The Boss is old news

[hardmick33]

I think it's about time that we all ask ourselves a question. Does Vince deserve his praise? Let's discuss his "discoveries".

Hulk Hogan, despite his last decade of all out embarassment, is the name that EVERYONE knows. Wrestling to mainstream has never reached the level that it did with him and his 24 inch pythons. Was that Vince or was that just him seeing a wave of fandom and accepting it?

Stone Cold Steve Austin, to me, is the greatest performer to ever step foot in the squared circle. Even in his prime, Hogan never made wrestling "cool". Watch the SC Bottom Line documentary. Vince didn't even see his ECW promos. He knew people liked someone and signed him. He gave Stone Cold a mouthpiece. The greatest talker in wrestling history, if not top 5, with a mouthpiece.

John Cena, love him or hate him, is the man. He is a workhorse and a half and haters realy need to look at themselves and realize that they know nothing of the wrestling buisness let alone the effort and passion that he brings to all aspects of his job. Who got that? Stephanie.

Vinnie Mac has been a great asset to the world of professional wrestling, if not THE driving force behind its success. I can honestly say that I would put him on a list of top 10 people in the world that I'd love to sit and have a beer with. Right now though, that talk would be a whole lot of "What tha f#$% were you thinking?"

I'm not a IWC WWE hater, I'm not. The entertainment that WWE has brought to my life over the last 25 years has been ridiculous. My question is... is it time to say Vince has lost it? Worse yet, is it time to say he never really had it? Maybe at this point my question is trivial. The people that I see on my TV screen that truly make me enjoy wrestling are the people that are succeeding despite Vince's outright attempts to hold them back. Punk and Bryan are both laughably successful despite the opinion of "The Boss.'"
A few weeks ago, Vince came to RAW and had his Punk confrontation. We made that happen. Not "we" the IWC, "we" the wrestling fan. I will never aim to be one of the "fans" that hate on everything that happens , but at this point I feel someone needs to say to the man that it's time to go.

My point, and I'm pretty sure I lost track here, is do we need to stop? There are things I love today, but when they happen all I can think is it's only a matter of time before he ruins those things. Sandow will be fed to Cena, Ryback will lose to Lesnar who loses to HHH. Barrett? The man doesn't stand a chance.

I'm done with my rant, whatcha got?

 

[Fansince1992]

Vince gets my Praise.

We have had 28 years of Wrestlemania's, with the last one being the best selling PPV of all time. I think Vince has a lot to do with this success.

I also have to respect Vince for stepping in the ring when really he never needed to (being a Millionaire / Billionaire whichever he is made no difference)
You could say he had a major part in Steve Austin's success.

Mr McMahon (The Boss) vs Stone Cold Steve Austin (The Company Rebel) was one of the biggest grudges/fueds ever in my opinion. Austin obviously did a lot to his own success aswell. Austin even came up with the name "Stone Cold" when his first WWE name "The Ringmaster" didn't work.

You can see Vince has passion for the company, he is still stepping in the ring to this day (the more recent match on Raw vs CM Punk was fantastic)

The 3 Wrestlers you mentioned - Hogan, Austin and Cena have definatly been successful because of Vince, but the 3 have obviously had natrual talent to entertain Wrestling fans of all ages for decades.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Vince gets praise and scorn, often in equal measure. Bottom line is there is no wrestling business without him, the territory system would have died off by now had he not set the ball rolling with expansion. He took a regional, minority "sport" and made it a global fixture on TV and in the minds of the public for nearly 30 years...

His record on "discovering talent" is sketchy. Hogan had mainstream success through Rocky, indeed Vince Sr. fired Hogan for being in the movie (if you believe Hogan's book), Austin and Foley had had success in WCW and had honed the characters that got them over in ECW. Vince still made them "The Ringmaster" and "Mankind" respectively, when he realised those gimmicks weren't gonna fly, only then did he let them "cut loose". Some have thrived on Vince's "opportunities" like Rock and Cena, others have gotten to the top on ability like Shawn, Bret, Benoit and Eddie but for us in 30 years to only really have Hogan, Austin, Cena and Rock as "Mega-Icons" that trancend the WWF is a pretty poor return.

He gets praise from me for following his model - Newsflash, the WWF was ALWAYS for kids... the Attitude era was a blip, a desperation movie to save his business, not the way things were ever going to be long term. That many fans want it back is fine, but it's not what Vince does. It never was. It's why guys like Russo were there. Now could Vince do both? Yes, I think there is a market for a mature hour of RAW each week or a seperate PG 14 show or company. But ultimately, Vince started out with Cartoons, IceCream Bars and Wrestling Buddies... just cos we grew up doesn't change what the guy is good at selling.

