WCW Region, Third Round: Embarrassment Match: (4) Kurt Angle vs. (5) Mick Foley

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the WCW Region. It is an embarrassment match held in the Phillips Arena in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rules: This is a regular match but can only end when a wrestler uses the opponent's designated finisher. Assume wrestlers do nothing that would result in a disqualification.

#4. Kurt Angle

Designated Finisher: Angle Slam

Vs.

#5. Mick Foley

Designated Finisher: Mandible Claw

​

Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Assume the wrestlers are at full strength after their first two matches.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

If Foley can hit the Claw without having to put on Socko, he could actually pull this off. It's a much easier finisher to apply than Angle's Slam (not that that is terribly difficult either, but Foley is heavy enough that it might split the gap slightly.) This was an awesome draw for Foley, IMO. Still not 100% which way I am going to vote though.

Read it wrong, reverse everything I said, Foley is beyond fucked here.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Not even you Foley fan boys can put him over Angle here. Angle is a world class athlete and has won an Olympic gold medal. Foley lost his ear in Germany and took bumps that would kill any normal human being.

Angle hits the Mandible Claw, with or without Socko.

It's true. It's DAMN true!

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I don't think the result is in doubt here. Foley is good, but he isn't on the level of Kurt Angle, who is one of the greatest of all time.

Mick had a fantastic career for someone not blessed with much actual wrestling or athletic ability, but his run in this tournament ends here. Kurt will pick apart Foley, before using the Mandible Claw to take the win. I just can't see Foley hitting an Angle Slam on Kurt. I'd expect Foley to put up a good fight as always, but Angle moves on.

Winner: Kurt Angle

 

[Agent_of_Anarchy]

Had this of been a hardcore/no dq type of stipulation then maybe one*could*make a small case for Foley. But it isn't, and Foley is fucked. Which is a shame, because Mick Foley is my absolute favorite of all time. But no amount of reasoning can allow him a victory over Kurt Freakin Angle.
Although I may still vote Foley, so at least he gets one vote.

 

[Con T.]

Here's the thing here; Foley's hold is a mandible claw.
Meaning, it's a nerve hold. Well, for it to be the mandible claw, Foley would need to add extra pressure somewhere, right? Otherwise it wouldn't be a nerve hold, it would just be a guy stuffing his fingers down someone throat.

You know who realizes what nerve you have to hit for the mandible claw to be effective? Mick Foley.

You know who probably doesn't? Kurt Angle.

I'll just throw that out there, and see how that feels. Oh, and before I get that Kurt is a master submission guy, and that he'd figure it out... There's a reason no one else has done the mandible claw as a finisher.

Just throwing that out there. Haven't chosen who I'm voting for, but I don't think it's as clear cut as people think it is. Both were secondary, complimentary players in their era. Foley just happened to be known for being one of the most famous luminaries in wrestling, a best selling author, and a guy with wins over The Rock and Steve Austin (in their prime) on his résumé.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Mick Foley is known for losing high profile matches, I don't think he would go over Kurt Angle regardless of what the stipulation is. This stipulation works in the favour of Kurt Angle as he used his opponent's finishers effectively against them in the past, in his matches against AJ Styles, The Rock, Steve Austin, etc.. I don't think Mick Foley ever has (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just throwing that out there. Haven't chosen who I'm voting for, but I don't think it's as clear cut as people think it is. Both were secondary, complimentary players in their era. Foley just happened to be known for being one of the most famous luminaries in wrestling, a best selling author, and a guy with wins over The Rock and Steve Austin (in their prime) on his résumé.

Kurt Angle has beaten Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Brock Lesnar all in their primes, through submission as well might I add. On top of that he is the only wrestler in history to make Hulk Hogan (past his prime), Undertaker (past his prime) tap out and one of the three men in history to make John Cena (before his prime) tap out. He has beaten Mick Foley through submission as well in TNA.


Kurt Angle wins.

