Install the app
How to install the app on iOS
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: this_feature_currently_requires_accessing_site_using_safari
- The WrestleZone Forum Archives
- The Interactive (Tournament) Archives
- Interactive Archives
- Debater's League
- Debator's League 2009
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Week 5: hiphopa-pokemon -versus- IC 25
- Thread starter Mr. TM
- Start date
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
I have selected to debate that the independent wrestling scene will never die out. I await my opponent's opening remarks.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
I was under the impression that, as the home debator, I selected my position and my opponent made the opening post. If I was mistaken, or if my opponent prefers it, I'd be more than happy to make an opening post. I am really excited to post on this topic.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
IC25 Explains why Indy Wrestling will ALWAYS be around
Indy wrestling will never die. Ever. No questions asked, no disputes arise. And there are numerous reasons why this is the case, which I plan to lay out for you in a clear, concise fashion.
1. Basic Supply and Demand.
First and foremost, I want to establish this ground rule - professional wrestling is a business, and it operates largely in the United States of America, a capitalist nation. It also exists in Canada and the UK, which are also both countries that practice some form of free enterprise. In countries where the market system is one of free enterprise, one law will ALWAYS be in place - the law of supply and demand.
In terms of supply, it's important to realize that there are thousands of "professional wrestlers" in the United States, 98% of whom we will never see on television. Many of them are part-time wrestlers who attended schools and choose to wrestle locally more for fun than for money, more for a rush of adrenaline than for fame or vocation. Yes, it is risky, and many would even argue that it isn't smart. But there are enough men and women out there who want to wrestle professionally, and perhaps dream of getting to work with WWE or TNA, that the market has supply.
To further illustrate my point of supply, please read this list of current, unaffiliated professional wrestlers who are competing in the indy scene: 911, Tank Abbott, C.W. Anderson, Eric Angle, Buff Bagwell, Steve Blackman, Elijah Burke, Ludvig Borga, Lance Cade, Steve Corino, Danny Doring, Nick Dinsmore, Gangrel, Chris Hero, Orlando Jordan...the list goes on and on...
Finally, on the supply point, I have provided a link to a 2007 list of indy wrestling promotions in the USA:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/independentwrestling/usa.html
On the flip side, we know demand exists, at least to some extent. Indy shows are often local and inexpensive - Indy leagues exist for the same reason unaffiliated minor league baseball exists, and for the same reason discount outlet retailers exist. People may be fans of professional wrestling, but since WWE and TNA don't come around as much, and tickets to their events can be expensive, indy scenes receive some of those fans.
In addition, indy promotions often fill a niche that the "Big Two" miss. Look at the old ECW. That was an indy promotion that satisfied the demand for a more raw, hardcore style of professional wrestling. In addition, it also went on to satisfy the demand for smaller, more agile wrestlers to be featured. Today, ROH satisfies a demand for a more technical style of wrestling, built more around in-ring work and less around storylines and drama. As long as there is a demand for these niches and wrestlers to supply it, there will be a market for indy wrestling.
2. Large federations don't want it to die out.
Current WWE World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk is a former God of the indy wrestling scene. WWE took a chance on him years ago and groomed him as a top star from day one. Why? Because they could. He was battle tested, had a following, and knew his way around a ring because of his work in the indy circut. He required less time than a homegrown kid from a local school or an actor / bodybuilder / MMA fighter with zero experience would.
WWE and TNA know that their "training / proving grounds" are limited. There are flaws with the developmental systems. The indy scene creates new talent, and WWE and TNA have the luxury of sifting through the wannabes and finding the 1-3% of the people who have what it takes to be a star.
In addition, the indy scene keeps the hardcore fans interested. It fuels the message boards that increases the discussion about the industry, and since WWE and TNA combine for likely over 90% of the market share, ANY fan buzz about the industry is beneficial.
Competition aside, why would WWE or TNA ever want the local, indy promotions to go away?
So there are my first two reasons the indy scene will never die. I certainly do await a response from my opponent this week, at which time I will unleash additional reasons as well as any rebuttal I need to make. Good luck to my opponent.
The Hiphopapotamus
The Dude abides
Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, judges, my esteemed opponenent, I'm here today to explain to you why I firmly believe the Independent scene will die out and I urge you to agree with me.
