The Best Wrestler To Come From Chicago

[Tenta]

Now, admittedly, this was meant to be a thread between myself and the great CH David. This is going to be one of those mano y mano things, though anyone is welcome to join, should they choose. Many wrestlers have been billed from Chicago, either kayfabe or otherwise. This question seeks to answer one simple question.... Who is the best?

Now then, David, I want you to know something right now... I never intended to use what you're about to see come up as part of my post. I chose Chicago because I felt this was going to give us the absolute best debate, seeing as how you're from Chicago. I chose Lex Luger, because I feel that he is, legitimately, the best wrestler to be billed from Chicago. Now then, I promise you, I never intended to use this.... However, a long, long time ago, The Lariat built a post in which he asked us to consider a Hall of Fame Worthy Wrestler, and build their case for the Hall of Fame.

Naturally, I chose Lex Luger. And since the evidence is here, I do, in fact, intend on using it:

Ladies and Gentleman, The Hall of Fame Candidacy of Lex Luger

A former athlete of the gridiron, Larry Pfohl came into the wrestling business with a chiseled physique and a massive amount of training from Hiro Matsuda. One of the toughest trainers in the entire world, Hiro is credited with training such great names as Hulk Hogan, Paul Orndorff, and The Great Muta. He was given the ring name "Lex Luger", and from there, a career that would turn to become one of the most eventful in history had begun.

Luger started in humble beginnings, wrestling in the NWA's Florida territory. He quickly became a dominant force, wrestling the best the territory had to offer. Within a month of his debut in the territory, Luger had won the NWA Southern Heavyweight championship from the legendary Wahoo McDaniel. It was at this point that he had his first clash with another legend in the business, WWE Hall of Famer Ric Flair. Their battle resulted in a sixty minute time limit draw, but Luger had earned the approval of the masses, and was set to begin a career of bigger and better achievements.

Luger quickly moved to Jim Crockett's World Championship Wrestling, which at the time was still under the NWA banner. He quickly became associated with the greatest stable in the history of professional wrestling, The Four Horseman. From here, he ignited a feud with one WCW's greatest stars, Nikita Koloff, over the NWA Unites States heavyweight title. He soon defeated Koloff for the U.S. title, and would go to become one of the most dominant title holders in the belt's history. He would finally lose the title at November's Starrcade, but it wasn't without controversy. J.J. Dillon, manager to the Four Horsemen, had thrown a chair into the ring, which backfired in a way that would cost Luger the match and the title. This planted the seeds for Lex's exodus from the Horsemen, and becoming one of the absolute biggest babyfaces the company had.

Slowly, WCW groomed Lex to be the one to dethrone Ric Flair as the NWA heavyweight champion. He and newly turned face Barry Windham defeated Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard for the NWA Tag Team Titles. Unfortunately, the joy was short lived. Barry turned on his new found partner, choosing instead to antagonize Lex with the help of the Horsemen. Even then, during the Jim Crockett Sr. Memorial Cup, Luger was soon teamed with a young upstart by the name of Sting. He and Lex were part of a tag team tournament for the now vacant tag team titles, ultimately defeating Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard.

From here, he went on to challenge Ric Flair for the NWA Heavyweight title, finally getting his chance against Ric at the Clash of the Champions in Baltimore, Maryland. Though he was attacked by the Four Horsemen before the match, being left bloodied in the parking lot, Luger courageously fought Ric Flair for the NWA Heavyweight Title, in match that ended in controversial fashion. The match was stopped by the referee as Luger had Ric Flair in the torture rack, citing "Maryland State Athletic Commission" rules about a cut that had opened up on Luger's forehead, "bleeding excessively". Dejected, lex did not walk out of Baltimore the champion. He did, however, earn the respect of the fans, and was seen as a major player in the future of WCW.

Soon, he defeated Barry Windham again, and reclaimed his second NWA US Title. He then went on to feud with some of the greatest names in ever in pro wrestling, including WWE Hall of Famers Michael "P.S." Hayes and Ricky The Dragon Steamboat, as well as a blossoming name you might have heard of, Flyin' Brian Pillman. Along the way, he went on to win the US title again, this time winning it against Hayes. He held the title for a record breaking 523 days. For 523 days, Luger defended the title, going on to become the single greatest United States Champion in history. But that simply wasn't enough for Lex, as he decided to move on to bigger and better things.

Lex Luger quickly became the number one contender yet again, this time beating The Great Muta to earn a title shot with Ric Flair. The match was set to take place at the 1991 Great American Bash. The match was to take place in a steel cage, with the stipulation being that if Flair lost by disqualification, as had been the case most times with Luger, Luger would win the title. Unfortunately, Flair left the WCW for the WWF, and so the main event was almost discarded. Barry Windham stepped in for Flair, leading to Lex and Barry meeting again, this time for the WCW Title. During the match, Lex turned heel in a shocking manner, piledriving Barry Windham during the match, which was at the time an illegal move, and finally winning the WCW Heavyweight Title.

Lex got over quickly as a top heel, defeating many an opponent that stepped up to challenge him. He stayed champion for 230 days, defeating any challenger that came his way, until he clashed with his one time friend, Sting, at Superbrawl. The two put on a classic battle, that will live as one of the best of the promotion WCW. Eventually, Sting defeated Luger, as Luger turned in a great performance in the loss. After having conflicts with those booking WCW, Lex left the WCW, and decided to take his tools to the World Wrestling Federation.

It was here that was shown again as a man with a massive physique, taking part in Vince McMahon's World Body Building Federation. a man of massive size and "the look", as well as the pedigree of being a former world champion, Vince would find a way to mold his new gem.

Unfortunately, Luger would soon be involved in a motorcycle accident, an accident that almost cost him his career. Lex would rehab, and against doctor's orders, he made an attempt to return to the ring, with a steel plate in his forearm. This dreaded steel forearm would become a new weapon for Lex to use in the ring, and added another dimension to his attack. This weapon became very useful to Luger, aiding him to several a win, including one against a WWE Legend, The Late Great "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig.

By the time Lex had returned, The WWE was in dire need of a hero. Yokozuna had begun a rampage, attacking all of the WWF's top faces, and again leaving a trail of broken bodies in his pathway. On July Fourth, on the S.S. Intrepid, Yokozuna and his manager, Mr. Fuji, offered an open invitation to anyone that felt they could slam the nearly six hundred pound monster. Many athletes from the NFL and WWF all tried, but all failed to live up to the task of slamming the behemoth. That is, except for one man, flown in by helicopter to redeem America's dignity. That man was Lex Luger.

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Shortly after this, Lex began a campaign to gain a title shot against Yokozuna, and at Summerslam, Lex was granted this oppurtunity. He was granted the chance to wrestle Yokozuna for the WWF Title, with the only stipulation being that this would be Lex's only chance at the belt. Unfortunately, Lex won by count out, after hitting Yokozuna with his steel plate in his forearm, and knocking Yokozuna out on the ringside floor. Lex had won the match and had won over the crowd, but lost his only chance at the title.

Or did he? Soon, Lex entered the 1994 Royal Rumble, and even though Lex was attacked by some of Mr. Fuji's henchmen backstage before the Rumble, Lex went on to become a co-winner of the Royal Rumble, along with the great Bret Hart. He was pushed as the top face, and had he not gotten drunk and blabbed that he was going to win the WWF title to a reporter, who knows how Wrestlemania X would have gone down? Unfortunately, Lex made on of the biggest mistakes of his career, and Bret Hart went on to win the WWF Title.

Lex would then make a bold decision in his career, and jumped back to WCW, immediately feuding with Hulk Hogan and playing the role of a tweener. He went on to win the Tag Titles again and win the TV title. As the nWo invasion began, Luger stood as a stalwart for WCW. He stayed loyal, battling off the threat of the New World Order, and remaining one of WCW's top faces. He challenged the leaders of the nWo, Hogan, Scott Hall, and Kevin Nash, often times getting the upper hand. Luger's use of strength left him as one of WCW's last hopes to stop the nWo. At one point, Lex Luger even torture racked the five hundred pound Giant, showing just how strong he truly was. He soon earned a shot at Hollywood Hulk Hogan, though it was much believed that the nWo's interference would lead to an unsuccesful attempt. Then, on August 4th, 1997, Lex Luger indeed shocked the world. In what will go down as one of WCW's greatest moments, and certainly one of their biggest pops, Lex had done the unthinkable. When all had fallen to the power of the New World Order, Lex proved he was unstoppable, and proceeded to do something that no one in WCW had until this point.

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Lex Luger defeated Hulk Hogan for the WCW Heavyweight Title, and proved that WCW could survive against the nWo. He struck the first major blow into the nWo, and started the WCW charge against the rougue stable.

Was Lex the greatest of wrestlers? Absolutely not. But he was one of the most over faces (and heels) when the time called for him to step. A former heavyweight champion, and one of the most unrecognizable faces in pro wrestling.

I'm sorry, CH David.... But the evidence is there. That is a history of one of the best career's in the history of professional wrestling. You can choose to either ignore it or accept it, but that's just some background.

Now then, allow myself to give more reasoning here.

1. He, along with Sting, Rick Rude, and Vader, kept WCW alive during a time when Ric Flair left, and took the WCW Championship.


Seriously, were it not for the exploits of these three men, it's very arguable WCW would have been sunk. In case you don't know the story, Jim Herd severely pissed off Ric Flair, by trying to put him in the background, and burying his character. At one point, Herd wanted Flair to dress up like a Spartan, and refer to himself as Spartacus. No joke.

So Ric Flair left. And took four things away from WCW, and Jim Herd:

1. The Heart and Soul of WCW.
2. The climax to the raging feud between Luger and Flair, in which Luger was to finally go over Flair, and win the WCW Title
3. WCW's top heel
4. And most imprtantly, the WCW Title.

So who was there to carry WCW, in its darkest days, and see to it that it didn't die a slow and painful death?

Yes, that would be Lex Luger. He turned heel, and became WCW's top heel, and World Champion, all in the same night. And for that year, Luger kept his head held high, and worked as champion, in a time in which WCW could've easily been sunk. He, Sting, Rick Rude and Vader are the only reasons WCW did not close it's doors. These four were the only stars WCW had at this moment, and this was a promotion that had lost plenty of legitimacy by losing it's world title. Legitimacy that was restored by the likes of four men. They, more than anyone else, saved WCW.

2. His Feud with Ric Flair is one of the most legendary in the history of the NWA/WCW

Seriously, for those that say Luger couldn't draw, I entice you to watch this entire feud. This was as great a buildup as there ever was. Their match at the Great American Bash was easily the best NWA Championship match of its time. And while Flair did get the upper hand in the feud, it still drew like wildfire, and brought plenty of attention to the NWA. The ending to the Luger/Flair match is still legendary to this day, and is possibly one of the loudest pops in the history of pro wrestling. Luger fought off the Horsemen, by himself, and was easily the best draw the NWA as a face at that point. Then, once again, in their feud in 1991, in which they were to fight in a steel cage match. However, since that match was pulled due to Flair leaving, we never got to see Luger get the upper hand on Flair. Still, he was a consistent draw as a face and both as the heelish US Champion (The longest reigning US Champion, in case you missed the earlier post)

He is responsible for igniting the Monday Night Wars.

It was his spur of the moment of appearance on Nitro that set up the foundation for where Bischoff wanted to take his program. He wanted a show that was unpredictable, in which always left you guessing. And absolutely no one knew that Luger was going to show up on Nitro. It was a showing to the wrestling world that WCW could, in fact, compete with the WWE. Lex left, went on to WCW, and was made a star. You don't think somewhere, Hall and Nash were watching, and conspiring?

Anyway, the point is, Luger showing up on Nitro was the "holy shit" moment Nitro needed. It gave them the shot in the arm, and the feeling that just about anything can happen. Anyone could show up on Nitro, and anything could happen.

All because of Lex Luger and Eric Bischoff.

4. He, not Sting, was WCW's MVP in the feud with the NWO

And as much as I'm a Sting mark, this is true. Think; how many times did Sting actually wrestle a match from late 1996-1997. Eric kept Sting out of the rin on purpose, but how could he keep that up? Basically, he had to have someone keep WCW alive until Sting came back, and was working matches. Someone needed to hold the fort, and keep WCW as viable competition to the NWO.

That man was Lex Luger. He went through the entire NWO in great matches, and drew a great story of having Hogan's number. I'm not sure if you heard, but that pop when Luger won the WCW Title was in-fucking-credible. He was the only wrestler to stay loyal to WCW that was a legitimate contender to the WCW Title. The Giant flip flopped too many times, Flair was being phased out (again) and Savage eventually turned heel. There was only one face that kept WCW as hot as it was throughout 1997, and still actually managed to get involved in the ring, where it mattered.

That face was Lex Luger. The best wrestler from Chicago.

 

[CH David]

Now, admittedly, this was meant to be a thread between myself and the great CH David. This is going to be one of those mano y mano things, though anyone is welcome to join, should they choose. Many wrestlers have been billed from Chicago, either kayfabe or otherwise. This question seeks to answer one simple question.... Who is the best?

Now then, David, I want you to know something right now... I never intended to use what you're about to see come up as part of my post. I chose Chicago because I felt this was going to give us the absolute best debate, seeing as how you're from Chicago. I chose Lex Luger, because I feel that he is, legitimately, the best wrestler to be billed from Chicago. Now then, I promise you, I never intended to use this.... However, a long, long time ago, The Lariat built a post in which he asked us to consider a Hall of Fame Worthy Wrestler, and build their case for the Hall of Fame.

