A Case for Really Old School Wrestlers

[dd23beatlesfan1]

First off, I'd just like to say that I'm ecstatic to see an official Hall of Fame project come onto these message boards. I had been wondering for a long time if it was gonna happen, glad to see it's here.

Secondly, I'm a huge Hall of Fame buff, so I will do my best to try to participate on a regular basis for this project (I know I tend to drift on and off on these forums).

Now to the point of this thread. As has already been revealed Hulk Hogan has been named the original and first inductee into the HOF. I'm not gonna make a stink about it or anything because without Hulk Hogan we would not have the modern wrestling landscape. End of story.

And with his induction, now it looks like the first five inductees appear like they're going to 4 out of the following group of people...Ric Flair, Steve Austin, The Rock, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, The Undertaker.

That's speculation of course, and I hope I'm wrong, but those guys tend to be the most popular wrestlers on these forums and thus will most likely be the first ones chosen.

Of course the 6 people previously mentioned are 6 of the greatest wrestlers of all-time and are unquestionably Hall of Famers. But at the same time that kind of goes against my general Hall of Fame philosophy, and it represents a trend that I'm worried will happen. And it's something I'm going to try to do as much as I can to prevent from happening, starting with this very thread.

What trend do you ask? The pioneers and old-school legends being initially passed over for the modern day legends and icons.


See, my philosophy on a Hall of Fame is that it through it's inductees, it should tell the story and history of whatever subject it's honoring. Be it sports Hall of Fames like the NBA and NFL Hall of Fames, or music HOF's like the Rock and Roll HOF or the Country Music HOF, or other HOF's, most inductions are in a somewhat chronological order. For example, The Beatles may be the biggest and greatest band of all-time (greatest is debatable of course, IMO they are, but I don't think there's any denying they're the biggest and most successful), but they weren't the first inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Many of the bigger pioneers of rock and roll in the '50s were inducted before more modern legends like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and later on U2, Michael Jackson, and Madonna. Not only were the icons like Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, and Buddy Holly, but other lesser known pioneers like Bill Haley, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison, Sam Cooke, and Bo Diddley were rightly inducted before the Beatles. And why is that okay? Because you can't possibly tell the story of the Beatles without telling the stories of those who led the way for the Beatles to make the impact that they did. People like Elvis, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Ray Charles, etc.


So like with any other HOF, I'm really hoping that the Wrestlezone HOF can at least somewhat attempt to follow the same pattern.

I know that's not going to happen initially as with Hulk Hogan already being inducted, I can pretty much tell that the first inductees will be modern day legends. But I'm going to make an effort anyway to make a case for the voters here and even the moderator who will pick the nominees to at least include a few of the really old school legends who helped pave the way for today's greats.

I can live with Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, Bret Hart, etc. getting inducted first. But if the likes of John Cena and Randy Orton get inducted before true pioneers like Frank Gotch, Rikidozan, or El Santo, that will just be ridiculous in my eyes.


I don't know who is being considered as front-runner inductees, but I'm going to make a case for 10 pre-1970 wrestlers that should easily be amongst the first inductees in our HOF.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

In chronological order....


Frank Gotch

The first major star of pro wrestling which put the sport on the map. Frank Gotch wasn't just the biggest star in wrestling during the early 1900's. He was one of the biggest stars in sports period. His matches with George Hackenschmidt (another guy who deserves early induction) helped make pro wrestling one of the most popular sports in the early 1900's and ushered in it's first golden age. Without Frank Gotch making wrestling popular, we would have nothing.


Ed "Strangler" Lewis

Quite possibly the greatest shooter in wrestling history. He was by far the most successful wrestler of the 1920's. He was the sport's biggest draw, it's toughest and most legitimate athlete and he was also one of the most influential and important wrestlers of that area. With manager Billy Sandow and promotor, Toots Mondt, the trio known as the "Goldust Trio" largely created the modern pro wrestling landscape. From pre-determining match results (picking winners), creating feuds and made up rivalries between athletes, laying out the format for modern wrestling events (under-card matches, mid-card matches, main events, etc.), creating the pre-cursor to modern wrestling promotions (as they had a troop of wrestlers that traveled together across the country and had matches together much like modern day WWE shows), even changing the style of wrestling matches from strict, olympic-style chain wrestling, to more of a fighting style with slams, hits, and bumps, there may be no single wrestler who influenced the art of pro wrestling more than Ed "Strangler" Lewis. Oh, and he trained and mentored arguably the greatest pro wrestler of all-time who is coming up next....


Lou Thesz

Lou Thesz is the greatest champion in wrestling history. Yep, I said it. He may not have held the title as many times as Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Triple H, and his longest reign isn't quite as long as Bruno Sammartino's, but no wrestler in history dominated the world title picture for as long a period as Lou Thesz. Lou won his first world title in 1937, and lost the championship for the final time almost 30 years later. Lou was the man who helped establish the NWA as the most legitimate wrestling organization in history until the WWF came to prominence in the 1980's. Lou set the standard for what a pro wrestler was in his era and even to this day. He defended the NWA title with integrity, passion, consistency, and was one of the biggest stars of his era. Lou was constantly relied upon to keep the title safe from anyone who wanted to steal the title. He also invented countless moves such as the STF, Lou Thesz press, the powerbomb and plenty more, moves that are standards in modern day wrestling move repertoire. He also, with Rikidozan helped make wrestling popular in Japan with their legendary series of matches. Lou Thesz did so much to impact and establish the "sport" of pro wrestling. Honestly he should've been the first inductee, although I can see Hulk Hogan being inducted before him. I can possibly see Ric Flair. But after Flair and Hogan, no one else should go in before Lou Thesz. Yep, Bret, Shawn, Stone Cold, Taker, Rock, and everyone else can wait their turn.


Gorgeous George

As much as Lou Thesz and Ed "Strangler" Lewis helped to influence the in-ring part of pro wrestling, Gorgeous George did as much to influence the performance part of pro wrestling. He largely created the gimmick, was the first to use entrance music, and was the first to highly performance and crowd psychology over in-ring ability. Gorgeous George also became the biggest wrestling star in American pop culture since Frank Gotch in the early 1900's. Gorgeous George didn't just make wrestling popular in the early 1950's. His popularity and matches also served as a major selling point for television sets in the early 1950's. He wasn't just a wrestling icon, but he was a pop culture icon. Any wrestler who has cared as much about performing as wrestling exists thanks to Gorgeous George.