The Indy scene will die out eventually. It's inevitable. Firstly, let me describe to you what an independent promotion is and how it measueres up with the larger promotions such as the WWE. An independent promotion usually is based in one area, using local talent or popular indy wrestlers. There are notable exceptions to this however, like Pro Wrestling Guerrilla on the west coast and CHIKARA on the east coast. These promotions work around the country, getting most income from live shows and DVD sales. Independent promotions don't have television exposure. Ring of Honor could be considered an independent promotion, but It's more inbetween. I wouldn't consider it a true indy. Indy promotions don't have weekly shows, they have events that often run on for a few days every few weeks. They travel from town to town competing in arenas such as gymnasiums, bingo halls or even outdoors.
The indy scene will never measure up to the talent and abilities in the major promotions. The indy scene is made up of wrestlers who couldn't make it to the top companies, so obviously they don't match up to entertainment value. Indy promotions lack any sort of out of ring entertainment such as microphone work or promos. They rarely constitute feuds, they usually book like a boxing or MMA promotion, random matches that should be good. These matches are usually just spot fests, with no psychology and just move to move action. However, don't believe that I said ALL of them are, there are a lot of exceptions, like Samoa Joe vs CM Punk just for an example. Indy matches are like movies consisting of mindless action and violence, while most major promotions matches (not all) actually have a story, a reason for the action and violence that makes sense and entertains those who aren't just primitively exhilirated by guys jumping really high and dropping opponents on their heads.
One of the main selling points of independent promotions is the atmosphere and experience of a live show. But as the modern era approaches, and high definition television, larger televisions and surround sound create a much more realistic experience. If someone has the choice of being able to watch the WWE on a 42 inch HD tv, or travel to the local bingo hall and watch IWA Mid South, most sane people would choose the former. Watching in your own living room allows you to have whatever you want. No annoying fans.
(embedding disabled, fuck)
[youtube]FO_dKSIeaws[/youtube]
With the invention of Sky+ or TiVo (whatever you call it, sorry I don't know), you will never miss anything. Gone to a wedding, just push a button and it's recorded, while the indy wrestling event isn't. Need a toilet break. Pause. Can't do that at an indy show.
With these increases in technology, and the fact the major promotions on TV are free to watch besides PPVs, many people will eventually realise that indy promotions will soon be worthless. With the current recession, people will rather watch free shows then pay for a show that doesn't even match up in quality.
And it's not like these promotions don't allow people to go. They have around 3 or 4 televised events a week, aswell as house shows, so fans won't be left starving for live shows should they want it.
Injuries are so much more common in indy shows. Because they lack the in ring psychology and storytelling, aswell as talent, they resort to dangerous spots and moves to entertain the crowd. Head drops are much more common.
[youtube]ajVygsf6ZSU[/youtube]
Piledrivers are incredibly rare in the WWE and TNA, with the Gringo Killah being the only move that matches. And how often do we see that. For example, Super dragon, arguably the most popular indy wrestler of the last while, hasn't wrestled since summer of last year, due to multiple concussions. "Sick" Nick mondo was forced to retire relatively early into his career due to the injuries he sustained while wrestling the ultraviolent style in CZW. Stuff like this.
If people keep on doing stuff like this people will decide that they don't want to risk their bodies doing this stuff. And those who do choose to do it, well, there also needs to be a company with money and a crowd, and due to the reasons I have already stated, I seriously doubt there will be many of them left.
But if the WWE or TNA decided that they wanted to turn a few promotions into their own private breeding grounds, and let the rest die out, it's just like sifting through the indies, except it's also part of their own developmental system.
However, as I've already stated, the shows on TV are not only better, but they're on free television. Well you pay for the channel, but it's not like you're only paying for that show. You get a huge variety.
I am in no way saying that tomorrow the indy scene will just be wiped out tomorrow. I'm not an idiot. But over time, and through increases in technology, maybe the improvement of a promotion or two such as ring of Honor into the same field as TNA or WWE, and over years, maybe even a generation or 2, the independent wrestling scene, at least those not affiliated to major promotions, will cease to exist.
Note: I apologise to my opponent and the judges for my lack of punctuality, but with a combination of school, sports and a selfish mother who is taking up the internet, I have been left with very little internet time, but I managed to squeeze this in.
The Indy scene will die out eventually. It's inevitable. Firstly, let me describe to you what an independent promotion is and how it measueres up with the larger promotions such as the WWE. An independent promotion usually is based in one area, using local talent or popular indy wrestlers. There are notable exceptions to this however, like Pro Wrestling Guerrilla on the west coast and CHIKARA on the east coast. These promotions work around the country, getting most income from live shows and DVD sales. Independent promotions don't have television exposure. Ring of Honor could be considered an independent promotion, but It's more inbetween. I wouldn't consider it a true indy. Indy promotions don't have weekly shows, they have events that often run on for a few days every few weeks. They travel from town to town competing in arenas such as gymnasiums, bingo halls or even outdoors.
