2001 Invasion Angle Discussion

[abhilash81]

On November 18th 2001, one of the biggest storylines in professional wrestling history, came to an end: WWF beat team Alliance and "Took it all"
But things obviously didn't turn out as the fans were expecting when WCW was bought by Vince Mcmahon. The storyline is considered by many as the biggest wasted opportunity ever in wrestling. It lasted several months, got its own ppv called "InVasion" and several WCW and ECW wrestlers were hired to progress the storyline, but at the end of the day, a lot was left to be desired.

This thought came into my mind that what if WWE marketed this storyline as WWE vs. WCW, and somehow recruited the biggest names in wrestling at that time, keeping ECW out of the mix????


After the Invasion angle folded, the biggest WCW stars arrived in the span of next few months (years in case of Goldberg). What if WWE could've somehow succeeded in hiring all these big stars as soon as the purchase took place?? The nWo arrived in early 2002, Goldberg in 2003, and Sting never came and probably never will. If WWE could've gotten them all at once, imagine the possibilities that would've arised!! What if Triple H never tore his quad, and HBK was still an active wrestler at that point? A full year of matches and angles that fans never thought they would be able to see, finally ending at Survivor Series with the biggest dream match of all time.

In reality, we got this:

Team WWF ( The Rock , Chris Jericho , The Undertaker, Kane, and The Big Show )
vs.
Team Alliance ( Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rob Van Dam , Kurt Angle , Booker T, and Shane McMahon )

What about this:

Team WWF ( The Rock , Stone Cold Steve Austin , The Undertaker, D Generation X (Shawn Michaels and Triple H ) )
vs.
Team WCW ( nWo (Hollywood Hogan , Kevin Nash , Scott Hall ) , Goldberg, and Sting )

WCW invading WWF just after Wrestlemania 17 and kick starting the greatest storyline in wrestling history, with dream matches after dream matches and great promos for toppings, finally culminating in a Winner take all match at Survivor Series. Just think about the epic feuds packaged in this epic bout: DX vs. NWO, Taker vs. Sting, Austin vs. Hogan, Austin vs. Goldberg (Goldberg had challenged Austin to a match during the Monday Night wars) and more!!!!

This could've been a perfect angle to run an entire year with a perfect, well thought out, and well executed match to end it, with Austin finally pinning Hogan to take it all for the WWF. And ofcourse I had to insert Hall in there as he was the original founder of the nWo. And we don't need ECW in this match coz at the end of the day, no ECW star at that time was popular enough to be on team WCW, as compared to Sting, Goldberg and nWo.

So this was an idea of the Classic elimination Survivor Series match which never happened, but could've been had the cards been played right.

What do you think about this possibility and what would be your dream match to end the Invasion if everything would've gone right??

 

[B Negreanu]

HOLY FUCK. That would have been so epic.

Hogan VS Austin
Austin VS Goldberg
NWO VS DX

All three of these matches can headline their own fucking wrestlemania.

 

[rge2010]

It was never a possibility because it didn't happen. If it was possible it would have happened.

Vince struck when the iron was hot, unfortunately it just wasnt hot enough. The talent he had at his disposal were B's at the best. DDP, Booker, RVD were about as good as it got. This is why Austin switched and Kurt Angle did too. The Alliance required star power.

Two things could have made the angle better in my opinion.

A) Have ex WCW talent like Big Show, Chris Jericho and Eddie Guerrero move to join the Alliance.

B) Wait 12 months until Hogan, Nash and Hall were available. Then have Goldberg join WWE 12 months later and destroy the Alliance.

The Invasion angle missed heavily Rock, Triple H and Benoit who were all out for a variety of reasons.