Buddy Rogers

Buddy Rogers changed pro wrestling forever. Gorgeous George was largely a heel in his day due to acting feminine and wimpy, and basically acting gay which stood against everything that men were supposed to be in the 1950's. Buddy Rogers on the other hands was the first typical pro wrestling heel. That of the cocky, arrogant asshole who thinks he's better than everyone else. From Ray Stevens, to Nick Bockwinkel, to Ric Flair, to Billy Graham, to Ted Dibiase, to Curt Hennig, to Shawn Michaels, to the Rock, to Chris Jericho, to the Miz, any cocky heel in wrestling history. Buddy Rogers created the archtypal pro wrestling heel. He was also the first ever WWWF champion and thus was the main reason the WWWF (aka: WWE) was even created in the first place as Vince Sr. and Toots Mondt wanted him as the NWA champion so they could hog him for bookings, whereas the rest of the NWA pushed for Lou Thesz. Their split was the cause of the formation of the WWWF. Buddy Rogers starpower helped lead to the biggest organization in American pro wrestling history. He helped create wrestling heels and led to the formation of the biggest company ever. Why again should Buddy Rogers not be one of the first inductees?


Antonio "Argentina" Rocca

Before Buddy Rogers became a frequent performer in the Northeast territores, Antonio "Argentina" Rocca was helping to establish the Northeast territories as a wrestling hotbed in the late 1950's. Rocca as much as anyone helped lead to the formation of the WWWF as without him and his starpower, there wouldn't have been a market to build a territory to. In addition to that he was also a pioneer of high flying and aerial moves in American pro wrestling. One of the first to use dropkicks, the flying headscissors, and moves off the top rope, he was a true pioneer and innovator, for the 1950's.


Rikidozan

The father of Japanese pro wrestling. As Frank Gotch helped establish pro wrestling as a popular attraction in America, Rikidozan did the same in Japan. With his series of matches against Lou Thesz (which still hold records for TV ratings in Japan), Rikidozan helped establish a market for pro wrestling in Japan. There would be no All-Japan, New-Japan, NOAH, Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Mitsuharu Misawa, Jushin Liger, Great Muta, Shinya Hoshimoto, Riki Choshu, or any other Japanese star or organization, no pro wrestling in Japan period without Rikidozan. He should easily be the first Japanese pro wrestler in the HOF.


El Santo

What Rikidozan was to Japan, El Santo was to Mexico. He's still the most iconic luchador in history. He was a pop culture phenomeon in Mexico and is still a legendary figure today over 20 years after his death. Much of Mexican wrestling was created and established by El Santo. The first luchador in our HOF should easily be El Santo. No one else.


Verne Gagne

Verne Gagne was a major cornerstone of pro wrestling from the 1950's and into the 1980's. Verne was one of the breakout stars of 1950's wrestling and was poised to win the NWA title but never got the chance. He then formed the AWA which was one of the "Big Three" for 30 years along with the NWA, and the WWWF. In addition to the countless legends he helped train (Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat, Sgt. Slaughter, Ken Patera, etc.) and the countless stars he nurtered in the AWA (Hulk Hogan, Dusty Rhodes, Billy Graham, Jesse Ventura, Bobby Heenan, Shawn Michaels, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig, etc.), he also held the AWA world title many times (I think around 9?) and was one of the biggest stars of the "Television Era" of pro wrestling. When it comes to old school pro wrestling, he is easily one of the leading candidates.


And finallly......


Bruno Sammartino

Do I really need to make a case here? If so, please say so and I will gladly do it.


In conclusion I just want everyone to remember the old school wrestlers as without these guys and other wrestlers of the earlier eras we wouldn't have Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, etc.


I really hope that at least one old school wrestler makes the first 5 inductees (If I have to choose one, it should be Lou Thesz, then Bruno Sammartino, then Frank Gotch, then Buddy Rogers). Thanks for reading

 

[JGlass]

I think you'll be surprised to see how much love some old school guys get on the forum with a proper case being made for their induction. Great list, and if some of the names don't get on their soon, I'm sure they will be eventually.

One name I'd like to throw into the pot is Bobo Brazil. While all the guys you listed certainly had a huge impact on the industry, Bobo Brazil opened the door to black talent everywhere, and much like how Jackie Robinson did it in baseball, he did a great job at it. It's not like he was a black guy who just wound up on the occasional card, he quickly became one of wrestling's top babyfaces. Breaking the racial barrier is a big deal in any sport, and Brazil did it with both skill and class.

 

[Mac Attack]

I think you'll be surprised to see how much love some old school guys get on the forum with a proper case being made for their induction. Great list, and if some of the names don't get on their soon, I'm sure they will be eventually.

And then there is me who isn't necessarily and old school lover. However I respect it enough. I think we have to be idealistic when it comes to old school wrestlers. El Santo, Rikidozan, I don't think will make the Hall of Fame. (Or if they do not soon.) Why because if you were to take their names out of wrestling history would a whole lot change. Probaly not. Another reason, if you were to ask a common or even an above average wrestling fan who either man is they are clueless. However if you were to ask them who someone like Hogan they clearly know who you are talking about. I think Bruno should definetly make it for the exact reason mentioned. Lou Thesz should make it for sure, I hope that Rogers doesn't make it because I don't like him, and I think that there are others that are more deserving. I think you can make a slight case for the rest of them however should they ALL be sure thing no.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

In chronological order....


Frank Gotch

The first major star of pro wrestling which put the sport on the map. Frank Gotch wasn't just the biggest star in wrestling during the early 1900's. He was one of the biggest stars in sports period. His matches with George Hackenschmidt (another guy who deserves early induction) helped make pro wrestling one of the most popular sports in the early 1900's and ushered in it's first golden age. Without Frank Gotch making wrestling popular, we would have nothing.


Ed "Strangler" Lewis

Quite possibly the greatest shooter in wrestling history. He was by far the most successful wrestler of the 1920's. He was the sport's biggest draw, it's toughest and most legitimate athlete and he was also one of the most influential and important wrestlers of that area. With manager Billy Sandow and promotor, Toots Mondt, the trio known as the "Goldust Trio" largely created the modern pro wrestling landscape. From pre-determining match results (picking winners), creating feuds and made up rivalries between athletes, laying out the format for modern wrestling events (under-card matches, mid-card matches, main events, etc.), creating the pre-cursor to modern wrestling promotions (as they had a troop of wrestlers that traveled together across the country and had matches together much like modern day WWE shows), even changing the style of wrestling matches from strict, olympic-style chain wrestling, to more of a fighting style with slams, hits, and bumps, there may be no single wrestler who influenced the art of pro wrestling more than Ed "Strangler" Lewis. Oh, and he trained and mentored arguably the greatest pro wrestler of all-time who is coming up next....


