I would also like to begin by wishing our opponents luck. I'm looking forward to this debate and the ones to come.
And while that's all well and great, I look forward to this, as well. Savage will be back to take your eventual rebuttal, so I'm just going to go ahead and make my next post, if that's quite allright. Let's see what you have, Thriller.
The Light Heavyweight Championship
History (Wikipedia used for research)
From 1981 to 1995, the WWF had a business partnership with the Universal Wrestling Association (UWA), a Mexican based promotion, which resulted in the creation of the Light Heavyweight Championship for the UWA. When the UWA ceased operations in 1995, the WWF lent the title to the Japanese New Japan Pro Wrestling (NJPW) promotion; however, the WWF ended their partnership with NJPW in 1997. While in these foreign promotions, the belt was held by the likes of Gran Hamada, Pegasus Kid (Chris Benoit), The Great Sasuke, Último Dragón, Jushin Liger, and Perro Aguayo.
That'd be fantastic evidence of history for you, Thriller. That is, if the WWE actually recognized these title reigns in their history. As you neglect to mention, Thriller, that the WWE does recognize the efforts of these men, and these reigns are not accepted as official WWE reigns. The WWE has done everything possible to make the fans forget this agreement ever occurred. Which actually kinda fits, seeing as how the WWE had never, ever expressed on camera that there was a relationship between the WWE and New Japan Pro Wrestling. While WCW often shipped in legends like Jushin Liger and Muta, the WWE did no such thing, and never recognized the legitimacy of a relationship. The closest they came was Hakushi and Taka. That's it, that's the list. Other than that, the WWE doesn't acknowledge the history on their site, nor did they when the Title was active in the WWE. So all of the history you speak of has to come from 1997-2001, when the belt was unified with the Cruiserweight Title. That belt, by the way, was the only title from WCW to survive the Invasion. And the only reason it survived was because the LHW title was so weak to begin with. Which brings us to your slanted form of history we see from 1997-2001
After the ending of the partnership with NJPW, the Light Heavyweight Belt returned to the United States and a tournament was created to find the first man to hold the title in WWF. The tournament was won by Taka Michinoku, and he went on to hold the title for 10 months, until he faced a young kid with long blonde hair making his WWF in-ring debut.
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The belt went on to be held by men such as Jerry Lynn, Tajiri, X-Pac, Dean Malenko, and Jeff Hardy before being unified into the Cruiserweight Championship in 2001.
Mein Gott.... Thriller, you forgot the most decorated LHW Champion in the history of the WWE! The only one given an actual story, and a gimmick to boot. The only one that creative placed any effort into. And, mind you, the longest reigning LHW Champion in history. Who's that, you ask?
Yes, Gillberg is still, to this day, the longest reigning LHW Champion in the history of the WWE. And he rarely, if ever, actually defended the belt. He beat that young blonde you speak of, and went on to win only one match for the rest of his run as Gillberg. That being, a match against Goldust. When Goldust qualifies for the LHW Title, let me know.
The belt was put on a parody. A fucking parody, Thriller. It was meant to make fun of Gillberg, and the LHW Title, though clearly still active, was never defended. It is easily the worst title reign in the history of the sport. Yes, this clearly loses out to one of the Godfather's Hos, because it was long, tedious, and the belt was never defended. This man is the poster child for your LHW division. He held the belt the longest, and when people think LHW Champions,
this is what comes to mind.
Credibility, meet Shotgun.
Now that some history of the belt has been shared, I will counter some of the points you made in your opening argument.
And now that I've torn into said "history", let's see how you retain any sense of making an argument.
It is impossible to argue the fact that the Hardcore Title is more versatile, but that it is not necessarily a negative thing. Here is the list you provided of guys who would qualify to win the LH Title:
Ok, I'm going to stop you right here, because you add plenty more names. But the crux of your LHW Title argument is really based on these wrestlers using a different style from the ones of the typical "6'4", 290 LB wrestler". But how many of these wrestlers you mention actually work a lightheavyweight style? Let's take a gander, shall we?