Naturally, I chose Lex Luger. And since the evidence is here, I do, in fact, intend on using it:


I'm sorry, CH David.... But the evidence is there. That is a history of one of the best career's in the history of professional wrestling. You can choose to either ignore it or accept it, but that's just some background.

First off, fuck me sideways. I asked for the challenge, and didn't expect you to give me a lot of leverage. Glad you didn't. Now I'm not ignoring that entire post of Luger's HOF Candidacy. He had an awesome career. Definitely worthy. But just because of that, he is the best billed from Chicago? Most certainly not. But I'll tell you who is. I'll take a few things I've picked up from the Debator League, maybe it will help out. Well only if it were clarity points. Fuck it.

AJ Pierzynski

[YOUTUBE]WjuAhvDSPII[/YOUTUBE]​

Yes of course I'm bullshitting you Tenta. But it was worth it. Perhaps I should have used Brian Urlacher? Nah. To the real candidate.

CM Punk

[YOUTUBE]fjN75Dk0W-Q[/YOUTUBE]​

Yep, and I am serious about this one. The Straight Edge superstar is the best wrestler to come from the Windy City, like you say, billed kayfabe or otherwise. I shall also provide some background.

Growing up, he knew he wanted to be a wrestler, watching his favorites on tv, and doing backyard wrestling. But then he found out about Ace Steel and had his wrestling school, the Steel Dominion, being trained by Steel, Danny Dominion, and Kevin Quinn. From there, he would wrestle in Steel Domain Wrestling in St. Paul, where he would meet Scott Colton aka Colt Cabana. They became best friends and pretty much traveled every promotion they could together.

From there, Punk would go into IWA Mid-South wrestling. It was here that he really started a rise in the ranks if you will. Great matches and feuds with his buddy Colt Cabana, Chris Hero, in fact, here is the end of a hell of a match between Hero and Punk. (Watch the whole thing, fucking sick, although you may be offended or pissed off in part 4 Tenta.)

[YOUTUBE]wa8tF4_QfJg[/YOUTUBE]

This match was brutal. But while he was IWA-MS, he would also defeat names such as AJ Styles, Cabana, the late great Eddie Guerrero for the title.

But he also had some good work on the mic, if you enjoy that sort of thing.

[YOUTUBE]rdRo9JsfBZM[/YOUTUBE]

It was his work in IWA-MS that pretty much got his job in another promotion we like to call Ring of Honor.

His start in ROH was backed by a strong feud with Raven. Some great promos, and plenty of No-DQ matches. Same time he started at ROH he was also in NWA TNA, now just TNA, ironically as part of Raven's stable.

He would stop working with TNA in 2004, as TNA was cutting ties with ROH at the time, and he preferred ROH to TNA. During this time, Punk would settle into a feud with Samoa Joe, and have a series of three matches. In the first two matches, the results were the same, with both being 60 minute time draws. However, the second one had to be rushed and rescheduled from a December 4th date, to October 16th in Punk's home town of Chicago. This match would become ROH's best selling DVD, and also the first American 5 Star match from Dave Meltzer in seven years. The third and final match had no time restrictions, and Joe was able to best Punk.

The following June, Punk was given a developmental deal by the one and only WWE. However, he would win the ROH World Championship over Austin Aries at Death Before Dishonor III, and immediately cut a fantastic promo to turn heel. Wish I could find it now. Until he left for OVW, Punk threatened to bring the belt with him when he left, even signing the contract on the belt. But he would defend the belt and lose it before he left, in a match with James Gibson (Jamie Noble), Joe, and Christopher Daniels. In 2006, due to a snow storm and ROH not having a portion of their roster, Punk made an impromptu appearance, teaming with Bryan Danielson in a winning effort over Adam Pearce and Jimmy Rave.

Punk would then rise through the ranks of OVW, winning the OVW TV title, OVW Heavyweight title, and the OVW Southern Tag Team titles. He was brought up to the roster and participated in an ECW house show match, and made a television appearance talking about being sXe and all that good shit. He finally made his TV wrestling debut at the Hammerstein Ballroom over Justin Credible. He was very widely known, and had his name chanted at the start of the match. See for yourself.

[YOUTUBE]ZTqOv3gJbEg[/YOUTUBE]

Not a bad match either. He would go on to be undefeated since his debut until he lost to Hardcore Holly after six months.

Now I'll just skim the rest of his career up to this point, as most of us know what Punk has done in his time in WWE. He would have a pretty good feud with Johnny Nitro, now John Morrison, and in a last chance match, finally won the ECW Championship. I don't know about you, but I marked out like a mofo that night. He had a pretty good, almost five months of a reign, facing decent competition at best, Elijah Burke, Big Daddy V, Miz, Morrison when he returned, until he lost it to Chavo due to interference from Edge in January.

He would then compete in Money in the Bank at WM last year, going on to win. He was drafted to Raw, and the following week he surprised the hell out of everyone, and would use Batista's attack on Edge to his advantage, and cashed in MITB to keep the title on Raw. He would have some lackluster feuds with Batista and JBL, and was attacked before his title defense in the Scramble at Unforgiven. He had his rematch but failed to beat Jericho in the cage.

Punk and Kofi would beat Priceless for the titles, only to lose to Miz and Morrison two months later. Enter in the IC Title chase, he would have three matches against William Regal, first Regal got a DQ, second Punk did, and third Punk won. He would drop it to JBL, but would pick up his second MITB win at Wrestlemania. (A lot of people bitched about it, I still don't understand why)

Afterwards he was drafted to Smackdown, had a feud with Umaga, ending at Extreme Rules. Later that night he beat a battered and bruised Jeff Hardy for his second title win. This was the beginning of the best feud of the summer, and saw Punk's inevitable, great, and true heel turn. He would lose to Jeff at Night of Champions, only to win it back in a hell of a TLC match at Summerslam, and forced Jeff to "retire" the following Friday in a Cage match. The next week, he pulled quite possibly the best gag ever, by impersonating Jeff.

[YOUTUBE]T8yLB_OqnCQ[/YOUTUBE]

The looks on the fans' faces. They looked like they wanted to kill Punk, and if looks could kill, Punk would be dead thousands of times over.

He would then enter in with the Undertaker, winning in a submission match at Breaking Point, or for those who are petty, Screwjob II. He would then lose at Hell in a Cell, and would not win at Bragging Rights in the Fatal Fourway. Now he has a nice little thing going with R-Truth, but last week we saw something new. Punk now has a follower. Will this be a new stable? A sXe stable? Time will tell, but that is a hell of a 10 years for CM Punk.

So if you are still awake after this borefest, I shall talk about your points here.

Now then, allow myself to give more reasoning here.

1. He, along with Sting, Rick Rude, and Vader, kept WCW alive during a time when Ric Flair left, and took the WCW Championship.


Seriously, were it not for the exploits of these three men, it's very arguable WCW would have been sunk. In case you don't know the story, Jim Herd severely pissed off Ric Flair, by trying to put him in the background, and burying his character. At one point, Herd wanted Flair to dress up like a Spartan, and refer to himself as Spartacus. No joke.

So Ric Flair left. And took four things away from WCW, and Jim Herd:

1. The Heart and Soul of WCW.
2. The climax to the raging feud between Luger and Flair, in which Luger was to finally go over Flair, and win the WCW Title
3. WCW's top heel
4. And most imprtantly, the WCW Title.

So who was there to carry WCW, in its darkest days, and see to it that it didn't die a slow and painful death?

Yes, that would be Lex Luger. He turned heel, and became WCW's top heel, and World Champion, all in the same night. And for that year, Luger kept his head held high, and worked as champion, in a time in which WCW could've easily been sunk. He, Sting, Rick Rude and Vader are the only reasons WCW did not close it's doors. These four were the only stars WCW had at this moment, and this was a promotion that had lost plenty of legitimacy by losing it's world title. Legitimacy that was restored by the likes of four men. They, more than anyone else, saved WCW.

First off there Tenta, you say it was three men, but you list four. God you suck. Lol.

On a serious note, sure he became the new champ, and top heel in WCW in one night. He did an illegal maneuver (am I Michael Cole?) to win. After that, he stayed over by pretty much being a racist ass to Ron Simmons. I know I'm not a big fan of racist people in general, unless I get that mixed up, I was one year old at the time. But yes, the four of those men helped keep it afloat. Luger was champion during this time, I'm not saying he wasn't a draw, but he needed his help. If he was alone, it was under. He needed Sting, Rude, and Vader.

2. His Feud with Ric Flair is one of the most legendary in the history of the NWA/WCW

Seriously, for those that say Luger couldn't draw, I entice you to watch this entire feud. This was as great a buildup as there ever was. Their match at the Great American Bash was easily the best NWA Championship match of its time. And while Flair did get the upper hand in the feud, it still drew like wildfire, and brought plenty of attention to the NWA. The ending to the Luger/Flair match is still legendary to this day, and is possibly one of the loudest pops in the history of pro wrestling. Luger fought off the Horsemen, by himself, and was easily the best draw the NWA as a face at that point. Then, once again, in their feud in 1991, in which they were to fight in a steel cage match. However, since that match was pulled due to Flair leaving, we never got to see Luger get the upper hand on Flair. Still, he was a consistent draw as a face and both as the heelish US Champion (The longest reigning US Champion, in case you missed the earlier post)

Of course it was a great feud and draw. It was Ric Flair. Not to put Luger down, he was a monstrocity, but people loved watching to see Flair lose. If I were old enough back then I know I would have been tuning in to watch this. And yes, longest reign as US Champion. He was the shizzle no doubt. I just don't see him as the greatest to be billed from Chicago.

He is responsible for igniting the Monday Night Wars.

It was his spur of the moment of appearance on Nitro that set up the foundation for where Bischoff wanted to take his program. He wanted a show that was unpredictable, in which always left you guessing. And absolutely no one knew that Luger was going to show up on Nitro. It was a showing to the wrestling world that WCW could, in fact, compete with the WWE. Lex left, went on to WCW, and was made a star. You don't think somewhere, Hall and Nash were watching, and conspiring?

Anyway, the point is, Luger showing up on Nitro was the "holy shit" moment Nitro needed. It gave them the shot in the arm, and the feeling that just about anything can happen. Anyone could show up on Nitro, and anything could happen.

All because of Lex Luger and Eric Bischoff.

Yes you have a point that he was the first true star to jump ship back to WCW. The appearance at Nitro was huge. I wouldn't necessarily say it ignited the Monday Night Wars though. It gave people a reason to watch and the thought process of who would jump over next.

And no, I don't think Hall and Nash were conspiring, at least at that time. Hall was dealing with his loss to HBK at Summerslam the week before, or dealing with Dean Douglas, I still hadn't come into wrestling, cut me some slack on this portion, and Nash was the WWF Champion at the time.

4. He, not Sting, was WCW's MVP in the feud with the NWO

And as much as I'm a Sting mark, this is true. Think; how many times did Sting actually wrestle a match from late 1996-1997. Eric kept Sting out of the rin on purpose, but how could he keep that up? Basically, he had to have someone keep WCW alive until Sting came back, and was working matches. Someone needed to hold the fort, and keep WCW as viable competition to the NWO.

That man was Lex Luger. He went through the entire NWO in great matches, and drew a great story of having Hogan's number. I'm not sure if you heard, but that pop when Luger won the WCW Title was in-fucking-credible. He was the only wrestler to stay loyal to WCW that was a legitimate contender to the WCW Title. The Giant flip flopped too many times, Flair was being phased out (again) and Savage eventually turned heel. There was only one face that kept WCW as hot as it was throughout 1997, and still actually managed to get involved in the ring, where it mattered.

That face was Lex Luger. The best wrestler from Chicago.

But you realize, Sting may not have wrestled, but he felt betrayed by the roster. They all thought he joined the nWo. He turned darker, and still messed with the nWo's heads. He was the true leader of WCW. Luger was great, probably right up there with Sting against the nWo, but Sting was the man. You know this.

But let me ask you this now. What about the time Luger actually broke kayfabe? He walked out of a fricking match, in NWA Florida. Would the best actually walk out of a match, when he is in the ring? He did it because Bruiser Brody was working stiff, yes it was dangerous, but he still walked off, disappointing the fans there to see him in the Main Event. Now before you answer with "Austin would leave due to storyline or something" remember this, he was not in the ring when it happened. He would keep it backstage where it belonged.

Would the best get drunk and screw up the chance to win a major championship? Hell you even made a thread on it. Luger got shit faced one night, blabbed that he would win the WWF Championship, and then Vince switched it to Bret Hart to win. Again, if you say "Punk got in trouble with Taker so he lost his title", Punk made a comment that Undertaker said about his clothes. Taker and management thought it was disrespect to Cena, whether it was or not. Luger told writers he was going to win. Again, breaking kayfabe and fucking things up.

With CM Punk, he will not get drunk, high, smoke, any of that stuff, and end up blabbing to tabloids about what will happen. He is a very durable wrestler, and still has a good future (barring injury) in the WWE. He has accomplished so much in 10 years, just imagine what another 10 years could lead to. He rose up from backyard wrestling, to small time promotions, to middle of the road promotions (at the time) to being one of the champions of the biggest wrestling company this side of the Pacific Ocean.

