Shawn Michaels: Beyond His Prime?

[HBK-aholic]

That's fine. He doesn't appeal to your tastes. But to say that was Hogan's best match, and that HBK was the reason it was good, is completely missing the boat.

You may never have been a big Hogan fan when it comes to in-ring ability, but you are very clearly in the minority and have been for 30 years.

At least you understand I can have my opinion on it. It wasn't Hogans best match. I don't think I could pin point exactly what was. But it was IMO one of his best. If simply for the crowd reactions which everyone seems to be talking about.

Because....?

Keep going. You'll get there.

I fail to see the point..

No, that's all the WWE cares about. But, the people who get put over, and the people who make money go hand in hand. Meaning that if you are over, then you make money. For someone to be over, they have to be entertaining. The WWE can push you all they want, but if you are not entertaining, you will not become over.

But to be entertaining you don't have to be a great wrestler inside the ring so it seems. Cena for example. His promos and gimmick show how much he deserved to be champion for so long. But his in-ring ability didn't warrant as much.

As far as suddenly coming back, what world are you living in? Hogan was inducted in the Hall of Fame, made appearance saving Eugene at Wrestlemania, wrestled with HBK at Backlash, made a couple of Raw appearances before that, made the Raw appearance where he got superkicked. It's not like Hogan materialized out of thin air.

Comapred to most of the other superstars at the time, Hogan had just practically been there for the match and left. I don't mean all these appearances, I mean how many times did he wrestle during this? Not many.

No, I'm just saying that to say HBK has never had a bad match makes your opinion unreliable. I'm as big of a Sting fan as anyone, and I know he's had bad matches. I'm probably the biggest Cena supporter here, and I know he's had bad matches. EVERY wrestler has bad matches.

It doesn't make my opinion unreliable. And everyone keeps saying to me Shawn has had bad matches, but no one is giving me an example of one.

The Wrestlemania match was the best match on the card. It often gets overlooked because a) Batista/Undertaker exceeded expectations b) Cena/Michaels had HUGE expectations and c) their Raw match was better. But HBK/Cena from Wrestlemania was a very good match.

And, Cena uses the STFU just as much as he uses the FU to win his matches. Not exactly taking him out of a supposed "comfort zone".

The Batista Taker match was the best match of the night. It really did exceed expectations. It does get overlooked though. And there's a reason for that. We saw what both wrestlers could do on Raw that following night.

Great American Bash. You know, where they tore the house down? Where the roof exploded when Cena won? You know, the match where Jim Ross spent no less than 10 minutes the next night on Raw talking about how great of a match it was?

Go watch it again.

I'm going to hunt it out actually.

Oh my...did you really say that?

Do you not understand that to be entertaining in the ring, you have to have good in-ring ability? You're making a distinction where there is none. You can't be a good in-ring wrestler if you're not entertaining, and you cannot be entertaining if you're not good in the ring.

Not true. There are a few really good wrestlers with in ring ability, which entertains me in a different way to what is classed as 'entertaining' in the WWE. I enjoy watching wrestlers like MVP, or quite a few in TNA, where they have a lot of pure talent.

You mean besides Andre, Steamboat, Race, Savage, DiBiase, Orndorff, Piper, Warrior, Henning, Slaughter etc.?

I'm sure before everyone was saying Hogan carried the WWE on his back with no help. Yet here you go describing why it wasn't just him. I know it wasn't just him. I've said I don't believe any one wrestler could carry a whole company, but without them it could be a lot less strong.

And, I say that you probably haven't watched too many Hogan matches, or you are only saying that because Shawn was in the match.

Sly seriously this is just annoying me now. Just because I am a huge Shawn fan I aren't going to say everything great about him if I don't feel it. If a match has been made good by his opponent, I'll say it. E.g. I think Shawn did hardly anything for the New generation of DX, it was all HHH's working.
Do you say this just because I'm a girl and you think I just fancy him? It confuses me to the point of just mere annoyance.

He's had a LOT better matches than the one with HBK. I like Shawn Michaels just fine, but to say this match was one of HBK's or Hogan's best matches is ludicrous.

Let's put it this way. What if I said this was Shawn Michael's best match ever, and the reason for that was because of Hulk Hogan. How would you perceive that statement? Entirely false and you wouldn't begin to understand how I could make such a statement, right? Well, that's how it goes for your statement that this was one of Hogan's better matches.

I didn't say this was Hogans best match, but in my eyes it was one of them. If you want to think this was one of Shawn's; think it. I don't agree with it at all. And I'd probably try to debate why you;d say that, as you're doing. But you're also twisting a lot of what I've said.

Blatantly false. Having talent in wrestling is ALL about being entertaining enough to make people want to pay to see you. THAT'S what talent is. And that's why most cruiserweights can't compare in talent to the guy who is the biggest draw.

They may be able to do more cool flips, and run faster in the ring, but that's not what makes someone talented in the scripted world of professional wrestling.

But it's what makes it different from soaps and pointless TV shows.

Everything he did, doesn't compare to Cena's drawing ability now. At no time did HBK draw like Cena is now. You seem to be forgetting that.

And where is Cena's competition? When Shawn was on top with the Championship there was the Monday Night Wars. By the time WWE's main competitor, TNA, becomes big enough to give the WWE a proper run for his money Cena will be out of the spotlight yet people won't take this into the consideration. There wouldn't be as many people watching Raw if there was competiton for it. And that's not Cena, that's just the truth.

 

[BooCocky]

So what if I'm one person in the millions as you say? That doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours. I don't care if I'm outnumbered, if I think it I'll say it.

But one person doesnt take away from anything Hulk Hogan accomplished. He is the biggest name in the business, he must be doing something right.... One person is not going to put a damper in either one of their bank accounts

Whether you think shawn is egotistical or not, he wouldn't have said no to a feud. I think they could have made it really interesting, but the WWE didn't take up on that.

But it is not like HBK never through a tantrum when he was asked to job. like HHH Michaels has a hard time in putting people over. In his one match with Kennedy he was trying show up Mr Kennedy because of a messed up neck breaker.

Shawn isn't lucky to make the top 5. He'd make it easily.

Meh, Hogan,Austin, The Rock. Possibly Mr McMahon, when he is involved in a story ratings seem to go up, then it is a toss up between Taker/HBK imo.

I was talking about every PPV in general, not just one.

But people still buy the PPV's and they usually get high buyrates, which means they are doing something right....their shows are usually solid, nothing great.

But I watched GAB. I'm going to go hunt it down anyway.

I dont believe this. It was the best match on the card, it was good, possibly top 5 match of the year. You must've just turned thte tv off when Cena came to the ring. Second best match of the year, besides Cena/HBK on raw. Blind Cena hater.

He revolutionised Tag Team wrestling with Marty Jannety. Don't even try to deny this. They made tag team wrestling about team work, not just a singles match but with 4 people involved. Watch matches before The Rockers and afterwards.

See, what does this have to do with HBK being outmatched by Austin, and the Rock, and the other i previously mentioned? How did the revolutionize tag team wrestling? Did you ever hear of the Steiners, Hart Foundation, the British Bulldogs, Dudleys, and the Road Warriors, or even the Brainbusters?

He was the First Grand Slam champion. He won everything he could, and was the first to do it.

Lets go Austin, IMO his feud with the Rock was the beginning of the Attitude ERA, he and the Rock helped revolutionize the WWE. The Rock is a 7 time champion, and came through the Ranks like no other. Austin was an all around favorite from everyone, the Hell raiser, he disobeyed the Boss, and was something else, got mad pops and is probably top 3 superstar of all time, along with the Rock.. Foley never had a problem putting people over, even if it means it will ruin his creditability.

He came back from an injury most people would have been forced to retire from. He has strength and determination.

Most people, how did you come to this? People come back from injuries all the time. Gosh look at American football players, they get banged up all the time.

He has had great matches with the best and worst of them.

Hogan carried the Ultimate Warrior to his best match. Hogan has had great matches, and could sell out MSG. Hogan could have a match with Khali, and the crowd would be ecstatic.

He has more passion than anyone I have ever seen wrestle.

thats great, Bret Favre, a professional football players has a lot of passion for the game, but doesnt mean he is the greatest.

Well a few shows actually, but yeah that's my assumption. I've admitted it may be wrong for others, but everyone's assumptions come from somewhere; that just happens to be mine.

A few shows? Wow, when those superstars are on the road almost every day.. Cena has a large fan base that ranges in age, and in gender.

But if they were only entertainers they'd be at a Childrens party or in a soap opera. The WWE is more than that.

they are entertainers, it is a show, I swear the WWE is one large male soap opera. they are athletic, i cant deny that. But they are entertainers.

The crowd was into this match because it was 2 greats. No matter how bad the match could have been there would have been a fan reaction.

The crowd was popping for Hogan, Hogan made that match enjoyable. the fans werent enjoying HBK's overselling, they were enjoying the match, and they were cheering for Hogan because he was the face

Since when am I an unknown poster? Give me the credit I deserve damnit!

That's from my post on Youtube.

Yep and i still laugh every time i see it. I will give you the credit... I was trying to keep it on the down low.

