Why do Diva's always have to have some kind of message?

FromTheSouth

You don't want it with me.
I am watching SD! on DVR right now, and I am annoyed. Mickie James is out here talking about "rising above" and "being true to yourself."

What a crock of shit. Wrestling is a lot of things, but an agent of social change, it is not. This is not the first time a women's champion has come out and tried to inspire little girls, and I think it's fucking terrible. Teaching little girls to rise above the mean girls while walking around half naked and making sure that everyone knows they have their job because of their body is ridiculous mixed message.

It's a lot easier to "rise above" when you look like Kelly Kelly than it is when you look like Vickie Guerrero.

John Cena is the kid friendly men's wrestler, and you never see him trying to give a social message. Now and then he may talk about doing the right thing, but that's just playing a face. He always talks about doing what's good for him. He never wins a title "for" anyone, other than himself.

Why do the girls feel the need to tell the world who they are trying to inspire?


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How about a way to expand the fan base? How many little girls watch WWE? I'd assume not many. And sure, it sickens a lot of people....but those little girls with barbie's might say "Hey! Daddy's watching wrestling and there's a girl talking about me!" Taa Daa...she's watching wrestling.
 
Because a role model is far less different for Boys then it is for Girls. John Cena can be a role model for the kiddies because he is perceived as a "superhero" of sorts. Girls want a role model who tells them it's ok to not be the Kelly Kelly's of the world. So yes, it is easier for a Kelly Kelly to "rise above" then a Vickie Guerrero, hence why it is more important for the Vickie Guerreros and the Mickie James who need to say it more so that little girl who might not be the prettiest girl in school can believe in herself.
 
I couldn't disagree any more. Face champions are supposed to be people to look up to. If there wasn't any sort of sense of overcoming obstacles or good vs bad, then why would we like or cheer for a champion?

Cena not giving a social message?!? Have you seen his latest shirt? Never Give Up....that's not a message? C'mon now. What do you have against positive divas?
 
I couldn't disagree any more. Face champions are supposed to be people to look up to. If there wasn't any sort of sense of overcoming obstacles or good vs bad, then why would we like or cheer for a champion?

Cena not giving a social message?!? Have you seen his latest shirt? Never Give Up....that's not a message? C'mon now. What do you have against positive divas?

I don’t have anything agents positive divas. However I am aghents hypocrite divas. Mackie wasn’t exactly cheerleader material when she was in school, so she changed her image from an ugly loser to a beautiful diva. The difference, well if the ugly Mackie was still ugly and wanted to be in WWE she would get the boot from Vince because she’s not hot enough. A woman who has talent and wants to be in WWE isn’t enough to get there. It's 10% wrestling ability and 90% looks. As much as I detest that, it is true, Beauty=push while Ugly=comedic relief. I would never let my maybe future daughter wrestle in WWE no matter what she looks like. She'll either be treated like crap or a piece of meat.
 
This is stupid, wrestling is good vs bad at the core, with good coming thru in the end to inspire and give hope to young kids. So what if mickie James is hot, she can still know right from wrong and make it clear because that's what good people do. Cena with no social messages??! Really?! Haha. So wrestling can be hypocritical sometimes but it has to appeal to everyone, that's just good business sense.
 
Hmm, "rising above" and "being true to yourself" aren't necessarily always good things.

Think about it, what if you're a mass murderer? What if being a mass murderer is being true to yourself? I'd rather you NOT be true to yourself then! I would rather you be true to society's standards of not murdering :lmao:

And "rising above", to some, could make them feel like they need to act like they're better than everybody. CM Punk "saving" everybody is a perfect example of rising above...to be better than you!

So I'm saying, just because something may sound nice, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's actually good in action.

And also, WWE isn't an after school special, it's people beating the crap out of each other. Leave the ethics to the professionals.
 
I agree completely. The idea that mickie is going to inspire some little girl is ridiculous especially if the message is you should be proud of your body. I think mickies fake breasts and her recent weight loss that was urged by the higher ups have something to say about that. Mickie is being a hypocrite yet people commend her for trying to inspire little girls. Yet if cm punk gets on the mic and says straight edge is the way to go people say shut up and wrestle its ridiculous. The last person that should be a role model for young girls is mickie james unless shes trying to inspire girls to do porn then shes a prime candidate.
 
The last person that should be a role model for young girls is mickie james unless shes trying to inspire girls to do porn then shes a prime candidate.
Yeah that was classy.