 

[OneLoneSapper]

It would have been an interesting what if scenario to think, or fantasize about. But I think that even of the "big" names of wCw did decide to show up on Raw instead of sitting home and getting those big checks for not doing anything, it wouldn't have changed a thing.
Vince wasn't going to have WWE/F upstaged by wCw and the Invasion angle was about proving that WWE/F was better. You knew that the wrestlers from wCw weren't going to ever beat the WWE/F wrestlers, because Vince would never book them too. Sure they might get a win here or there, but nothing long term that meant anything.
There were only a couple of guys that Vince had alot of respect for from wCw and I think that was Ric Flair and Sting. He might have booked them in credible matches with meaningful wins. But Kevin Nash? Scott Hall? Goldberg? ..... I don't think so my friends. When the nWo did finally show up he made them look mediocre at best. And Goldberg, he would have had it harder than all the rest. I think it would have been worst of all for him.
Vince knew about Goldberg ending Brett Harts career, by throwing what had to be the stiffest superkick outside of a UFC sanctioned match. And he knew about Goldbergs time off because he decided his arm would win in a fight against a limo's window (the limo window totally won). I think Vince would have viewed him as a green guy who could potentially end the careers of his established draws. And I don't think Vince wanted any of his main attractions like Austin having their careers shortened even further by Goldberg. That being said, he came in at the right time.
You put Goldberg against Austin and 9 times out of 10 Austin is going over, by the fact Vince is booking it. You bring in the nWo at any time and 10 out of 10 times Hogan joins team WWE and Vince throws Shawn Michaels into the nWo . Also Hall falls off the wagon on the road, Nash gets hurt and the angle dies off fast.
The only meaningful wins that wCw would get would come from Flair and Sting, and Flair was in horrible ring shape at the end of wCw. So it really would come down to Sting, and while he is a legend. He is an icon. It wouldn't be enough to save the Invasion angle.

 

[justinept]

This topic comes up all the time, but you're new here so I'll forgive it. The question shouldn't be whether or not it was better. Of course, it's better than what we got. The angle missed for three reasons: 1) The WCW stars weren't involved. 2) Triple H wasn't involved. 3) Vince McMahon's agenda was to bury the WCW brand (not a complaint, just a statement of opinion.) Your proposal definitely fixes TWO of those things, and given the money it would've taken to acquire the WCW stars, it's unlikely VKM would've simply buried his investment (The WCW stars also would've nixed it.) So the question shouldn't be if your idea is better - the question should be how feasible it was. And the answer is that it simply wasn't.

When Vince McMahon purchased WCW, he was buying the trademarks, logos and video library. He wasn't, however, purchasing the contracts because most - if not all - WCW talent was technically under contract by AOL Time Warner. Some of these talents were willing to take a buyout because it provided them the opportunity to wrestle in WWE. That's why you got the "B" talent, a group headlined by Booker T, because going to the WWE early in the process was their best chance to make it there. Stars like Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, Flair, etc had no reason to rush things. They were getting paid to do nothing, and everyone knew that their window to go to the WWE was eternally open.

As for the WWE side of things, you're forgetting two things: 1) Triple H tore his quad prior to the invasion and 2) Shawn Michaels was still mentally and/or physically unable to wrestle. Their involvement simply wasn't going to happen.

 

[abhilash81]

As for the WWE side of things, you're forgetting two things: 1) Triple H tore his quad prior to the invasion and 2) Shawn Michaels was still mentally and/or physically unable to wrestle. Their involvement simply wasn't going to happen.

That's why I mentioned in the topic: A Big "What If??"
I'm just ruling out all the important events that happened (HBK and HHH injuries, for eg.), in order ro create a dream match with possibly the 10 biggest stars of the Attitude Era (Monday night wars, if you will), inserted into it. That's the reason why I didn't take into account the significant events which happened during that period.

 

[daddyJ_t]

i caught the what if. it wouldve been nice to see
austin vs goldberg
sting vs taker
flair vs ??
jarrett(even though a ********er but still talented) vs angle
vince vs bischoff
outsiders vs dx
hogan vs rock
lance storm vs jericho
sid vicious vs kane
filthy animals(rey mysterio jr&billy kidman) vs hardy boys
disco infernbo vs k-kwick
these are just some of the alternates i have devised based on interest or gimmick simularities and based from the seperate rosters of wcw and wwf circa 2001
http://www.willywrestlefest.fr/WcW/Historique/Roster_WcW.htm
http://renardo6.tripod.com/WWF.com/id12.html

 

[xavyer]

If Triple H was active during the invasión angle it would have been a 100 times better, it doesn't matter if he was with team WWE or team Alliance, the guy is a master mind and he could have contributed to the angle in a mayor way, NWO, Golderg or HBK also would have been great, but with only Triple H in the mix it would have been big......