 

[HBK-aholic]

But one person doesnt take away from anything Hulk Hogan accomplished. He is the biggest name in the business, he must be doing something right.... One person is not going to put a damper in either one of their bank accounts

Nothing will ever take away from what Hogan accomplished, I aren't trying to do that. But I can have an opinion on whether I liked his style.

But it is not like HBK never through a tantrum when he was asked to job. like HHH Michaels has a hard time in putting people over. In his one match with Kennedy he was trying show up Mr Kennedy because of a messed up neck breaker.

Seriously? You're comaring Shawn and HHH when it comes to putting people over? Look at Shawn this last year since his return. Look at HHH. This is ridiculous.

Meh, Hogan,Austin, The Rock. Possibly Mr McMahon, when he is involved in a story ratings seem to go up, then it is a toss up between Taker/HBK imo.

Mr McMahon is World Wrestling Entertainment, and I'd put him before any of those, including Shawn. Hogan and Taker would also be up there. I can't say I have an opibnion on anyone else who should be there.

But people still buy the PPV's and they usually get high buyrates, which means they are doing something right....their shows are usually solid, nothing great.

WWE's PPV's always sell high. I know I buy them every month. But I don't get what your point is?

I dont believe this. It was the best match on the card, it was good, possibly top 5 match of the year. You must've just turned thte tv off when Cena came to the ring. Second best match of the year, besides Cena/HBK on raw. Blind Cena hater.

If one of my favourite matches of the year had Cena in it I doubt you can call me that. If I can say I know he does his job great and he is one of the best at it, then once again you can't call me that.

See, what does this have to do with HBK being outmatched by Austin, and the Rock, and the other i previously mentioned? How did the revolutionize tag team wrestling? Did you ever hear of the Steiners, Hart Foundation, the British Bulldogs, Dudleys, and the Road Warriors, or even the Brainbusters?

You told me to name what shan had done. I did.

They were the first team to fully string moves together, and to make use of the time you have to get out of the ring. I aren't saying they were the best tag team ever, far from it. And when the tag team division was competitive, with The TLC matches etc, they wouldn't have stood a chance. The Dudley boyz are the best tag team ever.

Lets go Austin, IMO his feud with the Rock was the beginning of the Attitude ERA, he and the Rock helped revolutionize the WWE. The Rock is a 7 time champion, and came through the Ranks like no other. Austin was an all around favorite from everyone, the Hell raiser, he disobeyed the Boss, and was something else, got mad pops and is probably top 3 superstar of all time, along with the Rock.. Foley never had a problem putting people over, even if it means it will ruin his creditability.

Why when Shawn 'disobeyed the boss' it's all abot him having a huge ego and not wanting to lose, but when Austin does it he's just being great? You seem to be the hater here.

Most people, how did you come to this? People come back from injuries all the time. Gosh look at American football players, they get banged up all the time.

WWE thread. I was surprised you hadn't brought Football into this already. Do I watch American football? I don't care about it at all. Especially in terms of the wrestlers.

Hogan carried the Ultimate Warrior to his best match. Hogan has had great matches, and could sell out MSG. Hogan could have a match with Khali, and the crowd would be ecstatic.

Hogan could have a matchwith anyone and the crowd would be ecstatic. I know that I haven't denied it, so stop putting the same point across.

thats great, Bret Favre, a professional football players has a lot of passion for the game, but doesnt mean he is the greatest.

Seriously with the football.

A few shows? Wow, when those superstars are on the road almost every day.. Cena has a large fan base that ranges in age, and in gender.

Unless we get every Cena fan ever hereon these forums, we can't prove this either way.

they are entertainers, it is a show, I swear the WWE is one large male soap opera. they are athletic, i cant deny that. But they are entertainers.

The athletic part should be a bigger part than it is though IMO.

The crowd was popping for Hogan, Hogan made that match enjoyable. the fans werent enjoying HBK's overselling, they were enjoying the match, and they were cheering for Hogan because he was the face

The fans were enjoying the matchin general. It had so much hype that it was enjoyable regardless.

 

[Slyfox696]

I fail to see the point..

The whole "lost my smile" speech and his forfeiture of the WWF title was so he wouldn't have to lose the title back to Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13.

But to be entertaining you don't have to be a great wrestler inside the ring so it seems. Cena for example. His promos and gimmick show how much he deserved to be champion for so long. But his in-ring ability didn't warrant as much.

Wrong again. How can one be entertaining over a long period of time if he's not good in the ring? Cena is a great example. He's a tremendous wrestler, which is why he is so damn entertaining to so many people. His in-ring ability is phenomenal, which is why he is the biggest draw.

You're not making any sense. How can people be entertained long term by someone who isn't good at entertaining, which is what pro wrestling is all about? It's not possible. To be a good entertainer between the ropes, you have to be a good wrestler.

Comapred to most of the other superstars at the time, Hogan had just practically been there for the match and left. I don't mean all these appearances, I mean how many times did he wrestle during this? Not many.

He probably wrestled slightly less than either John Cena or Shawn Michaels did during this time period. It's a basic business principle. If you want people to pay to see Hogan wrestle, why would you have him wrestle every week on free tv? That would be just bad business.

It doesn't make my opinion unreliable. And everyone keeps saying to me Shawn has had bad matches, but no one is giving me an example of one.

No one remembers bad matches generally, because their not memorable. But, Khali vs. Shawn Michaels, sometime last summer before Cena wrestled Khali at one of the PPVs was an absolutely atrocious match to watch, much worse than what Cena got out of Khali.

It was on May 7, 2007.
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/results/raw/070507.html

Terrible terrible match.

I'm going to hunt it out actually.

No need. Just follow this link.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...uu_wwe-gab-2007-john-cena-vs-bobby-las_events

Not true. There are a few really good wrestlers with in ring ability, which entertains me in a different way to what is classed as 'entertaining' in the WWE. I enjoy watching wrestlers like MVP, or quite a few in TNA, where they have a lot of pure talent.

And, how would you classify their "pure talent"? What do they do that makes them "talented"?

I'm sure before everyone was saying Hogan carried the WWE on his back with no help. Yet here you go describing why it wasn't just him. I know it wasn't just him. I've said I don't believe any one wrestler could carry a whole company, but without them it could be a lot less strong.

No, Hogan carried the WWF through the golden ages because he was that damn good, not because there was no one else who was good on the roster.

Sly seriously this is just annoying me now. Just because I am a huge Shawn fan I aren't going to say everything great about him if I don't feel it. If a match has been made good by his opponent, I'll say it. E.g. I think Shawn did hardly anything for the New generation of DX, it was all HHH's working.
Do you say this just because I'm a girl and you think I just fancy him? It confuses me to the point of just mere annoyance.

No, I say this because you are obviously a huge Shawn Michaels fan, a self-admitted Shawn Michaels fan, and you are trying to say that Shawn Michaels carried Hogan to one of the best matches of his career, a statement that is obviously either wrapped in pure ignorance or pure blind love of Shawn Michaels.

I didn't say this was Hogans best match, but in my eyes it was one of them. If you want to think this was one of Shawn's; think it. I don't agree with it at all. And I'd probably try to debate why you;d say that, as you're doing. But you're also twisting a lot of what I've said.

I'm not twisting anything that you've said around. And, I don't think it was one of Shawn's better ones, because instead of going out and giving the fans the best show possible, he chose instead to go out and pout and try to show Hogan up. It was childish, unprofessional, and more like what he would have done ten years ago.

But it's what makes it different from soaps and pointless TV shows.

Yes, but just like on soaps and TV shows, the ones with the talent are what hold your attention, not the ones with flashy (and pointless) comments. John Cena holds your attention, because he is talented. Shawn Michaels holds your attention because he's talented. Charlie Haas couldn't hold anyone's attention with two hands, a shovel and a 5 gallon pail. Because he's boring and nobody wants to watch him. He doesn't have the talent to make people care, which is ultimately the most important aspect of any pro wrestler.

And where is Cena's competition? When Shawn was on top with the Championship there was the Monday Night Wars. By the time WWE's main competitor, TNA, becomes big enough to give the WWE a proper run for his money Cena will be out of the spotlight yet people won't take this into the consideration. There wouldn't be as many people watching Raw if there was competiton for it. And that's not Cena, that's just the truth.

Where is HBK's competition? If HBK is so great, how come HE isn't the biggest draw? I mean, Hulk Hogan was THE single biggest draw in 1996 and 1997 at approximately the same age as Shawn Michaels, AND had competition. So, age really is no excuse.

How come Shawn Michaels doesn't draw like John Cena now?

 

[HBK-aholic]

The whole "lost my smile" speech and his forfeiture of the WWF title was so he wouldn't have to lose the title back to Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13.

Not true. You really think Shawn would do something like that just to get out of dropping the belt? No.

Wrong again. How can one be entertaining over a long period of time if he's not good in the ring? Cena is a great example. He's a tremendous wrestler, which is why he is so damn entertaining to so many people. His in-ring ability is phenomenal, which is why he is the biggest draw.

You're not making any sense. How can people be entertained long term by someone who isn't good at entertaining, which is what pro wrestling is all about? It's not possible. To be a good entertainer between the ropes, you have to be a good wrestler.