I disagree with the original poster. While I do understand where you are coming from I still am on the other side of the fence. Mickie showed that through her hard work she can be at the top. Just because she worked out more and slimmed down doesn't mean that she's a bad person. Would it appeal to you more for her to have gotten as big as that fat suit Layla wore then become champ then tell people it's ok to be who you are? No! People would have come on here and bashed her more about her weight gain and sais she should shape up. The fans are usually more hypocritical than anyone in wrestling.

And to palaceprince. So what if she got surgery on her chest and slimmed down. If you noticed she got the implants BEFORE joining OVW so Im pretty sure she wanted them herself. Nothing wrong with that. She got in bette condition. So what? As I said above you probably would have beent he first to say that she needed to shapen up.
 
I actually applauded her as she was making her speech because it was basically a middle finger aimed at every one of her critics. To make it in Vince McMahon's diva section, you most always have to be a Barbie of some sorts. Some of the best WRESTLING divas are no longer in the WWE because they didn't fit the Barbie mold, such as Victoria (who I thought was beautiful) and Molly Holly. To hear Mickie James come out and talk about rising above and being true to yourself is an EXCELLENT message that every little girl needs to hear. Mickie James is not a Maryse body double, she's not thin like Kelly Kelly and yet she's champion, that's a solid message for young women struggling with their identities.

As for her implants, it's a possibility that it was requested of her by WWE management, though I'm not sure completely, just speculation. Also, to the poster that brought up her history in porn, who cares? She did things in her past and has moved on. If she was still doing porn and telling little girls to rise above the cookie cutter world they need to live in, then I'd say she is hypocritical and needs to keep her mouth shut.

And how in the world did John Cena get brought into this? Can we not have a discussion without Cena?
 
I actually applauded her as she was making her speech because it was basically a middle finger aimed at every one of her critics.

She missed me. I criticize her for being a botchfest, no matter how ugly she is.

To make it in Vince McMahon's diva section, you most always have to be a Barbie of some sorts.

Well, since women's wrestling is pure crap, that makes perfect sense to me.
Some of the best WRESTLING divas are no longer in the WWE because they didn't fit the Barbie mold,

Because, if they aren't attractive, they have no point.

such as Victoria (who I thought was beautiful) and Molly Holly. To hear Mickie James come out and talk about rising above and being true to yourself is an EXCELLENT message that every little girl needs to hear.

Next week she can tell every little girl to show her vagina to the world.

Mickie James is not a Maryse body double, she's not thin like Kelly Kelly and yet she's champion, that's a solid message for young women struggling with their identities.

If you're not comfortable with yourself, but fake tits!!! What a great message.

As for her implants, it's a possibility that it was requested of her by WWE management, though I'm not sure completely, just speculation.

Actually, it's slander. She got them well before she was in developmental.
Also, to the poster that brought up her history in porn, who cares? She did things in her past and has moved on.

I care, because you're praising her for being a role model and her history makes that argument a non starer.

If she was still doing porn and telling little girls to rise above the cookie cutter world they need to live in, then I'd say she is hypocritical and needs to keep her mouth shut.

No, I'm pretty sure that her ever being in porn limits her ability to be a good role model to little girls.

And how in the world did John Cena get brought into this? Can we not have a discussion without Cena?

Because women's wrestling is that boring. Hence, the need for models.
 
I sometimes have to wonder. With all the heat Mickie has taken for her body image the last few months i can honestly see why she would consider this to be an issue. When trish Straus started with the WW whatever, she was considered T and A... come to think of it she was managine T and A so it made a certain amount of sense. But in the end she became a standout female wrestler on her own merits. I do honestly think women wrestlers do have an important part in the industry and that while the E might make them look like bimbos or treat them like crap the truth is there are alot of female wrestlers that transcend that image. Move beyond the E. look at Daffney, who isnt the "Prm Queen" but who is a talented athlete. the list goes on, Awesome Kong, MsChif, Hamada. There are alot of women wrestlers who get over not based on appearence so much as their in ring abilities. And you have the Gail Kims, the Trish Stratus's the Lita's, the Victoria's/Tara's who are both physically "Hot" ( which is more in the person looking at them's perspective than anything else) and are gifted in ring workers. I see nothing wrong with them having positive role models in wrestling and I believe that it opens the doors to more female fans who will have something more in common with them, then with Batista or Cena
 
I think Mickie James is the wrong wrestler to use as the fighter for real women everywhere. Google is the new stay at home parent, so it won't be difficult for one of the little girls she's "inspiring" to search her name and find her posing nude or going Girls Gone Wild on Jenny Jones.