 

[Con T.]

Mick Foley is known for losing high profile matches, I don't think he would go over Kurt Angle regardless of what the stipulation is. This stipulation works in the favour of Kurt Angle as he used his opponent's finishers effectively against them in the past, in his matches against AJ Styles, The Rock, Steve Austin, etc.. I don't think Mick Foley ever has (correct me if I'm wrong).



Kurt Angle has beaten Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Brock Lesnar all in their primes, through submission as well might I add. On top of that he is the only wrestler in history to make Hulk Hogan (past his prime), Undertaker (past his prime) tap out and one of the three men in history to make John Cena (before his prime) tap out. He has beaten Mick Foley through submission as well in TNA.


Kurt Angle wins.

Angle has lost plenty of high profile matches, too.

Quick question; have any idea what Kurt Angle's record in title matches is, at Wrestlemania?

0-4.

And if I really want to get technical with it, Angle lost twice at Wrestlemania 16, so you could say 0-5.

Kurt's beaten those men, he's also lost to them. Much like Mick Foley, though Foley did it all during a time of booming business.

There's an argument to be made for Kurt Angle. It shouldn't involve Foley doing a lot of jobs, because Kurt does his fair share, too.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Angle has lost plenty of high profile matches, too.

Quick question; have any idea what Kurt Angle's record in title matches is, at Wrestlemania?

0-4.

And if I really want to get technical with it, Angle lost twice at Wrestlemania 16, so you could say 0-5.

Kurt's beaten those men, he's also lost to them. Much like Mick Foley, though Foley did it all during a time of booming business.

There's an argument to be made for Kurt Angle. It shouldn't involve Foley doing a lot of jobs, because Kurt does his fair share, too.

Sure Kurt Angle has lost more WrestleMania matches than he has won but I don't see how that matters as this isn't a WrestleMania match. If you take into consideration all of Kurt Angle's PPV wins he would have more wins than losses, Mick Foley would have more losses than wins.

There is a difference between losing to talent on the same level as you and losing to the likes of a rookie Randy Orton and Edge after his short run as WWE champion. Mick Foley is the wrestler used to put over talent that the WWE sees potential in and elevate that talent to the next level at his expense, he did it with two wrestlers I mentioned above, he did it with The Rock and Triple H as well. If this match were to occur in both Kurt Angle and Mick Foley's primes, Foley would help Kurt Angle get over like he has done to many other wrestlers in the past.

At the end of the day, Mick Foley made a legacy of being a part of the most brutal moments in history, most of which in matches he lost. Kurt Angle on the other hand made a legacy of putting on some of the finest wrestling matches in history. Mick Foley lost most of his greatest matches against the likes of Undertaker and Triple H, Kurt Angle has won most of his against the likes of Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Undertaker.

 

[Con T.]

Sure Kurt Angle has lost more WrestleMania matches than he has won but I don't see how that matters as this isn't a WrestleMania match. If you take into consideration all of Kurt Angle's PPV wins he would have more wins than losses, Mick Foley would have more losses than wins.

Well, a good portion of your argument (which is faulty) reasons that Kurt Angle wins bigger matches. And while he wins them, he also loses them.

Again, I'm not disputing that Foley jobs. But Angle is as willing to do the job. And if you'll allow me to pull a list of names Kurt did the job to, on PPV no less...

Edge
RVD
Samoa Joe
Randy Orton
JBL
Wes Brisco
Jay Lethal

Do I really need to go past Jay Lethal?

There is a difference between losing to talent on the same level as you and losing to the likes of a rookie Randy Orton and Edge after his short run as WWE champion.

You should really be careful about using those two... Kurt lost to them both on Pay Per View.

And he lost to Edge, when Kurt was in his prime. Foley losing out of his prime to both these men is accepted. Just realize, Kurt's lost to both these men, as well.