It is very possible. Cena is boring in the ring. And this isn't just me, you know a lot of this forum agrees with me on it. But Cena's gimmick makes him entertaining, especially witht he 'Chain Gang' gimmick where he used to bring all this chains down to the ring.

He probably wrestled slightly less than either John Cena or Shawn Michaels did during this time period. It's a basic business principle. If you want people to pay to see Hogan wrestle, why would you have him wrestle every week on free tv? That would be just bad business.

But then it goes back to the point of Hogan basically only appearing for that one match.

No one remembers bad matches generally, because their not memorable. But, Khali vs. Shawn Michaels, sometime last summer before Cena wrestled Khali at one of the PPVs was an absolutely atrocious match to watch, much worse than what Cena got out of Khali.

It was on May 7, 2007.
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/results/raw/070507.html

Terrible terrible match.


No need. Just follow this link.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...uu_wwe-gab-2007-john-cena-vs-bobby-las_events

Well thanks for all the links, I'll look at them. And yeah I remember the Shawn Khali match, and I'll admit the match Cena got out of him was better, and is probably Khali's best match. Cena did something I didn't think was possible when it comes to Khali.

And, how would you classify their "pure talent"? What do they do that makes them "talented"?

I class that as someone who doesn't need huge gimmicks or anything just to put on a maybe simple, yet effective bunch of wrestling moves and by doing so makes the audience see a good wrestling match. (When I say that I mean 'technical' wrestling)

No, Hogan carried the WWF through the golden ages because he was that damn good, not because there was no one else who was good on the roster.

I aren't saying that. I don't believe any one person has ever carried the WWE single handedly, because it isn't possible. And Hogan deserves the credit he gets for it, but it wasn't just him. It will never be jus one wrestler. It was never just Hogan during this time. It was never just Shawn durong the Monday Night Wars, and these last few years it was never just Cena.

No, I say this because you are obviously a huge Shawn Michaels fan, a self-admitted Shawn Michaels fan, and you are trying to say that Shawn Michaels carried Hogan to one of the best matches of his career, a statement that is obviously either wrapped in pure ignorance or pure blind love of Shawn Michaels.

Or maybe that's just my opinion on watching the match, just like you have yours?

I'm not twisting anything that you've said around. And, I don't think it was one of Shawn's better ones, because instead of going out and giving the fans the best show possible, he chose instead to go out and pout and try to show Hogan up. It was childish, unprofessional, and more like what he would have done ten years ago.

Shawn didn't act like that during the match though. And they could have done so much more if there had been a proper feud. No that wasn't Shawn saying he wouldn't do it, it was WWE creative not taking the chance.

Yes, but just like on soaps and TV shows, the ones with the talent are what hold your attention, not the ones with flashy (and pointless) comments. John Cena holds your attention, because he is talented. Shawn Michaels holds your attention because he's talented. Charlie Haas couldn't hold anyone's attention with two hands, a shovel and a 5 gallon pail. Because he's boring and nobody wants to watch him. He doesn't have the talent to make people care, which is ultimately the most important aspect of any pro wrestler.

Ya well Haas needs the mask gimmick lol. Yeah Cena and Shawn are both talented They both do different things really well. It makes sense "the talent to make people care, which is ultimately the most important aspect of any pro wrestler". There are a lot of ways to make people care about the match and both Cena and Shawn can do this.

Where is HBK's competition? If HBK is so great, how come HE isn't the biggest draw? I mean, Hulk Hogan was THE single biggest draw in 1996 and 1997 at approximately the same age as Shawn Michaels, AND had competition. So, age really is no excuse.

How come Shawn Michaels doesn't draw like John Cena now?

Give Shawn the WWE championship and he would. People would pay to see Shawn win the championship one last time. It would be huge. It's like a lot of people have said, people will believe what the WWE tells them, so when the WWE pushes Cena down their throats people will believe he is the greatest (This is an example not a dig at him). It's all about the push wrestlers recieve these days, and i don't think creative are going to give that to Shawn.

And in all seriousness, people don't go to see wrestling live just because of Cena. They don't watch it just because of him or any other one person. It's a whole package.

 

[HBKgOttaKnowNow24]

GOD..this Sh!t got WAAAAY out of hand haha!!!....The man is past his prime. Thats what this is about...And i believe im one of the BIGGEST HBK fans EVER...i might not have posters on my wall or wear his heart-shaped sunglasses from 96, but i AM a HUGE HBK fan, and I AM saying, passed his prime-YES...STILL able to perform better than 90% of the entire WWE roster-YES...HBK FOR LIFE....

Hulk Hogan eh?.......i heard he was pretty good.


HAHAHAHAHAHA.......chill out everyone.....

 

[BooCocky]

Nothing will ever take away from what Hogan accomplished, I aren't trying to do that. But I can have an opinion on whether I liked his style.

But that doesnt take away from the millions and millions who adored him

Seriously? You're comaring Shawn and HHH when it comes to putting people over? Look at Shawn this last year since his return. Look at HHH. This is ridiculous.

Yes, they are both power hungry, and greedy, who do not like putting people over. Its an easy comparison.

Mr McMahon is World Wrestling Entertainment, and I'd put him before any of those, including Shawn. Hogan and Taker would also be up there. I can't say I have an opibnion on anyone else who should be there.

I dont get where you are going, you said he easily made the top five... I mentioned five people, and he barely made the top five.

WWE's PPV's always sell high. I know I buy them every month. But I don't get what your point is?

This is what you said

I was talking about every PPV in general, not just one.

Thus is what I said

But people still buy the PPV's and they usually get high buyrates, which means they are doing something right....their shows are usually solid, nothing great.

you were criticizing WWE PPVs... I went on to say they get good buyrates, and people are into their matches... they must be doing something right

If one of my favourite matches of the year had Cena in it I doubt you can call me that. If I can say I know he does his job great and he is one of the best at it, then once again you can't call me that.

But you are not giving Cena any credit, outside of the money part. He held is own in the sixty minute match. So i dont see where you are going when you praise someone, and you arent giving the opponent any credit, when he went 60 minutes, and he took HBK to the max. He made HBK work in that match, and he brought out a side in HBK you havent seen in years

You told me to name what shan had done. I did.

But saying he revolutionized tag team wrestling is ignorance. They were a good team, but he didnt revolutionize tag team wrestling. Thats like kicking the greats right where it hurts.

They were the first team to fully string moves together, and to make use of the time you have to get out of the ring. I aren't saying they were the best tag team ever, far from it. And when the tag team division was competitive, with The TLC matches etc, they wouldn't have stood a chance. The Dudley boyz are the best tag team ever.

Stringing together moves? What does that have to do with anything? The Dudleyz are great, they are like a 20 time champion, and they have held tag team gold on so many levels. I honestly dont see where you are heading

Why when Shawn 'disobeyed the boss' it's all abot him having a huge ego and not wanting to lose, but when Austin does it he's just being great? You seem to be the hater here.

Austin does have a huge ego, and i criticize him for having one.. But if i remember correctly, he retired after losing a match. Yes if he doesn't get his way he walked out. But this isnt about Austin here, so i dont see where you are going. Austin is a bigger draw, he should get what he wants to an extent. He didnt like the story lines he was involved in, that is why he walked away.

WWE thread. I was surprised you hadn't brought Football into this already. Do I watch American football? I don't care about it at all. Especially in terms of the wrestlers.

But you brought up passion and determination, just because he is passionate doesnt make him the best. I fail to see where you are going with this... I was once a passionate writer, but it doesn't make me the best.. I was determined to finish my grad project, but it doesnt make me the best.

Hogan could have a matchwith anyone and the crowd would be ecstatic. I know that I haven't denied it, so stop putting the same point across.

But you still fail to see why his fans are ecstatic. He is an entertainer, and a damned good one. He is pretty good for a guy his size, and is one helluva wrestler.

Seriously with the football.

Que?

Unless we get every Cena fan ever hereon these forums, we can't prove this either way.

What his fan base? When you watch Raw, or watch a ppv, look at the people that are cheering him? They range in age.. They might not buy his merchandise, but they pay to see Cena

The athletic part should be a bigger part than it is though IMO.

They are entertainers. Thats what their job is. If you want actual wrestling, try high school or college wrestling. You know the thing Angle won gold in...

The fans were enjoying the matchin general. It had so much hype that it was enjoyable regardless.

Yeah because we pay to see HBK over sell and look like a complete baby
If fans

 

[Slyfox696]

Not true. You really think Shawn would do something like that just to get out of dropping the belt? No.

Yes.

And, it is true. There was supposed to be a Wrestlemania 12 rematch, which pitted Hart vs. Michaels, and Michaels was to return the favor to Hart. However, because of their real life feud, Michaels basically refused to lose to Hart, and then "lost his smile", which meant that the WWF had to scramble to put together ANOTHER Hart vs. Austin match.

It is very possible. Cena is boring in the ring. And this isn't just me, you know a lot of this forum agrees with me on it. But Cena's gimmick makes him entertaining, especially witht he 'Chain Gang' gimmick where he used to bring all this chains down to the ring.

Gimmicks only last until the bell. At that point it is up to Cena to entertain people, which he has done for the last two and a half years. How do I know he's entertained people? Because people continue to pay to watch him wrestle.