I'm all for WWE having a pro-natural woman character, but Mickie is the wrong person. WWE may be the wrong company all together to have such a character. When you look at the history of WWE gimmicks that were about good values and not being about selling sex, those gimmicks were usually heels: Ivory in Right to Censor & Molly Holly.

If they want to push the message that a woman should be all she can be rather than all she's expected to be, then they wouldn't have started calling Mickie a pig in the first place (even though she was under performing, though I'm not sure that was due to her weigh gain). Or they could have pushed Beth Phoenix as a legit wrestler vs some males.
 
There is a lot of hypocricy on both ends of this argument. While I did find it amusing that in a promo cut a few weeks ago, Mickie talked about being satisfied with what g-d gave you (given of course a Dr, not g-d gave her those things holding her top up), I do think the story has struck a chord and has a purpose.

No matter what a person's past, many would agree and believe that it is possible to grow and learn from mistakes and become better people. If those people happen to be WWE wrestlers, it might actually be MORE important to show those people in a positive light because it means more when you know the downfalls of going down the wrong road. Think about when you were in high school. When your clean cut teacher told you not to do drugs, did you listen? What about the recovering drug addict who lost everything and is attempting to turn his life around? Which do you think strikes more of a chord? As such, people like R-Truth and MVP are being pushed despite checkered pasts, and specifically in MVP's case, they consistently bring up his past to show that by learning the right way, you can stilil be successful. This does not mean to suggest you should go to jail to learn, it is to suggest that if he did things right the first time, he could have been younger and had success. I would argue that damn near all the employees of WWE have some kind of skeletons in the closet, so the argument not to present them as heroes is pretty pointless. Add in the fact that they are playing a character and their real life usually doesn't play into the character and making that argument just isn't fair.

As for Mickie, it's kind of hypocritical to talk about her "porn past". It was one magazine, but I ask how this is any different than the WWE's mass marketing of superstars such as Sable, Torrie Wilson, Chyna, Ashley Massaro, Candice Michelle, and Maria in playboy? Are these women incapable of being role models? I haven't seen anyone counter-argue with them. Maria did it most recently and no one is getting on her about it. Add in the fact that Mickie's "work" was done well before her WWE career began, and I don't think it's fair to define her life based on an event many many years ago. A more sensible argument would actually be to wonder how a psychopath stalker could ever become a role model because that's what she debuted as, so anyone watched for 5 years knows that she came in as a nutcase, so who's to say she still isn't one? Again, people change, and I suppose characters change too. Keep in mind, WWE fans are the same people that radically cheered an alcoholic, a foul mouthed jerk who insulted everyone, they're cheered guys who break the law on screen, cheered pretty much anyone as long as they have the right, jerky opponent. To get on the WWE about this message seems to pale in comparison.

I do think it's a little crazy though to get on Mickie about being so fat. Hell, I actually think she's about perfect in her body type. I do think that plays into it though in that she's a "real woman with curves" while Michelle is the anorexic bitch that thought she was hot in high school but secretly everyone hated her. It's a relateable story and that's why it has caught on. Of course, having a woman stand up for essentially being a normal woman is probably cool. Mickie is actually a unique individual who will be embarking on a singing career (and she can sing, google her doing karaoke with Jeff Hardy, I think you'll like it), and she has a love and passion for Morgan Horses. She's not a "dumb blonde" type and I think that in and of itself is a better image than just "i look like a woman" so I kind of wish they would have pushed that aspect more. As it is, she succeeded in beating the bullies and she delivered a message about it. Sure, it might be a little preachy, but then again, a lot of face stuff can often sound that way to those who grew up in the attitude era and think faces have always been jerks taking on even bigger jerks. Today's heels are nasty and the faces often times try to portray having truly good qualities. Mickie is portraying that at this point and she does it well. I can tell you from my limited experience with Mickie (met her at a Morgan Horse show she attended that my Uncle was involved in and she is a sweetheart) and anyone who has encountered her would probably get that vibe right away. She's awesome and pushing her as the "every woman" seems just about right. I personally hope she expands her message to include her interests and not just looks, but for now, it's about being brunette, being curvy, and being awesome.

And by the way, I think it would be irresponsible to actually promote someone truly fat as "being happy with who they are" because obesity is a disease and a real problem in this country. The fact is, this story was done KNOWING Mickie isn't that fat because she's "fat" in the eyes of someone that believes having girl curves is bad. I think that's why it plays perfectly.
 
What else do you seriously think they are going to do with the WWE's Diva Division? Give them multiple matches with 20 minute long contests as the main event? I don't think so.

