Val Venis -The Real Story

[Mouthy Idiot]

I am sure this topic has been broached before but most topics have been, numerous times but whatever. Recently I went back through the WWF/WWE career of Val Venis aka Sean Morley. Vals character arrived in may of 1998 and immediately gained attention for the risque' behavior and porn star promos. Now I rewatched all of Val's pay per view matches and relived his entire run. The thing that stands out to me is how good Sean was in the ring. Val was a "gimmick" but man when you watched vals matches he was very good , he always competed very hard, was an aggressive style he worked,. Val had good intensity. His punches always had force he had solid clotheslines. He sold moves very well. Took very efficient solid bumps in the ring. See the Rikishi feud where he took rikishis splash off the top of the cage. I noticed Sean took that bump very good. He didn't even flinch that much or kind of brace much he solidly took the splash from that massive man.

The Val character wasn't given much in terms of promos and mic work. Basically he would grab the mic before his match and cut some short scripted line referencing the ladies and the town he was in. Then WWE would pan to the crowd and show the girls in the crowd smiling. The early part of Vals run like 1998 and 1999 he was given very good storylines where he was "sleeping" with the other wrestlers gf's , wives and sisters. See the kai en tai feud , terri runnels , ryan shamrock, debra, he was really mid card but his time was very entertaining and fit the attitude era well. Then things went bad... In around 2000 , Trish had started managing val and at some point Val or Sean Morley decided to cut his hair. I think that was the end of the Val Venis character that we knew. He switched to white trunks from the purple and black and he basically stopped the porn gimmick. After that change he immediately lost the IC title and weeks later was put in Right To Censor and basically became a heel side character in a mid card heel group.

He still did very well in the ring and always had solid matches but its almost as if cutting his hair pissed off Vince or somebody and they lost interest in him,. In Sean Morleys shoot interview he said he had been wanting to cut his hair for awhile and they finally "allowed" him to. But he was never the same again. Even after Right To Censor was over he was eventually brought back as ' The Big Valbowski" but was tag teaming and jobbing a lot. Then he had the Chief Morley run as Eric Bischoffs right hand man. But he still was never given a major push as a wrestler. Eventually he got fired and they made another attempt to revive him as Val Venis in the porn gimmick again but besides a couple of ppv matches he was in the 9 man battle royal for the IC title which Christian won. He was never really used again in a fun good way,. They never did any good storylines with him with any of the divas or women in the company. He became a jobber. keep in mind he wasn't old and broken down at all either.. Its like they just didn't care about him. I don't know if he wasn't well liked in the back or had some heat on him maybe for political reasons but I am shocked he was never given a major push to main event level.

I believe with his body , look , in ring talent, he could have been a star. Honestly Vals body and looks and voice were very similar to HHH. They had similar looking bodies and long hair and even sounded similar. I just don't get why he wasn't elevated. I do understand the "porn" gimmick made him hard to take seriously as a world champion or face of the company but lots of guys start out with bad gimmicks and they eventually repackage and find their self and become stars. Maybe Sean Morley didn't push his own agenda enough backstage and just did his job and that's why he never reached the main event level. I would hate to think his haircut killed his career. But man im telling you after he cut his hair things went bad. At the end of the day he was a fun character that had some good feuds early on but eventually he was just wasted away and his last run in the company he was a flat out jobber. I remember his final PPV he was bald and his body was looking alittle softer it was just sad watching it. What went wrong? was it the haircut of doom? was it backstage politics? was it lack of agenda? Why did Val never become a star? Whats the real reason. I don't want cookie cutter answers like "oh val was never main event level" or because he was too gimmicky'' I want the truth...

 

[Nate DaMac]

He became a character at the the time that Austin, Rock, Mick, Taker, Kane, and Hunter were on top. He wasn't on their level and he wasn't going to have programs with them. By the time those guys cleared away a bit, there were other guys who were more deserving of a push than him. Guys like The Radicalz and Jericho.

He wasn't as good as you're making him out to be. He was a good hand, but he wasn't a star.

 

[Fryzie86]

He became a character at the the time that Austin, Rock, Mick, Taker, Kane, and Hunter were on top. He wasn't on their level and he wasn't going to have programs with them. By the time those guys cleared away a bit, there were other guys who were more deserving of a push than him. Guys like The Radicalz and Jericho.