And while 10 people on this forum may agree that Cena is boring in the ring, MILLIONS of fans all over the world agree that Cena is highly entertaining. And as long as those fans are paying more money to see Cena than anyone else, than that's good enough for McMahon.

But then it goes back to the point of Hogan basically only appearing for that one match.

What the hell are you talking about? We've already established that Hogan appeared at the HOF, Wrestlemania, Backlash, and several Raws. What is this only appearing for one match nonsense?

Well thanks for all the links, I'll look at them. And yeah I remember the Shawn Khali match, and I'll admit the match Cena got out of him was better, and is probably Khali's best match. Cena did something I didn't think was possible when it comes to Khali.

You're welcome for the links, hopefully you remember how bad the HBK match with Khali was, and Cena getting the best out of Khali was not a coincidence. He brings the best out in people all the time because he is that damn good.

Let's look back. In the last three years, what would you say is RVD's best match? His match against Cena? I know that's what I'd say. How about Edge? What's been his best match? There's a couple choices here, but Cena/Edge from Unforgiven TLC match is one of the top three choices. How about Umaga? What's been his best match through his entire WWE career? His match with Cena. What's been HBK's best match since Wrestlemania 21? Probably his match against Cena on Raw. How about Khali? Probably his match with Cena. How about Lashley? Probably his match with Cena. How about Randy Orton? Couple choices here, but his Summerslam match with Cena is one of the top 3 choices.

Notice a pattern here? Is there any thing you would disagree with there?

I class that as someone who doesn't need huge gimmicks or anything just to put on a maybe simple, yet effective bunch of wrestling moves and by doing so makes the audience see a good wrestling match. (When I say that I mean 'technical' wrestling)

And therein lies your biggest problem.

Moves have nothing to do with being a good wrestler. See my "You've been worked" thread. Moves are completely arbitrary to good wrestling. What's more important than moves are psychology, storytelling, transitions, workrate, selling and a few other things. THAT is what makes a good wrestler. It doesn't matter what moves you do, if one does those things I mentioned, they will be a good wrestler. They can wrestle like HBK, or Mysterio, or Cena, or Hogan, or Benoit, or Hart, or Savage. It doesn't matter. All those greats are very very good in those categories, which is what makes them good wrestlers.

I aren't saying that. I don't believe any one person has ever carried the WWE single handedly, because it isn't possible. And Hogan deserves the credit he gets for it, but it wasn't just him. It will never be jus one wrestler. It was never just Hogan during this time. It was never just Shawn durong the Monday Night Wars, and these last few years it was never just Cena.

But with all that collection of talent, how come Hogan was the top guy? How come he held the belt for 4 straight years? You think the other guys just stepped aside and said "Hey Vinny. I know Hulk sucks, but you can leave the belt on him."? Of course not. Hulk Hogan was a phenomenal wrestler, which is why he drew so well.

Or maybe that's just my opinion on watching the match, just like you have yours?

Do me a favor then. Compare this match with others, and tell why this match was better than Hogan/Warrior, Hogan/Slaughter, Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Rock, Hogan/Andre or any other of Hogans matches. Why was THIS one so good? I've given my reasons on why it's not. What's your reasons on why it is?

Shawn didn't act like that during the match though. And they could have done so much more if there had been a proper feud. No that wasn't Shawn saying he wouldn't do it, it was WWE creative not taking the chance.

You really should watch the match again.

Ya well Haas needs the mask gimmick lol. Yeah Cena and Shawn are both talented They both do different things really well. It makes sense "the talent to make people care, which is ultimately the most important aspect of any pro wrestler". There are a lot of ways to make people care about the match and both Cena and Shawn can do this.

Precisely. And THAT'S the talent that matters in pro wrestling. Not if one can do a bunch of flips, or run fast or do a bunch of cool moves that are completely unrealistic. What matters is being able to make people care. John Cena and HBK do that which is why they are both so damn good.

Give Shawn the WWE championship and he would. People would pay to see Shawn win the championship one last time. It would be huge. It's like a lot of people have said, people will believe what the WWE tells them, so when the WWE pushes Cena down their throats people will believe he is the greatest (This is an example not a dig at him). It's all about the push wrestlers recieve these days, and i don't think creative are going to give that to Shawn.

This is just a convenient excuse. The WWE hasn't pushed anyone down people's throats. That's just another reason haters give to justify their mistaken beliefs. The WWE is in the business of giving people what they want. And, ratings, buyrates and merchandise sales all tell the same story. Fans want John Cena more than any other wrestler. And have even before he was champion. Maybe Shawn would draw as well, and maybe he wouldn't. Unless it happens, there's no way of knowing. But there is nothing HBK's history that would suggest he would.

And in all seriousness, people don't go to see wrestling live just because of Cena. They don't watch it just because of him or any other one person. It's a whole package.

No, but just like Hogan in the 80s, a lot MORE people go to watch if Cena is on the card than if he's not. He's not the only draw, but he is the difference between 10 fans going and 15 fans going.

 

[HBK-aholic]

But that doesnt take away from the millions and millions who adored him

Once again, I aren't trying to do that. But I don't have to agree with the millions. I aren't saying well everyone else must be wrong, but I have my own opinion on it.

Yes, they are both power hungry, and greedy, who do not like putting people over. Its an easy comparison.

Hell I don't think anyone enjoyed the job, but does he do it? Yes. Just look at the matches with Kennedy recently. I'm sure you'll say he ober-sold something, but a lot of people will agree this has been one of the best matches on Raw recently. It was a new feud, something a lot of people wanted to see.

I dont get where you are going, you said he easily made the top five... I mentioned five people, and he barely made the top five.

And I'm mentioning my top 5, and I didn't put him first in that list, but he's in it easily.

This is what you said

Thus is what I said

you were criticizing WWE PPVs... I went on to say they get good buyrates, and people are into their matches... they must be doing something right

All I'm saying is that we buy them before we know what the match is going to be like. We buy PPV's because of the hype and the superstars involved. We don't watch it then decide whether it is worth the money. And this isn't a critiscm, there's no way it could be. It's just the truth.

But you are not giving Cena any credit, outside of the money part. He held is own in the sixty minute match. So i dont see where you are going when you praise someone, and you arent giving the opponent any credit, when he went 60 minutes, and he took HBK to the max. He made HBK work in that match, and he brought out a side in HBK you havent seen in years

That's because I do not think he is a great athlete when it comes to in-ring ability. You don't have to agree, but that's what I see. I know we had a conversation on msn about him only having about 5 moves, but so does everybody. What matters is how they put them together to form a great match. It's like an art-form. And I just don't see the appeal of how John Cena does that.

But saying he revolutionized tag team wrestling is ignorance. They were a good team, but he didnt revolutionize tag team wrestling. Thats like kicking the greats right where it hurts.

Stringing together moves? What does that have to do with anything? The Dudleyz are great, they are like a 20 time champion, and they have held tag team gold on so many levels. I honestly dont see where you are heading

Well I'm not doing that. In the tag team thread I've already said I voted for the Dudley Boyz. They are the best tag team ever to set foot in the ring. But they weren't around when The Rockers were, and if the Rockers were around during the competitive race for Championship between the Hardyz, Edge and Christian and the Dudleys along with others,they wouldn't have stood a chance. But what they did was very new to the Tag Team division at the time. And if you can't see that you haven't watched that many tag team matches.

Austin does have a huge ego, and i criticize him for having one.. But if i remember correctly, he retired after losing a match. Yes if he doesn't get his way he walked out. But this isnt about Austin here, so i dont see where you are going. Austin is a bigger draw, he should get what he wants to an extent. He didnt like the story lines he was involved in, that is why he walked away.

You have double standards here. Shawn has done just as much for the WWE, and he hasn't walked out just because he lost a match. Yet Austin should get what he wants even a little? Not fair IMO.

But you brought up passion and determination, just because he is passionate doesnt make him the best. I fail to see where you are going with this... I was once a passionate writer, but it doesn't make me the best.. I was determined to finish my grad project, but it doesnt make me the best.

It doesn't make him THE best but the more passion you have for something you're already good at, the more effort you'll put into it. End of story.

But you still fail to see why his fans are ecstatic. He is an entertainer, and a damned good one. He is pretty good for a guy his size, and is one helluva wrestler.

I understand why his fans are ecstatic, and he earned that back in the day, but now no matter what he does he can have the fans going wild. He's so over it doesn't matter what he does. All he has to do is put his hand to his ear and the crowd goes wild.

What his fan base? When you watch Raw, or watch a ppv, look at the people that are cheering him? They range in age.. They might not buy his merchandise, but they pay to see Cena

They don't pay to see Cena. They pay to see the WWE. That involves Cena, but it isn't all because of him. The ratings haven't exactly gone down now Cena is injured. There are still people paying to go to the shows. And whether Cena was there or not, ask everyone on this board if they had a chance to see WWE live they'd still take it.

They are entertainers. Thats what their job is. If you want actual wrestling, try high school or college wrestling. You know the thing Angle won gold in...

I am also a fan of this type of wrestling. And the WWE needs its 'entertainers' I've said that before. It needs the mix of both.