The indy scene will never measure up to the talent and abilities in the major promotions. The indy scene is made up of wrestlers who couldn't make it to the top companies, so obviously they don't match up to entertainment value. Indy promotions lack any sort of out of ring entertainment such as microphone work or promos. They rarely constitute feuds, they usually book like a boxing or MMA promotion, random matches that should be good. These matches are usually just spot fests, with no psychology and just move to move action. However, don't believe that I said ALL of them are, there are a lot of exceptions, like Samoa Joe vs CM Punk just for an example. Indy matches are like movies consisting of mindless action and violence, while most major promotions matches (not all) actually have a story, a reason for the action and violence that makes sense and entertains those who aren't just primitively exhilirated by guys jumping really high and dropping opponents on their heads.
One of the main selling points of independent promotions is the atmosphere and experience of a live show. But as the modern era approaches, and high definition television, larger televisions and surround sound create a much more realistic experience. If someone has the choice of being able to watch the WWE on a 42 inch HD tv, or travel to the local bingo hall and watch IWA Mid South, most sane people would choose the former. Watching in your own living room allows you to have whatever you want. No annoying fans.
(embedding disabled, fuck)
[youtube]FO_dKSIeaws[/youtube]
With the invention of Sky+ or TiVo (whatever you call it, sorry I don't know), you will never miss anything. Gone to a wedding, just push a button and it's recorded, while the indy wrestling event isn't. Need a toilet break. Pause. Can't do that at an indy show.
With these increases in technology, and the fact the major promotions on TV are free to watch besides PPVs, many people will eventually realise that indy promotions will soon be worthless. With the current recession, people will rather watch free shows then pay for a show that doesn't even match up in quality.
And it's not like these promotions don't allow people to go. They have around 3 or 4 televised events a week, aswell as house shows, so fans won't be left starving for live shows should they want it.
Injuries are so much more common in indy shows. Because they lack the in ring psychology and storytelling, aswell as talent, they resort to dangerous spots and moves to entertain the crowd. Head drops are much more common.
[youtube]ajVygsf6ZSU[/youtube]
Piledrivers are incredibly rare in the WWE and TNA, with the Gringo Killah being the only move that matches. And how often do we see that. For example, Super dragon, arguably the most popular indy wrestler of the last while, hasn't wrestled since summer of last year, due to multiple concussions. "Sick" Nick mondo was forced to retire relatively early into his career due to the injuries he sustained while wrestling the ultraviolent style in CZW. Stuff like this.
If people keep on doing stuff like this people will decide that they don't want to risk their bodies doing this stuff. And those who do choose to do it, well, there also needs to be a company with money and a crowd, and due to the reasons I have already stated, I seriously doubt there will be many of them left.
Current WWE World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk is a former God of the indy wrestling scene. WWE took a chance on him years ago and groomed him as a top star from day one. Why? Because they could. He was battle tested, had a following, and knew his way around a ring because of his work in the indy circut. He required less time than a homegrown kid from a local school or an actor / bodybuilder / MMA fighter with zero experience would.
WWE and TNA know that their "training / proving grounds" are limited. There are flaws with the developmental systems. The indy scene creates new talent, and WWE and TNA have the luxury of sifting through the wannabes and finding the 1-3% of the people who have what it takes to be a star.
But if the WWE or TNA decided that they wanted to turn a few promotions into their own private breeding grounds, and let the rest die out, it's just like sifting through the indies, except it's also part of their own developmental system.
On the flip side, we know demand exists, at least to some extent. Indy shows are often local and inexpensive - Indy leagues exist for the same reason unaffiliated minor league baseball exists, and for the same reason discount outlet retailers exist. People may be fans of professional wrestling, but since WWE and TNA don't come around as much, and tickets to their events can be expensive, indy scenes receive some of those fans.
However, as I've already stated, the shows on TV are not only better, but they're on free television. Well you pay for the channel, but it's not like you're only paying for that show. You get a huge variety.
I am in no way saying that tomorrow the indy scene will just be wiped out tomorrow. I'm not an idiot. But over time, and through increases in technology, maybe the improvement of a promotion or two such as ring of Honor into the same field as TNA or WWE, and over years, maybe even a generation or 2, the independent wrestling scene, at least those not affiliated to major promotions, will cease to exist.