He wasn't as good as you're making him out to be. He was a good hand, but he wasn't a star.

Agreed.

You could go back to that period around the late 90s-early 2000s, and make a case for almost half the roster as to why they were never pushed beyond the middle of the card.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

What do we know about Sean Morley other than he was a A level worker... he is VERY outspoken and politically minded, much like Kane is. This isn't fact but it's entirely possible that he rubbed someone like Vince or Linda up the wrong way (and not related to his gimmick) in a discussion or debate early on and that did for him.

Remember a few years back and he was almost a lock to come back? and it all fell through suddenly, add to that the Edge push (who divorced Morley's sister messily) and you have a guy who hasn't really done much wrong, but it's easier not to have around. Guys have been buried for far less, and if you're a Triple H, Edge. you're not gonna be fighting for Morley, cos he is better than you just not getting your chance/spot...

 

[rayrat99]

I believe that his character was staling out and wwe got alot of heat from the fans of his character about not pushing him and its just backstage propaganda he was a great hand in wrestling and could've been a world champion if he was anywhere in his prime but to what Vince wanted was his kind of character and wwe just gave up too early on him they just didn't believe that he was main event material.

 

[Eyebrows]

You said you didn't want cookie cutter answers like 'he was never main event level' but...well, it's true.

Venis was good enough to be in and around the intercontinental scene but that was it. They tried to push him towards the main event. He went over Foley. He had a minifeud with The Rock. Nobody bought him next to those guys and next to guys like Austin and HHH. His main push came towards the end of 1999 as well and it probably didn't help that Angle, Jericho and the Radicalz came in to occupy the upper mid-card/main event slots.

I did enjoy the Right to Censor angle tbh and though he might have been a lackey, he did get a WWF title match during that time.

 

[The Brain]

I actually thought Val was at his best after he cut his hair in 2000. The porn star gimmick was fun during the height of the attitude era in 1998 and 1999 but by 2000 it had gotten old. It was nice to see Val in a more serious role and he still did pretty well for himself in 2000, or at least no worse than 1999. The problem for Val was he was injured in the spring of 2001 just as the WWF was going through a major change. By the time he came back the invasion angle had come and gone and the WWF was getting ready for the brand extension. Val simply got lost in the shuffle with all the new talent around.

 

[Mouthy Idiot]

You said you didn't want cookie cutter answers like 'he was never main event level' but...well, it's true.

Venis was good enough to be in and around the intercontinental scene but that was it. They tried to push him towards the main event. He went over Foley. He had a minifeud with The Rock. Nobody bought him next to those guys and next to guys like Austin and HHH. His main push came towards the end of 1999 as well and it probably didn't help that Angle, Jericho and the Radicalz came in to occupy the upper mid-card/main event slots.

I did enjoy the Right to Censor angle tbh and though he might have been a lackey, he did get a WWF title match during that time.

I hate when ppl say stuff like "nobody bought him next to those guys"... Its really simple ... He wasn't booked to go over on those guys in a believeable way. That's what im saying.. why didn't they book him to be dominant and win.. Val was just as good in the ring as those guys , its not like he was horrible and botching moves and finishes. Something kept him back . All it takes is Vince to sign off on Val going over and beating those guys consistently. Vince apparently never allowed it., I am asking why???

 

[shalliin]

The sad truth is, he just was not quite solid enough to be put any further ahead then what he was. He was a solid upper midcard talent who had some charisma and personality, but not enough to truly match up against the top guys. He could put on a solid in ring performance and showcase his talent along with the top guys but didn't have that extra something to be equal to them. He was far from the only one as there was a large number of guys from that era especially in similar positions that people are now looking back on and questioning why they didn't become stars or why they didn't make it.

The thing is, any one who gets to that level is a star, and has made it. Using a football analogy, the stars like Rock, Austin, Taker, Foley, and later Edge, are the starting Qb, wide receivers, and tight ends that get all the press and attention. Guys like Venis and the upper mid card are like the starting Defensive and Offensive line. Sure you know their names, but don't think about how important they are to the success of the team until one of them is out of position or traded away and suddenly there's a gap that shows a weakness in the roster as the 2nd and 3rd stringers struggle to fill the hole.
Venis was among the best of his crowd, but his crowd was always the supporting crew, not the starters.
As for the rest, there likely were some backstage issues between he and Edge for the way Edge treated Morley's sister. And if that was the case, then wwe probably had to make a choice and they chose to support Edge, and honestly, would any of us have wanted it the other way around? What surprised me about the whole situation is the issues between Edge and Matt Hardy were all over the place, but as far as I can recall, there was little said about or by Morley regarding the situation.