Mick Foley is the wrestler used to put over talent that the WWE sees potential in and elevate that talent to the next level at his expense, he did it with two wrestlers I mentioned above, he did it with The Rock and Triple H as well.

And as I just showed you, Angle did the same thing, as well.

Here's the funny thing, too. When Mick does it, he elevates names to main event status. He makes them better than they actually are.

Kurt Angle jobs to people like Jay Lethal and Wes Brisco.

Jay Lethal and Wes Brisco aren't even in the companies that hired them, to begin with. In fact, one year after Angle gave the rub to young Wes Brisco, Wes was doing a big pile of sitting on my ass, because I got fired.

If this match were to occur in both Kurt Angle and Mick Foley's primes, Foley would help Kurt Angle get over like he has done to many other wrestlers in the past.

This is also a tournament to crown the best wrestler of all time.

Oh, and Angle will cede to the way of age, when called for it. See; Sting.

At the end of the day, Mick Foley made a legacy of being a part of the most brutal moments in history, most of which in matches he lost. Kurt Angle on the other hand made a legacy of putting on some of the finest wrestling matches in history.

And losing, as well.

Mick Foley lost most of his greatest matches against the likes of Undertaker and Triple H, Kurt Angle has won most of his against the likes of Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Undertaker.

A. Kurt Angle never won another one on one match with HBK after Wrestlemania 21. He actually lost twice on TV, and drew him.

B. Counting PPV and TV matches, Angle's record against Benoit is 7-5-1. That's a winning record, but that looks pretty damn even to me.

C. One on one, Angle's record with Taker is 4-3-3.

Like I said, there's a compelling point to make for Angle. This isn't that point, to me.

Also, while I'm at it, has anyone addressed my Mandible Claw point? Because that is legit. I know I've been trolling a vast majority of this tournament, but I've yet to see someone address that. I'll even include it here, again.

Here's the thing here; Foley's hold is a mandible claw. Meaning, it's a nerve hold. Well, for it to be the mandible claw, Foley would need to add extra pressure somewhere, right? Otherwise it wouldn't be a nerve hold, it would just be a guy stuffing his fingers down someone throat.

You know who realizes what nerve you have to hit for the mandible claw to be effective? Mick Foley.

You know who probably doesn't? Kurt Angle.

 

[Bernkastel]

This match is a coin toss to be honest. Any attempts to argue Angle being this superior draw, with superior matches, and legacy would probably be wrong. Because the truth was that he wasn't. They were probably very much on par with each other. Both men were upper mid carders through the majority of their careers, and maintained plenty of relevance. Mankind might be a slightly better qualitative draw, while Angle was a better quantitative draw. He certain has had more longevity.

Anywho tough call. It's probably going to come down to personal choice. Angle probably has the advantage over a brawler like Foley being a technical wrestler and all, but *flips coin* imma go with my heart this time and vote Foley.

And it's not like the Angle slam is an exceedingly hard maneuver to execute, especially if Angle has to put on Mr. Socko first to use the mandible claw. He'd probably walk out.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Well, a good portion of your argument (which is faulty) reasons that Kurt Angle wins bigger matches. And while he wins them, he also loses them.

Again, I'm not disputing that Foley jobs. But Angle is much more willing to do the job. And if you'll allow me to pull a list of names Kurt did the job to, on PPV no less...

Edge
RVD
Samoa Joe
Randy Orton
JBL
Wes Brisco
Jay Lethal

Do I really need to go past Jay Lethal?



You should really be careful about using those two... Kurt lost to them both on Pay Per View.

And he lost to Edge, when Kurt was in his prime. Foley losing out of his prime to both these men is accepted. Just realize, Kurt's lost to both these men, as well.



And as I just showed you, Angle did the same thing, as well.

Here's the funny thing, too. When Mick does it, he elevates names to main event status. He makes them better than they actually are.

Kurt Angle jobs to people like Jay Lethal and Wes Brisco.