Lou Thesz

Lou Thesz is the greatest champion in wrestling history. Yep, I said it. He may not have held the title as many times as Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Triple H, and his longest reign isn't quite as long as Bruno Sammartino's, but no wrestler in history dominated the world title picture for as long a period as Lou Thesz. Lou won his first world title in 1937, and lost the championship for the final time almost 30 years later. Lou was the man who helped establish the NWA as the most legitimate wrestling organization in history until the WWF came to prominence in the 1980's. Lou set the standard for what a pro wrestler was in his era and even to this day. He defended the NWA title with integrity, passion, consistency, and was one of the biggest stars of his era. Lou was constantly relied upon to keep the title safe from anyone who wanted to steal the title. He also invented countless moves such as the STF, Lou Thesz press, the powerbomb and plenty more, moves that are standards in modern day wrestling move repertoire. He also, with Rikidozan helped make wrestling popular in Japan with their legendary series of matches. Lou Thesz did so much to impact and establish the "sport" of pro wrestling. Honestly he should've been the first inductee, although I can see Hulk Hogan being inducted before him. I can possibly see Ric Flair. But after Flair and Hogan, no one else should go in before Lou Thesz. Yep, Bret, Shawn, Stone Cold, Taker, Rock, and everyone else can wait their turn.


Gorgeous George

As much as Lou Thesz and Ed "Strangler" Lewis helped to influence the in-ring part of pro wrestling, Gorgeous George did as much to influence the performance part of pro wrestling. He largely created the gimmick, was the first to use entrance music, and was the first to highly performance and crowd psychology over in-ring ability. Gorgeous George also became the biggest wrestling star in American pop culture since Frank Gotch in the early 1900's. Gorgeous George didn't just make wrestling popular in the early 1950's. His popularity and matches also served as a major selling point for television sets in the early 1950's. He wasn't just a wrestling icon, but he was a pop culture icon. Any wrestler who has cared as much about performing as wrestling exists thanks to Gorgeous George.


Buddy Rogers

Buddy Rogers changed pro wrestling forever. Gorgeous George was largely a heel in his day due to acting feminine and wimpy, and basically acting gay which stood against everything that men were supposed to be in the 1950's. Buddy Rogers on the other hands was the first typical pro wrestling heel. That of the cocky, arrogant asshole who thinks he's better than everyone else. From Ray Stevens, to Nick Bockwinkel, to Ric Flair, to Billy Graham, to Ted Dibiase, to Curt Hennig, to Shawn Michaels, to the Rock, to Chris Jericho, to the Miz, any cocky heel in wrestling history. Buddy Rogers created the archtypal pro wrestling heel. He was also the first ever WWWF champion and thus was the main reason the WWWF (aka: WWE) was even created in the first place as Vince Sr. and Toots Mondt wanted him as the NWA champion so they could hog him for bookings, whereas the rest of the NWA pushed for Lou Thesz. Their split was the cause of the formation of the WWWF. Buddy Rogers starpower helped lead to the biggest organization in American pro wrestling history. He helped create wrestling heels and led to the formation of the biggest company ever. Why again should Buddy Rogers not be one of the first inductees?


Antonio "Argentina" Rocca

Before Buddy Rogers became a frequent performer in the Northeast territores, Antonio "Argentina" Rocca was helping to establish the Northeast territories as a wrestling hotbed in the late 1950's. Rocca as much as anyone helped lead to the formation of the WWWF as without him and his starpower, there wouldn't have been a market to build a territory to. In addition to that he was also a pioneer of high flying and aerial moves in American pro wrestling. One of the first to use dropkicks, the flying headscissors, and moves off the top rope, he was a true pioneer and innovator, for the 1950's.


Rikidozan

The father of Japanese pro wrestling. As Frank Gotch helped establish pro wrestling as a popular attraction in America, Rikidozan did the same in Japan. With his series of matches against Lou Thesz (which still hold records for TV ratings in Japan), Rikidozan helped establish a market for pro wrestling in Japan. There would be no All-Japan, New-Japan, NOAH, Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Mitsuharu Misawa, Jushin Liger, Great Muta, Shinya Hoshimoto, Riki Choshu, or any other Japanese star or organization, no pro wrestling in Japan period without Rikidozan. He should easily be the first Japanese pro wrestler in the HOF.


El Santo

What Rikidozan was to Japan, El Santo was to Mexico. He's still the most iconic luchador in history. He was a pop culture phenomeon in Mexico and is still a legendary figure today over 20 years after his death. Much of Mexican wrestling was created and established by El Santo. The first luchador in our HOF should easily be El Santo. No one else.


Verne Gagne

Verne Gagne was a major cornerstone of pro wrestling from the 1950's and into the 1980's. Verne was one of the breakout stars of 1950's wrestling and was poised to win the NWA title but never got the chance. He then formed the AWA which was one of the "Big Three" for 30 years along with the NWA, and the WWWF. In addition to the countless legends he helped train (Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat, Sgt. Slaughter, Ken Patera, etc.) and the countless stars he nurtered in the AWA (Hulk Hogan, Dusty Rhodes, Billy Graham, Jesse Ventura, Bobby Heenan, Shawn Michaels, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig, etc.), he also held the AWA world title many times (I think around 9?) and was one of the biggest stars of the "Television Era" of pro wrestling. When it comes to old school pro wrestling, he is easily one of the leading candidates.


And finallly......


Bruno Sammartino

Do I really need to make a case here? If so, please say so and I will gladly do it.


In conclusion I just want everyone to remember the old school wrestlers as without these guys and other wrestlers of the earlier eras we wouldn't have Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, etc.


I really hope that at least one old school wrestler makes the first 5 inductees (If I have to choose one, it should be Lou Thesz, then Bruno Sammartino, then Frank Gotch, then Buddy Rogers). Thanks for reading

As an amateur wrestling historian myself, I can only say, well, great post. A well kept hall of fame would be cool for this site, particularly if people can avoid nominating “insert name of whatever random mid-carder here” or “put anyone who has died young during the past fifteen years here,” or worst of all, “name your favorite wrestler here.” It gets my goat that certain individuals can boast to remembering every big moment of Raw and Smackdown and think they know squat about wrestling history. Guess what: they don’t.

So I guess you would say I’m an aspiring historian. The reason I use the word “aspiring” is because I’m not one of those who spends countless hours looking at old press clippings and putting together the game’s history piece by piece like the true chroniclers. But, over the past fifteen years, I have read what they write on an extensive level. I’m actually working on a book of my own in which I’m listing (not ranking, only listing) the one hundred top wrestlers EVER. And before people ask, no Brian Pillman, Sabu, Jake Roberts and Owen Hart are not within ten light years of this list (although each of them might make the top 200, but I digress). Herein lie names relevant to the true wrestling buffs, names like John Pesek, the only hooker wrestlers may have feared more than Thesz, 2-time world champion Stanislaus Zbyszko, and Evan “the Strangler” Lewis, who was twisting capable wrestlers’ heads off years before Ed.