Now this has been a long one, probably my longest post. The floor is yours my good friend.

 

[theviolentmessiah]

Well I'm not going to be as long as the previous posts but I'm deffinately going to have to side with CM Punk. Most of it has already been said but I'll reitterate. Punk's Chicago pride, he even named his double underhook backbreaker "Welcome to Chicago" Punk's rise to fame is also a legendary tale and his changes of style and use of his straightedge gimmick is undeniably amazingy. CM Punk has held the top title in every company he's been and won the Triple Crown in WWE faster than anyone else. He took the wrestling world by storm and his mic and wrestling skills combined are almost without par.

 

[Tenta]

First off, fuck me sideways. I asked for the challenge, and didn't expect you to give me a lot of leverage. Glad you didn't. Now I'm not ignoring that entire post of Luger's HOF Candidacy. He had an awesome career. Definitely worthy. But just because of that, he is the best billed from Chicago? Most certainly not. But I'll tell you who is. I'll take a few things I've picked up from the Debator League, maybe it will help out. Well only if it were clarity points. Fuck it.

First of all, before we get this started, I’d like to say that I found this to be a tremendous piece. Very well written, and it has all you can ask for from an outstanding post. However, one thing is conspicuous by its absence. But we’ll touch on that later. As for now, this is a very well written defense of your favorite superstar. I’ve always known you a terrific poster, and now you’ve shot up to the ranks of the big boys, as Dusty Rhodes would like to say.

Still, I have to tear this apart.

AJ Pierzynski

[YOUTUBE]WjuAhvDSPII[/YOUTUBE]​

Yes of course I'm bullshitting you Tenta. But it was worth it. Perhaps I should have used Brian Urlacher? Nah. To the real candidate.

CM Punk

[YOUTUBE]fjN75Dk0W-Q[/YOUTUBE]​

God, it’d make my job easier if it were Pierzynski. Though he likes to takes cheap shots when he can. That’s neither here nor there. Again, you chose the magnificent CM Punk. A wise choice.

Just not as good as Lex Luger.

Yep, and I am serious about this one. The Straight Edge superstar is the best wrestler to come from the Windy City, like you say, billed kayfabe or otherwise. I shall also provide some background.

Growing up, he knew he wanted to be a wrestler, watching his favorites on tv, and doing backyard wrestling. But then he found out about Ace Steel and had his wrestling school, the Steel Dominion, being trained by Steel, Danny Dominion, and Kevin Quinn. From there, he would wrestle in Steel Domain Wrestling in St. Paul, where he would meet Scott Colton aka Colt Cabana. They became best friends and pretty much traveled every promotion they could together.

Let’s just make the comparison here:

Hiro Matsudo trained Hulk Hogan, Muta, Ron Simmons, Paul Orndorff, and had a hand in Ric Flair. He trained a who’s who of professional wrestling. Not to mention the guy that has drawn the most in the history of professional wrestling.

Your guys greatest accomplishments are training Lita, and appearing as Donald Trump in the Rosie VS. Donald match.

Which resume sounds better again?

From there, Punk would go into IWA Mid-South wrestling. It was here that he really started a rise in the ranks if you will. Great matches and feuds with his buddy Colt Cabana, Chris Hero, in fact, here is the end of a hell of a match between Hero and Punk. (Watch the whole thing, fucking sick, although you may be offended or pissed off in part 4 Tenta.)

[YOUTUBE]wa8tF4_QfJg[/YOUTUBE]

This match was brutal. But while he was IWA-MS, he would also defeat names such as AJ Styles, Cabana, the late great Eddie Guerrero for the title.

I don’t want this taken the wrong way at all by any smark out here… But I place absolutely no credit into what someone does in an indy promotion. Really, I don’t. He’s working against guys that, at the time, are either running between promotions, got fired (Guerrero), or just flat out aren’t ready for the big time. Drawing, to me, isn’t filling out the high schools across the country. It’s Being one of, if not the, top guy in the top promotions. But Punk eventually makes it there, so let’s not write him off yet.

But he also had some good work on the mic, if you enjoy that sort of thing.

[YOUTUBE]rdRo9JsfBZM[/YOUTUBE]

It was his work in IWA-MS that pretty much got his job in another promotion we like to call Ring of Honor.

Yeah, you know why he was able to do that promo, ChiHawks? Because there was about a hundred people in the audience. And that’s being generous.

His start in ROH was backed by a strong feud with Raven. Some great promos, and plenty of No-DQ matches. Same time he started at ROH he was also in NWA TNA, now just TNA, ironically as part of Raven's stable.

Now we’ll get into some juice.

He would stop working with TNA in 2004, as TNA was cutting ties with ROH at the time, and he preferred ROH to TNA. During this time, Punk would settle into a feud with Samoa Joe, and have a series of three matches. In the first two matches, the results were the same, with both being 60 minute time draws. However, the second one had to be rushed and rescheduled from a December 4th date, to October 16th in Punk's home town of Chicago. This match would become ROH's best selling DVD, and also the first American 5 Star match from Dave Meltzer in seven years. The third and final match had no time restrictions, and Joe was able to best Punk.

First and foremost, I’m going to open this up with a rather shocking revelation; I don’t put very much stock into Dave Meltzer. I really don’t. The match was good, but it was nowhere near the level of Flair/Luger at the GAB. Which, by the way, I love how you point out the 60 minute affect like it was that meaningful. Here’s something to consider; Lex and Flair made a habit of wrestling sixty minutes at house shows. Why? Because in Flair and Luger’s day, wrestling sixty minutes wasn’t a spectacle; it was a necessity. Flair and Harley continually put up sixty minute matches. So did Flair and the Funker. Anyone with a good history of his NWA will tell you wrestling sixty minutes, in their day, wasn’t some huge accomplishment. And Flair and Luger did it plenty of times. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure Luger and Barry did it a couple times, too. So there goes your whole “Flair’s carrying him” argument.

The following June, Punk was given a developmental deal by the one and only WWE. However, he would win the ROH World Championship over Austin Aries at Death Before Dishonor III, and immediately cut a fantastic promo to turn heel. Wish I could find it now. Until he left for OVW, Punk threatened to bring the belt with him when he left, even signing the contract on the belt. But he would defend the belt and lose it before he left, in a match with James Gibson (Jamie Noble), Joe, and Christopher Daniels. In 2006, due to a snow storm and ROH not having a portion of their roster, Punk made an impromptu appearance, teaming with Bryan Danielson in a winning effort over Adam Pearce and Jimmy Rave.

I’m not sure at all why this is important, but what the Hell.

Punk would then rise through the ranks of OVW, winning the OVW TV title, OVW Heavyweight title, and the OVW Southern Tag Team titles. He was brought up to the roster and participated in an ECW house show match, and made a television appearance talking about being sXe and all that good shit. He finally made his TV wrestling debut at the Hammerstein Ballroom over Justin Credible. He was very widely known, and had his name chanted at the start of the match. See for yourself.

[YOUTUBE]ZTqOv3gJbEg[/YOUTUBE]

Not a bad match either. He would go on to be undefeated since his debut until he lost to Hardcore Holly after six months.

First of all, again, developmental territories are not that important to me. The fact that he spent little time in OVW doesn’t mean squat. Second, he was then brought up to WWE’s other territory, ECW. Because that was pretty much what it was at this point, ChiHawks. Consider what you just wrote… His first job on ECW was to Hardcore Holly. If that doesn’t scream out “lifetime midcarder, I don’t know what does. Lex Luger went 523 days without a loss. Six months is nothing.

Now I'll just skim the rest of his career up to this point, as most of us know what Punk has done in his time in WWE. He would have a pretty good feud with Johnny Nitro, now John Morrison, and in a last chance match, finally won the ECW Championship. I don't know about you, but I marked out like a mofo that night. He had a pretty good, almost five months of a reign, facing decent competition at best, Elijah Burke, Big Daddy V, Miz, Morrison when he returned, until he lost it to Chavo due to interference from Edge in January.

I really wish you actually highlighted this, David. Because this is what people are going to care about his; his run with the big boys. I wish you would have highlighted his run with The Gathering, because that was also good. But no, you did the inverse; you chose to highlight his indy career.

And you know what tells me about CM Punk? It tells me he’s perfectly fine against the small fishes, but when he’s sent out to the large ocean, he gets swallowed up. That’s what everyone says about Punk, David. That he can’t draw, that he is not a major cog in WWE, and that he doesn’t have much to claim to his career either than two failed runs with the big belt. Consider the names you just mentioned when you were talking about ECW:

John Morrison-Still working on a personality. Wasn’t much to him
Miz- Was horrendous before he was paired with Morrison. Which didn’t happen initially during Punk’s reign
Elijah Burke- Even in TNA, he’s a midcarder
Big Daddy V- Do I even really need to say anything about this?
And finally, the piece de resistance
Chavo- The same guy that’s now passing out popcorn at the vending stand, and loses to Hornswoggle every now and then.

Doesn’t sound too great, does it?

He would then compete in Money in the Bank at WM last year, going on to win. He was drafted to Raw, and the following week he surprised the hell out of everyone, and would use Batista's attack on Edge to his advantage, and cashed in MITB to keep the title on Raw. He would have some lackluster feuds with Batista and JBL, and was attacked before his title defense in the Scramble at Unforgiven. He had his rematch but failed to beat Jericho in the cage.

Did you see where I highlighted, David? This was Punk’s time at the main event. And you know what; he dropped the ball. I mean, you really can’t tell me otherwise. What about his first run with the title was not an epic failure. It’s why I bet you’re about to discuss his next couple months, in which he was shoved back down to the mid card.

Punk and Kofi would beat Priceless for the titles, only to lose to Miz and Morrison two months later. Enter in the IC Title chase, he would have three matches against William Regal, first Regal got a DQ, second Punk did, and third Punk won. He would drop it to JBL, but would pick up his second MITB win at Wrestlemania. (A lot of people bitched about it, I still don't understand why)

What can I say, folks? Can I call them, or can I call them?

Afterwards he was drafted to Smackdown, had a feud with Umaga, ending at Extreme Rules. Later that night he beat a battered and bruised Jeff Hardy for his second title win. This was the beginning of the best feud of the summer, and saw Punk's inevitable, great, and true heel turn. He would lose to Jeff at Night of Champions, only to win it back in a hell of a TLC match at Summerslam, and forced Jeff to "retire" the following Friday in a Cage match. The next week, he pulled quite possibly the best gag ever, by impersonating Jeff.

[YOUTUBE]T8yLB_OqnCQ[/YOUTUBE]

The looks on the fans' faces. They looked like they wanted to kill Punk, and if looks could kill, Punk would be dead thousands of times over.

You notice something there, Chi? That, pretty much, Punk was made to not look like Hardy’s equal. In fact, up until that last match, Hardy had the upper hand over Punk. And lest we forget, Hardy was leaving soon enough.

He would then enter in with the Undertaker, winning in a submission match at Breaking Point, or for those who are petty, Screwjob II. He would then lose at Hell in a Cell, and would not win at Bragging Rights in the Fatal Fourway. Now he has a nice little thing going with R-Truth, but last week we saw something new. Punk now has a follower. Will this be a new stable? A sXe stable? Time will tell, but that is a hell of a 10 years for CM Punk.

Whatever it is, I can tell you one thing; it’ll be in the mid card. Because Vince has realized Punk just isn’t a draw.

So if you are still awake after this borefest, I shall talk about your points here.

Oh no, I actually enjoyed that. Still, you are missing something.

First off there Tenta, you say it was three men, but you list four. God you suck. Lol.

On a serious note, sure he became the new champ, and top heel in WCW in one night. He did an illegal maneuver (am I Michael Cole?) to win. After that, he stayed over by pretty much being a racist ass to Ron Simmons. I know I'm not a big fan of racist people in general, unless I get that mixed up, I was one year old at the time. But yes, the four of those men helped keep it afloat. Luger was champion during this time, I'm not saying he wasn't a draw, but he needed his help. If he was alone, it was under. He needed Sting, Rude, and Vader.

LOL, I actually forgot Rude was a part of WCW, until I wrote this. I was initially going to put Vader, Sting and Luger. Anyway, yes, I agree. Luger needed them. Just like Punk needed Hardy, Taker, and anyone else he worked with. It’s never a one man show. Good workers need good workers. Punk and Luger both had plenty. And while Luger in the main event lasted, Punk… Well, didn’t.

Of course it was a great feud and draw. It was Ric Flair. Not to put Luger down, he was a monstrocity, but people loved watching to see Flair lose. If I were old enough back then I know I would have been tuning in to watch this. And yes, longest reign as US Champion. He was the shizzle no doubt. I just don't see him as the greatest to be billed from Chicago.

It’s simple. He had the best career, made the most money, drew in the most fans, won the world title for most of the time, and was seen as the main guy for much longer than Punk. He also has more classic moments, more heated feuds, and also more historical significance than Punk. Amongst other things.

Yes you have a point that he was the first true star to jump ship back to WCW. The appearance at Nitro was huge. I wouldn't necessarily say it ignited the Monday Night Wars though. It gave people a reason to watch and the thought process of who would jump over next.

