and the girl is too fucking stupid to know otherwise. I think they should both be dropped in a lake with cinder blocks tied to their feet, do the world some good by getting rid of some of the deviate scum. One for being a big enough piece of shit to lie to authorities in order to fulfill a personal vendetta, the other for being a big enough piece of shit to get off by doing sick and perverted shit to another person, that actually goes for both.

Now you’re judging people and that is not why this thread was created. You said a lot of other stuff that I disagree with (ie. Homosexuality and mental illness etc.) but that does not relate to this topic so I’m not going to say anything more on the matter. However, a new thread on the subject would be good.

The Game Rage said:
If a woman calls the police and says you hit her, you go to jail without proof, on her word alone.

I have seen it happen to people. I know someone who once went to jail for throwing a Big Mac at his girlfriend, he got charged with Assault and Battery, don't even try to tell me the law isn't fucking biased against men. In the opposite situation, I have seen where nothing happens to the girl, and the guy goes to jail anyways.

The justice system doesn’t quite happen like that. You need to prove without reasonable doubt of all crime for a charge to stick. A person might go to the jail for questioning and MAYBE holding, but its not nearly as extreme as you think it is.

As for the Big Mac incident, yes that would be assault. If the woman threw it at the man, it would still be assault. The difference being men are less likely to press charges against a woman for stuff like that.

HBK-aholic said:
I'm not overly familiar with Canada's justice system, so forgive me. However, I'm sure to be found guilty of an offence, there needs to be evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt the offence was committed. And if that isn't the case in Canada, something needs to be changed.

Don’t worry Becca, that IS how the justice system operates. :)

The Game Rage said:
While I agree that a 5% conviction rate is pathetic, I might also add that that is your country not mine, ok. We left England because of shit like that(unfair trials leading to unfair execution for not following the church of King George). In my country women are greatly favored in matters of the law as it pertains to them being victimized in any way by men, and as noted already they don't exactly make a great effort to prove a mans innocence.

Just out of curiosity, what is the percentage of convictions for rape in America?
 
Agreed, she voluntarily engaged in sexual acts. However she voluntarily agreed to engage in erotic asphyxiation and vaginal intercourse. Despite having conversations with her partner regarding the possibilities of anal intercourse in the future, she did not give permission for that to happen this time. She did not voluntarily engage in anal sex like you claim.



You are also correct in saying that she knew her limitations. Her limitations were vaginal intercourse, not anal intercourse. Her partner took advantage of her unconscious state and broke her limitations and trust for his own pleasure.

So you know she's never had anal intercourse? How so? And you are forgetting the argument about "him taking advantage" is seedy to say the least. She went back and told the court a different story, so odds are she was making the whole thing up.



I
I’m not sure you understand what Erotic Asphyxiation is.

You'd be right. But I would assume it would have to do with pain, loss of breath, erotic torture, etc. Things that S&M is known for.


The concept of Erotic Asphyxiation isn’t to create unconsciousness, but to create a heightened sense during orgasm. I don’t believe that her partner intentionally allowed her to pass out just to he could do whatever he pleases.

So, you are agreeing with me about her partner? I could have sworn you have been arguing with me about where he stands in this.


Did you imply that she could have said the safe word while unconscious? Do I need to explain what unconscious means?

Of course I wasn't implying that. I'm just saying between the pain and loss of breathe, 3 syllables could have came out to supposedly end the session. And I said before, which is opposite to while.

This just proved that you aren’t fully aware of what erotic asphyxiation is. It wasn’t the intercourse that rendered her unconscious; it was the lack of oxygen her brain was receiving.

Yes, we covered my knowledge of this word. And I never said he had sex w her so hard it made her pass out...yet again I assumed erotic asphyxiation had something to do with an unorthodox form of arousal.

Of course I didn't know. I assumed it was an abusive form of sexual play. I was right. Your point is?

Choking is another form of sexual arousement, but do it just a bit too hard and you pass out. Unconscious. It's a lot like this erotic asphyxiation.


I’m pretty sure that someone would be fully aware of something as drastic as anal rape was preformed on them while they were unconscious. However, in the article she stated that she awoke to find herself on “all fours” and being penetrated with a penis-shaped device.

That's odd. When people pass out, they aren't half-asleep. And when does someone fall asleep on all fours? Have to sleep that way to wake that way, or was she a sleepcrawler? Interesting...




And that is exactly what happened here. She didn’t know ahead of time that they would engage in anal intercourse. That was one of her limits. Her partner took advantage of the fact that she was unable to stop anything that he was doing to her and took it upon himself to deviate from the sexual plan.

Or so she said till she went back on her testimony. Once again we can only assume she even Has an anal limit. Anal limit...again this is quite an odd subject matter in itself. We can't say for sure whether her ass was "off-limits". The topic is about sexual consent. Hell if she was "raped" vaginally would you say vaginal sex was one of her limits?


She was unconscious, and was unwilling to engage in anal intercourse.

Yes, we have already agreed on this. Anyone unconscious would be unwilling to engage in any form of sexual deviation. I can only guess.



She was unconscious and therefore unable to say the safe word or physically encourage her partner to stop. In other words she couldn’t “tap out.” But her becoming unconscious should have been more influential than any safe word.

True, but still this is where "fishy" first sticks its ugly head. She's unconscious. Or so she said. I am not someone who takes what someone says as "The God's Honest Truth". Evidence is a factor anyway you look at it. That's what you need in any kind of case....wait she withdrew her claim so evidence, her "unconscious" testimony, all of that is thrown out.