The list at the top of the page is a good reference to the best of the best before Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair, but I would expand it further with these selections:

William Muldoon was the first wrestler ever to have gained a wide following, as well as the first to break through to the mainstream. A pop culture icon of the late 19th century whose pioneering efforts allowed professional wrestling to break from the underground to enjoy a level of acceptance with the general public, Muldoon paved the way for future icons such as Frank Gotch and Ed Lewis. It’s unproven, but some historians believe that he may have invented the basic bodyslam, which was often referred to in old wrestling circles as the crotchhold. Significantly, Muldoon also played a huge role in inaugurating wrestling on the arena circuit.

Martin Burns was the greatest catch-as-catch-can style wrestler of the 19th century, winning the world catch title in 1895 and not relinquishing it until 1897. Despite a small frame, Burns was a incredible strength athlete, and after retiring, became undoubtedly the greatest wrestling trainer of all-time. Many of his pupils, including Frank Gotch and Earl Caddock, went on to even greater fame.

Jim Londos was undeniably the most visible and dominant wrestler of the 1930s. The most popular and largest drawing star of his time, Londos consistently drew crowds numbering as much as 30,000 during The Great Depression, despite the lean economic times. Noted as the first sex symbol in wrestling, “The Golden Greek” was NWA World champion for a 5-year duration spanning 1930-35.

Bill Longson was a 3-time NWA World champion and a pioneering heel. The top drawing wrestler in the United States throughout the 1940s, Longson recorded sixteen straight sellouts of the Kiel Auditorium as a main eventer in 1944 alone. His second NWA title run spanned four years, two days, the longest reign since Jim Londos’ 5-year tenure as champion a decade before.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

And then there is me who isn't necessarily and old school lover. However I respect it enough. I think we have to be idealistic when it comes to old school wrestlers. El Santo, Rikidozan, I don't think will make the Hall of Fame. (Or if they do not soon.) Why because if you were to take their names out of wrestling history would a whole lot change. Probaly not. Another reason, if you were to ask a common or even an above average wrestling fan who either man is they are clueless. However if you were to ask them who someone like Hogan they clearly know who you are talking about. I think Bruno should definetly make it for the exact reason mentioned. Lou Thesz should make it for sure, I hope that Rogers doesn't make it because I don't like him, and I think that there are others that are more deserving. I think you can make a slight case for the rest of them however should they ALL be sure thing no.

You ask whether a lot would change if you deleted the names Rikidozan and El Santo from wrestling history? Actually, yeah. A great deal would.

Although Rikidozan and Santo's direct effect on the American landscape was negligable, Rikidozan basically established professional wrestling in Japan. So no Rikidozan, no puroresu, which means the American continent would never have been exposed to great wrestlers such as Great Muta, Tiger Mask and Ultimo Dragon, and wrestlers such as Samoa Joe, who was significantly influenced by Japan, might be very different in style.

As for Santo, he did not personally establish wrestling in Mexico, but he was lucha libre's first notable star. He established the tradition of wearing a mask in wrestling, and led lucha through its Golden Age. Were there no Santo, we might not have wrestlers such as Rey Misterio Jr and Alberto Del Rio today.

 

[Mac Attack]

You ask whether a lot would change if you deleted the names Rikidozan and El Santo from wrestling history? Actually, yeah. A great deal would.

Although Rikidozan and Santo's direct effect on the American landscape was negligable, Rikidozan basically established professional wrestling in Japan. So no Rikidozan, no puroresu, which means the American continent would never have been exposed to great wrestlers such as Great Muta, Tiger Mask and Ultimo Dragon, and wrestlers such as Samoa Joe, who was significantly influenced by Japan, might be very different in style.

As for Santo, he did not personally establish wrestling in Mexico, but he was lucha libre's first notable star. He established the tradition of wearing a mask in wrestling, and led lucha through its Golden Age. Were there no Santo, we might not have wrestlers such as Rey Misterio Jr and Alberto Del Rio today.

The key word here is might. Yes they did have some part in bringing international stars into the bigger picture, however you can't possibly say that without them we would ultimately have had no one other to take their place. Just because he was first does not necessary mean it would never happen which is why I don't credit them to as much as you do. I totally agree that they helped make more known wrestling to their perspective countries however they don't deserve as much as you give them credit for. The truth of the matter is there is no way you can say that because they existed, they are the direct cause of all the international stars that emerged from their presence.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

The key word here is might. Yes they did have some part in bringing international stars into the bigger picture, however you can't possibly say that without them we would ultimately have had no one other to take their place. Just because he was first does not necessary mean it would never happen which is why I don't credit them to as much as you do. I totally agree that they helped make more known wrestling to their perspective countries however they don't deserve as much as you give them credit for. The truth of the matter is there is no way you can say that because they existed, they are the direct cause of all the international stars that emerged from their presence.

Your post here is based purely on speculation. Sure someone else in Japan could've established pro wrestling in Japan. Sure, someone else could've put lucha libre on the map instead of El Santo. But Hall of Fames' aren't dealt with on speculation. They're dealt with on facts and accomplishments, and the fact is that Rikidozan was the wrestler who made pro wrestling popular in Japan, which led to everything pro wrestling wise in Japan. Rikidozan is the father of Japanese pro wrestling and not having him in the HOF would be an absolute crime.

Same deal with El Santo. There were other guys that maybe could've, but they didn't. El Santo was who became the first major star of lucha libre thus influencing it and everyone else who followed. Once again not having El Santo in the HOF is an insult to him, and to lucha libre.

And not wanting Buddy Rogers to be in the HOF because you don't like him. Wow, cause that's not biased.

Voting people into a HOF shouldn't be based on whether you like the person or not. It should be based on a person's accomplishments, legacy, and impact on their respective field. And not having Buddy Rogers in a pro wrestling HOF would just be ridiculous. You don't have heels in pro wrestling, particularly Ric Flair (possibly the greatest wrestler of all-time) without Buddy Rogers.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

I think you'll be surprised to see how much love some old school guys get on the forum with a proper case being made for their induction. Great list, and if some of the names don't get on their soon, I'm sure they will be eventually.

One name I'd like to throw into the pot is Bobo Brazil. While all the guys you listed certainly had a huge impact on the industry, Bobo Brazil opened the door to black talent everywhere, and much like how Jackie Robinson did it in baseball, he did a great job at it. It's not like he was a black guy who just wound up on the occasional card, he quickly became one of wrestling's top babyfaces. Breaking the racial barrier is a big deal in any sport, and Brazil did it with both skill and class.

Bobo Brazil was actually one of the wrestlers I was going to use in my post, but I decided to put El Santo instead to have a representative of lucha libre. But yes, Bobo Brazil is definitely deserving of being in the HOF.

