The Best American Midcard Title Ever

[Mugatunow]

You know, when I did the best World Title ever thread, I thought about doing this one first, but opted for the obvious. So now i think I will attempt to do this one as well. What is the best midcard title ever. In all honesty, I believe it is the U.S. title. There have been so many great wrestlers that have been the U.S. champ. Ric flair, the Sheik, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Harley race, Booker T, the list goes on and on. Many great matches from around the world, and has that long history like the NWA World Title. So, what do you think is the greatest midcard title ever?

 

[MattButcher]

I had to vote for the Intercontinental Championship. As a kid watching WWF stuff and there was always something cool about the Intercontinental Champ. You kind of knew even as a kid that certain guys would be in contention for the Heavyweight Championship (i.e. Hogan) while other guys you thought were cool might not get there like Tito Santana or Steamboat.

The other cool thing about the IC belt was that heels could win it. So when Honky Tonk or Rick Rude were carrying the belt, you just couldn't wait for someone to take that belt from them. The Ultimate WAH-ior ended both of those title runs and that kind of heat really helped get his character over.

I admit sitting out on WWE product for a good chunk of the 90's so if there were any booking tragedies I missed out on, I have no excuses for them. In this decade, I feel as though the belt has been doing its job of getting younger talent over and giving respect to those who are top of the middle/bottom of the top performers. Also it still looks cool.

 

[MattMoses]

I thought the US Title and Intercontinental title were generally seen as upper-midcard titles?

In all honesty, I believe it is the U.S. title. There have been so many great wrestlers that have been the U.S. champ. Ric flair, the Sheik, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Harley race, Booker T, the list goes on and on. Many great matches from around the world, and has that long history like the NWA World Title. So, what do you think is the greatest midcard title ever?

Do you even know the history behind this title?

While it had been held by many greats, I severely doubt you've even seen those title reigns. Sure, Harley Race held it. For all we know, those matches he had while defending his title could have been piss-poor. Same goes for Flair's reigns in the 70's. Sure, they're great wrestlers, but how can we comment on them being great champions when we don't know the quality behind those matches and feuds they were being taken through?

The title was pretty much meaningless during WCW's later days. Reigns lasted no longer than a month, very minimal to no build up was behind them, the titled was vacated seven times between 1996 and 2000, title changes occured at house shows, and they generally threw the strap on any old randomer who did nothing to honor their commitments with it and defend it regularly. Even Nash was stripping and awarding the title to whomever was in his stable at the time he was commissioner.

I guess it's gained in some prestige since the WWE brought it back, but the damage caused to it in WCW will take time. MVP's lenghty run is a good thing, but not when he's rarely defending it.

 

[klunderbunker]

I had to go with the US title as well. While its true that in the dying days of wcw the title went downhill fast, in the 80s and early 90s the title reigns were epic. Some of the feuds over that title went on for months and occasionaly almost a year. So many wrestlers used it as a stepping stone to the main event level, although many of them never won the world championship. Back in the days when the belt meant something, it was one of my favorite titles to see defended. Some great mid-card feuds and upper card feuds over it, and it made people like Magnum TA and Lex Luger stars.

 

[KoolKade]

I have to say the United States Heavyweight championship. People who wore the title like Magnum TA, Tully Blanchard, Nikita Koloff, and Barry Windham also had great matches and feuds made the title the best "mid card" title. The I-C title doesn't come close.

 

[Mugatunow]

First off to Matt moses, what is the difference between upper and regular mid card, it's the same thing. Don't nit pick. Second of all, I have seen some matches of each as the U.S. Champ, so I know what I'm talking about. that clear things up for you?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Yea, im gonnahave to disagree with the "lineage" and greatness of the US title, that everyone is marking on and on about. Im not sure why people get so romantic with the bingo hall territory days, and when WCW/NWA was doing their shows from a soundstage in front of 500 drunks who got into the show free, and just automatically claim anything from that era to be so great.

Triple H said in his DVD the IC title has always been the "workhorse title" and I tend to agree. During the WWE's most popular times, the IC title was putting on the best matches on the card. People want to point to the great linage of title holders and feuds for the US title as proof, well ill tell you something...