Exactly. And if WCW didn’t have that, the MNW may not have taken off as early. So that’s why you have Luger to thank

And no, I don't think Hall and Nash were conspiring, at least at that time. Hall was dealing with his loss to HBK at Summerslam the week before, or dealing with Dean Douglas, I still hadn't come into wrestling, cut me some slack on this portion, and Nash was the WWF Champion at the time.

Well, let’s really look at that.

Hall- fledgling away at the mid card, though he was over as a mother fucker. Sees someone that was stuck in the mid card like him reach the main event in WCW, and make more money. Yeah, that wouldn’t influence him at all.

Nash- Just flat out pissed where he was going. Saw Luger jump. Realizes he has some options, takes a chance with WCW, and cashes in big.

But you realize, Sting may not have wrestled, but he felt betrayed by the roster. They all thought he joined the nWo. He turned darker, and still messed with the nWo's heads. He was the true leader of WCW. Luger was great, probably right up there with Sting against the nWo, but Sting was the man. You know this.

No, Sting was actually not aligned with anyone for a while. He was merely a man out for vengeance. He had not ties. Luger, meanwhile, was always loyal to WCW. Always. And never complained, he always carried WCW, especially in a time when the NWO looked unstoppable. Without Luger, WCW would have been buried.

But let me ask you this now. What about the time Luger actually broke kayfabe? He walked out of a fricking match, in NWA Florida. Would the best actually walk out of a match, when he is in the ring? He did it because Bruiser Brody was working stiff, yes it was dangerous, but he still walked off, disappointing the fans there to see him in the Main Event. Now before you answer with "Austin would leave due to storyline or something" remember this, he was not in the ring when it happened. He would keep it backstage where it belonged.

Dude, there’s a huge difference. Luger thought Brody was going to maim him. And the truth was, Brody was crazy enough to do it. Also, for every bit of unprofessional Luger was, Brody was too. Luger left the ring because he was frustrated with Brody’s unprofessional behavior. And again, this was Luger’s first time ever dealing with this, and he was new. Can you fault a guy when it’s someone like Brody, who could snap in an instant?

Would the best get drunk and screw up the chance to win a major championship? Hell you even made a thread on it. Luger got shit faced one night, blabbed that he would win the WWF Championship, and then Vince switched it to Bret Hart to win.

Well, it’s only speculation. Besides, Bret’s book doesn’t exactly see it that way. It’s possible that happened, but again, I was more doing it to stir conversation.

Again, if you say "Punk got in trouble with Taker so he lost his title", Punk made a comment that Undertaker said about his clothes. Taker and management thought it was disrespect to Cena, whether it was or not. Luger told writers he was going to win. Again, breaking kayfabe and fucking things up.

Look, there’s just things you don’t do. Mouthing off to the Undertaker is one of them. How dumb can you be to do that?

With CM Punk, he will not get drunk, high, smoke, any of that stuff, and end up blabbing to tabloids about what will happen. He is a very durable wrestler, and still has a good future (barring injury) in the WWE. He has accomplished so much in 10 years, just imagine what another 10 years could lead to. He rose up from backyard wrestling, to small time promotions, to middle of the road promotions (at the time) to being one of the champions of the biggest wrestling company this side of the Pacific Ocean.

Now this has been a long one, probably my longest post. The floor is yours my good friend.

You know what seems to be missing here, which I referenced to earlier? It’s so obvious, I’m shocked you missed it.

You missed answering what makes CM Punk better now. That is conspicuous by it’s absence. You threw around some hypothetical answers, and some theories. But that really does you jack squat in the argument. It doesn’t answer why Punk is a better draw, or a better wrestler, or a better figure in history. All it says is that he could, in due time, become one of the best. And I’ll admit, it is possible. But he has a long way to go.

And between you and me, he’s nowhere near close to Lex Luger.

 

[NSL]

Wait...No love for Mongo?

I kid, I kid...

Lex Luger is a pile of crap to me. Jeff Jarrett, Ken Kennedy, and Lex Luger...Those are my trifecta from hell. I can live without any of them in the ring. When I first started thinking of wrestlers from Chicago, CM Punk immediately came to mind.

He's the best on the mic of any I can think of, and his worst matches are about 10x better than anything Lex did. He's more entertaining, although I hate to use that as a measuring stick. His matches are well above what Luger did, and his feuds are (for the most part), better.

Luger had the opportunity to work with some real greats, that's why I say Punk's are mostly better. He has less to work with, and still does better.

 

[CH David]

First of all, before we get this started, I’d like to say that I found this to be a tremendous piece. Very well written, and it has all you can ask for from an outstanding post. However, one thing is conspicuous by its absence. But we’ll touch on that later. As for now, this is a very well written defense of your favorite superstar. I’ve always known you a terrific poster, and now you’ve shot up to the ranks of the big boys, as Dusty Rhodes would like to say.

Thank you for the kind words Tenta. Means a lot, especially coming from bud like you. Let's get back to it.

God, it’d make my job easier if it were Pierzynski. Though he likes to takes cheap shots when he can. That’s neither here nor there. Again, you chose the magnificent CM Punk. A wise choice.

Just not as good as Lex Luger.

I wonder if I could have made a case for AJ. Nah. But yes, if I chose AJ, then even an idiot could have an easy job doing it.

Let’s just make the comparison here:

Hiro Matsudo trained Hulk Hogan, Muta, Ron Simmons, Paul Orndorff, and had a hand in Ric Flair. He trained a who’s who of professional wrestling. Not to mention the guy that has drawn the most in the history of professional wrestling.

Your guys greatest accomplishments are training Lita, and appearing as Donald Trump in the Rosie VS. Donald match.

Which resume sounds better again?

Don't forget, Lita is one of the best divas of all time. And the love of my life when I was younger. So hush lol.

Anywho, sure Hiro Matsuda , trained the greatest of the great in Hogan, Muta, and all of them. They are who they are for a reason. But he worked stiff as a motherfucker. Imagine if Hogan said fuck this and went elsewhere to be trained. Do we have Hogan? Eh, irrelevant to the debate so screw it.

Now the resume sounds better for Luger's trainer. I would not and will not argue that. But I personally think it is more impressive that Punk had to go to a little podunk fucking school, learn from the men he did, and has made it this far. Besides, even if he wanted to, he couldn't get to Japan to train under Matsuda. He was pretty much broke as a joke, and Matsuda passed in '99. But yeah, your resume sounds better, I just find it more impressive for what Punk did.

I don’t want this taken the wrong way at all by any smark out here… But I place absolutely no credit into what someone does in an indy promotion. Really, I don’t. He’s working against guys that, at the time, are either running between promotions, got fired (Guerrero), or just flat out aren’t ready for the big time. Drawing, to me, isn’t filling out the high schools across the country. It’s Being one of, if not the, top guy in the top promotions. But Punk eventually makes it there, so let’s not write him off yet.

So working in ROH was Bryan Danielson not ready for the big time? Had to ask it, whether a smart ass or not. I don't believe he wasn't ready, more that Vince didn't want him until recently. Danielson is very popular among the indy constituants, or as Sid would say, God to the ROHbots.

You don't give credit to the indies. I do though. Which is probably where we will keep this at. I'd say those were some damn good people he would face in IWA-MS though, regardless of if they were too low to be noticed by the E, in between jobs, or anything else.

Yeah, you know why he was able to do that promo, ChiHawks? Because there was about a hundred people in the audience. And that’s being generous.

Yeah but you love that promo. You even told me before. But I'll tell you this, Punk being able to even just go off on a tangent like that, shows what goes through his brain for a promo. Punk has a natural feel on the mic. His promos show it, especially now. That was just him going off topic yet still being a complete cocksmith.

First and foremost, I’m going to open this up with a rather shocking revelation; I don’t put very much stock into Dave Meltzer. I really don’t. The match was good, but it was nowhere near the level of Flair/Luger at the GAB. Which, by the way, I love how you point out the 60 minute affect like it was that meaningful. Here’s something to consider; Lex and Flair made a habit of wrestling sixty minutes at house shows. Why? Because in Flair and Luger’s day, wrestling sixty minutes wasn’t a spectacle; it was a necessity. Flair and Harley continually put up sixty minute matches. So did Flair and the Funker. Anyone with a good history of his NWA will tell you wrestling sixty minutes, in their day, wasn’t some huge accomplishment. And Flair and Luger did it plenty of times. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure Luger and Barry did it a couple times, too. So there goes your whole “Flair’s carrying him” argument.

Eh, Dave Meltzer is who he is. It was big for him to put that as a 5 star match, regardless of what people think of him. Personally I don't give a shit about him most days.

However, I never said Flair carried him. I said people watched to see Flair lose, but not that he carried him, nor the feud. It takes two to tango. Flair and Luger worked extremely well together, I am not saying they didn't. And yes, I didn't realize I skipped the Flair - Luger draws. One point Tenta. (Dick )

But remember, they did those routinely back then. It was a great way for people to not look weak. Plus, and I don't know if this hurts or harms me, but people didn't want that feud to end. Again, speculation, as I was barely a twinkle in father's eyes when it started. Would it be best to see Luger win and beat Flair cleanly to keep the title, as they wouldn't just hand out titles like they do now. Again, they were routine, and always great back then when people cared about it as sport, not entertainment like now. Hell, we never see a draw anymore. I personally think it would be refreshing now...off topic again.

I’m not sure at all why this is important, but what the Hell.

Just a basic follow up of background. Duh.

First of all, again, developmental territories are not that important to me. The fact that he spent little time in OVW doesn’t mean squat. Second, he was then brought up to WWE’s other territory, ECW. Because that was pretty much what it was at this point, ChiHawks. Consider what you just wrote… His first job on ECW was to Hardcore Holly. If that doesn’t scream out “lifetime midcarder, I don’t know what does. Lex Luger went 523 days without a loss. Six months is nothing.

Again, I only put it in there as background. He didn't just shoot into WWE or anything. Actually, ECW was a fairly credible show to start out in 2006 when Punk came up. Still had the Originals with some new people mixed in as well. A solid start against C.W. Anderson, Stevie Richards, and a drop off with Shannon Moore. But then he was doing well, was gaining more fans for being more widely recognized, it showed at Survivor Series when he teamed with DX, cheered well. But that could have just been a rub. I don't know.


523 days without a loss? I don't know if I buy that completely, without losing the title for sure, but without a loss? Again, I am a young, probably naive kid, but if he defended that title 523 days in a row, well then I'll kiss you. Yeah I said it. But you get my point. I realize they worked like 340 shots a year back then, I'm guessing, but fuck 523 title defenses and not one loss? He had to have an off day or loss by opponents on the ropes or something man.

I really wish you actually highlighted this, David. Because this is what people are going to care about his; his run with the big boys. I wish you would have highlighted his run with The Gathering, because that was also good. But no, you did the inverse; you chose to highlight his indy career.

I wish for a million dollars Tents, or a night with Trish Status and Lita. But for now we have what we have. I did that because there are a bunch of people, and guests who read these, don't know what Punk did back then, the hard work and dedication he has to make it to where he is now. I can't please you can I? And that can be answered however you choose lol.

And you know what tells me about CM Punk? It tells me he’s perfectly fine against the small fishes, but when he’s sent out to the large ocean, he gets swallowed up. That’s what everyone says about Punk, David. That he can’t draw, that he is not a major cog in WWE, and that he doesn’t have much to claim to his career either than two failed runs with the big belt. Consider the names you just mentioned when you were talking about ECW:

John Morrison-Still working on a personality. Wasn’t much to him
Miz- Was horrendous before he was paired with Morrison. Which didn’t happen initially during Punk’s reign
Elijah Burke- Even in TNA, he’s a midcarder
Big Daddy V- Do I even really need to say anything about this?
And finally, the piece de resistance
Chavo- The same guy that’s now passing out popcorn at the vending stand, and loses to Hornswoggle every now and then.

Doesn’t sound too great, does it?

You know what it tells me bud, his indy career was great, he spent 7 years there, and 3 with the big company. You can't always expect success overnight. He still has had success, maybe not to your standards, but others he has exceeded their expectations.

I'll get into his big belt reigns later. For now, ECW. Morrison was finding himself, but he was still fantastic in the ring. He was garnering enough heat, and that was a pretty good feud going. But, since you break kayfabe a bit later on, I'll do it now. The main plan for ECW, which would have had some credibility, was for Chris Benoit (RIP)to win the title, right? Most likely feuding with Punk. But his shit happened, shoved in Nitro, and we got a pretty good feud for two youngsters finding their legs in the singles competition.

Miz was still trying to get his balls out of his throat at this time. He was a decent performer at best back then, nowhere near where he is now. But it was decent.

I saw nothing when it came to Elijah Burke. He could have been Shelton Benjamin for all I care. I hear he is talented in the ring. Couldn't get over with the big crowds.

Big Daddy V, no nothing needs to be said. I'll say this anyway though, he was a monster, and Punk still came out on top. I feel dumber having actually typed something for BDV.

Yet the past knew nothing of the future when it comes to Chavo. Back then he was a viable contender for the ECW Title. Plus he only won with help from Edge, due to La Familia. But now he is a jobber because Vince wants him to be. It happens.

Did you see where I highlighted, David? This was Punk’s time at the main event. And you know what; he dropped the ball. I mean, you really can’t tell me otherwise. What about his first run with the title was not an epic failure. It’s why I bet you’re about to discuss his next couple months, in which he was shoved back down to the mid card.