 

[Charismatic Enigma]

There are so many guys from that time period that had breakout potential that for whatever reason never ascended past the midcard. Honestly, it just is what it is. In 1999 especially, the WWE roster was so stacked I could've taken 75% of the guys there and made a case for why they could be believable title contenders. Guys like Owen Hart, Shamrock, Godfather, Bossman, etc.

There is absolutely no denying that Val was a hell of a talent, I even consider him one of the standouts of the era, but I guess it just wasn't meant to be at the time. In the years that followed, he was one of a few talents that managed to stay with the company like JBL, Henry, Billy Gunn, and Bob Holly, and as history proved some of them were rewarded for their longevity while others weren't, really no telling what went on behind the scenes other than to say someone inevitably has to draw the short end of the stick, and unfortunately for Sean Moorley it was him.

 

[Rhodes2TheFuture3313]

Bob Holly was a lower-card singles/tag-team guy. Bossman was a solid mid-carder who could have been an upper mid-carder instead of getting saddled w/B2 ha ha. Billy Gunn is/was great in the ring, but they never gave the Mr. Ass character the right push. Listening to him talk now he seems savy enough to be a main event talent. Wrong place. Wrong time for the A$$ Man. JBL is a legendary character thanks mostly to his natural charisma and ability to talk, but mostly because Eddie Guerrero really helped get him over. Mark Henry for one reason or another just never got a shot until many of the big names were out or on the way out. The WSM gimmick and his reign as WHC w/the Hall of Pain is my fav among recent title runs and best w/the WHC in a long time that's for sure. Val Venis imo was a mid-card talent. He won a few IC titles I believe. Putting him into the Right to Censor along w/the haircut kind of killed his character. When he went back to Val he was pretty much a glorified jobber.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I hate when ppl say stuff like "nobody bought him next to those guys"... Its really simple ... He wasn't booked to go over on those guys in a believeable way. That's what im saying.. why didn't they book him to be dominant and win..

Because he wasn't good enough. Look at the guys were eventually booked to be on the same level as Triple H, Austin, and Rock; Benoit, Jericho, Angle, etc. They all were in the same place that Val was in at one time. The difference is that they got better. Val Venis in 1998 and Val Venis in 2000 is the same guy. No growth, no stronger connection with the crowd. He was a gimmick.

Val was just as good in the ring as those guys , its not like he was horrible and botching moves and finishes.

He was not as good as those guys, nowhere fucking close. There's a lot more to wrestling then executing wrestling moves.

Something kept him back . All it takes is Vince to sign off on Val going over and beating those guys consistently. Vince apparently never allowed it., I am asking why???

You've gotten your answer, you just don't accept it because you have a limited mental capacity.

He was NOT good enough.

 

[LynchCats]

Val Venis was a good hand, nothing more. He wasn't as over as The Rock, Steve Austin, or DX were, so he really should not have been booked to beat those guys. He was at the top of the mid-card, which really isn't a bad spot to be in, because it put him on pretty much every pay per view in the era. He did have some of the more memorable feuds (Kai-en-tai a prime example), but he wasn't quite at the level of Austin, Rocky, et al. There's nothing wrong with being at the top of the mid-card.

 

[Fryzie86]

I hate when ppl say stuff like "nobody bought him next to those guys"... Its really simple ... He wasn't booked to go over on those guys in a believeable way. That's what im saying.. why didn't they book him to be dominant and win.. Val was just as good in the ring as those guys , its not like he was horrible and botching moves and finishes. Something kept him back . All it takes is Vince to sign off on Val going over and beating those guys consistently. Vince apparently never allowed it., I am asking why???

Clearly Vince didn't see money in Sean Morley. Vince made the call to push The Rock, Austin, Triple H, Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Guererro etc instead, and therefore Morley got lost in the shuffle. As history has it, I'd say Vince made the right call.