Note: I apologise to my opponent and the judges for my lack of punctuality, but with a combination of school, sports and a selfish mother who is taking up the internet, I have been left with very little internet time, but I managed to squeeze this in.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
An independent promotion usually is based in one area, using local talent or popular indy wrestlers. There are notable exceptions to this however, like Pro Wrestling Guerrilla on the west coast and CHIKARA on the east coast.
It's similar in ways to the territory system, only there are two truly major players who make it harder for the indy guys to make money and be recognized.
These promotions work around the country, getting most income from live shows and DVD sales.
Probably almost exclusively. They market themselves as live entertainment you can't see anywhere else. They market former stars. It's all trying to get you to attend the live show. Absolutely.
Independent promotions don't have television exposure. Ring of Honor could be considered an independent promotion, but It's more inbetween. I wouldn't consider it a true indy.
Hang on, why isn't ROH an indy? Because it's successful? ECW was an independent promotion in the 90's the acheived a TV deal, ROH has almost done the same. ROH is absolutely an indy promotion.
The indy scene will never measure up to the talent and abilities in the major promotions.
Ok.
Right.
Wait, are we debating the same thing? I am not trying to match up the indy promotions AGAINST the products of WWE and TNA. I hope you're not inferring that I am. Of course the indy's can't match up with WWE and TNA, I never said they did. I am merely saying that the indy scene isn't endangered, and isn't going out of business.
The indy scene is made up of wrestlers who couldn't make it to the top companies, so obviously they don't match up to entertainment value.
Very similar to minor league baseball, indoor soccer, etc. The Newark Bears can't match up against the resources of the New York Yankees. But the thing you said last...entertainment value? Maybe the indy's can't match up with the LEVEL of entertainment that TNA and WWE provide, just as the Newark Bears can't match the entertainment LEVEL of the Yankees. But when indy promotions and the Bears charge $5 - $10 for a ticket, and the WWE charges $40, that changes the VALUE of the experience. When that $5 indy ticket gets you ringside, and that $40 WWE ticket gets you upper deck, the proximity to the action changes the VALUE of the experience. When the indy guys who were former WWE stars (Al Snow, Brian Christopher, etc) hang out and sign autographs for the 500-1000 fans in attendance after a show, and Randy Orton speeds off in his car after a WWE show, that changes the VALUE of the experience.
What you have to realize is that there is a major difference between total level of entertainment and entertainment value. Call it "bang for your buck." If you're a wrestling fan, and you can see a local pro wrestling show for a total of $25 after you factor in drinks (and consider you may even get some autographs out of it) vs a WWE show that will run you $75-$100 (plus another $30 if you dare to buy a t-shirt), you may think the indy show is a better value.
Indy promotions lack any sort of out of ring entertainment such as microphone work or promos. They rarely constitute feuds, they usually book like a boxing or MMA promotion, random matches that should be good.
What you are describing here is basically something different from what WWE and TNA provide. A "niche" if you will. It actually serves to further prove my point. The indy feds offer a niche product - old school fans can go and feel like wrestling is a real sport or a competition at indy shows, as opposed to the hybrid soap opera / comedy skit that is the weekly WWE show. All the more reason the indy feds are here to stay - they fill a niche.
These matches are usually just spot fests, with no psychology and just move to move action.
Similar to TLC and RVD vs Lynn, both matches that many fans consider to be "five star classics." Spot fests with no psychology, but they provide visual and athletic spectacle, and ergo, fill a niche.
One of the main selling points of independent promotions is the atmosphere and experience of a live show. But as the modern era approaches, and high definition television, larger televisions and surround sound create a much more realistic experience. If someone has the choice of being able to watch the WWE on a 42 inch HD tv, or travel to the local bingo hall and watch IWA Mid South, most sane people would choose the former.
You're again operating under the premise that it's "one or the other" or even that WWE is directly competing with these indy feds. They're not. Who's to say that a fan won't watch RAW on Monday Night and go see an indy show on Friday night or Saturday, especially with Smackdown spoilers available? And what indy show in their right mind would book an event on Monday Night anyway?
You're trying to compare WWE, TNA, and Indy Feds as if apples to apples. They're not.
With the invention of Sky+ or TiVo (whatever you call it, sorry I don't know), you will never miss anything. Gone to a wedding, just push a button and it's recorded, while the indy wrestling event isn't. Need a toilet break. Pause. Can't do that at an indy show.
Wait, wait, wait...let's back up a second. Didn't you JUST say that the increase in technology - the HDTV stuff - would serve to further kill the indy feds? But now you're saying that Sky+ and TiVo will?