 

[HBsam31]

This thread has been done to absolute death, but if it was possible it would have been absolute awesome. The end result would not have changed though. Vince was never going to paint WCW in any better light than he did. It might have been drawn out a little more, and we most certainly would have had many a dream match. It just wasn't in the cards though. Your big what if scenario is something that every wrestling fan would have creamed over. It is a shame that it didn't happen, but like I said I just don't think the result would have been much different.

 

[abhilash81]

This thread has been done to absolute death, but if it was possible it would have been absolute awesome. The end result would not have changed though. Vince was never going to paint WCW in any better light than he did. It might have been drawn out a little more, and we most certainly would have had many a dream match. It just wasn't in the cards though. Your big what if scenario is something that every wrestling fan would have creamed over. It is a shame that it didn't happen, but like I said I just don't think the result would have been much different.

Yes you are totally right on that point. But who would've cared about the end result when we would've been getting dream match after dream match and this 5 on 5 on top of all that. We as fans know that it's scripted so our 1st preference is always getting to see a very good match. . original 5 on 5 was not A+ material but it was good and praised by a lot of critics. With great wrestlers like Sting, HBK, and HHH being in there, the match could've been more entertaining wih guaranteed good wrestling. And that's the most important thing in fans mind: Getting to witness a good wresrling match, who wins or loses, is a 2nd preference for most of us, atleast for me.

 

[relentless1]

i think if they had all of the WCW superstars the invasion angle could have gone on for a couple years for sure, i think the survivor series matchup would have been WWF vs WCW, Vince vs Eric and nWo vs DX...... Team WWF: Austin, Rock, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, Undertaker vs Team WCW: Goldberg, Sting, Ric Flair, Booker T, DDP. Team nWo: Hollywood Hogan, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Big Show, Scott Stiener vs Team DX: HBK, HHH, X Pac, Billy Gunn, Road Dogg.

 

[Wald]

If we're going on What Ifs I would have delayed the Invasion til Summerslam actually expanded the entire thing over the space of the next 7 months til Wrestlemania to include a Ric Flair led WCW vs the WWF vs the nWo vs ECW and had them play out what their groups mean to the history of wrestling.

I'm going to work only with wrestlers who were signed to a WWF contract in this actual time but WCW could have included Flair, Benoit, DDP, Big Show, Booker T, Regal, Jericho and Kidman.

ECW could have been RVD, Rhyno, Eddie, Raven, the Dudleyz, Tommy Dreamer and Tazz.

WWF could have had Austin, the Rock, Angle, Undertaker, Hardyz, Kane, Edge & Christian with the nWo joining at the same time as they did in real life to inject new energy into the feud and be positioned as a threat to all three factions. Have Nash, Hall, Hogan, X-Pac and have a Big Show turn and that group would be seen as a match for any stable.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

If you have Hogan, Nash, Hall, Sting, Flair, DDP, and Goldberg you don't need an Invasion Angle. You have a constant string of top level feuds and dream matches. Why bother running a huge storyline when the matches and feuds sell themselves? Forget about these five on fives and factions. We all know Vince holds the purse strings regardless. Let it be a good old face verse a bad ass heel.

 

[nhl4life]

Can someone start a forum about this for me because I think it is a good topic for discussion, what if Raven were the stalker to Taker and not DDP?