It wasn't his time in the Main Event. It was a start, he was thrust in there, absolutely wasting any possible build for anything, all because they couldn't think of a good way for Edge to lose the title to keep it on Raw. Plus, how could he be considered credible at all when his first two opponents were Batista and JBL? Compared to him they were massive. He had no chance to legitimately go over and them not look weak, at least not as a face, and there was no way Punk could make a legit turn then.

What can I say, folks? Can I call them, or can I call them?

What are you calling? Why not call me? Jerkface.

Winning MITB two years in a row is bad? Shit I guess I have been misconstruing the concept for a while then.

You notice something there, Chi? That, pretty much, Punk was made to not look like Hardy’s equal. In fact, up until that last match, Hardy had the upper hand over Punk. And lest we forget, Hardy was leaving soon enough.

AHA, this is where you broke kayfabe. Knew it lol. Anyway, you're right. Punk wasn't made to look like Hardy's equal. However he was made to look better than Jeff. (I'm a big Hardy mark as well) I disagree that up until the cage match Jeff had the upper hand. Why? Because at SS they were in his element? At NOC he finally beat Punk to regain his title? He won by DQ at The Bash? To break from kayfabe if you will, Jeff was given the title then because the E wanted Jeff to stay, they thought it would help him sign an extension, unless I'm completely off in my thinking. Could be, it is 2:00 am here.

Whatever it is, I can tell you one thing; it’ll be in the mid card. Because Vince has realized Punk just isn’t a draw.

Maybe for now, in the upper mid-card. Especially with Batista and Taker in the Main Event. I just didn't see any legitimate reason for him to lose at HIAC, but that is just me.

LOL, I actually forgot Rude was a part of WCW, until I wrote this. I was initially going to put Vader, Sting and Luger. Anyway, yes, I agree. Luger needed them. Just like Punk needed Hardy, Taker, and anyone else he worked with. It’s never a one man show. Good workers need good workers. Punk and Luger both had plenty. And while Luger in the main event lasted, Punk… Well, didn’t.

Upper mid-card for now is where Punk is. When Punk was in the ME last year, he had no one at the time he was champion. Batista, we all criticize him for a reason, he couldn't work well with Punk, and Punk works well with almost everyone. Same goes for JBL. With Hardy, Punk rose up and looked extremely good. His feud with Taker could have worked well, he is nimble enough as a big guy to work well with. But more on that later.

Luger needed to be in the Main Event in the early '90s, without him, and the others you mentioned, WCW would've folded. He was the star then, during a time when WCW was barely able to float. Hmm...sounds a bit like the E with Bret and Shawn.

It’s simple. He had the best career, made the most money, drew in the most fans, won the world title for most of the time, and was seen as the main guy for much longer than Punk. He also has more classic moments, more heated feuds, and also more historical significance than Punk. Amongst other things.

But...but...but Punk won the same title 3 times. More reigns obviously equals better right? Oh no? Damn.

Besides, you say it yourself, Luger has the longest US Title reign ever. I would say he is more known for that by most people than by him being one of the top four, as you say, to keep WCW alive.

And you say more classic moments, heated feuds, and historical significance. When you look at the big time, yeah sure, he was great in his time in WCW. But WCW still wasn't as big as the WWE at the time. Not until he returned in '95 did they start competing, and it wasn't due to Luger at the start, to taking over in '96.

Exactly. And if WCW didn’t have that, the MNW may not have taken off as early. So that’s why you have Luger to thank

I'll thank Luger for showing the more important two jumpers what to do.

Well, let’s really look at that.

Hall- fledgling away at the mid card, though he was over as a mother fucker. Sees someone that was stuck in the mid card like him reach the main event in WCW, and make more money. Yeah, that wouldn’t influence him at all.

Eh, Hall did some great work, but you know Vince. But it still didn't happen for a while. If they talked about contract extentions or renewals on a daily basis by this time, then fine.

Nash- Just flat out pissed where he was going. Saw Luger jump. Realizes he has some options, takes a chance with WCW, and cashes in big.

But he was the champ. I would be happy if I would have a title for two more months of a year long reign. Greedy bastard lol. But yes, he saw WCW as an option, a lot of people did, hell Hogan saw one before Luger returned. Albeit he wasn't so hot then.

No, Sting was actually not aligned with anyone for a while. He was merely a man out for vengeance. He had not ties. Luger, meanwhile, was always loyal to WCW. Always. And never complained, he always carried WCW, especially in a time when the NWO looked unstoppable. Without Luger, WCW would have been buried.

Did I say he was truly aligned with anyone? I don't think I did, could be wrong. He felt betrayed by the roster. Again turning to the darker Sting we would see, messing with the nWo, and not dealing with the roster, or semi-dealing with the roster with him allowing some people the chance to attack him with his bat.

Why would he complain? He was big in WCW. You make it big you shouldn't complain. But nonetheless, he carried WCW because they knew he was with them. They didn't know about Sting, if they did, he would have been the one with the torch.

Dude, there’s a huge difference. Luger thought Brody was going to maim him. And the truth was, Brody was crazy enough to do it. Also, for every bit of unprofessional Luger was, Brody was too. Luger left the ring because he was frustrated with Brody’s unprofessional behavior. And again, this was Luger’s first time ever dealing with this, and he was new. Can you fault a guy when it’s someone like Brody, who could snap in an instant?

Even I know that Brody was fucked up. He may have been acting like a stiff ass, but come on. If what I see on Wiki is true, (I take with a grain of salt) well I'll just post it.

Brody later informed Luger personally that the stunt was not a personal issue between the two, but a business one between Brody and the office about pay and a booking dispute although Luger has said in a shoot interview that Brody said he was a face (good guy) in World Class in Texas and that he didn't want to mess that up by being a heel in Florida.

It was a dick move, but as they say, the show must go on. And if I recall from looking it up, that was also the Main Event. It still doesn't excuse it.

Well, it’s only speculation. Besides, Bret’s book doesn’t exactly see it that way. It’s possible that happened, but again, I was more doing it to stir conversation.

Meh, close enough. And of course Bret's book won't see it that way. Would you say you got a shot at the Heavyweight Title because the original plan got scrapped? If it happened like that of course.

Look, there’s just things you don’t do. Mouthing off to the Undertaker is one of them. How dumb can you be to do that?

But we don't know exactly what was said. I've been under the guise that Punk was wondering why he has to dress up, but Cena doesn't. The way he said it probably didn't come out like it should. But anyway, it happened, and now Punk is paying the consequences for it. I still say his run was prematurely ended.

You know what seems to be missing here, which I referenced to earlier? It’s so obvious, I’m shocked you missed it.

You missed answering what makes CM Punk better now. That is conspicuous by it’s absence. You threw around some hypothetical answers, and some theories. But that really does you jack squat in the argument. It doesn’t answer why Punk is a better draw, or a better wrestler, or a better figure in history. All it says is that he could, in due time, become one of the best. And I’ll admit, it is possible. But he has a long way to go.

And between you and me, he’s nowhere near close to Lex Luger.

Alright, I didn't answer what makes Punk better now. I suppose I shall now? For starters, mic work. I already showed two promos of that. I looked up some Luger promos, and honestly they were meh. His return on Nitro in Hogan's face, only shouting. I didn't really think that was a very good promo. Punk got people to hate him. He got booed in his home state, I know, I was at the show, and Chicago loves Punk, or did before.

He is one of the most versatile guys in the WWE. He can compete in technical matches with a very good mat game, he can brawl, he can do TLC and ladder matches. He can do it all. He had some horrible matches with Batista and JBL, yeah I brought them back up, but they still would look better than a horrible Luger match.

Also, I would say that I answered as to why he is better, to an extent. With Punk being straight edge, we know he abstains from all of the drugs, alcohol, etc. He is perfect for any kind of run, because he won't fail a drug test. He won't no show an event because he was too drunk or high to compete. He won't be sent home for being too drunk or high. He sets the standard for the PG era by being sXe, whether he is heel or not.

For his three years in the big league, he has made a name for himself, even with some of the people he has had to face, which isn't his fault. Luger had the Horsemen, Ron Simmons, Hogan, etc...and that was during WCW's down years and during their boom. Who did Punk have that they would let him feud with? The ones from ECW? Batista and JBL? Regal? Well that wasn't horrible either. Then Jeff was perfect for him, and both of them meshed well.

He has won the ECW Title, when it was sort of relevant, the IC Title, Tag titles, and is a three time World Champion. Becoming a Triple Crown winner. Three years and he won all of that? Plus Money in the Bank twice? I don't know about you, but him winning those in the time he has been with the main roster is damn impressive.

 

[NSL]

I'm not buying the argument that Luger was one of the few keeping WCW alive. Anyone who watched at that time could plainly see that it was Sting, and only Sting.

Sure, Vader and Luger (among others) were in the title picture, but Sting surely couldn't close a show on his own. Sting was WCW for a long time. His feuds are what kept the company afloat, and it was on his back that WCW remained until Hogan arrived, and Flair returned.

Luger was a bit player. Saying he was responsible for keeping the company alive is like saying that Hakushi was one of the few carrying WWE during their dark days. Sure, he feuded with Bret Hart, but he was there as filler. Probably twice as charismatic also.

 

[PEP3]

OK, so CH David asked me to take a peek at this thread again -- since he apparently caught me giving it a casual once-over a few days back -- and weigh in. Personally, I'd rather wait until both he and Tenta release the novels they wrote in paperback form, but that's not what was asked of me.

Before I go on to give my opinion on this back-and-forth, let me say this: Holy fucking shit! How long did it take you two to write these posts?!? Tenta, I had to stop in the middle of yours, take a shit, smoke two cigarettes and come back later to finish the final six chapters. WTF?!?

Anyway, I've reviewed the materials and arguments presented. My jury deliberated, and it took very little time to come to my conclusion. Before I lobby that verdict, I will say this: I'm not convinced the person named is, in fact, the greatest wrestler to ever come from Chicago. However, the question I am prepared to answer is "Who is greater between Lex Luger and CM Punk?", since that's what this argument has devolved into, at least in my eyes.

I'm glad that's the question, since it makes the answer simple:

:::rumroll, please::::

The winner of this bout is...

Lex Luger is the greater wrestler between these two. Period. There is no question of it at this point. However, it should be noted that "at this point" is the determining factor.

Historically speaking, Lex Luger had a career that extended a solid two decades, including multiple runs as WCW World Heavyweight Champion, NWA United States Champion, NWA/WCW World Tag Team Champion and a myriad of other well-established if less noteworthy titles. During the height of his popularity, he rivaled even Sting and Hulk Hogan as a face and people like Flair as a heel. Within a year of his debut, he was headlining early PPV shows, working incredible programs with Flair and helping to sell out arenas across the country. The man basically earned his nickname "The Total Package," because from a pro wrestling standpoint, that's exactly how the industry viewed him.

Luger was amazingly over out of the gates. Getting his start in Florida -- where he held most of the titles in one of the most historically-relevant regional promotions of all time -- his popularity quickly translated into high-profile stories with The Four Horsemen, feuds with Barry Windham and Flair and a string of championships. He played an integral role in the NWA upper-midcard/main event throughout the late '80s and early-'90s before jumping to WWF, where he became an even bigger star and fell just short of the WWF Title.

Luger's jump back to WCW, as seen on the now infamous "Nitro" where he appeared live while still being broadcast that same night on RAW, is the once-in-a-lifetime stuff of legend . . . and, honestly, is probably why performers have "no compete" clauses written into contracts to this day. His feud alongside Sting against the NWO made him integral to the company's success as well. From the start of his career to the very end, Luger was nothing but main event. He's 100-percent guaranteed Hall of Famer.

It should be noted, however, that all of that aside, I was not a fan of Luger's for the majority of his career. Regardless of how much he was pushed, how he was (Total) packaged or who he faced, there always felt like just the tiniest ingredient was missing, keeping him from ever feeling THAT superstar. You know the one, the one who is given the ball and allowed to run with it completely, unfettered and unleashed. The only time of his career that I truly, truly marked for Luger was when he was with The Horsemen, but that's because those guys could do no wrong in my eyes.

Being a fan or not aside, though, I can't argue with Luger's massive body of work. His list of opponents reads like a bona fide "Who's Who" of pro wrestling greats ranging over two decades. His mark in history is secured, and he managed to accomplish every last thing he probably ever could have wanted -- with the exception, possibly, of a decisive victory in his never-ending feud with Flair -- before retiring. His goes down for any pro wrestling fan of the '80s and '90s as one of the best, most instantly-recognizable faces in the industry.

But this doesn't mean Tenta should rejoice just yet. The significant reality of this debate is that unlike Luger, whose in-ring legacy is now permanently etched in stone and entirely complete, CM Punk is only just beginning to build his own legend. In a very brief time in the pro wrestling industry, he's already scored an ECW title, three World Heavyweight championships and more. He's certainly on-course to become a tremendous contender in his struggle to be named "Chicago's Greatest Professional Wrestler."

As it stands, Punk has all the tools, the track record to date and the long-term potential to exceed Luger. He's already amassed more World Titles than Luger has. However, as I said in the forum discussion about Mickie James -- where I compared Wendy Richter's two WWF Women's Title victories favorably to Mickie's current five based on the quality of competition and popularity of feuds -- quite often sheer number of reigns alone isn't the determining factor.