Dude - if WWE or TNA is on TV, and a local indy fed is holding a show the same night - who's to say someone wouldn't TiVo the WWE show so they could go to the indy event? You mention a wedding, you mention a toilet break - but you didn't realize that the wonderous technology you are trying to use to kill the indy feds could also help it survive. Why? Because WWE programming on Monday nights and Friday nights is no longer required viewing.
And with your bathroom break logic, that's as flawed as it comes. By that logic, why would WWE and TNA have live events? Same issue arises. In fact, let's close down Major League Baseball parks and ONLY air the games on TV because people deserve to be able to go pee without missing a pitch.
With these increases in technology, and the fact the major promotions on TV are free to watch besides PPVs, many people will eventually realise that indy promotions will soon be worthless.
But WWE still sells out major events, TNA stills draws a crowd, and indy shows still bring out fans. Why? Because nothing beats the live experience.
With the current recession, people will rather watch free shows then pay for a show that doesn't even match up in quality.
And yet those same people in the recession can afford cable, HDTV, and TiVo.
If you want to argue the recession, simply re-read my point from above. Indy ticket - $10. WWE ticket - $40. Recession math done.
Injuries are so much more common in indy shows. Because they lack the in ring psychology and storytelling, aswell as talent, they resort to dangerous spots and moves to entertain the crowd. Head drops are much more common.
And another warm body will be right in to take their spot, because of supply. There are literally hundreds of indy promotions in the United States. A few guys get hurt during the year, it's not going to crumble the system.
"Sick" Nick mondo was forced to retire relatively early into his career due to the injuries he sustained while wrestling the ultraviolent style in CZW.
Yet people still know who he is. And they know who the Necro Butcher is. Because their hardcore indy style fills a niche, which is why it's not going anywhere.
But if the WWE or TNA decided that they wanted to turn a few promotions into their own private breeding grounds, and let the rest die out, it's just like sifting through the indies, except it's also part of their own developmental system.
Dude, HUNDREDS of indy promotions exist. Do you know what will happen if WWE buys 4 of them and TNA buys 1? NOTHING. If Bank of America buys 4 more local banks in Alabama and Chase buys 2 in Texas, are you prepared to sign over the entire treasury department to them?
However, as I've already stated, the shows on TV are not only better, but they're on free television.
And as I've already stated, indy promotion shows aren't going to REPLACE the TV shows of the major promotions, they are merely going to remain viable in a major industry.
Indy promotions - small, mobile, flexible, niche promotions - aren't going to die out. As long as they continue to produce a product that people want to see, even if they only appeal to the truly hardcore fan, they aren't going to be swallowed up by the WWE or TNA. The same way underground punk rock is still around, the same way minor league baseball attracts crowds, and the same way the local liquor store in your town can still compete with Bottle King.
The Hiphopapotamus
The Dude abides
It's similar in ways to the territory system, only there are two truly major players who make it harder for the indy guys to make money and be recognized.
And if these indy guys keep failing to make money, what makes you so sure that they will continue. Like you said, independent promotions are a business, and a business must make money. If they aren't, they're done.
Probably almost exclusively. They market themselves as live entertainment you can't see anywhere else. They market former stars. It's all trying to get you to attend the live show. Absolutely.
Hang on, why isn't ROH an indy? Because it's successful? ECW was an independent promotion in the 90's the acheived a TV deal, ROH has almost done the same. ROH is absolutely an indy promotion.
Independent promotions are not featured on television. ROH is. And I never claimed it wasn't an indy. I said how it was inbetween, an indy with a tv deal. No other indy can say that.
Ok.
Right.
Wait, are we debating the same thing? I am not trying to match up the indy promotions AGAINST the products of WWE and TNA. I hope you're not inferring that I am. Of course the indy's can't match up with WWE and TNA, I never said they did. I am merely saying that the indy scene isn't endangered, and isn't going out of business.
And I'm arguing how the big companies ARE endangering them. It's a debate. And I showed how their talent doesn't match up, which is obvious, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Very similar to minor league baseball, indoor soccer, etc. The Newark Bears can't match up against the resources of the New York Yankees. But the thing you said last...entertainment value? Maybe the indy's can't match up with the LEVEL of entertainment that TNA and WWE provide, just as the Newark Bears can't match the entertainment LEVEL of the Yankees. But when indy promotions and the Bears charge $5 - $10 for a ticket, and the WWE charges $40, that changes the VALUE of the experience. When that $5 indy ticket gets you ringside, and that $40 WWE ticket gets you upper deck, the proximity to the action changes the VALUE of the experience. When the indy guys who were former WWE stars (Al Snow, Brian Christopher, etc) hang out and sign autographs for the 500-1000 fans in attendance after a show, and Randy Orton speeds off in his car after a WWE show, that changes the VALUE of the experience.