Raven beat show and kane at X7, thinks he deserves the world title that taker is getting built towards

backlash - allows rhyno to pin him

post backlash the videos start, taker blames everyone and raven frames austin without anyone knowing, building the austin/taker feud. raven starts talking about his destiny, which everyone thinks is the world title but is actually beating taker

Judgement day - raven defeats saturn and sends him packing. post judgement day, taker accepts austin didn't do it and continues his search...videographer says they will reveal themselves at king of the ring

king of the ring - taker waits in the ring for the reveal, video plays of the stalker watching takers wife "live" taker is in shock and looking pissed, raven reveals himself by turning the camera on himself.

invasion - raven is in the main event five on five match, refuses to be in the ring with taker, when taker gets one shot on him, he leaves the ring and heads to the back

summerslam - raven defeats taker

unforgiven - raven defeats taker in a ravens rules match, post judgement day raven talks about how he has zero respect for taker helping to transition taker to his post invasion angle out for respect character

no mercy - main event is raven vs taker hell in a cell - taker wins after delivering the last ride to raven through the cage, followed by a tombstone on a chair

 

[Emmet]

My theory was that Vince should have waited until all the big guns became available and then did the Invasion angle, even if it mean't waiting a year or more.

Without the top guys the angle lacked credibility. Austin turning heel once again and going to the Alliance seemed so forced it wasn't even 1% believable.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

My theory was that Vince should have waited until all the big guns became available and then did the Invasion angle, even if it mean't waiting a year or more.

Without the top guys the angle lacked credibility. Austin turning heel once again and going to the Alliance seemed so forced it wasn't even 1% believable.

I've often wondered if waiting until the "big guns" were available would have been the best move, and I think it probably would have been. When you think that Ric Flair debuted as the new owner of Raw the night after the Alliance was killed off, it makes you think that they could have held off on the angle for a few months until Naitch, the man more synonymous with WCW than anyone else, was able to participate in the angle. Flair leading the WCW troops would have been brilliant. I know he was suffering with anxiety problems at the time but I think it's likely he could have been involved, even just as an on-screen leader without getting in the ring.

The nWo came to the WWF in the February after the Invasion, as Vince's way of destroying the WWF before Flair did, so again had the Invasion angle been put back a few months you could have included Hogan, Hall and Nash in the storyline, giving WCW a roster of:

Hollywood Hulk Hogan
Kevin Nash
Scott Hall
Diamond Dallas Page
Booker T
Ric Flair as an on-screen manager or wrestler if he was well enough to compete.

That is a much more credible line up to take on the WWF forces of Undertaker, Rock, Kane, Jericho, Angle and Austin, and would have meant Stone Cold and Kurt wouldn't have needed to jump to WCW to strengthen their team.

 

[Dum Dum Dudley]

My only problem with waiting for the bigger talent and doing the invasion is who does the job? You run a 5 on 5 SS match of Rock, Austin, Taker DX v NWO, Goldberg and Sting, who the hell is taking the first pin? Vince would just bury the WCW talent like he did with DDP. I see far too much ego for Austin, Hogan, DX or Sting to job out in this match.

All in all, the Invasion was a bit meh but it did it's job in beginning the influx of WCW/ECW talent into the company like Booker T and RVD, who were with the company for a number of years.

 

[Ubermensch]

He should have kept all 3 as separate shows. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose, but the different brands always led to conjecture and 'what ifs' amongst fans. He tried to revamp ECW but it was a joke compared to what it used to be. Buy them out, let Heyman run ECW, let Bischoff run WCW. Rarely intermingle the rosters. Put ECW on Saturday, WCW on Thursday, WWE stays with Raw on Mondays. The only thing they should share is PPVs.

What the invasion angle looked like was botched. WCW guys appeared to be punished by jobbing and losing their jobs to WWE guys. So many WWE guys ended up in the Alliance that it looked ridiculous. Before they unified the belts every match on Raw was a title match. WCW Heavyweight, US, and Tag team belt on WCW show. WWE Heavyweight championship, Intercontinental, and Tag Team on Raw. Heavyweight, TV, and Tag Team on ECW. WWE gets rid of it's Hardcore matches to increase viewership on ECW. No Crusierweight, or Light Heavyweight belts because by then the wrestlers were so intermingled anyway. Pick one show for Womens wrestling (probably Raw). WWE looks more entertaining, WCW has more wrasslin' and kayfabe angles, and ECW keeps the hardcore moniker alive (which has been dead for quite some time).

I realize that was what he tried to do with the roster drafts etc., but wrestlers were traded and the shows were so similar that it didn't matter. Ultimately it boiled down to Vince not realizing what made those shows successful were certain elements they head aside from the WWE. Despite neither the WCW or ECW being viable competitors, they still had a niche audience that made them profitable. When you have ECW and start having guys rolling around with headlocks etc., it's ECW in title only.