To that list I would add:
Go on.
This one I'll give you. He hasn't worked much on the ropes yet, but I assume he probably could.
Cody Rhodes (who is listed at 223 and could easily drop down)
If that's a Cruiserweight Wrestler, who works a Cruiserweight Style, I guess you're going to try and sell me on someone like Bubba Ray Dudley being a LHW. Cody works a bland style that's pretty much the same as any wrestler you see in the WWE. The only difference is those thirty pounds.
Same issue as Cody.
Now this one I'll give to you, though I don't particularly categorize him as wrestling a LHW style. Still, I'll give it, but you're facing a
huge problem in a minute here, Thriller. We'll get to that after you're done listing names
As much as I could laugh right now, technically you're right. Still, there's no way I can consider him a credible challenger for any belt. I'm actually more shocked he's still on the roster.
JTG (couldn't find his weight but he's probably around 220)
Again, a style issue. Besides, he's pretty big for hus size. I'd say he's probably 235, at the least.
The Hurricane/Gregory Helms
Ok but there's a still a huge problem....
Still a huge problem....
And the yet to debut Bryan Danielson and Kaval (Low-Ki or Senshi)
Yeah, this one I'll give you, too. He's coming to Smackdown soon. Maybe if you put that belt on Smackdown. But you've still got a Hell of a problem right now, Thriller.
That's a pretty good sized division, if you ask me. There are a good number of these guys that are doing nothing but wrestling storyline-less matches and/or jobbing and appearing rarely on TV.
And here's your issue, Thriller; What brand are you proposing to house all of these guys on? Your problem is, you've taken characters from
all three brands. Did you notice how I only used
one brand for my example, Thriller? Because that Brand Extension is the way the WWE is doing business right now. At this point, no singles champion can go to all three brands, because they are contractually obligated to their brand. You can't just have one champion bouncing from program to program as he sees fit. It taints the value of the brand split. The only reason the Tag Team Champs can get away with it is because the belts were once split up, and were on different shows. Having the LHW Champion on all three shows just doesn't make sense. If you're going to build a division, you have to form a roster from one brand. No one on Raw can challenge for the IC Belt. Vice versa for the US Belt. That's just the way the WWE works. And your theory does not fit into the WWE's vision. Period.
A light-heavyweight division would give guys like Bourne, Yang, Slam Master J, Ziggler, Chavo, and the Colóns a purpose, something they are in dire need of at this point
So you're using the exact same point I made for wrestlers contending for the Hardcore Title, but weakening it by ignoring the brand split?
They could put on great matches and remind the fans that you don't need to be 6'4 and 290 lbs. of muscle to be a great wrestler. So while every guy in the WWE could potentially win the hardcore title, guys that desperately need something to do in the WWE would be in contention for the light-heavyweight title.
Again, that doesn't solve the issue of the belt being too exclusive, and not able to get more faces on TV. All it did was highlight it. The Hardcore Title can have plenty of faces on TV, and give them the exact same chance of the LHW Title. The difference is, it can give
more wrestlers a chance.
The only reason it would be more memorable is because it was a joke.
I'm sorry, what was Gillberg again? If any division was the joke, it was the LHW Division. While the Hardcore Belt regularly made PPVS, The LHW was regularly the dark match, or Sunday Night Heat. While Jerry Lynn won the belt on a Dark Match in April 2001, Raven won the belt from Kane in the middle of the card that same program of Backlash. Vince obviously cared more about the Hardcore Belt, and made it more of a focal point. Meanwhile, he made Jerry Lynn's debut, and subsequent title win, into meaningless television.
Where the light-heavyweight (and later cruiserweight) division put on great matches to elevate the belt until the end, the hardcore division was having "matches" in hotel rooms and laundromats.