Yeah because we pay to see HBK over sell and look like a complete baby

Yeah that's obviously what he did. He was in that match. He worked. Maybe not his best match but was still good.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yes.

And, it is true. There was supposed to be a Wrestlemania 12 rematch, which pitted Hart vs. Michaels, and Michaels was to return the favor to Hart. However, because of their real life feud, Michaels basically refused to lose to Hart, and then "lost his smile", which meant that the WWF had to scramble to put together ANOTHER Hart vs. Austin match.

Wasn't it Bret Hart who had to be 'screwed' out of the championship because he refused to drop it to Shawn? Hmm thought so.
Also that whoe speech thing wasn't simply not to drop the belt to Hart. And Hart V Austin wasn't exactly rushed, it was a good match.

Gimmicks only last until the bell. At that point it is up to Cena to entertain people, which he has done for the last two and a half years. How do I know he's entertained people? Because people continue to pay to watch him wrestle.

And while 10 people on this forum may agree that Cena is boring in the ring, MILLIONS of fans all over the world agree that Cena is highly entertaining. And as long as those fans are paying more money to see Cena than anyone else, than that's good enough for McMahon.

People don't just pay for him though. Everyone on this board seems to think the only reason people watch wrestling is because of Cena.
NOT TRUE. There is a lot more talent and reasons people watch it.

I may only be in the minority of non-Cena fans, but that doesn't mean my opinion is anything less than yours or anyone elses for that matter. We all watch the same show, but think differently about what makes a good wrestler.

What the hell are you talking about? We've already established that Hogan appeared at the HOF, Wrestlemania, Backlash, and several Raws. What is this only appearing for one match nonsense?

And where is Hogan now? When was the last time we heard from him? Is he putting on solid matches every week? He wasn't even doing that before the match with Shawn. It was Hogan's ego that wouldn't allow him to lose, not Shawn's.

You're welcome for the links, hopefully you remember how bad the HBK match with Khali was, and Cena getting the best out of Khali was not a coincidence. He brings the best out in people all the time because he is that damn good.

I know it wasn't a coincidence, I've praised Cena for that match, it was the best match Khali has been in, and that was all down to Cena. He did what I thought was impossible.

Also yeah I've watched the Lashley Cena one now, good match I agree. I don't know if I'd have it as a match of the yar contender, but it was really good. I may have missed that match when watching GAB, because I didn't remember what happened. So I apologise for that.

Let's look back. In the last three years, what would you say is RVD's best match? His match against Cena? I know that's what I'd say. How about Edge? What's been his best match? There's a couple choices here, but Cena/Edge from Unforgiven TLC match is one of the top three choices. How about Umaga? What's been his best match through his entire WWE career? His match with Cena. What's been HBK's best match since Wrestlemania 21? Probably his match against Cena on Raw. How about Khali? Probably his match with Cena. How about Lashley? Probably his match with Cena. How about Randy Orton? Couple choices here, but his Summerslam match with Cena is one of the top 3 choices.

Notice a pattern here? Is there any thing you would disagree with there?

RVD - Probably against Cena
Edge - Had a good match with Kennedy last year regarding Money in the bank. Cena Adge I didn't like that much, but I think that's to do with the tpe of match. TLC works better for the tag teams IMO. I used to love them.
Umaga - With Cena.
HBK - Match with Cena on Raw definately up there. The matches with Kennedy recently have been good. And he and Edge had a good match at Judgement day. Also up until Shawn collapsed, at Judgement Day he and Orton had a good match.
Lashley - Cena is the one that comes to mind, but that might be because I've watche it very recently. It was good though. Hoever he also had some good matches with JBL.
Orton - The match with Shawn at Judgement Day was good until the ending. Cena was also good.

And therein lies your biggest problem.

Moves have nothing to do with being a good wrestler. See my "You've been worked" thread. Moves are completely arbitrary to good wrestling. What's more important than moves are psychology, storytelling, transitions, workrate, selling and a few other things. THAT is what makes a good wrestler. It doesn't matter what moves you do, if one does those things I mentioned, they will be a good wrestler. They can wrestle like HBK, or Mysterio, or Cena, or Hogan, or Benoit, or Hart, or Savage. It doesn't matter. All those greats are very very good in those categories, which is what makes them good wrestlers.

Yeah I replied in your thread. Moves ARE needed though. Without that wrestling turns into nothing more than a soap. It's World Wrestling Entertainment - Therefore we also need the Wrestling aspect. A good match can be put on without them, but a great match mixes the 2.

But with all that collection of talent, how come Hogan was the top guy? How come he held the belt for 4 straight years? You think the other guys just stepped aside and said "Hey Vinny. I know Hulk sucks, but you can leave the belt on him."? Of course not. Hulk Hogan was a phenomenal wrestler, which is why he drew so well.

He was phenomenal at working the crowd yes. He has all those things you just described as what you think makes a great wrestler. He was brilliant at it, and that in itself gives him reason to be champion. But very few wrestlers have the full in-ring ability as someone such as Kurt Angle, who is great.

Do me a favor then. Compare this match with others, and tell why this match was better than Hogan/Warrior, Hogan/Slaughter, Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Rock, Hogan/Andre or any other of Hogans matches. Why was THIS one so good? I've given my reasons on why it's not. What's your reasons on why it is?

You really should watch the match again.

I did in the middle of this debate actually. And still I see none of the 'overselling' you have described by Shawn. I class this match as one of Hogan's best because of how much effort he put into it. Because pretty much no matter what he did the crowd loved it. They followed every move and were into it. Because before Hogan left he lost a little of the greatness that had made him famous, and made the matches you described so good. I think this put Hogan back up there.

Precisely. And THAT'S the talent that matters in pro wrestling. Not if one can do a bunch of flips, or run fast or do a bunch of cool moves that are completely unrealistic. What matters is being able to make people care. John Cena and HBK do that which is why they are both so damn good.

When I say wrestling meaning in - ring ability, I don't mean unrealistic. I just mean the way they can put everything together. I don't mean like an acrobat flying everywhere, just a simple match is nice. But I agree. That's what matters. And they can both do it.

This is just a convenient excuse. The WWE hasn't pushed anyone down people's throats. That's just another reason haters give to justify their mistaken beliefs. The WWE is in the business of giving people what they want. And, ratings, buyrates and merchandise sales all tell the same story. Fans want John Cena more than any other wrestler. And have even before he was champion. Maybe Shawn would draw as well, and maybe he wouldn't. Unless it happens, there's no way of knowing. But there is nothing HBK's history that would suggest he would.

The beliefs aren't 'mistaken' any more than yours are. Fans but Cena's merchandise because he was cool. His gimmicwas great, and he was a breath of fresh air. I'll admit I was a Cena fan in his earlier days with the rapping. He reminded me of Chris Jericho who I like. However I think he lost of a lot originality when he became champion. I'd have probably still been a fan if he'd continued how he was before. But he changed to become Champion material. It's what happens.

No, but just like Hogan in the 80s, a lot MORE people go to watch if Cena is on the card than if he's not. He's not the only draw, but he is the difference between 10 fans going and 15 fans going.

I disagree. People have said this about Hogan in the 80's, Shawn in the 90's, and Cena in the 00's. It isn't true. WWE do not get an extra 50% of fans just because of one person. A few % maybe, but not 50. VERY few people go to a show just for one person. And I can't say I like wrestling fans who do, because if that person left, so would they.

 

[BooCocky]

Once again, I aren't trying to do that. But I don't have to agree with the millions. I aren't saying well everyone else must be wrong, but I have my own opinion on it.

Once again one fan is not gonna change the whole industry, so Mr McMahon is not worrying about one fan and their hatred for John Cena

Hell I don't think anyone enjoyed the job, but does he do it? Yes. Just look at the matches with Kennedy recently. I'm sure you'll say he ober-sold something, but a lot of people will agree this has been one of the best matches on Raw recently. It was a new feud, something a lot of people wanted to see.

Wait, the job to Kennedy? The way Kennedy won looked like freak accidents, Michaels took his eyes off of something for one second and Michaels hit the Mic Check, I really wouldn't call that jobbing. It was a clean win, but it was made because Kennedy capitalized on the mistake... Michaels was getting the majority of the offense, and Kennedy won on one mistake

And I'm mentioning my top 5, and I didn't put him first in that list, but he's in it easily.

In the form of drawing power? Gimme a break, he is lucky to make a top six or seven.

All I'm saying is that we buy them before we know what the match is going to be like. We buy PPV's because of the hype and the superstars involved. We don't watch it then decide whether it is worth the money. And this isn't a critiscm, there's no way it could be. It's just the truth.

Is it the card that attracts you into buying the PPV? I am not gonna buy a PPV headlined by Funaki and Shannon Moore. How is it the truth when countless people enjoy thteir weekly shows and monthly PPV's?

That's because I do not think he is a great athlete when it comes to in-ring ability. You don't have to agree, but that's what I see. I know we had a conversation on msn about him only having about 5 moves, but so does everybody. What matters is how they put them together to form a great match. It's like an art-form. And I just don't see the appeal of how John Cena does that.

moves mean nothing, it is how ou perform those moves, and Cena performs those moves effectively, outside of a botch here and their, but everyone botches moves. How isn't Cena a great athlete, he played college sports, he was capable of going 60 minutes in a match and that takes athleticism... Not a lot of people on that roster could go a flat out sixty minutes. If Cena wasn't athletic he wouldn't be where he is today.