 

[MCMG]

I do think letting WCW die was just. He and the WWF deserved that, they won. ECW could have been kept going. With Vince McMahon's backing they could have found a TV deal and they had already done cross promotional stuff. Heyman in charge of a slightly calmer ECW could have done helped create many big names. It is difficult to say but would Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Mysterio, Austin, Foley and RVD all have become stars without ECW - I doubt it.

With regards to the Invasion: I actually liked it. It could have been better but given the names available, I think they did a good job.

Injuries and problems with contracts fucked them a bit. HHH and Benoit were injured and they couldn't bring in Goldberg and Sting. Those four could have made a pretty big difference. Let's look at the 5 on 5 at Survivor Series. The Rock, Jericho, Taker, Kane and Big Show vs Booker T, RVD, Shane, Austin and Kurt Angle. Introduce the four aforementioned names and it is so much better.

Imagine: Austin, The Rock, HHH, Angle and The Undertaker vs Sting, Goldberg, Booker T, Benoit and Jericho (he should have been in team WCW/ECW) That already feels more epic and it would allow mid-card feuds for guys like Kane and RVD. Shane was great but he should never have been in this match.

Going further into the future: Undisputed Champion. I'm fine with Jericho as champ but imagine a long tournament between 8 guys (Austin, Rock, HHH, Jericho, Angle, Booker T, Sting, Goldberg. Even Taker and Benoit.) Incredible for everyone watching. Even if they wanted to extend it into Mania it could have worked.

I liked the angle as a whole but it could have been a lot better/epic with just 3 or 4 names.

 

[Ubermensch]

I agree partially. I do remember when the WCW Invasion angle happened I hadn't felt like such a MARK since the NWO came to WCW. It was a great angle. Once they started intermingling so many WWE wrestlers it lost it's luster and just became another huge stable.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I rewatched the Invasion PPV again this last weekend, I still love it, and it brought back great memories of seeing all these ex WCW and ECW guys debuting on WWE TV or switching sides, what a great period to be a young mid-teens wrestling fan. If the Invasion happened now I would be complaining about the lack of "major" names involved in the Alliance, but at the time it was awesome!

But, there are so many missed opportunities, and other things that WWE could have done to make it even better, WITHOUT needing the major names like Sting, Flair, Goldberg etc, just using the roster they had at the time.

1. Push Mike Awesome

I've said time and time again that Mike Awesome was underutilised in both WCW and WWE. He was the first WCW wrestler to win a title in WWE (the Hardcore belt), and had the size and strength to be a major player in the WWE, but was buried after someone (Undertaker I think?) claimed he couldn't work. If he has been used correctly, he could have been a majort threat to big guys like Kane, 'Taker etc and been a dominant force in the Heavyweight division and as a participant in the Inaugral Brawl or in the Survivor Series team.

I would have loved to have seen Awesome nailing someone like Angle or Rock with an over-the-top rope Awesome Bomb onto a group of wrestlers outside the ring, the pop would have been massive!

2. Reform The Impact Players

WWE had both Justin Credible and Lance Storm under contract as members of the Alliance, and didn't reform The Impact Players, who were one of the best teams in the history of ECW- why did they do this? I know Storm had a short run with the Intercontinental Title, but other than that he had little impact on the Invasion, and Credible was barely used at all. It seems such a waste when the Impact Players could have been involved in the Tag Team Title scene.

3. Chris Jericho should have been a member of WCW/ECW.

Definitely. As a former employee of both WCW and ECW, Jericho should have jumped over to give the Alliance more star power and credibility. Plus, he could have tagged with Lance Storm (if WWE didn't reunite the Impact Players) as The Thrillseekers, his tag-team with Storm from their early days. The two had so much chemistry in the ring.

I would also have had Chris Benoit and Big Show (The Giant) switch sides as well, but I think Benoit was injured at the time of the Invasion, and Show was in OVW to lose weight and have extra training, so unfortunately they were not available.