Mr.Perfect, Bret Hart, Shawn Micheals, Razor Ramon (Scott Hall), Ultimate Warrior, Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Edge, The British Bulldog, Owen Hart, Roddy Piper, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Umaga, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero is a lineage I will take ANY DAY. You may go on with your romantic tales of the bunkhouse brawls that Harley Race and Moondog spot had in fucking 1971 or whatever, and if you think THAT qualifies the US title to be better over the IC title, even though I would say 97% of the posters on this board werent even able to witness these great epic feuds they tout, that seems like a fairly flawed theory. Things seem to somehow gain an inordinate amount of overratedness as time passes by. I feel the evidenceclearly indicates that the IC title has been more high profile throughout time.

 

[MattMoses]

While I prefer the late 80's-early 90's US title runs. Windham, Luger, Sting, Rude, Hansen. Between these people, there were some great matches and feuds. The US title lost focus in the later 90's, which really degrades its prestige.

The Intercontinenal title on the other hand, throughout the 80's, people like Savage, Steamboat, Rude, Muraco and Valentine had great runs. The 90's were just as strong, with people like Ramon, Michaels, Perfect, Hart and Piper. Even the later 90's had great champions like Triple H, Austin and The Rock. Then come the 00's, people like Jericho, Benoit, Kurt Angle and Eddie Guerrero were putting on some very entertaining matches.

Overall, I'd choose the Intercontinental title. For one specific timeframe, I'd take the late 80's/early 90's US title.

First off to Matt moses, what is the difference between upper and regular mid card, it's the same thing.

Paul Birchill and Umaga are the difference between an mid-carder and an upper-midcarder.

Don't nit pick.

I'm not. You're just making silly assumptions.

Second of all, I have seen some matches of each as the U.S. Champ, so I know what I'm talking about.

That's a lie. Terry Funk won his WCW US title at a House show, non-televised. Unless you was there that night.

 

[Mugatunow]

Terry Funk wasn't in my list, so now you look like an illiterate asshole. And yes you were nit picking about the title being upper or lower. we were never talking about wrestlers, just the titles. wrestlers can be upper or lower mid card depending on the push they recieve, but a title is just a title.

 

[wrestlingfan701]

It seems to most people that the most important title here is simply the IC belt, just because people believe that for some reason. But, when you look at the bigger picture you might start seeing the U.S. title as the more important title. My reasons for this are that the title has been around slightly longer than the IC has, it has spanned across three companies in its history (nwa,wcw,wwe). It is held in higher regard in today's wwe than the IC is and the U.S. belt also has more former world champions in its entire history than the IC title does. Yes, these are simple facts and the IC belt has had great champions in its past, like hhh, rock, austin and even before them with bret hart and hbk. But, austin and hart also held the U.S. belt, as well as Flair and many others that have already been mentioned above. The IC belt has been more important in the past than it is now, most definately. However, there have been so many former IC champions that were just awarded the belt for one reason or another that never went on to hold any world titles. These include, Val Venis, Godfather, D'lo Brown, Albert, Road Dogg, Billy Gunn, Rikishi, Lance Storm (although he probably deserved it based on his pure wrestling ability), Test, William Regal (he might have deserved it as well?), even guys today like Santino (yes, he's good on the mic, but he isn't that good in the ring). And, in 2004 it might have been a good stepping stone for Randy Orton, but it didn't seem long after he lost the belt that he went on to win his first world title, (1 month?). It was basically the same stepping stone for Booker T and RVD in 2003 (and 2002 for RVD), but obviously they didn't become world champions until more recently in wwe than Orton. I thought the IC division was improving in late 2006, but now it's just turned in to nothing again. Jericho's the champion and where is his challenger? He'll probably just end up dropping it to Kennedy when he gets drafted to SD! or something. The last two IC title changes have only occured because of suspensions, Umaga lost it to Jeff because of the drug issues last year, just like Jericho winning it from Jeff this year. See, that's how much they care about the IC title now, its the least defended title in wwe and even tna today.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

I say the most important title is the ECW tv title, the title was defended on such a level and used in such high regard during the reigns of rhyno and rob van damm that it was main eventing ppv's the title was a pure example of of what a mid card title should be, it built an established wrestler up to the level that they where competing for the world title, then once the owner had established themselves in the main event it was passed over to someone else bordering on the lign of a midcard push getting them ready to main event, the only time that i havent see the title used in such a way was in the reign of justin credible, so to me the ECW TV title is the midcard!