I don't know what other answers anyone here can give you that we already havent.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

It's easy to look back on the guy that didn't make it... and say that they didn't make it because they weren't good enough. A lot of the time, it's even true, but not always... especially in a business as political as wrestling is (George Gulas says "daddy says lie down"... hopefully someone gets that reference)

Morley was a good hand. He could work a good match, and as you saw with his initial Val Venis gimmick, could connect with the audience. I don't know that he was ever good enough to work beyond the mid card, because we never got a chance to see him in that role... but he was someone who's work I always enjoyed, and it always pissed me off in later years when he was turned into a JTTS.

The closest I think we ever saw him in any type of prominent role was as Chief Morley, and I personally thought that was his best work. If they'd run with that, instead of dropping it, I think he would have done very well for himself and the company.

I do think one of the main reasons he never really got that shot was his personality backstage though. Morley is a very outspoken Libertarian, and he's not afraid to speak his mind on pretty much anything. Guys like that can rub people the wrong way and I wouldn't doubt that Morley did exactly that to a few people in key positions in the WWE over the years. Plus he doesn't really seem the type to play the kiss ass politics that are sometimes necessary to advance in a company like the WWE.

I really think it just boiled down to the fact that while he probably was good enough to use at the top of the card, there were other guys just as qualified that were easier for the brass to work with, so Morley just never got his shot.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

His most memorable role for me (besides choppy choppy) was when he called out Stone Cold Steve Austin on SD. How he said he was the hottest rising star and wanted to go against the biggest star there is. The pop for that bit was amazing.


Val Venis had a good enough look, ye his pornstar gimmick was just running out. Maybe a repackaging into something more suitable would've been nice.


No not Mr. Ass godamit!

 

[Makaveli31]

I remember watching a shoot with Sean Morley once and he said when Vince Russo went to WCW his character lost all momentum. "Val Venis" was a Vince Russo creation and Russo took care of the "Val Venis" character...putting him front and center on RAW's, putting him in meaningful feuds and storylines, pairing him with beautiful valets. Once Russo went to WCW no one really knew what to do with the "Val Venis" character.

Morley stated that when he went to RTC it totally killed off the Val Venis character. It's hard to repackage someone when their first "gimmick" was so successful and controversial then they lose that momentum for whatever reason...no matter how talented they are in the ring.

 

[Wald]

I actually thought there was a decent run to be had when he simply became Sean Morley and was teamed up with Bischoff as his assistant

Not sure why that got nixed before it took off but I enjoyed it at the time

 

[Makaveli31]

All these conspiracy theories about Morley's politics playing a part in his booking is making me laugh out loud!! The only "politics" Vince McMahon speaks is $$$$. If Morley could draw he would've had his shot...no doubt about it.

 

[Eyebrows]

I hate when ppl say stuff like "nobody bought him next to those guys"... Its really simple ... He wasn't booked to go over on those guys in a believeable way.

Val Venis pinned Mankind clean on PPV. That's a pretty big endorsement, going over somebody that had won the WWF title twice that year. If I remember, the crowd was pretty flat for Val winning though to be fair it might have been due to the finish of the match.

why didn't they book him to be dominant and win.. Val was just as good in the ring as those guys , its not like he was horrible and botching moves and finishes.

He wasn't as good as them in the ring. He lacked that certain je ne sais quoi that the best guys have. Are there really any particularly memorable Val Venis matches? The only one that immediately comes to mind is his cage match against Rikishi and that's only because of Rikishi's dive off the top of the cage.

As ShieldGirl said, it takes a lot more than executing moves to put on a great wrestling match. Sure, it takes skill to execute moves properly but I've never marked out after a match because of how 'botchless' it was.

All it takes is Vince to sign off on Val going over and beating those guys consistently. Vince apparently never allowed it., I am asking why???

Vince could sign off on anyone going over and beating his top stars but that doesn't mean that he should. Venis seems like such an arbitrary name to choose to moan about his lack of push, like you put all the late '90s mid-carders into a hat and Venis was the one you drew. He was no more equipped for the main event than D'Lo Brown, Hardcore Holly or Test were. When The Rock and Sock is one of your hottest acts and when HHH/Austin is your hottest feud, do you really want a guy to come up from the mid-card and start beating Foley, Rock and Austin?