Jay Lethal and Wes Brisco aren't even in the companies that hired them, to begin with. In fact, one year after Angle gave the rub to young Wes Brisco, Wes was doing a big pile of sitting on my ass, because I got fired.



This is also a tournament to crown the best wrestler of all time.

Oh, and Angle will cede to the way of age, when called for it. See; Sting.



And losing, as well.



A. Kurt Angle never won another one on one match with HBK after Wrestlemania 21. He actually lost twice on TV, and drew him.

B. Counting PPV and TV matches, Angle's record against Benoit is 7-5-1. That's a winning record, but that looks pretty damn even to me.

C. One on one, Angle's record with Taker is 4-3-3.

Like I said, there's a compelling point to make for Angle. This isn't that point, to me.

Also, while I'm at it, has anyone addressed my Mandible Claw point? Because that is legit. I know I've been trolling a vast majority of this tournament, but I've yet to see someone address that. I'll even include it here, again.

When Kurt Angle put Randy Orton over it was back in 2006, which was after he had already beaten him via submission a month earlier and after Randy Orton was done with a huge feud with The Undertaker. Big difference between that and losing to a Randy Orton that had little to no big name wins, at Backlash in a stipulation that favours Mick Foley.

The matches Kurt Angle lost to Edge and Jay Lethal were through roll-ups, making the victories look as if they were fluke victories and even after those losses Kurt Angle ended up returning to a main-event scene, in a short amount of time. The same way Triple H lost to Shelton Benjamin and Jeff Hardy. Doesn't mean much. They weren't dominant wins and they were done to take the X-Division title off Kurt Angle and to give Angle a reason for his new bald haircut.

Also, I'm not talking about Kurt Angle's win/loss record overall with his opponents. I'm simply stating he has won his greatest matches, whereas Foley has lost his:

- Kurt Angle V. Shawn Michaels - WM 21
- Kurt Angle V. Undertaker - No Way Out 2006
- Kurt Angle V. Chris Benoit - Royal Rumble 2003

- Mick Foley V. Triple H - Royal Rumble 2000
- Mick Foley V. Undertaker - KOTR 1998
- Mick Foley V. Steve Austin - OTE 1998

As for you mandible claw point, I don't see how it is relevant in the slightest, it isn't a hard finisher to replicate. All the wrestler has to do is stick their middle and ring fingers into soft tissue under the opponent's tongue with their thumb under the chin, squeezing the mandible between them which, when applied correctly, can cause intense and legitimate pain. (From Foley's book).

The reason no other wrestler used it other than Foley is because it is a disgusting maneuver, not a hard one to replicate.

Like I mentioned before Kurt Angle has used opponent's finishers against them in the past, moves he never utilized before, he would have no issue using Foley's finisher against him.

 

[Con T.]

When Kurt Angle put Randy Orton over it was back in 2006, which was after he had already beaten him via submission a month earlier and after Randy Orton was done with a huge feud with The Undertaker. Big difference between that and losing to a Randy Orton that had little to no big name wins, at Backlash in a stipulation that favours Mick Foley.

Well, now that loss to Edge looks even worse for Kurt Angle, who's best win was against, what, Gangrel? Owen Hart.

Losing to Edge is pretty similar to losing to losing to Randy Orton. And I'd rather have lost past my prime (as Foley did) than in my prime (as Angle did)

The matches Kurt Angle lost to Edge and Jay Lethal were through roll-ups,

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know we could excuse losses, if they were by roll ups. My god, thank you for telling me. Well, here's what I'm about to do.

Mick Foley's losses to the The Rock at Survivor Series and the Royal Rumble no longer count, because Mankind never really submitted.

Sorry, doesn't work that. Losing is losing.