Also, when a person is choking in any form, they cannot speak. It is physically impossible to speak if you’re airway is severely compromised thus rendering the safe word useless. But surely, causing someone to pass out supersedes any safe word.

What was the point of the safeword then???? For keeping up appearances?




It’s scary to thing that this case could potentially set a precedence for all future rape cases.

This I agree with whole-heartedly, given the victim went back on their word and it turns out she was afraid her partner/rapist would take their son away... yeah I can see the future rape cases there.



She agreed to engage in vaginal intercourse and erotic asphyxiation. She did not agree to becoming unconscious and engaging in anal sex.

I doubt anyone would agree on becoming unconscious, but it is S&M so it's possible someone would agree to it. And yes you made your point on her unwillingness to perform such acts which I have agreed with maybe three times now.


And just out of curiousity, why didn't the man get to state his defense? Or did the woman already withraw her testimony before he got to? See it's things like this that make me wonder what really happened. The justice system is never one-sided; everybody states their case. We didn't hear it here.
 
Just for your information, sadomasochism IS linked to mental illness, since you don't seem to really know what it is anyways here's a link, go look for yourself, it says it in plain black and white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism

What about that doesn't tell you there is something deeply and emotionally wrong with someone absolutely floors me.

Doesn't that say something too? Why would a woman want someone to suffocate them, mutilate their bodies, and play out fantasies like that on them? Doesn't someone wanting people to do that to them tell you something is wrong with them? Or a man wanting another man to sodomize him? Doesn't that trip the red flag in your head that tells you "Hey there's something wrong with that" or "That person has some fucking issues." ? How the fuck am I the crazy one for thinking there is something wrong with all that?

When talking about the real violent weird shit like Sadism and Masochism, I think those people have some real issues that need worked out, and that their practices in the bedroom should be discouraged in any way possible for obvious reasons.

I'm sorry but obviously something is wrong with you if your are into doing the things they were doing, S&M, "erotic asphyxiation", all that stuff.

The real moral of the story is that sexual perversion doesn't lead to any positive outcome, ANY form including homosexuality. That should all tell you right away, these are dysfunctional people who are fucked in the head, the guy probably is a rapist at heart which is why he gets off on doing the sick shit he does

It's a serious accusation to say that sadomasochism is linked to mental illness and a whole host of other undesirable behaviour. This is just the cigar lounge, not a debating league (although we have one), so I don't expect you to be citing your sources when you make a claim such as that, however if you are going to make claims like this, you should be ready to back it up with information in case some one calls you on it, which I am going to do right now.

First, let's look at your link. I want to point out that citing wikipedia is hardly the be-all and end-all of whether something is true, I could alter that page right now if I really wanted to, but I do want to point out some important quotes:

In certain extreme cases, sadism and masochism can include fantasies, sexual urges or behavior that cause significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, to the point that they can be considered part of a mental disorder. However, this is an uncommon case, and psychiatrists now regard them only as disorders when they are associated with other problems such as a personality disorder.

The link itself states that sadism and masochism can be used in extreme cases to be considered part of a mental disorder, but that now they are not considered disorders themselves, that was a long time ago. Enough of that link though, it's wikipedia, not actual research. Here is some actual research:

By administering carefully selected
psychometric tools, and comparing the responses of sadomasochists to
those of non-sadomasochists, we sought evidence for several theories
currently being used to explain SM. We found no support for the
view that sadomasochism is an illness – our measures of mental illness
did not differentiate sadomasochists from non-sadomasochists.

Likewise we could not find evidence for the psychoanalytic view that
SM reflects sexual guilt on the part of masochists or an id-driven personality
on the part of sadists–our measure of sexual guilt did not differentiate
masochists from others, and our measures of id-driven behavior
did not differentiate sadists from others.

We also could not find evidence that sadomasochists are anti-feminist–our measure of feminist attitudes did not differentiate sadomasochists from non-sadomasochists.

Source: Understanding Sadomasochism: An Empirical Examination of Four Perspectives by Patricia A. Cross, PhD & Kim Matheson, PhD

The results from that study (which is recent, done in 2006) show that SM is not a mental illness, and that SM participants do not differentiate from non-SM participants in any of the areas that they tested.

In regards to your claim that looking at SM in the bedroom and then extrapolating that behaviour in to other areas, look at this quote:

Frequently, sadomasochistic scenarios are scripted; individuals play designated roles during their interaction. This serves to confine the behavior only to that episode, keeping it from spilling over to other aspects of life.

In conclusion, social science research in sadomasochism over the
past three decades indicates that this is a complex social phenomenon,
not easily nor accurately summed up by psychoanalytical perspectives.
Contrary to the psychoanalytical view that SM is an individual
psychopathology, sociological and social psychological studies see SM
practitioners as emotionally and psychologically well balanced, generally
comfortable with their sexual orientation, and socially well
adjusted.

Source: Sadomasochism and the Social Sciences: A Review of the Sociological and Social Psychological Literature by Thomas Weinberg (2006)

Personally I find sadomasochism odd, that I will not deny. I don't see the thrill or intrigue involved in some of the acts that these people do, but while we are free to make opinions such as that, recent studies have shown the opposite of what you're saying. There are studies that document extreme SM, but those cases are rare, and few and far between, thus they are the exception to the rule, not the standard.
 
somehow I accidentally posted two of the same post, so I just came and removed all the text from one. This is not an intentional spam post or anything so please don't infract me, this was the only thing I could think to do to fix it.
 

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