Just being in the mix with those guys should be enough to get you over if you're not squashed and Val wasn't squashed in those matches by any means. He got a win over PPV on Mankind and had a couple of Raw/Smackdown main events against Austin and against Rock & Sock. That should be enough to test whether or not the crowd are going to be invested in you as a main event star. Maybe it would've been better if he'd gone in as a face but I doubt it.

It seems that you advocate a booking philosophy where a mid-card guy suddenly begins dominating and going over all your top stars in order to build legitimacy as a main eventer, which tends not to work unless the guy in question is booked as a monster or is JBL. Other mid-carders from around the same time, Edge, Christian, Hardy, Guerrero, Jericho, Angle, etc. were eventually pushed to the main event because the fans wanted to see them, rather than the fans wanting to see them because they were pushed to the main event.

It's not my intention to deride Val Venis or diminish his accomplishments. The guy played his role well, was a decent hand in matches and was a regular face during one of the companies hottest times, but he didn't draw. Hence, he didn't go over the guys who did.

 

[James]

He, Goldy, and Ken were my favourite in that era other than Rock, HBK, and The Undertaker. I always thought he and Goldy had an amazing feud; I hoped that one would get the main title.

The one crazy thing about this is the fact that Val, Christian, and Edge came in at the same time; Vince gave them choices with one being the porn star. Well Val picked the Porn star and looked what happened. Edge said he was glad that he dodged the bullet.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

With respect to his hair, I'm pretty sure the reason he cut it was because he was starting to lose it in the front. If you look back at Val when he had the long hair check out the front. You will notice it thinning out in the front and receding as well. It happens all the time and the list of wrestlers who have had to cut their hair because they started losing it is surely a long one.

Triple H is one of the few guys i can think of who never lost his hair even entering his 40's. Of course he cut it anyway, but that has more to do with now being apart of the corporate team.

 

[Mustang Sally]

The porn star gimmick was fun during the height of the attitude era in 1998 and 1999 but by 2000 it had gotten old.

Yes, and it illustrates why a gimmick that comes off as wildly different can be a great thing at the outset.....but often becomes a millstone around the performer's neck after time. With everything that's been thought of and done in professional wrestling in the last century, it's damn hard to come up with something new. But when something daring and original arrives, the clock has already started toward the gimmick's end.

From there, the performer has to morph into something else and, given the originality of his initial gimmick, the "something else" is bound to be less compelling than what made him famous. That's show business. (Example: after the "Fandango" program finally reaches it's end, what is Johnny Curtis going to do to keep folks interested in him?)

Sean Morley was well built and had a good ring repertoire, but so do many, many other wrestlers. After his "Hello, ladies" bit (which did nothing for me, unlike some of the women picked out by the camera), casting Sean as the general manager of a brand simply made me wonder how he managed to change from a sex symbol to an administrator.

In some ways, Sean Morley was a victim of the success of his initial program. Still, it's better to experience success and have it fade, than to never have known success at all.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

I just think he never evolved. I'm not sure if that's on him or the company or both. But he never turned from Hunter Hearst Helmsley into Triple H. He never turned from Rocky Miavia to The Rock. Or Stunning Steve Austin or The Ringmaster into Stone Cold Steve Austin.

A lot of guys are given cartoon gimmicks when they debut. But those that can evolve and turn that into a main event character are the ones who make it. The best example is probably to look at Triple H. He had one of the worst gimmicks of all time. And he was jobbed out hard after the MSG incident. Yet he still managed to evolve and change over time. Nothing immediately drastic. But from 1997 to 1998 he was a completely different character. And again from 1998 to 1999. Turning from rich snob to the D-X leader to "The Game". It was gradual and organic.

Val never did this. I don't know if we can put this all on him. Maybe he didn't push his own agenda enough. Maybe he pissed someone off backstage who knows. He had all of the tools. But he was given a "mid-card" gimmick and could never get out of it.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

It's funny that only a couple weeks ago Val did an IAmA question and answer on Reddit and said he was more than happy with what he achieved in WWE and was just happy he managed to get over his addictions to drugs and alcohol. He seems like a cool dude and was a pretty entertaining character at times but he was nowhere near The Rock, Austin, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Kane, Taker or a slew of other names levels. He was a lower midcard guy whose most serious work came out through Right to Censor and even that wasn't all that serious.