Just because Punk has managed three title wins in the last year doesn't make him the greatest from the Windy City. Instead, it makes him an extremely promising newcomer to the pro wrestling world with potential to become one of the all-time greats. Punk is off to a good start, but he's a long way from a 20 year career that includes some of the most long-lived, high-profile and memorable feuds of the last several decades. Should WWE maintain a consistent main event/upper-midcard program for Punk over the next several years, he stands a definite chance of catching up with Luger.

However, looking at this from a historical perspective -- and one has to when asked who the greatest wrestler in a city's history is, don't they? -- Luger has a lock on this one. No one can convincingly argue that Punk has managed to accomplish as much in the last four years as Luger did in four times as long. It's a simple impossibility!

Ask me again in ten years what Punk's impact is, and with the benefit of perspective, I might have a different answer. However, as of right now, time is on Luger's side.

Sorry, CH David. You wanted my verdict, and there it is. This win goes to Tenta.

***Special thanks to CH David for respecting me enough to actually seek out my opinion. Makes a guy feel good.***

 

[PEP3]

A quick addendum -- as stated in a PM to CH David:

My gut tells me that if WWE keeps Punk on a similar trajectory as he's been for the last couple years, he'll surpass Luger's legacy well before he ever reaches a comparable period of time in the ring. While CH David make valid points about all Punk's accomplished in such a short period of time, there's just no way I could choose a guy that could conceivably disappear tomorrow after only three years over a guy that stuck around for 20. It just doesn't make logical sense.

 

[Tenta]

Thank you for the kind words Tenta. Means a lot, especially coming from bud like you. Let's get back to it.

I only say it because I mean it. Anyway, let's get to resolving this whole matter, once and for all.

Don't forget, Lita is one of the best divas of all time. And the love of my life when I was younger. So hush lol.

I like me some Lita as much as the next guy, but one of the best ever? I highly disagree. She had a good moonsault, and that was just about it. I put her behind the likes of Jazz, Sherri Martel, and even Awesome Kong right now. However, soon we'll deal with Vince McMahon's revionist history, and Lita will be regarded as one of the best. Still, continue.

Anywho, sure Hiro Matsuda ,

You know, I knew I fucked this up. Nevertheless, I was too lazy to edit it. I deserve that one.

trained the greatest of the great in Hogan, Muta, and all of them. They are who they are for a reason. But he worked stiff as a motherfucker. Imagine if Hogan said fuck this and went elsewhere to be trained. Do we have Hogan? Eh, irrelevant to the debate so screw it.

Actually, according to legend, that is indeed what happened. According to reports, and Hogan, Matsuda actually broke Hogan's leg. When Hogan came back to learn more, Matsuda was impressed, and continued to train him.

As a matter of fact, the truth is, most trainers in Japan have a habit of being immensely strict on their pupils. I remember an account in which one strict instructor tied Leon White down, whipped him, and poured some material (Lemon juice?) on the wounds, because he was late. Typically, if you showed the sport disrespect, you get harsh punishment.

Now then, such a fact throws out some of your argument of Luger being at least too unprofessional. He was raised to respect the sport, and I don't understand why people believe he was a glory hound, and din't care for the business.

Now the resume sounds better for Luger's trainer. I would not and will not argue that. But I personally think it is more impressive that Punk had to go to a little podunk fucking school, learn from the men he did, and has made it this far. Besides, even if he wanted to, he couldn't get to Japan to train under Matsuda. He was pretty much broke as a joke, and Matsuda passed in '99. But yeah, your resume sounds better, I just find it more impressive for what Punk did.

so let me get this straight... You give more creedance to a guy who, admittedly, got training from lesser talent?

Besides that, we're not qualifying this into an argument of who's better. Such a story makes for e great Lifetime story, but a professional wrestler it makes not.

So working in ROH was Bryan Danielson not ready for the big time? Had to ask it, whether a smart ass or not. I don't believe he wasn't ready, more that Vince didn't want him until recently. Danielson is very popular among the indy constituants, or as Sid would say, God to the ROHbots.

Trust me, as much as we like dislike Vince, this much is true; If you're ready, you at least get a tryout with Vince. Even guys like AJ Styles, TNA lifers, get a tryout with the WWE. Vince knows talent when he sees it.

You don't give credit to the indies. I do though. Which is probably where we will keep this at. I'd say those were some damn good people he would face in IWA-MS though, regardless of if they were too low to be noticed by the E, in between jobs, or anything else.

But that's the thing, David. If I'm watching wrestlers, I want to watch professionals. Guys seasoned enough that I know what they're doing. Going through eighty billion tables does not make you a good wrestler, in spite of current beliefs.

Yeah but you love that promo. You even told me before. But I'll tell you this, Punk being able to even just go off on a tangent like that, shows what goes through his brain for a promo. Punk has a natural feel on the mic. His promos show it, especially now. That was just him going off topic yet still being a complete cocksmith.

What's a cocksmith?

Regardless, his promos, for the most part, seem more scripted than anything. The only one that led me to believe Punk was good with the stick was his NOC promo. Either than that, I just don't see much in saying things, "Stupid Bitch". Cursing in a promo is the typical way to a cheap pop, and I can't give much credit to Punk on this one.

Eh, Dave Meltzer is who he is. It was big for him to put that as a 5 star match, regardless of what people think of him. Personally I don't give a shit about him most days.

I don't either. And I personally think he has some type of thing against the WWE. He wants to look like the smarkiest of smarks. So of course he'll give a good match the rub, if it makes him look more smarky than the rest of us.

Trivia Question: Without Dave Meltzer, do we know of that match?

However, I never said Flair carried him. I said people watched to see Flair lose, but not that he carried him, nor the feud. It takes two to tango. Flair and Luger worked extremely well together, I am not saying they didn't. And yes, I didn't realize I skipped the Flair - Luger draws. One point Tenta. (Dick )

We're keeping score?

But remember, they did those routinely back then. It was a great way for people to not look weak. Plus, and I don't know if this hurts or harms me, but people didn't want that feud to end.

Yeah, that actually hurts you. Wouldn't admit to that, David. Really wouldn't.

Again, speculation, as I was barely a twinkle in father's eyes when it started. Would it be best to see Luger win and beat Flair cleanly to keep the title, as they wouldn't just hand out titles like they do now. Again, they were routine, and always great back then when people cared about it as sport, not entertainment like now. Hell, we never see a draw anymore. I personally think it would be refreshing now...off topic again.

A bit, but you're on to something. I think I can make this a thread somewhere. You will get credit.

Again, I only put it in there as background. He didn't just shoot into WWE or anything. Actually, ECW was a fairly credible show to start out in 2006 when Punk came up. Still had the Originals with some new people mixed in as well.

Well.... Let's consider the originals:

Raven- Nope
RVD- Yeah, he was there
Sandman- You mean to tell me he was even a fraction of himself when he came to Vince's ECW?
Sabu-Same can be said, in spite of how much I love Sabu.
Taz- Voice in the booth. And even you can tell how much he felt ECW was watered down, at this point
Tommy- Mid Card

And everyone else? Why, they were all pretty much in the lower card, making way for guys like Lashley and Hardcore Holly. This was nowhere near the ECW we all love, nor was it even a fraction. It was merely Vince forcing ECW originals to have "Vince's type of match." And no one wanted to see that.

A solid start against C.W. Anderson, Stevie Richards, and a drop off with Shannon Moore.

So he wrestled....

CW Anderson- I was always a mark for him. But without Steve Corino, he was nothing. And Vince was never going to use him.

Stevie Richards- the most jobtastic jobber. Even Lee will agree with me on that.

Shannon Moore- The less said about this feud, the better.

Still failing to see Punk as a draw here. And while Punk flounders to be a draw, Luger was in the midst of a US Title reign by this point.

But then he was doing well, was gaining more fans for being more widely recognized, it showed at Survivor Series when he teamed with DX, cheered well. But that could have just been a rub. I don't know.

No, I'll give him credit; he showed up in a smarky town, and took a big pop. Because, well, he wasn't DX. He was a different face in the mixture. So of course many of the smarks would latch onto him.

523 days without a loss? I don't know if I buy that completely, without losing the title for sure, but without a loss? Again, I am a young, probably naive kid, but if he defended that title 523 days in a row, well then I'll kiss you. Yeah I said it. But you get my point. I realize they worked like 340 shots a year back then, I'm guessing, but fuck 523 title defenses and not one loss? He had to have an off day or loss by opponents on the ropes or something man.

A loss by DQ? Perhaps. Actually, probably, seeing as he was a heel during this run. Nevertheless, he always got the upper hand on each face he wrestled. Simmons, Pillman, Hayes. They were always the same.

Actually, in an ironic twist, WCW Held Starrcade that year with an iron man tournament. It included Flair, Sting, Muta, and Luger. Lex was the only wrestler to go undefeated in that tournament. The only one. He beat Muta, Sting, and wrestled Flair to a time limit draw. He was the only one to go without a loss.

Of course, that's loss on the bad addition of Sting to the Four Horsemen. But that's neither here nor there.

I wish for a million dollars Tents, or a night with Trish Status and Lita. But for now we have what we have. I did that because there are a bunch of people, and guests who read these, don't know what Punk did back then, the hard work and dedication he has to make it to where he is now. I can't please you can I? And that can be answered however you choose lol.

Well, I am easy to please. Still, again, this is what I feel is the important part of his career. You can't assume everyone knows what you're discussing.

You know what it tells me bud, his indy career was great, he spent 7 years there, and 3 with the big company. You can't always expect success overnight. He still has had success, maybe not to your standards, but others he has exceeded their expectations.

Mostly because people expected very little of the guy. And who could blame them? Scrawny, bit on the short side. There's a lot to be desired from Punk from a physical standpoint. Still, the questions remains, why did he stay so long there? It wasn't a personal choice, most people just thought he didn't have what it took.

I'll get into his big belt reigns later. For now, ECW. Morrison was finding himself, but he was still fantastic in the ring.

I personally liked him better as Johnny Nitro by this point.

He was garnering enough heat, and that was a pretty good feud going. But, since you break kayfabe a bit later on, I'll do it now. The main plan for ECW, which would have had some credibility, was for Chris Benoit (RIP)to win the title, right? Most likely feuding with Punk. But his shit happened, shoved in Nitro, and we got a pretty good feud for two youngsters finding their legs in the singles competition.

Again, there's no way to prove that true. You bring me an article that says that the plans were for a Benoit-Punk feud.

Also, I find it hard to believe, considering both men were faces. If anything, it probably would have been a Burke-Benoit feud, seeing as how they were working a program.

Miz was still trying to get his balls out of his throat at this time. He was a decent performer at best back then, nowhere near where he is now. But it was decent.

I wouldn't say decent. More like forced, awkward, and flat out annoying. Miz was never good until he was matched with Morrison.

I saw nothing when it came to Elijah Burke. He could have been Shelton Benjamin for all I care. I hear he is talented in the ring. Couldn't get over with the big crowds.

I'd agree.

Big Daddy V, no nothing needs to be said. I'll say this anyway though, he was a monster, and Punk still came out on top. I feel dumber having actually typed something for BDV.

Yes. And Lex has taken down bigger, and better monsters.

Tell me, what was a better feud: Punk/BDV, or Luger/Yoko. bThis shouldn't be hard, at all. Or even Luger/Giant in WCW.

Yet the past knew nothing of the future when it comes to Chavo. Back then he was a viable contender for the ECW Title. Plus he only won with help from Edge, due to La Familia. But now he is a jobber because Vince wants him to be. It happens.

Oh I could tell you plenty from the past looking at just the past. WCW had this guy ride a wooden horse to get over. He was always treated as a jobber, before the WWE inexplicably made him ECW Champion. They then rectified their mistake at Wrestlemania, having Kane squash him.

It wasn't his time in the Main Event. It was a start, he was thrust in there, absolutely wasting any possible build for anything, all because they couldn't think of a good way for Edge to lose the title to keep it on Raw.

I'm sorry, but any time you're holding the main belt, you're in the main event. No excuses. You either perform, or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose when you're saddled with the main strap.

Plus, how could he be considered credible at all when his first two opponents were Batista and JBL?

Ever heard of David/Goliath? Bret Hart worked this kind of program for every big guy he wrestled. Diesel, Undertaker, Yoko, even Razor Ramon. It's not hard to get over in a David/Goliath feud. Shawn Michaels made a career out of it. You let the big heel beat down on you, you come back, and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Not that hard at all, actually. Ifg anything, WWE should have had JBL and Batista doing the work in those feuds. And to some extent, they kinda did.

Compared to him they were massive. He had no chance to legitimately go over and them not look weak, at least not as a face, and there was no way Punk could make a legit turn then.

It's not really looking weak to get beat up by someone bigger. Actually, it's rather expected. What's not expected is when you get the win. And doing that should have propelled Punk.

Winning MITB two years in a row is bad? Shit I guess I have been misconstruing the concept for a while then.

Not bad; just a crapshoot. A legitimate crapshoot. MITB is nothing more than the WWE gambling, and hoping they strike it big. It's them admitting they need new stars, and since they don't have time to build up legitimate feuds, let's throw all these guys in there with a ladder, and entertain. Sometimes it works (RVD, and Edge), sometimes it doesn't work (Kennedy, and I'd argue Punk.)