These girls are used as eye candy, despite the talent some of the women have in that category, and the WWE will basically script everything to make that the focus rather than good matches. They think that we are stupid enough that we are focusing on their bodies rather than the matches so we wouldn't notice the botches. So, since having them do occasional Bikini Contests or teasing us by having them wrestle, they decided to through in some other elements as well, like trying to reach out to the people. Who else would have the time and the character to do this without conflict of schedule (both kayfabe and real life)?

Mickie James is at the point in her character and career where she is able to give these sorts of speeches, whether you like it or not. She has the mic skills, the status and the storyline to say these things. It's a message to say that you can do anything you like, and why shouldn't people be encouraging positive behaviour like this? Would you prefer her to say to everyone "go smoke some pot because that's the highest achievement you'll ever get in your lifetime?" She's a face character with a following, and these people give speeches like this. R-Truth speaks of telling the truth and being honest, MVP discusses that everyone has a second chance to get themselves back on track... Mickie's voice of reason comes by saying you don't need to follow the trends or be your birth weight to be with the times. What is wrong with that?

As long as the messages, ones that are heartfelt speeches done to actually get through to the fans, aren't about everything wrong with morality, then there should be no problem with Diva's sending messages to the WWE Universe.
 
My issue isn't that someone with Mickie's past can't have a positive outlook on life in the future. But I question WWE risking some other media outlet looking up Mickie's past and using it against WWE for some bad press.

I don't question the idea to have a woman be positive and not be the usual diva, but I question their choice of talent to send that message.
 
Poɘt;1792799 said:
My issue isn't that someone with Mickie's past can't have a positive outlook on life in the future. But I question WWE risking some other media outlet looking up Mickie's past and using it against WWE for some bad press.

I don't question the idea to have a woman be positive and not be the usual diva, but I question their choice of talent to send that message.

Sure, the choice of talent can backfire on them with Mickie having those photo's and all, but the same could be said for MVP. The man was a convict, so why should he be cheered? Reason is because he has changed himself and become a new person, despite what he has done in the past.

That's the same ideal with Mickie. She has done those photo's in the past, but she has matured into someone else and really has cleaned her slate. She has gone from the rough talking, hardcore-esque Alexis Laree to this fighter for the real women Mickie James. And I think it suits that they have someone with a shaddy past to come out and change their ways. It has more of an impact than say, someone who has been good all their lives. It would be like CM Punk now, preaching his straight-edge lifestyle, because he has been known for a while to be straight-edge. Mickie hasn't been known to be the good girl all her life, so the speech suits.
 
I am watching SD! on DVR right now, and I am annoyed. Mickie James is out here talking about "rising above" and "being true to yourself."

What a crock of shit. Wrestling is a lot of things, but an agent of social change, it is not. This is not the first time a women's champion has come out and tried to inspire little girls, and I think it's fucking terrible. Teaching little girls to rise above the mean girls while walking around half naked and making sure that everyone knows they have their job because of their body is ridiculous mixed message.

Don't be such a smark. Not every fan sitting at home is saying "Oh please, these bitches are only there for me to wank off to." There are people that will listen to her message, so is it such a bad thing to frame an angle around it?

It's a lot easier to "rise above" when you look like Kelly Kelly than it is when you look like Vickie Guerrero.

Oh look at you, you got a boner joke in. Congrats.

John Cena is the kid friendly men's wrestler, and you never see him trying to give a social message. Now and then he may talk about doing the right thing, but that's just playing a face. He always talks about doing what's good for him. He never wins a title "for" anyone, other than himself.

So why can't Mickie James play face and argue for a certain way to act? Sexist.

Why do the girls feel the need to tell the world who they are trying to inspire?

Why can Punk go around as a heel saying that Straight Edge is the only way to live? He is arguably trying to encourage others to give up drugs and alcohol.

Why can Cena go around as a face and argue that you should treat everyone with respect and dignity?

Why can Jericho go around as a heel preaching that everyone should just forget the haters, and live/act as they want?

Oh, I know. It's because the Divas are supposed to be stupid eye candy. Please. Mickie James is being used to apply at least a resemblance of a storyline to the Divas. Don't get pissy.
 
Because a role model is far less different for Boys then it is for Girls. John Cena can be a role model for the kiddies because he is perceived as a "superhero" of sorts. Girls want a role model who tells them it's ok to not be the Kelly Kelly's of the world. So yes, it is easier for a Kelly Kelly to "rise above" then a Vickie Guerrero, hence why it is more important for the Vickie Guerreros and the Mickie James who need to say it more so that little girl who might not be the prettiest girl in school can believe in herself.