Also, I'm not talking about Kurt Angle's win/loss record overall with his opponents. I'm simply stating he has won his greatest matches, whereas Foley has lost his:

- Kurt Angle V. Shawn Michaels - WM 21
- Kurt Angle V. Undertaker - No Way Out 2006
- Kurt Angle V. Chris Benoit - Royal Rumble 2003

- Mick Foley V. Triple H - Royal Rumble 2000
- Mick Foley V. Undertaker - KOTR 1998
- Mick Foley V. Steve Austin - OTE 1998

Ah, so we're cherry picking our wins and losses, too? Great, let me get right on that.

- Kurt Angle V. Brock Lesnar- WM 19
- Kurt Angle V. Eddie Guerrero- WM 20
- Kurt V. Randy. Rey- WM 22

(God, that's a lot of WM losses.... Anyway...)

- Mick Foley V. Rock- Raw, December, December 28, 1998 (which was really his greatest moment, and you're dumb if you say otherwise.)
- Mick V. Triple H V. Austin- Summerslam 99
- Mick V. Undertaker- Boiler Room Brawl, Summerslam 96

See what I did there?

As for you mandible claw point, I don't see how it is relevant in the slightest, it isn't a hard finisher to replicate. All the wrestler has to do is stick their middle and ring fingers into soft tissue under the opponent's tongue with their thumb under the chin, squeezing the mandible between them which, when applied correctly, can cause intense and legitimate pain.

Well, gee, I bet Kurt Angle will have no problem actually doing that, in a match. Or that he's never done the hold will help him.

I wouldn't expect Foley to perform a good ankle lock. I just don't see how Kurt Angle can suceed with a move he (or any other wrestler) has used. What, is Mick going to show him how to use it? Because that's really his only chance, other than trial and error.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Well, now that loss to Edge looks even worse for Kurt Angle, who's best win was against, what, Gangrel? Owen Hart.

Losing to Edge is pretty similar to losing to losing to Randy Orton. And I'd rather have lost past my prime (as Foley did) than in my prime (as Angle did)



Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know we could excuse losses, if they were by roll ups. My god, thank you for telling me. Well, here's what I'm about to do.

Mick Foley's losses to the The Rock at Survivor Series and the Royal Rumble no longer count, because Mankind never really submitted.

Sorry, doesn't work that. Losing is losing.



Ah, so we're cherry picking our wins and losses, too? Great, let me get right on that.

- Kurt Angle V. Brock Lesnar- WM 19
- Kurt Angle V. Eddie Guerrero- WM 20
- Kurt V. Randy. Rey- WM 22

(God, that's a lot of WM losses.... Anyway...)

- Mick Foley V. Rock- Raw, December, December 28, 1998 (which was really his greatest moment, and you're dumb if you say otherwise.)
- Mick V. Triple H V. Austin- Summerslam 99
- Mick V. Undertaker- Boiler Room Brawl, Summerslam 96

See what I did there?



Well, gee, I bet Kurt Angle will have no problem actually doing that, in a match. Or that he's never done the hold will help him.

I wouldn't expect Foley to perform a good ankle lock. I just don't see how Kurt Angle can suceed with a move he (or any other wrestler) has used. What, is Mick going to show him how to use it? Because that's really his only chance, other than trial and error.

Fair points but you seem to be forgetting you stated that Kurt Angle "jobbed" to the likes of Jay Lethal and Randy Orton when he didn't. Kurt Angle lost the bouts sure but it wasn't in a one side match nor in a way that hurts Angle's credibility. I was simply pointing out the difference between jobbing and losing.

Kurt Angle like I have stated twice now, he has used other wrestler's finishers against them in the past. Moves he never used before, including the Stunner, Rock Bottom, Styles Clash, Frog Splash, 450 Splash, etc.. he used these finishers against opponents in regular matches, what makes you think he won't know how to use the mandible claw if the stipulation states he is required to apply it?

 

[Thriller Ant]

Well, gee, I bet Kurt Angle will have no problem actually doing that, in a match. Or that he's never done the hold will help him.