Well I'm not doing that. In the tag team thread I've already said I voted for the Dudley Boyz. They are the best tag team ever to set foot in the ring. But they weren't around when The Rockers were,

The Rockers formed in 1986. Then looking at the far greater tag teams, The Road Warriors debuted in 1983, The Brain Busters debuted in 1986. So the Road Warriors were around before the Rockers, The Fab Freebirds debuted in 1979, and were like the original tag team, so i have no idea hwere you are heading with this.

and if the Rockers were around during the competitive race for Championship between the Hardyz, Edge and Christian and the Dudleys along with others,they wouldn't have stood a chance. But what they did was very new to the Tag Team division at the time. And if you can't see that you haven't watched that many tag team matches.

I've seen enough to form an opinion, and i am curious to see how they revolutionized tag team wrestling? I just dont see it.

You have double standards here. Shawn has done just as much for the WWE, and he hasn't walked out just because he lost a match. Yet Austin should get what he wants even a little? Not fair IMO.

Austin was the bigger name, and made more money for the business, IMO he should get what he wants to an extent. He didn't walk away to shove it to the fans, he walked away because he did not like the story lines he was in.

It doesn't make him THE best but the more passion you have for something you're already good at, the more effort you'll put into it. End of story.

How is it the end of story, I fail to see where you are going. Well I guarantee a lot of those superstars are passionate about the business, because if i wasn't passionate, i wouldn't travel nearly every day of the year. I still fail to see where you are heading with the determination and passionate story.

I understand why his fans are ecstatic, and he earned that back in the day, but now no matter what he does he can have the fans going wild. He's so over it doesn't matter what he does. All he has to do is put his hand to his ear and the crowd goes wild.

Because he is that good... End of Story

They don't pay to see Cena. They pay to see the WWE. That involves Cena, but it isn't all because of him. The ratings haven't exactly gone down now Cena is injured. There are still people paying to go to the shows. And whether Cena was there or not, ask everyone on this board if they had a chance to see WWE live they'd still take it.

Yeah because we as fans pay for 3 minute squashes, and womans matches that are over in 10 seconds. Gimme a break, he is the biggest draw, and people pay to see Cena

Yeah that's obviously what he did. He was in that match. He worked. Maybe not his best match but was still good.

Michaels looked like a whiny little school child when someone took the ball and went home. hogan made that match good, not the illogical spots of HBK.

And where is Hogan now?

He is 54... He was able to walk away from the business. he didn't wanna be Ric Flair

When was the last time we heard from him? Is he putting on solid matches every week? He wasn't even doing that before the match with Shawn. It was Hogan's ego that wouldn't allow him to lose, not Shawn's.

First of all he is retired, second of all, what does he need to prove? It was Shawns ego that made Shawn become illogical with his spots and horrible selling, not Hogans. Hogan is the greatest thing in sports entertainment. He should not lose when people paid to see him win... That would have been a horrible business decision.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Once again one fan is not gonna change the whole industry, so Mr McMahon is not worrying about one fan and their hatred for John Cena

I'm sure we were talking about Hogan.

Wait, the job to Kennedy? The way Kennedy won looked like freak accidents, Michaels took his eyes off of something for one second and Michaels hit the Mic Check, I really wouldn't call that jobbing. It was a clean win, but it was made because Kennedy capitalized on the mistake... Michaels was getting the majority of the offense, and Kennedy won on one mistake

You'll just never be happy. You are a hater of Shawn. Shawn has lost to Kennedy cleanly without any 'over-selling' or anything of the sort.

In the form of drawing power? Gimme a break, he is lucky to make a top six or seven.

In the form of everything. Overall Shawn deserves his spot in the Top 5 very much.

Is it hte card that attracts you into buying the PPV? I am not gonna buy a PPV headlined by Funaki and Shannon Moore. How is it the truth when countless people enjoy hteir weekly shows and monthly PPV's?

I aren't meaning this in any way as critisicm whether you take it as that or not. It's true we buy the PPV's before seeing them.

moves mean nothing, it is how ou perform those moves, and Cena performs those moves effectively, outside of a botch here and their, but everyone botches moves. How isn't Cena a great athlete, he played college sports, he was capable of going 60 minutes in a match and that takes athleticism... Not a lot of people on that roster could go a flat out sixty minutes. If Cena wasn't athletic he wouldn't be where he is today.

Cena doesn't perform those moves effectively at all. Everyone botches moves at some point, it has nothing to do with that. He just can't put them together in a very effective way.

The Rockers formed in 1986. Then looking at the far greater tag teams, The Road Warriors debuted in 1983, The Brain Busters debuted in 1986. So the Road Warriors were around before the Rockers, The Fab Freebirds debuted in 1979, and were like the original tag team, so i have no idea hwere you are heading with this. I've seen enough to form an opinion, and i am curious to see how they revolutionized tag team wrestling? I just dont see it.

They aren't exactly legendary teams though. There were tag teams before The Rockers obviously, but watch a Road Warriers match, then watch a Dudley Boyz match. I aren't saying the Road Warriors weren't good, tbh I haven't seen that many of their matches to say that either way, but from what I have seen of before The Rockers, they were ahead of time.

Austin was the bigger name, and made more money for the business, IMO he should get what he wants to an extent. He didn't walk away to shove it to the fans, he walked away because he did not like the story lines he was in.

And Shawn would do anything to 'shove it to the fans'? He's just as good as Austin was. Maybe people don't see it because he doesn't leave the WWE and then return every year for a few appearances like the rest of them.
If Austin should get what he wants to an extent, so should Shawn.

How is it the end of story, I fail to see where you are going. Well I guarantee a lot of those superstars are passionate about the business, because if i wasn't passionate, i wouldn't travel nearly every day of the year. I still fail to see where you are heading with the determination and passionate story.

That's basically all I'm going to. The more passion you have for something the more effort you'll put into it, the better you'll be. And I definately aren't saying the others don't have passion, because you have to to be a wrestler. You can just see it more in some wrestlers styles. Shawn, Cena, Kennedy for a few examples.

Because he is that good... End of Story

Because he is that over now anything will excite the audience.

Yeah because we as fans pay for 3 minute squashes, and womans matches that are over in 10 seconds. Gimme a break, he is the biggest draw, and people pay to see Cena

Cena is not the only talent on the roster. Without him we don't have only 3 minute matches and Diva matches. We have other decent matches. And everyone's saying this, but where's the evidence? The ratings haven't gone down, and they can still fill up arenas regardless of Cena being injured.

Michaels looked like a whiny little school child when someone took the ball and went home. hogan made that match good, not the illogical spots of HBK.

Shawn worked in that match, as he does every other match. He didn't 'oversell' anything.

He is 54... He was able to walk away from the business. he didn't wanna be Ric Flair

Well then there was no point for him to come back for that that match.

First of all he is retired, second of all, what does he need to prove? It was Shawns ego that made Shawn become illogical with his spots and horrible selling, not Hogans. Hogan is the greatest thing in sports entertainment. He should not lose when people paid to see him win... That would have been a horrible business decision.[/QUOTE]

Hogan probably came back because Shawn is one of the best and he was feeling so down from being out of the spotlight for so long. He needed to satisfy himself so he came back and said he wanted to beat Shawn.
If the WWE let everyone the fans wanted to win, win, the WWe would get very boring very quickly.

 

[BooCocky]

I'm sure we were talking about Hogan.

If you knew who i was talking about why did you correct?

You'll just never be happy. You are a hater of Shawn. Shawn has lost to Kennedy cleanly without any 'over-selling' or anything of the sort.

not a Shawn hater, i just think he is an overrated egotist, who if he doesnt get his way he whines like a little child and tries to show up the young one... Take their first match when Kennedy botched a neck breaker, HBK after that was working stiff, trying to show up Kennedy. Kennedy didnt win clean he one by capitalizing on a mistake... i.e Jeff Hardy vs HHH

In the form of everything. Overall Shawn deserves his spot in the Top 5 very much.

How, he isn't even a top draw? He isn't now, and will never ever be. You just can't grasp that. Shawn Michaels can't draw, he was never a draw, he was in the spotlight behind real greats like Austin, the Rock, Hogan, and Undertaker, and possibly Foley, who isn't scared to job cleanly to someone.. You can basically that Foley for the Edge of today, and the Randy Orton of today.

I aren't meaning this in any way as critisicm whether you take it as that or not. It's true we buy the PPV's before seeing them.

but you know the card. So you are buying it for some reason, not a match headlined with Daddy V and Mark Henry

Cena doesn't perform those moves effectively at all.

How doesn't he, he gets pops, and people pop for his moves, he has modified the STFU, he uses a standing firemans carry, he uses a neck breaker, where they are all performed effectively... His Fu only Khali was done very effective, and Khali is well over 400 pounds. Cena never shows up his fellow worker, and he is capable of working with everyone on his roster.

Everyone botches moves at some point, it has nothing to do with that. He just can't put them together in a very effective way.

Explain? He works on the head, neck and mid section, then performs a special move, either the one for the back, or the one that strains the neck.. they're pretty effective.