I agree with almost everything that you said - BUT do you really put Vickie Guererro and Mickie in the same class?

lol

No I think sometimes messages get overplayed but I dont think I have seen a positive female role model in some time so I wont complain about that.
 
Wrestling in itself is basically a fairytale, the good guys always win in the most important matches, and always end up coming out on top in the biggest feuds. The whole Mickie James storyline can be seen as a little corny, but it's not like it's the first corny thing that's ever happened in wrestling, and a lot of females can relate to the whole "mean girls" thing that's going on with Michelle and Layla. It's clearly working, as Michelle is getting some pretty good heat now and the support for Mickie is as strong as ever, and a storyline that started out as a stupid segment with bad taste has turned into one of the shining highlights of SmackDown every single week. Just because it "sends a message" doesn't mean it's not entertaining.
 
Because little girls don't want to cheer for women who don't seem to pay any attention to them at all?

This is relatively basic stuff. You mention that male wrestlers do it, but that's because they're faces. Whats the difference?

If John Cena says something like, 'I had to do the right thing', it's the same as him saying, Kids, you should do the right thing. He has a t-shirt that is in the same vain as Eating your vitamins and saying your prayers, though obviously updated. Hustle (work hard), Loyalty (don't betray your friends, Respect, (don't be a bad guy, little kids.)

It's all the same. Some female wrestlers are worse off on the mic, so they have to say certain things directly, when their male counterparts can dance around it. But, it's all in the same sense.
 
I don't think the divas do always have to have a message to be honest with you. What's Jillian Hall's message? Singing like a tool will alienate people? That's some social change I can buy into. In all seriousness, while Mickie James may not exactly dress in the fashion I'd want my 7 year old daughter to, I'd much prefer that she had someone like James as a role model rather than the divas we had in the past. What would you prefer as a role model? Mickie James saying that you should be happy with your body, or The Kat flashing her tits?
 
This might be sexist, but I wouldn't want my daughter, if I had one, to be a fan of wrestling. I mean, for one I wouldn't want my girl going into wrestling, or some real version where she gets beat up on. Also, what positive message does it really send?

I mean, they can have Mickie James deliver a positive message all she wants, but at the end of the day, every Diva will take a backseat to the men, thats one thing, if an important guy has something to say the Divas will get overlooked and often used as part of a stroyline. Also, I don't get how Mickie James specifically is a positive roll model. Like if you can be as hot as her and still be called Piggy James then what do the girls with truly less than outstanding looks think?

If WWE really wanted to send a positive message they would go TNA's way and focus on girls that can actually wrestle instead of hiring models and trying to make them wrestlers.

As a male fan I really don't care though. It just annoys me when the WWE tries to do things on way or another and end up in the middle. With the Divas they want to make them PG but the whole reason they were hired was for T&A purposes, thats real. Of all the Divas today, I think Gail Kim, Mickie James, and umm I think thats it were wrestlers before hand. All the other girls were hired because they were hot.

Its the same thing as D/X being PG, and Wrestling as a whole being PG. D/X is garbage as a PG group, whats the point? Wrestling as PG is garbage too. The show is centered around violence, doesn't get less PG than that, you try to neuter it and you lose important aspects of the show.
 
I believe the reason is because what else do they have ? Theres no more Sex in the storylines. Theres never really been too much talent as far as majority in divas division. And theirs really no interest in using divas that do apparently. So whats left. Make them seem like they have use without those two factors ( 1 Sex and 2 Talent). So make Mickie James a beautiful, yet bigger woman who got on the WWE's bad side (and is an ex Porn Star) become a sign for girls like her everywhere. Now at least there is we have a reason to care. So diva with message gets people to care.
 
I believe the reason is because what else do they have ? Theres no more Sex in the storylines. Theres never really been too much talent as far as majority in divas division. And theirs really no interest in using divas that do apparently. So whats left. Make them seem like they have use without those two factors ( 1 Sex and 2 Talent). So make Mickie James a beautiful, yet bigger woman who got on the WWE's bad side (and is an ex Porn Star) become a sign for girls like her everywhere. Now at least there is we have a reason to care. So diva with message gets people to care.

You're crazy. The idea of calling her a bigger woman is ridiculous, an obvious indication that you buy into, or "mark out" (ouch) the WWE's and Hollywood's idea of what you should define as pretty. Good job in doing that. It's still real to you.
 

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