 

[Mac Attack]

Your post here is based purely on speculation. Sure someone else in Japan could've established pro wrestling in Japan. Sure, someone else could've put lucha libre on the map instead of El Santo. But Hall of Fames' aren't dealt with on speculation. They're dealt with on facts and accomplishments, and the fact is that Rikidozan was the wrestler who made pro wrestling popular in Japan, which led to everything pro wrestling wise in Japan. Rikidozan is the father of Japanese pro wrestling and not having him in the HOF would be an absolute crime.

So because someone makes something popular then you should automatically add them to a HOF? Would you have the same argument for someone like Sting? He made WCW very popular in the past yet he doesn't even get a mention. I understand your reasoning however I don't think that it is truly justified.

Same deal with El Santo. There were other guys that maybe could've, but they didn't. El Santo was who became the first major star of lucha libre thus influencing it and everyone else who followed. Once again not having El Santo in the HOF is an insult to him, and to lucha libre.

And once again just because they are the first does it mean it needs to be HOF worty. You blame my argument on speculation however there is no evidence that he was the cause of the lucha libre exposure. I know indirectly it is possible however once again you can only speculate he was the cause.

And not wanting Buddy Rogers to be in the HOF because you don't like him. Wow, cause that's not biased.

I think I also mentioned I never enjoyed his gimmick. But if you want more details, if this HOF really is a HOF and not just something that every three months someone else gets added to then there clearly are better choices then Rogers.

Voting people into a HOF shouldn't be based on whether you like the person or not. It should be based on a person's accomplishments, legacy, and impact on their respective field. And not having Buddy Rogers in a pro wrestling HOF would just be ridiculous. You don't have heels in pro wrestling, particularly Ric Flair (possibly the greatest wrestler of all-time) without Buddy Rogers.

That is not a good enough reason as for someone being in the HOF. The first heel, that's the best argument there is. It doesn't take a genious to think of good vs bad, anyone could have made someone else the real first. HOF should not be based on first but most impact.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

The key word here is might. Yes they did have some part in bringing international stars into the bigger picture, however you can't possibly say that without them we would ultimately have had no one other to take their place. Just because he was first does not necessary mean it would never happen which is why I don't credit them to as much as you do. I totally agree that they helped make more known wrestling to their perspective countries however they don't deserve as much as you give them credit for. The truth of the matter is there is no way you can say that because they existed, they are the direct cause of all the international stars that emerged from their presence.

And yet, as Rikidozan and El Santo did exist, and as their contributions, as I earlier outlined, did affect wrestling on the world scale, my point remains relevant.

With Rikidozan in particular---you know, the guy who actively established puro---it gets more complicated. Had Rikidozan not broken from Al Karasick and Bobby Bruns when wrestling was inaugurated in Japan, and with the backing of the Yakuza, established the JWA, Japanese wrestling, at the very least, would not have developed for at least a decade or more, and at most, might never have developed at all. The reason for this is simple: Karasick and Bruns are Americans. Their attempt at starting a business in Japan would not sit well with the mob, as the braintrust therein may actually hate "gaijins" more than the average Japanese citizen (you know, what with the war and everything). Thus, attempts by NWA promoters to expand into Japan, a closed society, were never going to work.

Rikidozan embarks on his wrestling career, and he looks at it as his second shot at stardom from his failed sumo career. Thus, he opens the first wrestling organization, the JWA, with the backing of the mob. As the mob is looking to expand into all manner of Japanese business at this point, they give Rikidozan their blessings, even though there has to have been significant doubt. As wrestling is a European/American import, there is no way to know whether the game will prove to be popular in the highly rigid and traditional Japanese social structure.

But it would be popular, and why is that? Because Rikidozan had a vision that others lacked, and it may have been the only way to build a successful wrestling company from scratch in Japan. Match Rikidozan himself---a native Korean, but believed by the general public to be Japanese---against whatever "invading" North American or European heel is available, with Rikidozan always looking like a superhero and always going over. This strategy was brilliant, as it made a war-torn, depressed culture sit up and take notice. Rikidozan was soon revered as the leading sports hero in Japan. He instilled in the country a sense of self esteem that had been lost in the wake of the atomic bombings and the loss to the Allies.

Had Rikidozan never existed, it is almost a 100 percent sure bet that Masahiko Kimura would have ascended to the top spot of Japanese wrestling. Kimura, a renowned shootfighter, was the only wrestler whose popularity rivaled Rikidozan. However, this man's motives and vision---he also had mob connections---were very different from Rikidozan. He did not see wrestling as a successful sport, he viewed wrestlers as charlatans. When he opened his own wrestling company years later, he didn't do it because he thought the venture would be successful, he did it to stick it to Rikidozan's craw, as there was by now legitimate hatred between the two individuals. Had Kimura taken the next step at all without the presence of Rikidozan is debatable, but under his leadership, the idea would never have worked. Kimura himself may not have wanted it to work.

As far as Santo goes, maybe someone else could have donned the hood. It would have been different in his case, because he was in a way faceless to the Mexican populace. The same could not be said about Rikidozan.

Had Rikidozan not established Japanese wrestling, there would have been no reason for anyone else to for at least 20-25 years. In that case, there would be no Inoki and no Baba, and no New Japan or All Japan. Inoki and Baba were the two men most responsible for modernizing Japanese wrestling to its current form. Without Rikidozan, Inoki, or Baba, wrestling might well exist in Japan today, but it would probably still be in its infancy, and thus, altogether different.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

So because someone makes something popular then you should automatically add them to a HOF? Would you have the same argument for someone like Sting? He made WCW very popular in the past yet he doesn't even get a mention. I understand your reasoning however I don't think that it is truly justified.

Apples and oranges. Sting was a wrestler of a major company, WCW, and it could be argued that other wrestlers were more responsible for WCW's growth (not that I'm taking anything away from Sting). Rikidozan took something entirely new and introduced it to a culture renowned for rejecting new ideas. Santo singlehandedly revolutionized the wrestling scene in Mexico. Both wrestlers were mainstream cultural icons, a level of acceptance that Sting never attained. In fact, both Rikidozan and Santo are very well known in Japanese and Mexican society today.

And once again just because they are the first does it mean it needs to be HOF worty. You blame my argument on speculation however there is no evidence that he was the cause of the lucha libre exposure. I know indirectly it is possible however once again you can only speculate he was the cause.

How can you downplay the importance of pioneers in any effort? A pioneering effort establishes the framework, without which there can be no structure, and requires specific factors to line up just right. It’s why some things fail repeatedly time and again before catching on. It’s not unlike an astrological alignment that may only occur once every two centuries. A true pioneer has certain individual qualities that separate him from the pack and prompt others to take notice.