 

[MattMoses]

My reasons for this are that the title has been around slightly longer than the IC has

Four years longer. That's barely a reason to choose it over the Intercontinental title.

it has spanned across three companies in its history (nwa,wcw,wwe).

And that would make it more prestigous than the Intercontinental championship why?

It is held in higher regard in today's wwe than the IC is

I fail to see how.

and the U.S. belt also has more former world champions in its entire history than the IC title does.

So what's more important, more champions with short, meaningless reigns or champions with longer, more prestigous reigns?

The fact is, the US title was vacated so much, that a champion would literally have their title vacated, then win it back a week later. Thus, making their reigns pretty much worthless.

Yes, these are simple facts

Facts which really shouldn't be a factor in deciding which championship is more prestigous.

However, there have been so many former IC champions that were just awarded the belt for one reason or another that never went on to hold any world titles.

I'd be willing to bet there's been more U.S champions than IC champions who never went on to win World titles.

Jericho's the champion and where is his challenger?

Where's MVP's challenger been during the time between Matt Hardy's injury and his return?

See, that's how much they care about the IC title now, its the least defended title in wwe and even tna today.

Yeah, because we see MVP defending his US title on a regular basis don't we.

 

[wrestlingfan701]

Well, I fail to see many other ways of deciding which title is more prestigious other than maybe the quality of matches that are put on by the champion at the times of their reigns. And, I'm sure most U.S. title matches in recent years have been better than most IC title defenses. Chris Benoit has basically dominated the title for the last few years, so obviously his matches with the likes of Finlay, Booker, Kennedy? and MVP have probably been better than Jeff Hardy's or Santino's. Yes, in years before, the IC title has been held in higher regard and has been put on the line in better matches than a lot of other matches on the same cards, but, at the same time, surely guys like bret hart's U.S. title defenses in 1998 were just as good as any IC title matches in wwf at the time, if not better? Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Ric Flair and Lance Storm must have also had good matches too. All right, you win MattMoses, I give up lol. By the way, you are wrong about there being more IC champions with world title reigns than U.S. champions, take a look at the title histories yourself, I already have. And at least MVP has a challenger to his belt, Y2J has no one, except maybe Kennedy in the future. MVP does defend his belt at least a bit more the IC title is defended. Last year was a better example, Vengeance, GAB, Cyber Sunday, Armageddon. The IC title was only defended by Hardy on a couple Raws when he was first being pushed up to possible future ME status, against Carlito (Raw anniversary show) and against Snitsky (WTF?).

 

[MattMoses]

Well, I fail to see many other ways of deciding which title is more prestigious

Lengthy reigns with quality backing. Great matches, feuds, storylines. Champions who defend on a regular basis.

surely guys like bret hart's U.S. title defenses in 1998 were just as good

Like that time he didn't even defend his belt once and then lost it a month later? Or what about the time he held it for two weeks, didn't defend it once and then lost it to Scott Hall, who went on to give up the title a few weeks later because of an injury?

Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Ric Flair and Lance Storm must have also had good matches too.

If I'm to be honest, of all four people you listed here, theres only two reigns shared between them all I can remember. The first one was Guerrero's win at Starrcade, which I recall because he stated how much he hated the booking that went along with his title win, and the other one would be Storm's first reign, and that's only because he unofficially renamed the title.

By the time it got to the Monday Night Wars, the US title was worthless. Sometimes you just didn't know what week it was when it was being vacated, people 'giving' the belt to somebody else or title changes at house shows.

By the way, you are wrong about there being more IC champions with world title reigns than U.S. champions, take a look at the title histories yourself, I already have.

33 Intercontinental champions didn't go on to win a World title, while 38 U.S champions didn't go on to win a World title.

However, since the numbers are so close, I don't really see how that effects the long-term history of either title.

 

[wrestlingfan701]

I meant that more U.S. champions had been world champions at some point than IC champions, not the number of people that didn't win world titles, whether it really matters or not.

 

[MattMoses]

I meant that more U.S. champions had been world champions at some point than IC champions, not the number of people that didn't win world titles, whether it really matters or not.