He gets scorn however for his controlling personality. At some point, he has to let it go, him dying at the arena is not going to be "good for business" in fact, it'll damage it beyond repair. If he is not ready to step aside completely then he needs to at the very least remove himself from the creative process and focus on ensuring the corporate side of the business is ready for when he isn't there. The ratings show that Vince does not have his finger on the pulse of what viewers want, never mind paying, older fans. His insistance on white elephants like the XFL have been misguided, but the network COULD be disastrous. Focus would be better spent on improving the wrestling product as a whole, again a new company would be a step forward, self-sustaining but "under the umbrella". As it stands if ratings continue to decline, there could be a network but that becomes the only place to see WWE as no-one else will carry it.

 

[JaylisJayP]

Vince gets praise and scorn, often in equal measure. Bottom line is there is no wrestling business without him, the territory system would have died off by now had he not set the ball rolling with expansion. He took a regional, minority "sport" and made it a global fixture on TV and in the minds of the public for nearly 30 years...

His record on "discovering talent" is sketchy. Hogan had mainstream success through Rocky, indeed Vince Sr. fired Hogan for being in the movie (if you believe Hogan's book), Austin and Foley had had success in WCW and had honed the characters that got them over in ECW. Vince still made them "The Ringmaster" and "Mankind" respectively, when he realised those gimmicks weren't gonna fly, only then did he let them "cut loose". Some have thrived on Vince's "opportunities" like Rock and Cena, others have gotten to the top on ability like Shawn, Bret, Benoit and Eddie but for us in 30 years to only really have Hogan, Austin, Cena and Rock as "Mega-Icons" that trancend the WWF is a pretty poor return.

He gets praise from me for following his model - Newsflash, the WWF was ALWAYS for kids... the Attitude era was a blip, a desperation movie to save his business, not the way things were ever going to be long term. That many fans want it back is fine, but it's not what Vince does. It never was. It's why guys like Russo were there. Now could Vince do both? Yes, I think there is a market for a mature hour of RAW each week or a seperate PG 14 show or company. But ultimately, Vince started out with Cartoons, IceCream Bars and Wrestling Buddies... just cos we grew up doesn't change what the guy is good at selling.

He gets scorn however for his controlling personality. At some point, he has to let it go, him dying at the arena is not going to be "good for business" in fact, it'll damage it beyond repair. If he is not ready to step aside completely then he needs to at the very least remove himself from the creative process and focus on ensuring the corporate side of the business is ready for when he isn't there. The ratings show that Vince does not have his finger on the pulse of what viewers want, never mind paying, older fans. His insistance on white elephants like the XFL have been misguided, but the network COULD be disastrous. Focus would be better spent on improving the wrestling product as a whole, again a new company would be a step forward, self-sustaining but "under the umbrella". As it stands if ratings continue to decline, there could be a network but that becomes the only place to see WWE as no-one else will carry it.

You "think" there's a market for adult WWE programming? What gave it away, the 7 ratings those shows used to get, the much higher PPV buy-rates or the general fact that it was much more exciting, interesting and unpredictable?

On topic, what Vince should've done was - to take a page from JBL's book - realize that he was a wrestling god.

Seriously, and by a wrestling god I mean understand how great he was for creating the golden age of the wrestling business and then just left it alone to free will...and by free will I mean someone else. The horrible decisions, ego and twisted way of treating his fans all far outweight the 4 or 5 superstars he's "discovered" along the way.

Also, for the record, I personally think Mankind was Foley's best character.

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

Honestly, the only person that was WWE homegrown was John Cena. I understand he came around during a time when the territories were long, long gone and there was no "real" ECW or WCW. So with that said, the only one that WWE created from scratch was actually John Cena.

Hogan was formed in the AWA, and nobody should or can deny that. Sure, Verne Gagne didn't know what he had in Hulk Hogan was honestly, did anybody? Hogan toiled in the WWWF under Vince's dad and we all know how his dad released him after he went & did Thunderlips in Rocky III but really, Vince didn't "make" Hulk Hogan, he just gave Hogan the push that both Verne and his father refused to give him.

Austin was good in WCW but when he went to ECW you could see Stone Cold in the making. Whomever decided to give him that terrible Ring Master gimmick should be shot or fired (and I doubt they're still employed) but it didn't fit whatsoever. In the end, Austin was great because, just like Hogan, Vince gave him that push he needed.