I think I also mentioned I never enjoyed his gimmick. But if you want more details, if this HOF really is a HOF and not just something that every three months someone else gets added to then there clearly are better choices then Rogers.

That viewpoint is not unlike excluding George Hackenschmidt from a list of all-time greats because he’d sooner eat apples than apple pie, and I happen to prefer apple pie to apples.

On the other hand, I hate Hulk Hogan. I hate Triple-H. Absolutely hate them. Their individual wrestling styles, their blowhard attitudes, their arrogance, even their taste in women. Yet, it would be silly for me to abolish them from a hall of fame on any of those merits. They both belong in a hall of fame, and if it’s a top 100 listing, they both belong there as well, probably at or near the top.


That is not a good enough reason as for someone being in the HOF. The first heel, that's the best argument there is. It doesn't take a genious to think of good vs bad, anyone could have made someone else the real first. HOF should not be based on first but most impact.

Buddy Rogers isn’t hall of fame worthy for “being the first heel,” because he is not that, not by a long shot. There are dozens of early heels who would not be hall of fame worthy (I’m thinking specifically of Dick Daviscourt and Billy Edwards, there’s two names steeped in obscurity, lol). Rogers is hall of fame material because he was a draw, because he was a dominant world champion (having held both the WWWF and NWA World titles), and because his rulebreaking gimmick broke new ground. I’d call that impact.

 

[Mac Attack]

1)Buddy Rogers isn’t hall of fame worthy for “being the first heel,” because he is not that, not by a long shot.

2)Rogers is hall of fame material because he was a draw, because he was a dominant world champion (having held both the WWWF and NWA World titles),

3)and because his rulebreaking gimmick broke new ground. I’d call that impact.

I green repped you for the other post but disagree with this. Instead of going quote by quote I'm going to lump everything together and address it by numbers. 1)Everyone's reason for having him is because he was the first true heel. It may suprise you but I read what people have said and they say he was the first true heel which same with you I disagree with from a historical standpoint, and a realistic standpoint in that even if he is the first true heel he does not belong in the HOF for that reason. I never said he was the first true heel I was just arguing what others were saying. 2) I'm not disagreeing with you that he had these accomplishments however is that a reason why someone should be automatic in a hall of fame. If being a big draw and having titles is criteria then why isn't Edge at the top of your list. He has over 50 wrestling titles in his career. 3) Once again It may just be me but I will not put somebody into a HOF just because of a gimmick, if that's the case Undertaker is the first person in.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

I green repped you for the other post but disagree with this. Instead of going quote by quote I'm going to lump everything together and address it by numbers. 1)Everyone's reason for having him is because he was the first true heel. It may suprise you but I read what people have said and they say he was the first true heel which same with you I disagree with from a historical standpoint, and a realistic standpoint in that even if he is the first true heel he does not belong in the HOF for that reason. I never said he was the first true heel I was just arguing what others were saying. 2) I'm not disagreeing with you that he had these accomplishments however is that a reason why someone should be automatic in a hall of fame. If being a big draw and having titles is criteria then why isn't Edge at the top of your list. He has over 50 wrestling titles in his career. 3) Once again It may just be me but I will not put somebody into a HOF just because of a gimmick, if that's the case Undertaker is the first person in.

Before you go on what “everyone else says,” you need to brush up on your history. There were wrestlers exploring heel qualities as early as the 19th century. The first regular heels started hitting American rings during the twenties and thirties, before Rogers began wrestling. Bill Longson is regarded by many who know anything as the first great “modern heel” because he developed some of the earliest strictly heel tendencies, including wrestling defensively (often bounding from the ring when his opponent went on the offense) and attacking from behind. Longson was also one of the first to take up a regular heel role (most other heels of the period shifted alignment depending on where they were wrestling).

Gorgeous George and Buddy Rogers took the genre further through their individual styles. Their own respective rises to fame roughly coincided—although George is widely believed to have garnered a more passionate heel response, as he was a walking gimmick whom most male fans despised because of his effeminate tendencies and his dyed hair. Rogers, very significantly, honed a trademark strut that was copied by numerous wrestlers, and was the first wrestler to dye his hair blond and package himself as a ladies man. This was incredibly difficult to do because most people of the period thought that only homosexuals bleached their hair. Different period, ya know.

Just to clarify, Rogers was not the first heel, and neither was George. And for that matter, neither was Longson. All three men advanced rulebreaking to new levels, which is a major part of why the majority of wrestling fans—even fans ignorant of the extent of their accomplishments—will put their names up there.

That Rogers was the first wrestler to attain a title double in the old WWWF and the NWA is quite significant, considering that the accomplishment would not be repeated until Ric Flair pulled it off a generation later. His NWA title reign alone lasted a year and a half, probably longer than all of Edge’s title reigns combined. Rogers took Sam Muchnick’s struggling territory and turned it into a success almost overnight. From 1949 onward, he was among the top three or four draws in the sport, alongside Thesz, George and Antonino Rocca.

Edge, in comparison, has never held the title long, and is simply not the proven draw that Triple-H, Cena, Rock, Austin, or probably even Orton and Undertaker have been. It wouldn’t matter if Edge had held 150 titles if he can’t hold onto one for more than a month or two.

Incidentally, Undertaker is someone I would think is hall of fame worthy. Yes, he is a walking gimmick, but the entire infrastructure of wrestling has been based on gimmicks for the past eighty or so years.

To help this fit into your perspective better, saying guys like Rogers, Santo and Rikidozan don’t belong in a hall of fame because someone else may have replicated their success had they never been born is like ignoring the accomplishments of visionaries such as Hogan and McMahon on the same merits. I would think that if Hogan had not been born, someone else would almost have certainly filled his boots (Roddy Piper seems to think so, anyway). But that does not change the fact that he was born, and he attained huge success in the wrestling ring.

And now I feel dirty because I described McMahon as a visionary. Great.

 

[Mac Attack]

Before you go on what “everyone else says,” you need to brush up on your history. There were wrestlers exploring heel qualities as early as the 19th century. The first regular heels started hitting American rings during the twenties and thirties, before Rogers began wrestling. Bill Longson is regarded by many who know anything as the first great “modern heel” because he developed some of the earliest strictly heel tendencies, including wrestling defensively (often bounding from the ring when his opponent went on the offense) and attacking from behind. Longson was also one of the first to take up a regular heel role (most other heels of the period shifted alignment depending on where they were wrestling).

You just don't get it. I disagree with what everyone else says. I even said that in my last post. I have been constantly refuting the point that he because he was the first heel point makes him go into the HOF. Him being the first heel is something that others wrote that I have disagreed on countless times now. Now beside the part you truly are good at the historian stuff.