Yes, you are correct. There have been 27 WCW US Champions who either before or after holding the title, went on to become a World champion, opposed to the 23 people who held the Intercontinental championship.

I don't really see what you're trying to prove with that though, since I've already told you that the US title was being passed around like a toy come 1996. Hell, Raven, Terry Funk, Lex Luger and Goldberg all had one day title reigns. What does that show you?

 

[wrestlingfan701]

I'm not trying to prove any more points on this topic, I said I give up. Just making sure you knew which way I was looking at the former world and mid-card champions subject.

 

[schoondog]

To me, its the United States championship (pre-WWE) over the IC championship for the simple reason when was the last time the IC championship title was up for grabs at the WWE's biggest pay per per Wrestlemania?

 

[Total Impact]

WCW United States Heavyweight Championship. Because WCW made the title seem important and didn't look at it as just a belt to past to anyone during te glory days of the company. Hell in WCW there was nothing wrong with losing the World Title and going for the US Title as it was seen as just important. Hell just look at the Sting-Rude feud for the belt and you see how the belt was important. Look t the fact that Bret Hart held the belt, Goldberg went back down to hold the belt. WCW put pride in holding the US Championship.

 

[MattMoses]

Because WCW made the title seem important and didn't look at it as just a belt to past to anyone during te glory days of the company.

You seem to be discounting the later-era history of the title. Sure, the glory days were great and some great feuds and matches took place, but you have to look at the bigger picture here.

Hell in WCW there was nothing wrong with losing the World Title and going for the US Title as it was seen as just important.

Not really. The World title was always seen as the more important title.

Hell just look at the Sting-Rude feud for the belt and you see how the belt was important.

Go on, explain to me.

Look t the fact that Bret Hart held the belt

Boy, Bret Hart holding the belt sure did give it more credibility. I mean, remember that time he won the belt and lost it two weeks later in a very poor match and storyline?

Goldberg went back down to hold the belt.

Yes, for one day. That sure did give the belt more credibility.

WCW put pride in holding the US Championship.

During its "glory days", maybe so. I don't see how one day title reigns, 17 times vacated and title changes at house shows proves how much "pride" WCW put into holding that belt.

They started throwing that belt around like a toy. They didn't care about its history or what it represented.

To me, its the United States championship (pre-WWE) over the IC championship for the simple reason when was the last time the IC championship title was up for grabs at the WWE's biggest pay per per Wrestlemania?

I really, really hope that post is a joke.

 

[xmoshx]

i will got wit the wwe ic championship just like stone cold said in his dvd some wrestlers find the ic belt better then the wwe championship because there gearing you up to the main event when they give you the ic belt and look at the list of all the great ppl who held the ic belt then grew to the main event level

 

[Y 2 Jake]

The IC title is overrated. Always has been. Bar a couple of great title reigns it's not been special. It's hardly been the title that's produced the best, most underrated matches ever.

You might remember a couple of champions, but do you remember throughout their reigns?

Honky Tonk Man has the longest reign. But what did he do with it? He certainly didn't have great matches. The highlight was Warrior beating him quickly.

In fact, I'm gonna say it. The Warrior vs. Rick Rude is the only IC feud worth remembering.

 

[Total Impact]

You seem to be discounting the later-era history of the title. Sure, the glory days were great and some great feuds and matches took place, but you have to look at the bigger picture here.


Not really. The World title was always seen as the more important title.


Go on, explain to me.


Boy, Bret Hart holding the belt sure did give it more credibility. I mean, remember that time he won the belt and lost it two weeks later in a very poor match and storyline?


Yes, for one day. That sure did give the belt more credibility.


During its "glory days", maybe so. I don't see how one day title reigns, 17 times vacated and title changes at house shows proves how much "pride" WCW put into holding that belt.

They started throwing that belt around like a toy. They didn't care about its history or what it represented.


I really, really hope that post is a joke.

Ric Rude vS Sting was a great feud for the title that saw Sting actually make the US Title seem like the best title to have with his desire to win it from Rude. They played up the angle with rude taking him out and Sting coming back to win the belt. The US Belt wasn’t look at as a downgrade as the WWE made wining the IC title. Look at Ric Flair who went back down one the US title before and it had no problem on his status rather it was for one day or two. The US title has always been the better title as for the simple fact that Main Eventers would go for the belt like it was the world title and not be considered Mid-card.