No offence intended, but what Indy shows do you go to. Maybe Ring of Honor might draw that much when they wrestle in the Hammerstein Ballroom or the old ECW arena, but other than that, no indy promotion is going to draw that much.
As for Brian Christopher and Al Snow signing autographs, you fail to realise TNA does this at their house shows. Team 3D and others sign autographs. It's not just exclusive to the indys.
What you have to realize is that there is a major difference between total level of entertainment and entertainment value. Call it "bang for your buck." If you're a wrestling fan, and you can see a local pro wrestling show for a total of $25 after you factor in drinks (and consider you may even get some autographs out of it) vs a WWE show that will run you $75-$100 (plus another $30 if you dare to buy a t-shirt), you may think the indy show is a better value.
You MAY think that it's better value. But it depends on the quality of the show also. A piss poor show for 25 will not be the same value as an awesome show for 75. And hey, if you want value, why not go watch Impact taped for free. It's based in one spot, like a lot of indys.
What you are describing here is basically something different from what WWE and TNA provide. A "niche" if you will. It actually serves to further prove my point. The indy feds offer a niche product - old school fans can go and feel like wrestling is a real sport or a competition at indy shows, as opposed to the hybrid soap opera / comedy skit that is the weekly WWE show. All the more reason the indy feds are here to stay - they fill a niche.
If they want that, Ring of Honor is there. And before you say HDnet might not be available, neither might an indy. Hey, Ireland has one Indy, Irish Whiplash Wrestling. But I can never get to a show. Because I live outside dublin and I'm too young to drive.
Similar to TLC and RVD vs Lynn, both matches that many fans consider to be "five star classics." Spot fests with no psychology, but they provide visual and athletic spectacle, and ergo, fill a niche.
I for one love spot fests, hell I love the X division, one of the few. But I couldn't watch a full show of them. Things get old.
You're again operating under the premise that it's "one or the other" or even that WWE is directly competing with these indy feds. They're not. Who's to say that a fan won't watch RAW on Monday Night and go see an indy show on Friday night or Saturday, especially with Smackdown spoilers available? And what indy show in their right mind would book an event on Monday Night anyway?
Someone who has something better to do on a friday or saturday?
You're trying to compare WWE, TNA, and Indy Feds as if apples to apples. They're not.
Why not? Last time I checked, they were wrestling promotions.
Wait, wait, wait...let's back up a second. Didn't you JUST say that the increase in technology - the HDTV stuff - would serve to further kill the indy feds? But now you're saying that Sky+ and TiVo will?
Dude - if WWE or TNA is on TV, and a local indy fed is holding a show the same night - who's to say someone wouldn't TiVo the WWE show so they could go to the indy event? You mention a wedding, you mention a toilet break - but you didn't realize that the wonderous technology you are trying to use to kill the indy feds could also help it survive. Why? Because WWE programming on Monday nights and Friday nights is no longer required viewing.
Wait, back up a little, didn't you just say:
You said:And what indy show in their right mind would book an event on Monday Night anyway?
Odd.
And with your bathroom break logic, that's as flawed as it comes. By that logic, why would WWE and TNA have live events? Same issue arises. In fact, let's close down Major League Baseball parks and ONLY air the games on TV because people deserve to be able to go pee without missing a pitch.
It was just for convenience. Obviously not the main thing wrong with watching thing's live. People with big heads are that.
But WWE still sells out major events, TNA stills draws a crowd, and indy shows still bring out fans. Why? Because nothing beats the live experience.
Unless the TV experience is better than the live one. Like say Impact versus Barely Regulated American Wrestling league. That fed sounds delightful
And yet those same people in the recession can afford cable, HDTV, and TiVo.
Becasue these things come with other stuff rather than just wrestling. You get other channels and whatnot. My Sky+ package not only gives me TNA and WWE, but soccer, rugby, NFL, movies, documentaries, and other shows.
If you want to argue the recession, simply re-read my point from above. Indy ticket - $10. WWE ticket - $40. Recession math done.
WWE on TV- 15 per month(For me). That's 4 shows, all superior to the Indy show.
And another warm body will be right in to take their spot, because of supply. There are literally hundreds of indy promotions in the United States. A few guys get hurt during the year, it's not going to crumble the system.