Now, before you flip out, let me qualify what I mean by "working". To me, working includes a push to the main event, followed by an extended stay at the top of the card. That was something that worked for RVD and Edge. "Not working" means a push to the main event, followed by a slow downwards push back into the midcard. In this case, we have evidence of Ken Kennedy, and CM Punk.

AHA, this is where you broke kayfabe. Knew it lol. Anyway, you're right. Punk wasn't made to look like Hardy's equal. However he was made to look better than Jeff. (I'm a big Hardy mark as well) I disagree that up until the cage match Jeff had the upper hand. Why? Because at SS they were in his element? At NOC he finally beat Punk to regain his title? He won by DQ at The Bash? To break from kayfabe if you will, Jeff was given the title then because the E wanted Jeff to stay, they thought it would help him sign an extension, unless I'm completely off in my thinking. Could be, it is 2:00 am here.

No, it's correct. But consider this... What makes you so sure that if Hardy stayed, Punk would have still gotten the belt?

Maybe for now, in the upper mid-card. Especially with Batista and Taker in the Main Event. I just didn't see any legitimate reason for him to lose at HIAC, but that is just me.

Well, that's a booking issue, and typically I'd agree. However, I'm letting the WWE see where they take this.

Upper mid-card for now is where Punk is.

So you admit that, indeed, Punk's push with the MITB failed, once again?

When Punk was in the ME last year, he had no one at the time he was champion. Batista, we all criticize him for a reason, he couldn't work well with Punk, and Punk works well with almost everyone.

And while we criticize him, there's one thing no one can deny... He is a main event draw, and that he's a big enough name to main event.

Same goes for JBL.

Exaclty. He's a main event draw.

With Hardy, Punk rose up and looked extremely good.

Because Hardy's a lifetime midcarder.

His feud with Taker could have worked well, he is nimble enough as a big guy to work well with. But more on that later.

I'll wait for you to get there.

Luger needed to be in the Main Event in the early '90s, without him, and the others you mentioned, WCW would've folded. He was the star then, during a time when WCW was barely able to float. Hmm...sounds a bit like the E with Bret and Shawn.

It does. And you consider them legends, no? Or even more, better than Punk.

But...but...but Punk won the same title 3 times. More reigns obviously equals better right? Oh no? Damn.

I'm glad you said it for me.

Besides, you say it yourself, Luger has the longest US Title reign ever. I would say he is more known for that by most people than by him being one of the top four, as you say, to keep WCW alive.

And I'd say, if anything, I'd say he's remembered for all of the things I've mentioned, and being a HOF Candidate. Something Punk isn't now.

And you say more classic moments, heated feuds, and historical significance. When you look at the big time, yeah sure, he was great in his time in WCW. But WCW still wasn't as big as the WWE at the time. Not until he returned in '95 did they start competing, and it wasn't due to Luger at the start, to taking over in '96.

It was still a wrestling audience with a burgeoning audience that would grow with Luger.

I'll thank Luger for showing the more important two jumpers what to do.

Well, let’s really look at that.



Eh, Hall did some great work, but you know Vince. But it still didn't happen for a while. If they talked about contract extentions or renewals on a daily basis by this time, then fine.



But he was the champ. I would be happy if I would have a title for two more months of a year long reign. Greedy bastard lol. But yes, he saw WCW as an option, a lot of people did, hell Hogan saw one before Luger returned. Albeit he wasn't so hot then.

I'm glad you see it my way.

Did I say he was truly aligned with anyone? I don't think I did, could be wrong. He felt betrayed by the roster. Again turning to the darker Sting we would see, messing with the nWo, and not dealing with the roster, or semi-dealing with the roster with him allowing some people the chance to attack him with his bat.

And that makes him not an entity of WCW. Thus, Luger carried the WCW banner, and carried it well.

Even I know that Brody was fucked up. He may have been acting like a stiff ass, but come on. If what I see on Wiki is true, (I take with a grain of salt) well I'll just post it.

It was a dick move, but as they say, the show must go on. And if I recall from looking it up, that was also the Main Event. It still doesn't excuse it.

I'm not trying to excuse it. what I'm saying is that it was one isolated incident, against a man with a history for being really wild. And let's all watch the match, to try to find who's really at fault here:

[YOUTUBE]epmXA8w0Qjo[/YOUTUBE]

Meh, close enough. And of course Bret's book won't see it that way. Would you say you got a shot at the Heavyweight Title because the original plan got scrapped? If it happened like that of course.

Well, no one has come out and said Bret is wrong, at least yet...

But we don't know exactly what was said. I've been under the guise that Punk was wondering why he has to dress up, but Cena doesn't. The way he said it probably didn't come out like it should. But anyway, it happened, and now Punk is paying the consequences for it. I still say his run was prematurely ended.

As it should have been.

Alright, I didn't answer what makes Punk better now. I suppose I shall now? For starters, mic work. I already showed two promos of that. I looked up some Luger promos, and honestly they were meh. His return on Nitro in Hogan's face, only shouting. I didn't really think that was a very good promo. Punk got people to hate him. He got booed in his home state, I know, I was at the show, and Chicago loves Punk, or did before.

We're judging apples and oranges here. While Punk has to have good promos, Luger simply doesn't. His build gives him all the credibility he'll ever need. So again, the importance of promos, in this case, is diminished for Luger.

He is one of the most versatile guys in the WWE. He can compete in technical matches with a very good mat game, he can brawl, he can do TLC and ladder matches. He can do it all. He had some horrible matches with Batista and JBL, yeah I brought them back up, but they still would look better than a horrible Luger match.

Go find me a "Horrible" Luger match, and we'll dissect it. I guarantee you, it beats the worst of Punk's work.

Also, I would say that I answered as to why he is better, to an extent. With Punk being straight edge, we know he abstains from all of the drugs, alcohol, etc. He is perfect for any kind of run, because he won't fail a drug test. He won't no show an event because he was too drunk or high to compete. He won't be sent home for being too drunk or high. He sets the standard for the PG era by being sXe, whether he is heel or not.

So he has a good gimmick, is what we boil it down to?

Look, say what you will, but sXe just doesn't draw by itself. And Punk has clearly shown that.

For his three years in the big league, he has made a name for himself, even with some of the people he has had to face, which isn't his fault. Luger had the Horsemen, Ron Simmons, Hogan, etc...and that was during WCW's down years and during their boom. Who did Punk have that they would let him feud with? The ones from ECW? Batista and JBL? Regal? Well that wasn't horrible either. Then Jeff was perfect for him, and both of them meshed well.

Again, you work with what you got. And Luger flat out drew more. Plain and simple.

He has won the ECW Title, when it was sort of relevant, the IC Title, Tag titles, and is a three time World Champion. Becoming a Triple Crown winner. Three years and he won all of that? Plus Money in the Bank twice? I don't know about you, but him winning those in the time he has been with the main roster is damn impressive.

Perhaps. More impressive than Luger's resume? I doubt it. I really doubt it.

 

[CH David]

I only say it because I mean it. Anyway, let's get to resolving this whole matter, once and for all.

Tenta is truly greatness. Plus the best part about debates like this is that you have to actually do research, which helps you become a better poster in general. This would be epic if we had this in the Debator's League wouldn't it?But, from everything I have seen, he doesn't truly touch upon something. In his own words, something is conspicuously missing. I'll get to that later.

I like me some Lita as much as the next guy, but one of the best ever? I highly disagree. She had a good moonsault, and that was just about it. I put her behind the likes of Jazz, Sherri Martel, and even Awesome Kong right now. However, soon we'll deal with Vince McMahon's revionist history, and Lita will be regarded as one of the best. Still, continue.

Definitely top 10 in WWE. Still, hush lol.

You know, I knew I fucked this up. Nevertheless, I was too lazy to edit it. I deserve that one.

In the words of Rod Farva, "Ho ho ho, shit. I got you good you fucker!!!"

Actually, according to legend, that is indeed what happened. According to reports, and Hogan, Matsuda actually broke Hogan's leg. When Hogan came back to learn more, Matsuda was impressed, and continued to train him.

As a matter of fact, the truth is, most trainers in Japan have a habit of being immensely strict on their pupils. I remember an account in which one strict instructor tied Leon White down, whipped him, and poured some material (Lemon juice?) on the wounds, because he was late. Typically, if you showed the sport disrespect, you get harsh punishment.

I recall reading about that as well. But what I meant about Hogan, what if with the broken leg, he stayed away from Matsuda, or even stayed away from becoming a professional wrestler? Eh, he didn't, became the greatest ever. Nuff said.

Japanese people don't fuck around man. I mean this in a positive light and in no disrespect, but they are fucking crazy. Again, meaning in a positive light.

Now then, such a fact throws out some of your argument of Luger being at least too unprofessional. He was raised to respect the sport, and I don't understand why people believe he was a glory hound, and din't care for the business.

The only unprofessional portion of my argument is that he walked out on a match with a batshit crazy mofo who got stabbed to death later on in life. I don't call him a glory hound or anything. I know sure as shit I haven't. Please don't put words into my mouth Tents.

so let me get this straight... You give more creedance to a guy who, admittedly, got training from lesser talent?

I say it is more impressive, yes. Why? Well if you become a big star with the help of a great trainer like Matsuda, it is pretty much expected. If you become a big star with the help of someone of "lesser talent", you have gone that extra mile or farther that was needed.

Besides that, we're not qualifying this into an argument of who's better. Such a story makes for e great Lifetime story, but a professional wrestler it makes not.

Lifetime story? Are you talking the channel lifetime? I have a great Jim Gaffigan joke if it is. Although maybe offensive to someone who doesn't understand it in context. Tangent, I do that as you have probably noticed.

And we aren't qualifying who is better? Then why are we having a debate about the best to be billed from Chicago? Granted it will probably just get down to semantics and the fact that Punk is still going and Luger is done.

Trust me, as much as we like dislike Vince, this much is true; If you're ready, you at least get a tryout with Vince. Even guys like AJ Styles, TNA lifers, get a tryout with the WWE. Vince knows talent when he sees it.

So Punk wasn't ready until 2005 to get signed. Eh, it happens. Vince is also biased to who he pushes and what not. He will do it if forced.

But that's the thing, David. If I'm watching wrestlers, I want to watch professionals. Guys seasoned enough that I know what they're doing. Going through eighty billion tables does not make you a good wrestler, in spite of current beliefs.

Technically Tenta, you want to watch the best of the best in America. Unless you watch Japanese wrestling as well, I don't know. I do it too, although I have been slacking on my Smackdown, damn life I have. Even in small promotions like IWA or even a less small ROH, they are still professional wrestlers, just not "big time" enough for you.

What's a cocksmith?

Douchebag, fucktard, asshole, any obsceneties are good. I forget where I heard it, but it sounded good at the time.

Regardless, his promos, for the most part, seem more scripted than anything. The only one that led me to believe Punk was good with the stick was his NOC promo. Either than that, I just don't see much in saying things, "Stupid Bitch". Cursing in a promo is the typical way to a cheap pop, and I can't give much credit to Punk on this one.

Well what about his promo the week after he retired Jeff? I put that one up too. That was a damn fine promo. To me, Punk's promos flow better than others I hear. You look at Randy Orton, those sound scripted. The Diva's promos, if they get one every other month, sound scripted. I don't get the feeling his are scripted. I think Vince would trust him well enough to let him go out and speak what comes to mind, with the restriction of refraining from going at the audience.

I don't either. And I personally think he has some type of thing against the WWE. He wants to look like the smarkiest of smarks. So of course he'll give a good match the rub, if it makes him look more smarky than the rest of us.

Trivia Question: Without Dave Meltzer, do we know of that match?

He is a douche, we know it, I'll answer your trivia question, then I'll move on.

I would know of it, I watched it online before finding out he gave it 5 stars. I personally found it great, along with countless other matches in the "not important to Tenta" promotions.

We're keeping score?

Nah, just felt like awarding you a point for no reason. I'm nice enough to do that.

Yeah, that actually hurts you. Wouldn't admit to that, David. Really wouldn't.

Well I don't know right now if it does. Who wants a feud to end prematurely? They did that with Sheamus and Shelton and people started wondering, "what the fuck is going on?"

A bit, but you're on to something. I think I can make this a thread somewhere. You will get credit.

AHA. Yeah I knew I was on to something. It is a great way to keep feuds going. Tying into above, hopefully if you quote this part, you add to my above as well, this feud would have ended prematurely if Flair or Luger won cleanly. There was no way that Luger would drop the belt if he won, and no way he could prove himself a viable contender over others, such as Sting for example if he was around at that time.

I also thought about making a thread like that, but you would probably make it better.

Well.... Let's consider the originals:

Yes, let's.

Raven- Nope

Doubtful he would come back anytime soon. Vince treated him like shit.

RVD- Yeah, he was there

And just a few months previous to Punk coming to the roster was a double champion, both ECW and WWE.

Sandman- You mean to tell me he was even a fraction of himself when he came to Vince's ECW?

Unfortunately. It was watered down, but still, they were there and made it entertaining to start.

Sabu-Same can be said, in spite of how much I love Sabu.

Again, same as Sandman.

Taz- Voice in the booth. And even you can tell how much he felt ECW was watered down, at this point

Of course it was watered down. Vince was never going to allow it to become the ultraviolent spectacle that it once was. Which is unfortunate, because looking back it was awesome.