Gorgeous George and Buddy Rogers took the genre further through their individual styles. Their own respective rises to fame roughly coincided—although George is widely believed to have garnered a more passionate heel response, as he was a walking gimmick whom most male fans despised because of his effeminate tendencies and his dyed hair. Rogers, very significantly, honed a trademark strut that was copied by numerous wrestlers, and was the first wrestler to dye his hair blond and package himself as a ladies man. This was incredibly difficult to do because most people of the period thought that only homosexuals bleached their hair. Different period, ya know.

Yes, I agree with the explanation of the history of the heel however because someone is good at being a different type of heel does not mean they deserve to be in the HOF. That is what it all comes down to essentially. And why does he get in for a ground breaking heel gimmick, where is the face love in the HOF? Undertaker is trademarked by being unable to die, you still haven't mentioned him for HOF. My entire point is that gimmick does not equal Hall of Fame.

Just to clarify, Rogers was not the first heel, and neither was George. And for that matter, neither was Longson. All three men advanced rulebreaking to new levels, which is a major part of why the majority of wrestling fans—even fans ignorant of the extent of their accomplishments—will put their names up there.

Wrong, ignorant fans don't know who any of these guys are. And to refute your point Orton is groundbreaking in his rule breaking ability a few years back. He attacked a man's wife and sadistically scared her and felt her. Yet he isn't listed for earth shattering rule breaking. Just because they pioneered a small face does not mean they deserve the HOF.

That Rogers was the first wrestler to attain a title double in the old WWWF and the NWA is quite significant, considering that the accomplishment would not be repeated until Ric Flair pulled it off a generation later. His NWA title reign alone lasted a year and a half, probably longer than all of Edge’s title reigns combined. Rogers took Sam Muchnick’s struggling territory and turned it into a success almost overnight. From 1949 onward, he was among the top three or four draws in the sport, alongside Thesz, George and Antonino Rocca.

No Edge's title reigns are more time than all this. However we are now comparing draws from today's perspective from then's perspective which should not happen. One long title reign does no matter especially when you mention how the company was struggling.

Edge, in comparison, has never held the title long, and is simply not the proven draw that Triple-H, Cena, Rock, Austin, or probably even Orton and Undertaker have been. It wouldn’t matter if Edge had held 150 titles if he can’t hold onto one for more than a month or two.

You need to look at the history of Edge..... Yet in comparison he probaly has overall equal draw to Rogers in numbers. If it were in percentages then Rogers wins however it is close to equal.

Incidentally, Undertaker is someone I would think is hall of fame worthy. Yes, he is a walking gimmick, but the entire infrastructure of wrestling has been based on gimmicks for the past eighty or so years.

So here the truth comes out that the HOF should be based on gimmick. That is where I disagree.

To help this fit into your perspective better, saying guys like Rogers, Santo and Rikidozan don’t belong in a hall of fame because someone else may have replicated their success had they never been born is like ignoring the accomplishments of visionaries such as Hogan and McMahon on the same merits. I would think that if Hogan had not been born, someone else would almost have certainly filled his boots (Roddy Piper seems to think so, anyway). But that does not change the fact that he was born, and he attained huge success in the wrestling ring.

True they did have sucesses but are they enough to be mentioned in a HOF? I agree that Rikidozan could potentially get in but the others I don't think so. Clearly if they had never been born then they couldn't get in but I never phrased it like that. I said because they were replacable it lowers their HOF bid. And I like that Hogan got it in first no doubt about that however he did more for wrestling then all of those combined.

And now I feel dirty because I described McMahon as a visionary. Great

VKM is a visionary. Without him wrestling to this day would not be what it is.

 

[Lucid]

Huh? How do you argue that if "someone else could have done it" on one side of an argument and NOT balance the equation on the other?
That's not sound logic, in my opinion.
If Hogan gets in for what he did, then the rest of these pioneers get in for what they did.
It's only right and fair. IF they never came along, then Hogan would be a surfer bum somewhere.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

You just don't get it. I disagree with what everyone else says. I even said that in my last post. I have been constantly refuting the point that he because he was the first heel point makes him go into the HOF. Him being the first heel is something that others wrote that I have disagreed on countless times now. Now beside the part you truly are good at the historian stuff.

Thank you for clarifying.

Yes, I agree with the explanation of the history of the heel however because someone is good at being a different type of heel does not mean they deserve to be in the HOF. That is what it all comes down to essentially. And why does he get in for a ground breaking heel gimmick, where is the face love in the HOF? Undertaker is trademarked by being unable to die, you still haven't mentioned him for HOF. My entire point is that gimmick does not equal Hall of Fame.

As far as “face love” goes, I could name about a dozen or more old school babyfaces that belong in the HoF. But we’re not arguing about the early babyfaces, we’re debating the old school heels.

As far as Undertaker goes, I do mention him as Hall of Fame worthy later in my post. As you say, his gimmick did break new ground. Not only that, he is among the more recognizable faces of WWF/E of the past twenty years.

Being a trailblazer is more important in wrestling than you care to admit. I don’t think you understand the manner in which most wrestlers of the Rogers era were utterly bland. Rogers helped to alter that mold. And, as I have reiterated repeatedly, he was a proven draw.

Wrong, ignorant fans don't know who any of these guys are. And to refute your point Orton is groundbreaking in his rule breaking ability a few years back. He attacked a man's wife and sadistically scared her and felt her. Yet he isn't listed for earth shattering rule breaking. Just because they pioneered a small face does not mean they deserve the HOF.

You’d be surprised how many people know the names just because they’ve been mentioned in passing on WWE television or honored in the WWE Hall of Fame, but don’t have so much as an individual likeness to attach to the names.

Orton, groundbreaking? Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I don’t consider new levels of male on female violence particularly groundbreaking. If your point on Orton was valid, that would mean Scott Steiner gets into the hall for physically throwing Kimberly out of a car in WCW years back, and being generally abusive towards women in general. By suggesting that Orton is breaking new ground in wrestling by physically manhandling women, you suggest that the trend will grow darker in the years to come, and that one day, people will look back and view Orton as the guy who started it all, a horrifying thought.

No Edge's title reigns are more time than all this. However we are now comparing draws from today's perspective from then's perspective which should not happen. One long title reign does no matter especially when you mention how the company was struggling.

You’re not paying attention to what I wrote. When Rogers came into Muchnick’s territory it was struggling. Rogers is the guy who turned it around. Lou Thesz was running an opposing company and within a year of Rogers’ debut with Muchnick, was forced to strike a deal because Muchnick had become more successful. This is comparable to how Austin turned the WWF around in the Monday night ratings war.

You need to look at the history of Edge..... Yet in comparison he probaly has overall equal draw to Rogers in numbers. If it were in percentages then Rogers wins however it is close to equal.