But as more people start watching the big promotions, the indys feel the need to take bigger risks. And hence more injuries occur.
Yet people still know who he is. And they know who the Necro Butcher is. Because their hardcore indy style fills a niche, which is why it's not going anywhere.
So you support people destroying themselves?
And as for the hardcore style not going anywhere, well if Injuries continue, that won't be the case.
Dude, HUNDREDS of indy promotions exist. Do you know what will happen if WWE buys 4 of them and TNA buys 1? NOTHING. If Bank of America buys 4 more local banks in Alabama and Chase buys 2 in Texas, are you prepared to sign over the entire treasury department to them?
But if TNA buy the bigger ones like PWG and CHIKARA, and take their talent, ie the ones who keep many of the small promotions afloat, such as Chris Hero, Super Dragon, than these promotions will fail. Eventually. It will be slow, but eventually.
And as I've already stated, indy promotion shows aren't going to REPLACE the TV shows of the major promotions, they are merely going to remain viable in a major industry.
Indy promotions - small, mobile, flexible, niche promotions - aren't going to die out. As long as they continue to produce a product that people want to see, even if they only appeal to the truly hardcore fan, they aren't going to be swallowed up by the WWE or TNA. The same way underground punk rock is still around, the same way minor league baseball attracts crowds, and the same way the local liquor store in your town can still compete with Bottle King.
I can't say the same for the states, because I have never been there, but in Ireland, the recession is a big deal when it comes to the small businesses falling to the Tescoes and Dunnes'. Not every one is going, but one in every several small shops is collapsing, and if this happens in wrestling,eventually, as I keep stating, Indy's will cease to exist.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Did you intentionally wait until the last possible moment to post? Couldn't handle another rebuttal?
That's ok. The recent news of the WWE signings of McGuinness and Danielson just proves my point at the perfect time - WWE wants these indy's alive, and is just sending them more and more credibility with Punk as champ and these new guys set to make a splash. Not to mention Seamus O'Shaugnessey, etc...
That's ok. The recent news of the WWE signings of McGuinness and Danielson just proves my point at the perfect time - WWE wants these indy's alive, and is just sending them more and more credibility with Punk as champ and these new guys set to make a splash. Not to mention Seamus O'Shaugnessey, etc...
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Clarity Of Debate: IrishCanadian25, you outlined things nicely, and that's what counts the most with respect to this criterion. Hippopotamus, your argument was structured nicely, but ALWAYS remember to separate your rebuttals from your argument. It not only gives you two posts, but, if they come in rapid succession, then that makes you look more determined to win, which can score you points on emotionality.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IrishCanadian25 gets the point here.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: Both of you brought in a good amount of information. IrishCanadian25, your argument was a little too theory driven. One of your main arguments relied on simple supply-demand analysis, but this didn't account for some of the market peculiarities that may exist for American professional wrestling. For instance, would WWE and TNA ever engage in predatory pricing? Or, are independent promotions facing rising costs that cannot be offset by innovation, and is demand for their product very/perfectly elastic? I encourage people to bring in theory, but, to make it effective, you must back it with a substantial amount of evidence. Hippopotamus, you kept it simple, and it worked.
Point: Hippopotamus
Emotionality: This is a tough one for me. IrishCanadian25 went on the offensive first, but you bit right back, Hippopotamus. Since IrishCanadian25 will get the next point and since I can't split points, I'll give this to Hippopotamus.
Point: Hippopotamus
Persuasion: IrishCanadian25, one part of your argument hit home, and that was that independent promotions serve as a source of recruitment for WWE and TNA. I buy that, so I'm giving you the point here.
Point: IrishCanadian25
tdigle's Score
Hippopotamus: 2
IrishCanadian25: 3
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IrishCanadian25 gets the point here.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: Both of you brought in a good amount of information. IrishCanadian25, your argument was a little too theory driven. One of your main arguments relied on simple supply-demand analysis, but this didn't account for some of the market peculiarities that may exist for American professional wrestling. For instance, would WWE and TNA ever engage in predatory pricing? Or, are independent promotions facing rising costs that cannot be offset by innovation, and is demand for their product very/perfectly elastic? I encourage people to bring in theory, but, to make it effective, you must back it with a substantial amount of evidence. Hippopotamus, you kept it simple, and it worked.
Point: Hippopotamus
Emotionality: This is a tough one for me. IrishCanadian25 went on the offensive first, but you bit right back, Hippopotamus. Since IrishCanadian25 will get the next point and since I can't split points, I'll give this to Hippopotamus.