They aren't exactly legendary teams though. There were tag teams before The Rockers obviously, but watch a Road Warriers match, then watch a Dudley Boyz match. I aren't saying the Road Warriors weren't good, tbh I haven't seen that many of their matches to say that either way, but from what I have seen of before The Rockers, they were ahead of time.

Road Warriors not legendary? Lawlz, that is ignorance.. The Fab Freebirds, Not legendary? Thats ignorance, they were a very effective stable, and they had it all, the entrance, and were a really good team. The Brainbusters, are a top five team of all time, and o yeah, i forgot to mention the Hart Foundation ( I think), they are one of the all time greats, and a very effective team, Hart was the ability, and the Anvil was the power.

And Shawn would do anything to 'shove it to the fans'? He's just as good as Austin was.

Why didnt he draw as good as Austin did? Because he wasn't as good as Austin.

Maybe people don't see it because he doesn't leave the WWE and then return every year for a few appearances like the rest of them.
If Austin should get what he wants to an extent, so should Shawn.

Austin was a top draw, HBK was never a top individual draw. Thats why Austin should get what he wants to an extent. Austin didnt like the storylines, he never showed it up to the fans... Michaels is egotist. Austin was a stubborn man, who didnt like his story line. Austin was the best thing in the Attitude ERA. Austin/Rock IC feud, imo began everything.

That's basically all I'm going to. The more passion you have for something the more effort you'll put into it, the better you'll be. And I definately aren't saying the others don't have passion, because you have to to be a wrestler. You can just see it more in some wrestlers styles. Shawn, Cena, Kennedy for a few examples.

Kennedy has no confidence, and you can see it in his style, he changes his moves all the time because he isnt confident in them. Cena is a hard worker, and a stellar performer, and HBK is a good worker, but isnt what he use to be.

Because he is that over now anything will excite the audience.

Undertaker is that over, and his match with Henry didnt excite the audience.. Why is that? If Hogan has a bad match he can grasp the fans, because he can control the crowd to make em into the match.

Cena is not the only talent on the roster. Without him we don't have only 3 minute matches and Diva matches. We have other decent matches. And everyone's saying this, but where's the evidence? The ratings haven't gone down, and they can still fill up arenas regardless of Cena being injured.

But Cena has been a main eventer for like 2 years, he puts on solid matches every week, he has been in the Main Event scene for quite sometime, and he always gives a solid performance. The ratings have been going down, and they go up. The week after he was injured they went down, and his merchandise sales are still good, so apparently Cena has some effect. 4.2 was the highest rating in 2007 i believe outside the Anniversary show. The ratings since Cena left has yet to hit that, apparently he is a draw. Cena is a draw, and ratings show that.

Shawn worked in that match, as he does every other match. He didn't 'oversell' anything.

The big boot where he fell and bounced right up? The punches in the corner where he flipped over the ropes, the shoulder thrust. When Michaels got knocked over the ropes? He got up and rolled over it... Here is HBK's overselling... This is proof watch the video then comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3R0...restlezone.com/showthread.php?t=15828&page=26
*anxiously awaits to hear the excuses of how that isn't overselling*

Well then there was no point for him to come back for that that match.

There was no need for HBK to come back when he was out with an injury in 07. He didnt boost the ratings.
Hogan came for the fans, and too boost the ratings, he came back to excite the crowd. He came for the fans.... Big draws usually come back.

First of all he is retired, second of all, what does he need to prove? It was Shawns ego that made Shawn become illogical with his spots and horrible selling, not Hogans. Hogan is the greatest thing in sports entertainment. He should not lose when people paid to see him win... That would have been a horrible business decision.

DIdnt i say this?

Hogan probably came back because Shawn is one of the best and he was feeling so down from being out of the spotlight for so long. .

He came back for the fans, he came back to excite the crowd, and he came back to perform infront of the Hulkamaniacs.

He needed to satisfy himself so he came back and said he wanted to beat Shawn.
If the WWE let everyone the fans wanted to win, win, the WWe would get very boring very quickly

It is whats best for the company... The good guy over coming the bad guy.. Its like a super hero movie.. Everyone wants to see Superman capture Lex Luther. Having the face win is what the fans want, and thats what the fans pay to see

 

[HBK-aholic]

If you knew who i was talking about why did you correct?

Because you said John Cena.

not a Shawn hater, i just think he is an overrated egotist, who if he doesnt get his way he whines like a little child and tries to show up the young one... Take their first match when Kennedy botched a neck breaker, HBK after that was working stiff, trying to show up Kennedy. Kennedy didnt win clean he one by capitalizing on a mistake... i.e Jeff Hardy vs HHH

You're a Shawn hater. Wrestlers take advantage of opponents mistakes it's what happens. You can't let that take away from the fact he cleanly won the match.

How, he isn't even a top draw? He isn't now, and will never ever be. You just can't grasp that. Shawn Michaels can't draw, he was never a draw, he was in the spotlight behind real greats like Austin, the Rock, Hogan, and Undertaker, and possibly Foley, who isn't scared to job cleanly to someone.. You can basically that Foley for the Edge of today, and the Randy Orton of today.

We're just going around in circles. I've already given you the reasons Shawn should be in the Top 5. But he is a great wrestler, he has done loads for the business, he has a whole country hating him and doesn't care. He is a great wrestler, can work the crowd and deserves a spot up there.

but you know the card. So you are buying it for some reason, not a match headlined with Daddy V and Mark Henry

Yeah but any match can turn awful. Some matches with the best legends in can turn into bad matches. And I buy all the PPV's regardless.

How doesn't he, he gets pops, and people pop for his moves, he has modified the STFU, he uses a standing firemans carry, he uses a neck breaker, where they are all performed effectively... His Fu only Khali was done very effective, and Khali is well over 400 pounds. Cena never shows up his fellow worker, and he is capable of working with everyone on his roster.

Explain? He works on the head, neck and mid section, then performs a special move, either the one for the back, or the one that strains the neck.. they're pretty effective.

Most wrestlers can work with anyone else on the roster. Cena can do moves singularly well, but as I said before it's an art-form to put them all together in a good way and how he does doesn't appeal to me.

Road Warriors not legendary? Lawlz, that is ignorance.. The Fab Freebirds, Not legendary? Thats ignorance, they were a very effective stable, and they had it all, the entrance, and were a really good team. The Brainbusters, are a top five team of all time, and o yeah, i forgot to mention the Hart Foundation ( I think), they are one of the all time greats, and a very effective team, Hart was the ability, and the Anvil was the power.

For the time they probably were, as I said I aren't going to pretend to know a lot about them because I don't. So they may have had great matches. I aren't going to say either way because I've seen few matches.

Why didnt he draw as good as Austin did? Because he wasn't as good as Austin.

Austin was a top draw, HBK was never a top individual draw. Thats why Austin should get what he wants to an extent. Austin didnt like the storylines, he never showed it up to the fans... Michaels is egotist. Austin was a stubborn man, who didnt like his story line. Austin was the best thing in the Attitude ERA. Austin/Rock IC feud, imo began everything.

No. If one legend should get what he wants they all should.In the Attitude era Austin was the best thing to happen. He practically made the attitude era I know he did. I aren't taking away from that. All I'm saying is that Shawn should get it if he does.

Kennedy has no confidence, and you can see it in his style, he changes his moves all the time because he isnt confident in them. Cena is a hard worker, and a stellar performer, and HBK is a good worker, but isnt what he use to be.

Hopefully him winning the feud against Shawn will make him a lot more confident. He deserves it anyway. But all three have great passion for the business.

Undertaker is that over, and his match with Henry didnt excite the audience.. Why is that? If Hogan has a bad match he can grasp the fans, because he can control the crowd to make em into the match.

All Taker has to do in a match is sit up when on the floor and the audience goes wild.

But Shawn has been a main eventer for like 2 years, he puts on solid matches every week, he has been in the Main Event scene for quite sometime, and he always gives a solid performance. The ratings have been going down, and they go up. The week after he was injured they went down, and his merchandise sales are still good, so apparently Cena has some effect. 4.2 was the highest rating in 2007 i believe outside the Anniversary show. The ratings since Cena left has yet to hit that, apparently he is a draw. Cena is a draw, and ratings show that.

But the ratings have, as you said, being going up and down all year. And Cena isn't a reason for tha particularly. Everyone is acting as if due to Cena millions wouldn't watch wrestling. I think at one point Sly said the rate of fans is 50% more because of Cena. Obviously not due to the figures.

The big boot where he fell and bounced right up? The punches in the corner where he flipped over the ropes, the shoulder thrust. When Michaels got knocked over the ropes? He got up and rolled over it... Here is HBK's overselling... This is proof watch the video then comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3R0...restlezone.com/showthread.php?t=15828&page=26
*anxiously awaits to hear the excuses of how that isn't overselling*

And you don't think he was entertaining people there? Seriously? The only one I'd class as 'overselling' by what you mean is the part where he gets thrown over the ropes. But watch the proper match. A lot of them are taken out of context in this video. And the psychology behind the music of the video is biased in trying to get everyone to believe Shawn made a mockery of this match. Which in all fairness, the idea of the match was a mockery.