Well, your issue Thriller is the WWE's ban on certain high flying moves. The 450 is banned, and the SSP was banned until Evan Bourne could prove he could do it without killing someone. Vince doesn't allow the LHWs to wrestle that kind of style. And as long as that's the case, it doesn't fit the WWE. What would you rather have; watered down LHWs which are better shown on the competition, or entertaining segments which, by the way, are
meant to be jokes.
If you include the Cruiserweight Title, then the Light-Heavyweight is remembered. However, the only reason the Hardcore Title is remembered is the same reason Mae Young's baby and and Katie Vick are remembered: stupid comedy segments that took away from the actual wrestling.
Utter Bullshit. To compare the Hardcore Belt to Katie Vick is clearly exaggeration on your part, and you know it. You know the difference between the two, Thriller? One was entertaining, and made the fans care. Something I really can't say for the LHW Title.
Once again, it was better pushed because it was a comedy prop. The Light-Heavyweight division was billed as an alternative to the heavyweight wrestling the has been the focus of the American wrestling product forever.
There's that little problem I pointed to you when you were listing wrestlers, Thriller. You see, you could pretend the LHWS will work a different style, but you're only lying to say such a thing. All of the guys you mention pretty much work the same as heavyweights. So how exactly are you going to fool the fans that it's different? By pointing to how skinny they are? Please.
That was the storyline of the division. The belt had a couple feuds, but the focus was the fact that it was an alternative. The Hardcore Title didn't have storylines either, if that's what you want to argue. All there was were random guys hitting each other with random stuff in the location they happened to be in that week. No stories, no wrestling, just dumb comedy.
Well, there's at least something there that can't be said for the LHW Title.... Effort, Thriller, effort. Vince put effort into the Hardcore Championship. He put absolutely nothing into the LHW Title. The story was a running gag, but it was at least a story. There was at least some type of angle to it. Something that can't be said for the LHW Title.
This argument was extremely interesting coming from the pro-Hardcore title side. Since the show is PG now and focused on kids, it would be a terrible idea to bring back the Hardcore title. Not only would it be more weapon based violence being shown to the kids, but it would be in everyday locations they could be in. All it takes is one impressionable kid seeing a Hardcore title "match" located inside a Chuck E. Cheese for something bad to happen and the WWE to get more bad press and possibly a lawsuit.
And here, ladies and gentleman, is where Thriller proves to the audience that he really doesn't read the argument of his opposition, at all. Where did I ever bring up the Hardcore Belt as realistic violence? Did I, or did I call it slapstick? It's comedy, Thriller. All of the "violence" is pretty much like the cartoons those same parents let their kids watch. You mean to tell me the WWE Hardcore Division is any worse than Bugs fucking Bunny? Again, it falls upon the responsibility of the parent to let their child know that the action is like the cartoons they watch at home.
Oh, and Thriller.... What if that same kid tries an Asai Moonsault on his friend? Can we blame the LHW style for the damages?
This is another reason for the WWE to bring back a light-heavyweight division. TNA is presenting itself as a legitimate competitor to the WWE, based on the fact that it is an alternative that presents light-heavyweight/cruiserweight wrestling. If WWE is able to have a successful light-heavyweight division of its own, TNA will lose that distinction and possibly the fans that like WWE and only watch TNA for the smaller guys.
And here, Thriller, you prove you've learned nothing of the last twelve months of TNA programming. Again, it's basic business; you don't try and beat a monopoly with the same brand they churn out. You give them something different, and you let them sample your new product. TNA has the X Division, and the WWE can't offer better than the X Division. So why not go for something different, as you're not going to rope in the fans of the superior division to watch your inferior product? It makes much more sense than what you're offering Thriller. You're offering that the WWE accepts TNA as a legitimate threat, which it has never done. Instead, offer something TNA can't, and corner that market.
That market is the Hardcore Championship.
. Like you said, Vince is all about making money. All he has to do is look at TNA's X-Division and companies like Ring of Honor that are almost completely made of of men who would qualify as light-heavyweights to see that there is a market for wrestlers that size. 