Tommy- Mid Card

Tommy is Tommy. I don't care if he was a jobber to the stars in Original ECW, or a jobber to the future in ECW now. Still puts on a great show, and doesn't look like shit.

And everyone else? Why, they were all pretty much in the lower card, making way for guys like Lashley and Hardcore Holly. This was nowhere near the ECW we all love, nor was it even a fraction. It was merely Vince forcing ECW originals to have "Vince's type of match." And no one wanted to see that.

I know it wasn't like the Original. Just that it was semi-credible with the stars on the show. We all knew it wouldn't be like it used to. Vince is too prideful to allow it.

So he wrestled....

CW Anderson- I was always a mark for him. But without Steve Corino, he was nothing. And Vince was never going to use him.

Stevie Richards- the most jobtastic jobber. Even Lee will agree with me on that.

Shannon Moore- The less said about this feud, the better.

Still failing to see Punk as a draw here. And while Punk flounders to be a draw, Luger was in the midst of a US Title reign by this point.

Luger was NWA US Champion by his 3rd month? Fuck man, they pushed him like the dickens. But they may have just been for show, but they were/are solid workers, no?

No, I'll give him credit; he showed up in a smarky town, and took a big pop. Because, well, he wasn't DX. He was a different face in the mixture. So of course many of the smarks would latch onto him.

Don't forget, it was in Philly, and he made his name huge in ROH. So the fans knew him. Not just smarks man. Even marks.

A loss by DQ? Perhaps. Actually, probably, seeing as he was a heel during this run. Nevertheless, he always got the upper hand on each face he wrestled. Simmons, Pillman, Hayes. They were always the same.

Which is my point. You said 523 days without a loss. I know the 523 without a title loss, but without a DQ loss or something seems too farfetched for me. Even if they billed Andre to be undefeated for what, 15 years I think? But you get my point. Oh, and I like how he was feuding for the NWA Heavyweight Title at the same time, granted it was due to Sting being injured. I would say part of that helped his run, what about 6 or 7 months was it? It was usually until mid 1990 if I read that correctly.

Actually, in an ironic twist, WCW Held Starrcade that year with an iron man tournament. It included Flair, Sting, Muta, and Luger. Lex was the only wrestler to go undefeated in that tournament. The only one. He beat Muta, Sting, and wrestled Flair to a time limit draw. He was the only one to go without a loss.

Of course, that's loss on the bad addition of Sting to the Four Horsemen. But that's neither here nor there.

Yeah, I recall reading on that as well. He may have been undefeated, but Sting had more points. Seems they felt Sting would be better. Again, speculation. Impressive from Luger nonetheless.

Mostly because people expected very little of the guy. And who could blame them? Scrawny, bit on the short side. There's a lot to be desired from Punk from a physical standpoint. Still, the questions remains, why did he stay so long there? It wasn't a personal choice, most people just thought he didn't have what it took.

Or, was it because Vince didn't like his look? We know Vince loves the big guys. He pushed the Great Khali for fucks sake. Maybe he realized he need a few guys who are smaller but could actually put on an entertaining match that didn't consist of throwing opponents around a ring and punches the entire time.

I personally liked him better as Johnny Nitro by this point.

As did I, but that is neither here nor there. We got a good feud, and I don't even see you denying that for where they were in the business.

Again, there's no way to prove that true. You bring me an article that says that the plans were for a Benoit-Punk feud.

Also, I find it hard to believe, considering both men were faces. If anything, it probably would have been a Burke-Benoit feud, seeing as how they were working a program.

Now you make a good point, but what would be the benefit of Burke-Benoit? I could see it more than Punk - Benoit, but Burke wasn't getting over any time soon. Hell he couldn't get over with the New Breed, and he was the leader. He had no chance.

Yes. And Lex has taken down bigger, and better monsters.

Tell me, what was a better feud: Punk/BDV, or Luger/Yoko. bThis shouldn't be hard, at all. Or even Luger/Giant in WCW.

Well it was USA vs. Foreign pretty much. He was basically the US representative to go after Yoko right? Of course that would be a better feud. Theoretically Punk could go after Kofi for being from Ghana, and it could be good. You get US vs. Canada or England or anything, it will be a good feud. Foreign feuds cause controversy, which creates cash. Simple as that.

Oh I could tell you plenty from the past looking at just the past. WCW had this guy ride a wooden horse to get over. He was always treated as a jobber, before the WWE inexplicably made him ECW Champion. They then rectified their mistake at Wrestlemania, having Kane squash him.

It is Chavo. I didn't feel like looking his time in WCW up. People blow their loads about how great a wrestler he is, he just doesn't get to show it. He could have been a good mid-carder/cruiserweight if WWE kept it, but they didn't, and he is relegated to crap.

I'm sorry, but any time you're holding the main belt, you're in the main event. No excuses. You either perform, or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose when you're saddled with the main strap.

Don't be sorry. I'm not saying he wasn't in the Main Event. I was saying he wasn't ready. Same with Jericho when he won the Undisputed Championship, (sorry IC). There are times when you are ready for the push, and times you are rushed. Punk was rushed, and they used it as a litmus test.

Ever heard of David/Goliath? Bret Hart worked this kind of program for every big guy he wrestled. Diesel, Undertaker, Yoko, even Razor Ramon. It's not hard to get over in a David/Goliath feud. Shawn Michaels made a career out of it. You let the big heel beat down on you, you come back, and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Not that hard at all, actually. Ifg anything, WWE should have had JBL and Batista doing the work in those feuds. And to some extent, they kinda did.

You really just asked a David, if he ever heard of David vs. Goliath? I would hear about it all the time when I was young. Love it.

It is all hindsight, and turned into a clusterfuck because they hadn't thought this part through. Orton was still out if I recall correctly, which would have been tremendous. But Batista was face vs. face. Can't have him completely maul Punk like he did recently with Rey Mysterio. And JBL, well he was all jiggly around the ring and I honestly can't remember that for the life of me. I suck, I know.

It's not really looking weak to get beat up by someone bigger. Actually, it's rather expected. What's not expected is when you get the win. And doing that should have propelled Punk.

To go over legitimately? I don't know if Punk could pick up Batista or JBL for the GTS. Maybe could get them down for the Anaconda Vice, but I'm not sure on the GTS, which is what Punk had used more often than not.

The original effect of Punk winning over Edge wore off. I'll blame this on Punk and writing, he couldn't keep his stability up there. Plus wasn't the WWE Title relegated to second string that summer? I forget what the main feud was.

Not bad; just a crapshoot. A legitimate crapshoot. MITB is nothing more than the WWE gambling, and hoping they strike it big. It's them admitting they need new stars, and since they don't have time to build up legitimate feuds, let's throw all these guys in there with a ladder, and entertain. Sometimes it works (RVD, and Edge), sometimes it doesn't work (Kennedy, and I'd argue Punk.)

Now, before you flip out, let me qualify what I mean by "working". To me, working includes a push to the main event, followed by an extended stay at the top of the card. That was something that worked for RVD and Edge. "Not working" means a push to the main event, followed by a slow downwards push back into the midcard. In this case, we have evidence of Ken Kennedy, and CM Punk.

What is extended for you? I'm going to guess six months or longer. With Punk's second MITB win, I think it worked well. He won at Extreme Rules, I believe was May. And stayed in the main event until HIAC/Bragging Rights. Right there is seven months. He was brought back down as punishment. We can argue whether he should have had it taken off or not, won't solve anything. Plus I truly think the WWE dropped the ball with not using the Punk vs. Matt Hardy feud after he made Jeff retire. Again, speculation on my part.

No, it's correct. But consider this... What makes you so sure that if Hardy stayed, Punk would have still gotten the belt?

I'm not saying he would have gotten the belt. The point is, the feud could have gone on a lot longer if Jeff stayed. It was the hottest of the summer. It worked amazingly.

Well, that's a booking issue, and typically I'd agree. However, I'm letting the WWE see where they take this.

You only say that for this debate don't you? Probably not. Oh well.

So you admit that, indeed, Punk's push with the MITB failed, once again?

I wouldn't call it a failure. He did great, and along with it he made a tremendous heel turn. He just fucked up backstage, and also it was against Taker. Probably quite a few of us figured Taker would go over.

And while we criticize him, there's one thing no one can deny... He is a main event draw, and that he's a big enough name to main event.

Exaclty. He's a main event draw.

Batista is big enough to draw. It helps getting the rub from Triple H and Taker. Not the point though.

JBL was good for the hate he was able to garner. Not difficult for him to do, remember the Nazi walk he did? So sure, people wanted to seem him lose.

Because Hardy's a lifetime midcarder.

Yet he was undoubtedly over with the fans. Right now, it is 2:30, I can't think of anyone other than Jeff to basically cause the wins he got due to popularity. Plus, and I realize you may say mid-card is mid-card, but still, he was upper mid-card at worst.

It does. And you consider them legends, no? Or even more, better than Punk.

HBK and Bret, legends and better? Well duh. To think otherwise is foolish. But they were better in a time that WWE was struggling, and only into the start of the Attitude Era. Same with Luger, he was the main draw in a struggling WCW, and was part of the group going up against the main draw in the nWo.

And I'd say, if anything, I'd say he's remembered for all of the things I've mentioned, and being a HOF Candidate. Something Punk isn't now.

If Punk were a HOF Candidate right now, I would call him the best professional wrestler of all time. Mostly due to him being an active wrestler. But he isn't so Luger has the HOF Candidacy edge now, which to be honest doesn't mean much in the scheme of things right now. Once he makes it sure, but not right now.

It was still a wrestling audience with a burgeoning audience that would grow with Luger.

And ROH wasn't a burgeoning audience that didn't grow with Punk?

I'm glad you see it my way.

Only that WCW was a viable option. Not that seeing Luger do it was the best idea the two of them could concoct.

And that makes him not an entity of WCW. Thus, Luger carried the WCW banner, and carried it well.

So by default, Luger would carry the WCW banner?

I'm not trying to excuse it. what I'm saying is that it was one isolated incident, against a man with a history for being really wild. And let's all watch the match, to try to find who's really at fault here:

[YOUTUBE]epmXA8w0Qjo[/YOUTUBE]

At work I can't watch the video, so I'll comment that when I get home.

Well, no one has come out and said Bret is wrong, at least yet...

Yet even in your HOF Candidacy post, you mention he fucked up. I didn't notice that til last night when I was reading everything due to boredom. Was that stirring the pot as well?

As it should have been.

Others, such as our buddy X, beg to differ. But that isn't the point is it?

We're judging apples and oranges here. While Punk has to have good promos, Luger simply doesn't. His build gives him all the credibility he'll ever need. So again, the importance of promos, in this case, is diminished for Luger.

And what about Hogan? Savage? They had a great build and could go give good promos. I find that Luger shouldn't be an exception.

Go find me a "Horrible" Luger match, and we'll dissect it. I guarantee you, it beats the worst of Punk's work.

Can't at work, and too lazy. You do it and prove me wrong.

So he has a good gimmick, is what we boil it down to?

Look, say what you will, but sXe just doesn't draw by itself. And Punk has clearly shown that.

You are right, but we are handicapping Punk by just saying sXe. If you ever wanted to, in ROH and others, he would go after people by saying he was better than them. Doing all sorts of promos and matches of the sort.

Again, you work with what you got. And Luger flat out drew more. Plain and simple.

He worked with better, so yeah, drawing more wouldn't be that difficult.

Perhaps. More impressive than Luger's resume? I doubt it. I really doubt it.

His entire resume? No. In 3 years, it could be argued yes. But it is two different eras as well.

Glad that is out of the way. No it is my turn to point out something conspicuously missing from any of your posts, not including your HOF Candidacy portion. You have not touched upon this, which is kind of funny.

What you fail to mention, is that Luger was a flop in the WWF during his time. He sucked. His best moments were going after Yoko and other non Americans. He was the second coming of the American Hero, after Hogan left. Like I say above, the reason his feud with Yoko was a seeming success, is because it was basically US vs. Japan. I said it before, US vs. any other country will draw. Not very impressive though for that time frame, since we had had the Hart Foundation in that time period too, maybe a little before but still a valid point. He couldn't win the big title in WWF. Hell he couldn't win any title in the WWF. He along with Davey Boy Smith couldn't win the tag titles.

I don't care if you discredit the indy promotions or not. Punk has been at the top of each promotion he has been in, other than TNA in which he was there for a short time. IWA-MS, ROH, WWE, he has been at the top of them all. In his two companies, I'm considering the NWA and WCW together, Luger could only master one.

 

[The Brain]

I know I'm a little late on this thread, but I just noticed it. I admit that I only glanced at the posts because, well honestly they're pretty damn long. When I clicked on this I wasn't expecting to see such detailed posts. Anyway being from Chicago myself I feel like I have to weigh in. Forget both Luger and Punk. My choice is the Road Warriors. They are considered by so many people to be the greatest tag team of all time. They were on top for 15 years. They held the tag titles in the AWA, NWA/WCW, and the WWF. This was all during these companies prime years; not like a bogus WCW reign out of the Dudleys. To me the Road Warriors are the obvious choice.

I apologize if they were mentioned before. As I mentioned I just glanced over the posts as I didn't plan on spending a lot of time on this thread when I clicked on it. It looked like it was all about Luger and Punk and I felt the Road Warriors deserved to be mentioned.