Point: Hippopotamus
Persuasion: IrishCanadian25, one part of your argument hit home, and that was that independent promotions serve as a source of recruitment for WWE and TNA. I buy that, so I'm giving you the point here.
Point: IrishCanadian25
tdigle's Score
Hippopotamus: 2
IrishCanadian25: 3
Clarity Of Debate: Hip would clean up a lot easier with better laid out debates. However, he has improved, and if I gave this point for improvement, then I would give Hip this, however, IC was the better, and gets this point.
Punctuality: IC25 gets the point here.
Informative: I think there was a lack of gathering the easy points of the debate here that would have won the debate for the debater with a great back up for the other. But because of this, you two had to rely on the shaky points. Hip brought up some great points and IC tied to balance them more, but Hip gets this.
Emotionality: IC pretty much gets this point time and time again from me, I love the way he debates, and he does it probably better than anyone on this site (maybe excluding GD who has done great).
Persuasion: And in the end, IC had the easiest side of the debate, and was good enough with his side that he gets this point. He wins this point.
TM rates this IC25 4 points to Hip 1.
Punctuality: IC25 gets the point here.
Informative: I think there was a lack of gathering the easy points of the debate here that would have won the debate for the debater with a great back up for the other. But because of this, you two had to rely on the shaky points. Hip brought up some great points and IC tied to balance them more, but Hip gets this.
Emotionality: IC pretty much gets this point time and time again from me, I love the way he debates, and he does it probably better than anyone on this site (maybe excluding GD who has done great).
Persuasion: And in the end, IC had the easiest side of the debate, and was good enough with his side that he gets this point. He wins this point.
TM rates this IC25 4 points to Hip 1.
Clarity: Like others, I'm a sucker for bold. Even if it is just a few points bolded that are outlined. IC always outlines his arguments and structures a few points in his opening post.
Point: IC25
Punctuality: Hip was late, IC gets it.
Point: IC25
Informative: IC brought up some good points, but like the others said, it was a little more theoretical than concrete. Hip had some good points and backed them up.
Point: hiphopa-pokemon
Emotionality: IC I think has gotten this point from me more often than not. He always has that desire to win, and constantly will attack his opponents.
Point: IC25
Persuasion: It is hard to argue that the Indys provide a niche that people like to watch. Wrestling would be a true monopoly if the day ever came that WWE or whoever took over the entire industry. I don't see that ever happening. IC did a great job pointing that out.
Point: IC25
CH David scores this IC25 4, hiphopa-pokemon 1.
Point: IC25
Punctuality: Hip was late, IC gets it.
Point: IC25
Informative: IC brought up some good points, but like the others said, it was a little more theoretical than concrete. Hip had some good points and backed them up.
Point: hiphopa-pokemon
Emotionality: IC I think has gotten this point from me more often than not. He always has that desire to win, and constantly will attack his opponents.
Point: IC25
Persuasion: It is hard to argue that the Indys provide a niche that people like to watch. Wrestling would be a true monopoly if the day ever came that WWE or whoever took over the entire industry. I don't see that ever happening. IC did a great job pointing that out.
Point: IC25
CH David scores this IC25 4, hiphopa-pokemon 1.
Clarity: This IC25 chap seemed to do a good job
Point: IC25
Punctuality: IC again, something to do with bad timekeeping
Point: IC25
Informative: IC25 went a bit overboard, hard to explain. Hiphop did a better job of balancing out the info
Point: hiphopa-pokemon
Emotionality: IC25 nearly made me laugh, but thats not why he gets the point.
Point: IC25
Persuasion: Hiphopa did a good job of convincing me, IC did a better one, he convinced me with 50 rep points.
Point: IC25
I score this one
IC25: - 4
Hiphopa-pokemon: - 1
Point: IC25
Punctuality: IC again, something to do with bad timekeeping
Point: IC25
Informative: IC25 went a bit overboard, hard to explain. Hiphop did a better job of balancing out the info
Point: hiphopa-pokemon
Emotionality: IC25 nearly made me laugh, but thats not why he gets the point.
Point: IC25
Persuasion: Hiphopa did a good job of convincing me, IC did a better one, he convinced me with 50 rep points.
Point: IC25
I score this one
IC25: - 4
Hiphopa-pokemon: - 1
Similar threads
- Replies
- 11
- Views
- 2K
- Replies
- 6
- Views
- 1K
- Replies
- 10
- Views
- 2K
- Replies
- 6
- Views
- 1K
Users who are viewing this thread
Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)