As far as what McMahon created, I think it goes beyond the stars he supposedly made and gets into a situation where he created "things" that others either didn't know how to or had the vision to create. Sure, he borrowed a lot of ideas from others (i.e. Supercards which turned into PPVs and match ideas), but more than anything else, Vince created enjoyment for fans. McMahon had some of the dumbest wrestling gimmicks more times than not, but beyond that, he had some amazing things come around as well. He's gotten stale and bland and maybe it's age, maybe it's he can't duplicate things anymore and he's run out of fresh ideas (i.e, Ryback's push). Hopefully he'll be out pretty soon so we can see something different. He reminds me of that old wrestler (i.e, Hogan) who just won't give up even though his time is done.

 

[#MrScissorsKick]

No question Vince deserves praise from not only myself, but from WWE fans world wide. He has taken the WWF/E from a territorial promotion to a world wide company for sports entertainment. He's done alot for the WWE and has stuck throughout the good times, and the bad times. Vince has turned Wrestlemania into a global phenomenon. He is good at what he does. Yes, the WWE isn't what it used to be. Yes, the talent line is thinner than I can ever remember. But Vince still goes out and works his butt off to produce the best possible product the WWE can come up with. He has been in charge of the WWE since 1982 - well before I was even born so I can't really say he's been good or bad throughout the entire years. If you don't think Vince is doing well or what not, go watch TNA or ROH or whatever. I do consider myself a general wrestling fan, and yes I do watch as much wrestling as I possibly can and yes, Vince makes his product much better overall as the other companies. We can complain all we want; 3 hours of Raw is too long, John Cena can't wrestle, SmackDown is a joke, Too many PPV's, No Talent, No Main Eventers, blah blah blah. But the point of this is Vince deserves praise and props to doing this as long as he has and continues to do so.

 

[GameOver]

You "think" there's a market for adult WWE programming? What gave it away, the 7 ratings those shows used to get, the much higher PPV buy-rates or the general fact that it was much more exciting, interesting and unpredictable?

On topic, what Vince should've done was - to take a page from JBL's book - realize that he was a wrestling god.

Seriously, and by a wrestling god I mean understand how great he was for creating the golden age of the wrestling business and then just left it alone to free will...and by free will I mean someone else. The horrible decisions, ego and twisted way of treating his fans all far outweight the 4 or 5 superstars he's "discovered" along the way.

Also, for the record, I personally think Mankind was Foley's best character.

they didn't use to draw a 7 on average, there were some shows that went above the 5's but the average was only 2 points higher then now, the highest they ever drew was the Owen Hart tribute show and a 9.9 in 1999

people had money then, Wrestling was the bomb and nothing better on TV, now it's about reality crap and people spend more time on social media and on the internet then watching tv. ratings don't take into account watching online

you also forgot to mention along with those "high ratings" wrestlers were constantly injured, dying or being crippled at the least on a regular basis, the company was losing money left right and center to pay for all that extra content they had to dish out not to mention the roster cost for having so many people that were all doing something and then people still stopped tuning in and they were left with the future.

I agree though that since then Vince has lost the plot and is not intouch with reality it seems atleast to us as viewers, but from a business standpoint WWE is making a profit, is on the stockmarket which reduces costs to the company and continuously sells out PPV's something the other companies have no chance of ever doing WCW couldn't even do it, the only reason they were so successfull imo for those 2 years was Hogan turning heel, Goldberg and Turner pumped endless funds into it if it wasn't for that there never would've been a Monday night Wars.

Just cause fewer people watch the shows live means jack shit, at the end of the day it's about PPV buys and ticket sales at the gate.

 

[lowandmighty]

I actually don't think Vince has lost it just yet but on the point of his mental sanity I don't believe he ever really had both oars in the water anyway.

I disagree with the point made about wrestling not making a connection with the mainstream as much as it did back in the "Hulk Hogan golden age".
There's way more depth to wrestling now and way more connections to mainstream entertainment too. There's the rock and although he's not as involved in wrestling as Hogan was he's a better actor and has been in more successful films. There's way more wrestling on tv now than there was then too and wrestling has become far bigger than a company with the majority of its fan base following one guy. These days they could fire both Cm punk and Sheamus and get away with it. If they fired Hogan in the 80's it would have been a long way back to the top.
There's more merchandise, video games and household names in wrestling now than there ever has been.