I wouldn't expect Foley to perform a good ankle lock. I just don't see how Kurt Angle can suceed with a move he (or any other wrestler) has used. What, is Mick going to show him how to use it? Because that's really his only chance, other than trial and error.

This is a big point. The ankle lock is almost comically easy to use. My little brother and I have used it on each other with little difficulty and can cause quite a bit of pain with not too much effort. Plus, for this specific match, Foley is a pretty big guy to be dragging to the ropes.

The Mandible Claw, on the other hand, is much more complicated than it looks, not to mention the good chance of getting your fingers chomped off. I'm not sure which way I'm voting yet, but for my money, this stipulation actually favors Mick.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Fair points but you seem to be forgetting you stated that Kurt Angle "jobbed" to the likes of Jay Lethal and Randy Orton when he didn't. Kurt Angle lost the bouts sure but it wasn't in a one side match nor in a way that hurts Angle's credibility. I was simply pointing out the difference between jobbing and losing.

This is just untrue. There is no difference between jobbing and losing. To job is to lose, they are one in the same.

I'm going with Foley. Someone earlier said that Angle was one of the greatest ever and that was so nauseating I just discredited every other argument to be made for Angle.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Well, gee, I bet Kurt Angle will have no problem actually doing that, in a match. Or that he's never done the hold will help him.

I wouldn't expect Foley to perform a good ankle lock. I just don't see how Kurt Angle can suceed with a move he (or any other wrestler) has used. What, is Mick going to show him how to use it? Because that's really his only chance, other than trial and error.

This is part of the reason why I think Angle wins this. As far as I'm aware, Angle can't win with the ankle lock, but he can't lose by using it either. Angle very rarely won a match the first time he applied the ankle lock; usually he would apply it many times or fake for it to keep his opponent on their guard or to wear them down.

To go a step further, if for some reason Kurt couldn't figure out how to apply the mandible claw, despite being quite a studious wrestler, I can't not see him taking an approach that would ground Foley - suplexes, submissions etc. - to then give him a better chance to understand how to apply the claw properly.

Kurt takes this for me.

 

[Con T.]

This is part of the reason why I think Angle wins this. As far as I'm aware, Angle can't win with the ankle lock, but he can't lose by using it either. Angle very rarely won a match the first time he applied the ankle lock; usually he would apply it many times or fake for it to keep his opponent on their guard or to wear them down.

Gee, that working the leg and ankle is going to set up perfectly for a hold that attacks the nervous system

To go a step further, if for some reason Kurt couldn't figure out how to apply the mandible claw, despite being quite a studious wrestler, I can't not see him taking an approach that would ground Foley - suplexes, submissions etc. - to then give him a better chance to understand how to apply the claw properly.

Kurt takes this for me.

Two major problems, here.

1. Kurt can be as studious as he likes... Only one person knows how to use that hold effectively.

This isn't the Ankle Lock, where Angle had a predecessor to learn from. Kurt's in the ring, with the guy he has to apply the hold to.

The only one who (kayfabe) knows how to apply the hold.

2. That implies Mick's just going to sit there and let Kurt beat him up. Lulz, no.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Gee, that working the leg and ankle is going to set up perfectly for a hold that attacks the nervous system

Apologies, I should have expanded that point further. Trying to stick your hand in someone's mouth when their leg has been hurt and they are easier to take down to the mat is a much simpler route rather than trying to do the same thing when they are upright.

Two major problems, here.

1. Kurt can be as studious as he likes... Only one person knows how to use that hold effectively.

This isn't the Ankle Lock, where Angle had a predecessor to learn from. Kurt's in the ring, with the guy he has to apply the hold to.

The only one who (kayfabe) knows how to apply the hold.

2. That implies Mick's just going to sit there and let Kurt beat him up. Lulz, no.

Well, as Mick didn't invent the hold then that seems to limit the 'Kurt won't know how to perform it' argument. Like I said, Kurt is a studious character that very rarely seems to have a chaotic try-everything-and-see-what-works approach to matches. If he knows he has to use the claw to beat Foley, he's gonna do his research as I don't see anything in the OP stating that the competitors don't know what kind of match it is before it takes place.