The IC title is overrated. Always has been. Bar a couple of great title reigns it's not been special. It's hardly been the title that's produced the best, most underrated matches ever.

You might remember a couple of champions, but do you remember throughout their reigns?

Honky Tonk Man has the longest reign. But what did he do with it? He certainly didn't have great matches. The highlight was Warrior beating him quickly.

In fact, I'm gonna say it. The Warrior vs. Rick Rude is the only IC feud worth remembering.

Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart had an ok feud that lead to the first ever WWE Ladder Match in which Bret Hart won. You had Macho Man vS Ricky Steamboat that resulted in the greatest WrestleMania under card match of all time. The Rock and Triple H for the IC saw classic promos and a classic rivalry build from a simple roll up from Mavia. Austin and Owen Hart, British Bulldog and Bret Hart. Shawn Michaels & Razor Ramon. But in the past 9 years, nothing special has happened.

 

[dabigswerm]

I would have to agree that The U.S title belt is the best. Gr8 Wrestlers who had to gr8 matches even if they weren't championship bouts .How is this list Tully Blanchard , Magnum T. A , Nikita Koloff , Ricky Steamboat ,Dusty Rhodes just to name a few. would would go on to be the champ ,even if it was for a couple of weeks or so , or give the champ all he could handle. Damn i miss those days

 

[MattMoses]

Ric Rude vS Sting was a great feud for the title that saw Sting actually make the US Title seem like the best title to have with his desire to win it from Rude.

Wait, so what you're saying is that Sting having the desire to win an upper-midcard title from Rick Rude makes the title seem more prestigous than the World title?

I'm not denying their matches weren't great (they were nothing special), but I'm just not seeing the logic here. You also have to remember that once Rude won the title from Sting at Clash of the Champions, Sting then went on to feud with Luger and won his first WCW World Heavyweight Championship. So if Sting winning the US title made it seem more prestigous than the World Title, what did that make the US title once he actually won the World Title a few months later?

They played up the angle with rude taking him out and Sting coming back to win the belt.

But he didn't win the belt from Rude. He won the World title from Luger.

The US Belt wasn’t look at as a downgrade as the WWE made wining the IC title.

Both the US and IC titles are generally titles which are given to people who are seen as potentially main-eventers. Just look at Luger, Goldberg, Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Sgt. Slaugher among others. The titles are seen as stepping stones to make it to the main event scene. I know there's been plenty of IC and US champions who never made it to that level, but that's simply because they didn't have what it takes.

Look at Ric Flair who went back down one the US title

That's probably because he didn't fit into the main event scene at the time. It was heavily built around Hogan and The Giant and then leading up to Hogan's Heel turn. I mean, who else would they have thrown the strap on at that time?

The US title has always been the better title as for the simple fact that Main Eventers would go for the belt like it was the world title and not be considered Mid-card.

That's ridiculous. The title's prestige shouldn't be based on who held it - it should be based on how great the champion carries himself throughout his reign. If Ric Flair's having mediocre matches and lame feuds, it's not going to mean as much as Benoit who's putting on solid matches while in decent feuds is it?

I would have to agree that The U.S title belt is the best. Gr8 Wrestlers who had to gr8 matches even if they weren't championship bouts .How is this list Tully Blanchard , Magnum T. A , Nikita Koloff , Ricky Steamboat ,Dusty Rhodes just to name a few.

I can do you one better. Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Steve Austin & Shawn Michaels, just to name a few.

The IC title is overrated. Always has been. Bar a couple of great title reigns it's not been special. It's hardly been the title that's produced the best, most underrated matches ever.

In comparison to other titles mentioned in this thread, I'd disagree.

In fact, I'm gonna say it. The Warrior vs. Rick Rude is the only IC feud worth remembering.

Jericho/Benoit was great as well. For feuds, I can't remember many great ones, but matches with the IC title on the line, I can think of quite a few. Michaels/Ramon, Savage/Steamboat, Hart/Perfect, Austin/Owen & HHH/Rock are a few off the top of my head.