Vince is a crazy and selfish old man though. Take a look at his old friend Hulk Hogan who busted his ass week in week out till he was a cripple so Vince Mcmahon can be a big shot with the biggest wrestling company ever. So where's vince to help him out? no where. Where's Shane Mcmahon who should be continuing tradition and taking over the company?
He's gone to work for someone else because his father can't see out of his own ideas anymore and its alienated poor shane out of his passion for wrestling.

I think Vince's grip on wrestling is still strong, but his grip on reality is slipping a little too far.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Anyone who doesn't believe Vince deserves praise is a complete fool. I'm not saying that Vince is someone you have to like. I'm not saying that Vince doesn't make mistakes at times just like every other human being does. But let's face it, there's a very good chance that pro wrestling would be practically dead as a significant form of entertainment in the United States without him. There would still be pro wrestling but it wouldn't have remotely the presence it's enjoyed for the past 30+ years.

The thing about internet fans, and I've said this many times, is that all we have to do is sit and flap our mouths, or wiggler our fingers on a keyboard as the case may be. Sometimes, and rightly so, Vince's choices are criticized. There's no pleasing everybody and, as I said, sometimes the man just makes the wrong decisions.

At the same time, however, just because Vince does something different than what we think should happen doesn't mean it's wrong. The biggest drawback to being an armchair booker is that, sometimes, we start to believe the hype of ourselves that we've built in our own minds. There are some on these forums that've convinced themselves that they would do a better job despite having no actual experience working in pro wrestling whatsoever.

Most of the time, net fans will say that they should've done this or they should've done that based almost entirely because it's just what they wanted to see happen. Whether or not what they want actually makes sense doesn't seem to figure into the equation. They want what they want regardless of whether it's a decision that ultimately leads to money. WWE isn't a fantasy league in which the powers that be, including Vince, randomly decide what goes down & who is involved with no consequences. WWE is a business and the goal of every business is to be successful & make money. Vince is the CEO of a company that, last I heard, had in excess of 700 employees and makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. The decisions that he makes can ultimately affect the future of those employees and the financial situation of the company. Sometimes he does the right thing, sometimes he doesn't. Doing what's best sometimes doesn't happen, just like with every other company, because it's not an exact science. Vince isn't psychic and can't make the right calls all the time. Sometimes, you just have to go with what you think is ultimately going to work out and hope for the best.

Tonight's HIAC match between CM Punk & Ryback will almost certainly be an example of armchair bookers coming out of nowhere criticizing whatever choice WWE makes.

 

[Mustang Sally]

My question is... is it time to say Vince has lost it? Worse yet, is it time to say he never really had it?

Yes, he has it....and what he has isn't something one can lose. The problem is more that he's been doing it for so long that his ideas have lost freshness, as would happen to almost anyone who was so involved for such a long time. From many accounts, it seems he's taken to micro-managing everything that goes on under his realm, which is probably the exact opposite approach he should be taking. Also heard is the notion he overrules everyone at the drop of a hat, cancelling carefully developed programs and forcing last minute changes that gum up the works and send everyone scrambling to get the product on the air in time. We don't see any of this.....we just see the show as the cameras present it to us. Only heaven knows what fights, disagreements and upsets immediately precede showtime.

Also, Vince's huge ego sometimes gets in the way of his business sense. He's been okay as long as he sticks to what he knows, but his belief in himself as a visionary has led him into mistakes like the World Bodybuilding Federation and the XFL. Just because someone is #1 in one field doesn't mean he'll be so in everything he tries.

Is it time for the Family Levesque to take over WWE? Probably, but don't simply dismiss the boss. Vince McMahon is the greatest promoter since P.T. Barnum and if it weren't for him, I don't know that big time pro wrestling would exist today. Sure, we'd still see shows presented in State Armories and high school gyms. but if you think the longest episodic show in TV history would be pro wrestling, you'd be wrong.

Yes, I believe Vince should transition himself out of the top spot, but know this: while it's very hard for us to envision things we've always known to be true happening in another fashion, I try to imagine what wrestling would be like had Vince McMahon never existed......and it's too hard to fathom. Don't underestimate his influence on an entire form of entertainment.

 

[Jdulemba1001]

Im not sure if you mean Vince, or the Mr Mcmahon character. If you mean the character, yeah, its time. In an era of GMs, the chairman isnt needed. Either drop the character, or the GM angle. If you actually mean Vince needs to go, i disagree, its his company, and he needs to stay to make sure his vision is met, even if sometimes his vision is hard to understand.