Triple-H and Cena are the dominant forces in this era of wrestling history, any way you look at it, and this is coming from a guy who dislikes both. Edge is, in comparison and at best, a subsidiary draw, not unlike transitional champions of years past. Moreover, if Cena and Triple-H have proven anything, it is that the era of the multi-year champion is not over. Edge’s longest reign as champion was approximately three and a half months.

You’re a cheerleader for Edge, I get it, but the fact is, if he were as great a draw as the other WWE stars I mentioned, he would have held the title longer than three and a half months, since it makes sense to keep your draws on top. Comparing him to Rogers, who was among the top three highest paid wrestlers of his time—and this was a day when promoters screwed wrestlers royally out of what was due to them in any and all ways imaginable—is laughable.


So here the truth comes out that the HOF should be based on gimmick. That is where I disagree.

Wrestling itself is built upon gimmick, but that is not to imply that gimmick is necessarily tantamount to being in the hall. If that were true, wouldn’t Doink be an inductee?

True they did have sucesses but are they enough to be mentioned in a HOF? I agree that Rikidozan could potentially get in but the others I don't think so. Clearly if they had never been born then they couldn't get in but I never phrased it like that. I said because they were replacable it lowers their HOF bid. And I like that Hogan got it in first no doubt about that however he did more for wrestling then all of those combined.

But that’s what I’m saying. The question of whether or not Santo is hall of fame worthy isn’t analyzing him strictly on whether or not he would be replaceable. That would be absurd. Hogan was probably not irreplacable, but does that mean he should not be in the hall? Hardly. As for the notion that Hogan did more for wrestling than Rikidozan and Santo combined? Did Hogan inaugurate wrestling in this country? Try to expand your perceptions beyond your own personal scope and understand that what takes place in other countries is just as vital to the overall framework of wrestling as what takes place in the U.S. Santo was a mainstream figure on par with Elvis who was known across Mexico. He had his own comic book, and was a hugely popular actor. Both he and Rikidozan are remembered by their countrymen decades later. Do I have to spell it out for you?

VKM is a visionary. Without him wrestling to this day would not be what it is.

Without McMahon, American wrestling would not be like it is, you’re right. But there’s a lot more to wrestling than what goes on in the United States.

 

[The Prodigal Anti-Lemming]

Huh? How do you argue that if "someone else could have done it" on one side of an argument and NOT balance the equation on the other?
That's not sound logic, in my opinion.
If Hogan gets in for what he did, then the rest of these pioneers get in for what they did.
It's only right and fair. IF they never came along, then Hogan would be a surfer bum somewhere.

That's simpler and to the point than I could have made it. And obviously, I agree.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

I wanna clarify a few things to make sure my posts aren't being misinterpreted.

The reason I'm not mentioning modern day guys is because that defeats the whole point of this thread. To acknowledge and give attention to old-school wrestlers so they are not forgotten in the HOF process.

Of course Sting should be in the HOF. Of course the Undertaker should be in the HOF. Of course Randy Savage (who thus far hasn't been mentioned yet at all) should be in the HOF. So should Stone Cold, the Rock, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Harley Race, Terry Funk, Mick Foley, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Jack Brisco, Andre the Giant, etc.

Just because I'm highlighting the old school guys, doesn't mean I don't think anyone from the modern era should be inducted. I'm just doing my best to make sure that both eras get proper recognition.

If this was done completely my way, because I'm a chronological freak, I would induct the biggest old school legends first, than work my way to the middle era (70's and '80s), then up to the modern eras (90's and '00s). But this is not my HOF, so the best I can do is keep pushing for the pioneers to get their due.

Secondly, I know that the Macious Mauler didn't specifically mention me, but in case he was meaning me, I hope he knows that I don't think Buddy Rogers should only go in for "being the first heel." As The Prodigal Anti-Lemming has pointed out (and even as I pointed out), Buddy Rogers wasn't the first ever heel in wrestling. Gorgeous George was before him. Bill Longson (who I didn't mention) was someone even before him who pioneered heel tactics. Heck, even Frank Gotch expressed heel tendancies in that he was accused of cheating to win his matches against George Hackenschmidt.

But what I give credit to Buddy Rogers for is perfecting and really pioneering the archtypal heel in professional wrestilng. Over pro wrestling history there have been quite a few different types of heel characters. You have your outlaw, renegade, bad ass heels (Dick the Bruiser, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Terry Funk, early Stone Cold Steve Austin, etc.). You have your more supernatural, demonic, scary heels, (Kevin Sullivan, Jake Roberts, Undertaker, Kane, etc.). You have your monster giant heels (Killer Kowalski, King Kong Bundy, Andre the Giant, Earthquake, The Great Khali). You have your foreign heels (Mr. Fuji, Ivan Koloff, The Iron Sheik, Sgt. Slaughter as the Iraqi- sympathizer), etc. But the most typical wrestling heel is that of the cocky, arrogant, prick who thinks he's better than everyone else. While there were heels before Buddy Rogers, Rogers is who perfected and really got this style of wrestling heel over. Many of the greatest heels in wrestling history have portrayed a character like Buddy Rogers. From Ric Flair, to Ray Stevens, to Nick Bockwinkel, to Ted Dibiase, to Curt Hennig, to Shawn Michaels, to the Rock, to Chris Jericho, to the Miz.

Also Buddy Rogers' legacy on wrestling history is much more than just that of being the archtype for the cocky, arrogant heel. He was also a gifted worker who helped change the style of in-ring working in his era. He added much more showsmanship and heel psychology to matches, things that are standards in today's wrestling landscape. He was also one of the biggest draws of his era. His world title win over Pat O' Conner was the biggest gate drawing wrestling match for 25 years (until Hogan/Orndorff in 1986 in Canada). And as I pointed out in my intial post, his popularity and drawing power pretty much led the way for the creation of the biggest promotion in wrestling history, the WWE.

Buddy Rogers has all of the qualifications to be in a wrestling HOF.

He was a pioneer of heel wrestlers, he was one of the biggest draws of his era, he was the first wrestler to win both the NWA and WWF championships (a record he would hold for 30 years), his popularity and drawing power led to the existence of the biggest promotion in wrestling history, he was one of the most respected (for working ability, obviously not personality) and influential wrestlers of his generation. He influenced and impacted pretty much every heel wrestler that followed him.

He has influenced and impacted wrestling when it comes to work style, to character style, and to the wrestling landscape itself. He was a gifted worker, he was a tremendous draw, he established records (first ever WWE champion, first wrestler to win both WWE and NWA championships, and had the biggest ticket selling match in wrestling history for 25 years). He has plenty of reasons to be in a wrestling HOF.


I just wanted to make those things clear in case anyone was getting the wrong impression from my posts.