I don't mean to imply that Mick will just let Angle beat him up. What I mean is that Angle's style usually involved wearing powerful guys down and Mick's knees seem to have been a problem for him over the years. Obviously Angle has his neck issues which I'm not completely discounting but I think as Angle usually targets the legs in matches anyway, it is a bigger factor for Mick to be aware of.

 

[Con T.]

Well, as Mick didn't invent the hold then that seems to limit the 'Kurt won't know how to perform it' argument. Like I said, Kurt is a studious character that very rarely seems to have a chaotic try-everything-and-see-what-works approach to matches. If he knows he has to use the claw to beat Foley, he's gonna do his research as I don't see anything in the OP stating that the competitors don't know what kind of match it is before it takes place.

I want you to try something here; I want you attempt the mandible claw, on yourself. Go on. Try. I'll give you ten attempts.

Did you paralyze yourself? Did you go numb?

I'm going to assume no. Because even if you study, there's no guarantee you're going to perform the hold effectively. In fact, in the sport of wrestling, there's only one person that knows how to use this hold effectively.

Also, the Mick didn't invent it argument comes from Mick learning the idea from a movie. What, is Kurt going to watch that movie ten thousand times?

I don't mean to imply that Mick will just let Angle beat him up. What I mean is that Angle's style usually involved wearing powerful guys down and Mick's knees seem to have been a problem for him over the years. Obviously Angle has his neck issues which I'm not completely discounting but I think as Angle usually targets the legs in matches anyway, it is a bigger factor for Mick to be aware of.

But the legs aren't what Angle needs to attack. It's the nervous system. Big difference. Suplexes may help, but really, his best bet is to attack the head and neck.

 

[Loveless]

Advantage Foley/Mankind and I'll tell you exactly why. It's because he's mental and the moment Angle is stupid enough to put his fingers in Micks mouth, he's going to get bitten. This is a bad match for Angle, end of the road.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Also, the Mick didn't invent it argument comes from Mick learning the idea from a movie. What, is Kurt going to watch that movie ten thousand times?



But the legs aren't what Angle needs to attack. It's the nervous system. Big difference. Suplexes may help, but really, his best bet is to attack the head and neck.

Honest question, what movie is this? When I searched for the mandible claw online, I read about Sam Sheppard who used his knowledge from his career as a doctor to create it. If Foley can then figure out how to use it, I just don't see the restriction about Angle, using his Intelligence, figuring out how to do it either.

This isn't like Miz getting his legs muddled up while trying to put on a figure 4, this is a seasoned pro who worked his way up from an amateur wrestling background doing a spot of research about a move that even if he doesn't get 100% right, could still be uncomfortable enough for Foley to be in a spot of bother and submit.

Besides, how much did Foley really concentrate on attacking the nervous system to wear people down for the mandible claw? He always seemed more of a brawler who would do whatever he could to hurt people rather than be overly specific about targeting one thing or another.



The more we discuss this the more I'd actually love to have seen this match go down as the clash of styles as well as some of their similarities could yield some great moments.

 

[Con T.]

Honest question, what movie is this? When I searched for the mandible claw online, I read about Sam Sheppard who used his knowledge from his career as a doctor to create it. If Foley can then figure out how to use it, I just don't see the restriction about Angle, using his Intelligence, figuring out how to do it either.

Because Angle is going to struggle to synch it in. If I were learning Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I wouldn't be able to hook a heel hook, and get it down. And even if I've studied, if it's my first time attempting the hold, I'm going to struggle.

This isn't like Miz getting his legs muddled up while trying to put on a figure 4, this is a seasoned pro who worked his way up from an amateur wrestling background doing a spot of research about a move that even if he doesn't get 100% right, could still be uncomfortable enough for Foley to be in a spot of bother and submit.