4. DDP should not have been the "stalker" of Sara

As other posters have said, DDP being the "stalker" of Undertaker's wife Sara never felt right. It was totally the opposite of anything Page had done in WCW and just felt forced. It's especially frustrating to me that Page was chosen for this role when the WWE had the perfect man for the gimmick under contract, in Raven.

Raven's whole character was based around mind games, and his great promo skills would have been perfect for getting inside Undertaker's head like noone ever had before. Plus, WWE could have looked at the success of the angle involving Raven and Sandman's wife Lori in ECW as proof that this would have worked.

DDP was a big star in WCW, and this ridiculous gimmick really limited him during the Invasion, and he ended up just being a minor player when he could have done so much more.


5. Add Jerry Lynn to the Alliance

I've mentioned this before on these forums, but why the hell was Jerry Lynn not involved in the Alliance?! He had been injured but I have seen Shoot Interviews where Lynn says he returned from injury and asked what his role was going to be in the Invasion and was told there wasn't a spot for him...he was a former ECW Champion and it makes no sense to me that he wasn't added to the team of former ECW Champions like Raven, Rhyno, Credible etc. Lynn was a fantastic athlete and could have had fantastic matches for the Intercontinental Title with the likes of Edge, Jericho (if he stayed on team WWF) and many others. He was completely wasted in WWE.

 

[Yosihait]

It's still had good matches. Some of the best matches were from that storylines.

 

[Seosa]

We all wish the big guns had been available for the storyline to work, both for WCW and ECW.

As many have said, ECW weren't even necessary but they could have played a major part in the storyline without joining WCW, which given the history of the two companies made no sense at all. If they had to join sides, they should have joined the WWF with Rock away and Triple H & Benoit injured. Or split the ECW talent and have half join WWF (i.e. the Dudleys, RVD, Dreamer) and the other half join WCW (Raven, Rhyno, etc.).

Even with the talent that Vince took on, he should have made more with it. Booker and DDP should have been booked as the last remnants of WCW who refused to let the company die without a fight. No stalker storylines, no playing lackey with a World title to Shane, just the last 2 'name' stars WCW had making a go of it.

Vince's ego of course meant the storyline was destined to be crushed, but even with the talent that made up the Alliance, the pay-off at Survivor Series could have been good.

Team WWF: Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Angle, Big Show.
The Alliance: Shane, Booker T, DDP, RVD, Tommy Dreamer.

Of course, you could have had Jericho, Show, Eddie etc., jumping to the Alliance but again, history says it would have made no sense considering how they left WCW for the reasons they did in the first place.

Ultimately an epic let down and as Raven said, "you just wanna cut your wrists". Well, maybe not that extreme, but you see his point completely. Wrestling has provided many dream moments, but a true Invasion with the best of the Monday Night War going head-to-head would have topped them all.

 

[Anti-IWC-Marks]

I don't know where people are getting that a faceoff for years of main events wasn't possible.

It entirely WAS possible. The Invasion storyline failed because of nothing but McMahon Ego.

He, like anyone, knows that if you're going to do an Invasion, you have to make the invaders dominate initially and become credible. Remember, this was back when the WWE Universe did not equal the Wrestling Universe. Things couldn't just be covered up. The Elephant in the room was that WCW had huge names, and there was money to be made.

However, anyone who came over initially and didn't play ball was buried. Booker T jobbed to the Rock, DDP did the biggest JOB of all time to the Undertaker, and the Invasion failed. McMahon couldn't even let the Invaders lead themselves, he had to slap Austin AND Angle as "leaders", and even put Shane AND Stephanie as "owners".

This was the worst run invasion in wrestling history. Goldberg, Sting, Steiner, Benoit could have all been brought in for mere amounts of money compared to what would have been earned if done even SOMEWHAT correctly.

Vince just wanted to bust his nut on WCW, and he sure did. The problem is, while he's still successful, it cost him near a billion dollars.

 

[maximf83]

Wwf worked with what they had. It would've been way better if they just had triple h and Benoit for the angle. Nwo Goldberg and Steiner would've added a lot but they couldn't get them signed on time. I really enjoyed that angle contrary on popular belief