Well, that's the other, unspoken issue for the Angle contingency, that we may as well get out in the open.

Mick Foley's endurance to pain. In his prime, Mick Foley never legitimately tapped out. He never lost a match by submission (until he went to TNA, of course. Or once, when the move of submission was one applied by himself, to not tap out.). In fact, the whole premise of the Mankind character is that he never quits.

Now, I know that I'm going to be pointed to the Hogan/Taker tapes of them submitting...

1. Neither were in their prime.

2. Mankind has a higher threshold for pain.

So, Angle's who chances lie on his ability to render Foley unconscious. Good luck with that. I'm not saying it can't happen... It's just incredibly difficult.

Besides, how much did Foley really concentrate on attacking the nervous system to wear people down for the mandible claw? He always seemed more of a brawler who would do whatever he could to hurt people rather than be overly specific about targeting one thing or another.

Two of his set up moves were the piledriver and the double arm DDT, both which wind up impacting the nervous system, much in the way whiplash would.

Angle's suplexes could cause that, but as stated, Angle's going to have to hit a fucking ton of suplexes. Yeah, Mankind focused on the nervous system before applying the hold.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Because Angle is going to struggle to synch it in. If I were learning Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I wouldn't be able to hook a heel hook, and get it down. And even if I've studied, if it's my first time attempting the hold, I'm going to struggle.



Well, that's the other, unspoken issue for the Angle contingency, that we may as well get out in the open.

Mick Foley's endurance to pain. In his prime, Mick Foley never legitimately tapped out. He never lost a match by submission (until he went to TNA, of course. Or once, when the move of submission was one applied by himself, to not tap out.). In fact, the whole premise of the Mankind character is that he never quits.

Now, I know that I'm going to be pointed to the Hogan/Taker tapes of them submitting...

1. Neither were in their prime.

2. Mankind has a higher threshold for pain.

So, Angle's who chances lie on his ability to render Foley unconscious. Good luck with that. I'm not saying it can't happen... It's just incredibly difficult.



Two of his set up moves were the piledriver and the double arm DDT, both which wind up impacting the nervous system, much in the way whiplash would.

Angle's suplexes could cause that, but as stated, Angle's going to have to hit a fucking ton of suplexes. Yeah, Mankind focused on the nervous system before applying the hold.

You can argue that Mick Foley never tapped out until he was no longer in his prime but Kurt Angle was past his prime when he made Mick Foley tap out in TNA, it evens out in that sense. If it were to occur in both their primes who is to say Kurt Angle wouldn't make Foley tap out in similar fashion?

Kurt Angle was known for making a huge transition from amateur to pro wrestling and adapted quite well, eventually becoming one of the top talent in little to no time. Who's to say Kurt Angle wouldn't know how to apply a submission move he has seen been applied to many other wrestlers in the past?

Mick Foley has a threshold for pain? Sure. Kurt Angle wrestled in the main-event of WrestleMania 19 with an injured neck, got surgery, returned in less than 3 months and won the WWE title. Kurt Angle's also been in two Iron-Man matches, won the only Armageddon Hell in a Cell which featured two of the masters of the cell in Triple H and Undertaker and wrestled Steve Austin to the point where Austin had no choice but to get disqualified at SummerSlam 2001. Kurt Angle can endure his fair share of pain.

I don't see a valid argument to vote Foley over Angle, this assumption that Angle won't know how to apply Foley's finisher just doesn't hold up. Kurt Angle's a quick learner and can adapt to situations faster than most wrestlers, as he has shown time and time again throughout his career.

 

[GI Cake]

The rules doesn't say anything about the finisher actually having to be effective in order to win the match, it just has to be used. Sticking your hand into someones mouth is far easier than the Angle Slam. Knowing Kurt he'll just jam his fist into Foley's mouth like a $10 hooker and shout "Mandible Claw!" and ding ding ding, winner Angle.