There was no need for HBK to come back when he was out with an injury in 07. He didnt boost the ratings.
Hogan came for the fans, and too boost the ratings, he came back to excite the crowd. He came for the fans.... Big draws usually come back.

DIdnt i say this?

He came back for the fans, he came back to excite the crowd, and he came back to perform infront of the Hulkamaniacs.

Shawn came back for the fans, and because he loves the business. If he was in the same position as Hogan, coming back when he feels like it each year, how far would the ratings go up then? A lot.

It is whats best for the company... The good guy over coming the bad guy.. Its like a super hero movie.. Everyone wants to see Superman capture Lex Luther. Having the face win is what the fans want, and thats what the fans pay to see

Yeah but this is always done at the end of a feud. Both get a few wins and then it ends usually on a big stage such as it a PPV. There was no point in this match.

 

[X]

not a Shawn hater, i just think he is an overrated egotist, who if he doesnt get his way he whines like a little child and tries to show up the young one... Take their first match when Kennedy botched a neck breaker, HBK after that was working stiff, trying to show up Kennedy. Kennedy didnt win clean he one by capitalizing on a mistake... i.e Jeff Hardy vs HHH

Explain how HBK is overrated, or an egotist. Please, explain. Must we once again go over the definition of the word overrated? To be considered by the majority of people better then one truly is? Considering the world considers HBK to be one of the most legendary wrestlers of all time who put on some of the greatest matches in wrestling history, explain how that assumption is wrong. Are you saying HBK isn't a legend? That he hasn't put on countless five star classics? Maybe he's "overrated" in your mind, but that doesn't make it true.

And an egotist? How so? Because you believe every single smark story about HBK thats been told to you? Explain how he's an egotist. He's put over so much talent its ridiculious, and he still gets no credit. Why is he an egotist? And don't reply with "Oh because he refuses to drop the belt to people" when in fact every single situation in which HBK supposedly "refused" to drop the belt has a perfectly legit explanation that people tend to forget about, despite zero evidence to the contrary.

How, he isn't even a top draw? He isn't now, and will never ever be. You just can't grasp that. Shawn Michaels can't draw, he was never a draw, he was in the spotlight behind real greats like Austin, the Rock, Hogan, and Undertaker, and possibly Foley, who isn't scared to job cleanly to someone.. You can basically that Foley for the Edge of today, and the Randy Orton of today.

HBK is most certainly a top draw. DX remains one of the most popular and most profitable inventions in wrestling history. HBK's program with Stone Cold helped catapult the WWF ahead of WCW in the ratings war. HBK wasn't a top draw in his physical prime, thats true, but to say he isn't a draw when he's headling PPV after PPV after PPV is just totally fucking ignorant. This years Wrestlemania had its best buy rate ever---and who was in the main event? HBK thats right. HBK is a top draw and always will be.

And Foley was never a good draw. Ever. I'm a huge Foley mark, but the man is just not over with the fans. Not todays fans. He's over with the old school fans. Every time Foley has come out this year it has been to a reaction of crickets. And it's sad, but true. Foley has never been a draw. Thats why he was never champion for more then two weeks.

Austin was a top draw, HBK was never a top individual draw. Thats why Austin should get what he wants to an extent. Austin didnt like the storylines, he never showed it up to the fans... Michaels is egotist. Austin was a stubborn man, who didnt like his story line. Austin was the best thing in the Attitude ERA. Austin/Rock IC feud, imo began everything.

The fact that you're criticizing HBK as being an egotist and then praising Austin as not being an egotist is just pure ignorance on your part. Austin quits the WWE everytime he gets drunk and doesn't like how a match ends. The man, while being a legend, is just as stubborn and arrogant as HBK has ever been.

Kennedy has no confidence, and you can see it in his style, he changes his moves all the time because he isnt confident in them. Cena is a hard worker, and a stellar performer, and HBK is a good worker, but isnt what he use to be.

No confidence? And you would know this because of all of your close intimate conversations with Mr. Kennedy? So because he changes his moveset (not "all the time" like you make it sound) that means he isn't confident in himself? Bullshit. Everyone changes their movesets, its called evolution. You evolve into a better wrestler over time. If Kennedy wasn't confident in himself as a wrestler, he wouldn't be out there on live television cutting promos infront of thousands in attendance and millions of people all over the world.

But Cena has been a main eventer for like 2 years, he puts on solid matches every week, he has been in the Main Event scene for quite sometime, and he always gives a solid performance. The ratings have been going down, and they go up. The week after he was injured they went down, and his merchandise sales are still good, so apparently Cena has some effect. 4.2 was the highest rating in 2007 i believe outside the Anniversary show. The ratings since Cena left has yet to hit that, apparently he is a draw. Cena is a draw, and ratings show that.

Ummm....no. Actually ratings in 2007 went down from 2006, not up. Same thing with PPV buyrates (excluding Wrestlemania, which sells itself). To say that he was a draw would mean that he drew more people to the product, when in fact, he alienated more people this year when he dominated the title scene and made every other person he wrestled with the exception of maybe HBK look like a jobber. So if you're going to attribute increasing ratings to the champion at the time, you should attribute decreasing ratings to the same champion.

The big boot where he fell and bounced right up? The punches in the corner where he flipped over the ropes, the shoulder thrust. When Michaels got knocked over the ropes? He got up and rolled over it... Here is HBK's overselling... This is proof watch the video then comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3R0...restlezone.com/showthread.php?t=15828&page=26
*anxiously awaits to hear the excuses of how that isn't overselling*

It sure was overselling. And it's hilarious that you're criticizing HBK for overselling when he's facing the biggest overseller in the history of pro wrestling: Hulk Hogan. The Hulk-Up routine...thats not overselling? How about every single time he's hit when he shakes his fists and gasps in pain like someone just smacked him with a shovel across the back? Please, this is a situation of the kettle calling the pot black.

There was no need for HBK to come back when he was out with an injury in 07. He didnt boost the ratings.
Hogan came for the fans, and too boost the ratings, he came back to excite the crowd. He came for the fans.... Big draws usually come back.

ROFLMAO! Hogan came back for the fans?! AHAHAHAHA! Seriously though, tell me you really didn't just say that? Hogan came back for one damn reason only: MONEY. Thats why he REFUSES to work with the WWE unless his paycheck is bigger then every single person on the roster. If he loved the fans, he wouldn't do that now would he?

No reason for HBK to come back? How about because half of the main event scene became injured in the second half of 2007 and because he is a huge asset to the WWE? Seriously, just stop talking Brian, you continue to punk YOURSELF without any help from me or anyone else.

 

[BooCocky]

Because you said John Cena.

But you knew who i was talking about?

You're a Shawn hater. Wrestlers take advantage of opponents mistakes it's what happens. You can't let that take away from the fact he cleanly won the match.

Kennedy did not win clean, he performed a move on a mistake, making him seem like an opportunist. Kennedy capitalized on a mistake, and facial expressions made the match look like a fluke.

We're just going around in circles. I've already given you the reasons Shawn should be in the Top 5.

No you haven't. what has he done for the business? Nothing, he was taking a back seat to Austin the Rock, Hogan, Taker? Revolutionized tag team wrestling? Thats a lie, and a kick to the all time greats. you have yet to say what he has done for the business that made his runs so remarkable. Yeah because drawing ratings in the low two's is so remarkable

But he is a great wrestler, he has done loads for the business, he has a whole country hating him and doesn't care. He is a great wrestler, can work the crowd and deserves a spot up there.

Woopy. Edge his has his own crowd hating him, but that doesn't make him the greatest heel ever. If he was such a great entertainer he would have more drawing power.

Yeah but any match can turn awful. Some matches with the best legends in can turn into bad matches. And I buy all the PPV's regardless.

But you buy it for the card, because the card appeals to you, and the story behind the matches.

Most wrestlers can work with anyone else on the roster. Cena can do moves singularly well, but as I said before it's an art-form to put them all together in a good way and how he does doesn't appeal to me.

One out of multi millions... Yeah big difference ... It takes two too tango...

For the time they probably were, as I said I aren't going to pretend to know a lot about them because I don't. So they may have had great matches. I aren't going to say either way because I've seen few matches.

but making the Rockers assumption is a kick to the all time greats, you are forming opinions on people you have never seen perform... Watch a Road Warriors, BrainBusters, or Freebirds match. All great tag teams, The Hart Foundation are another great tag team, but coming from oyur an HBK fan so you obviously hate Hart, so you can't form an opinion on people and matches you have never seen..

No. If one legend should get what he wants they all should.In the Attitude era Austin was the best thing to happen. He practically made the attitude era I know he did. I aren't taking away from that. All I'm saying is that Shawn should get it if he does.

It is all about the money.... Hogan made a lot of money, Austin made a lot of money, the Rock made a lot of money, the best and biggest should get some privileges, if Shawn could draw he should be able to get privileges, but he doesn't draw, and to assume he does is ignorance.

All Taker has to do in a match is sit up when on the floor and the audience goes wild.

The crowd was dead during his match when he returned.. He didnt even get a loud pop on his entrance.

But the ratings have, as you said, being going up and down all year. And Cena isn't a reason for tha particularly. Everyone is acting as if due to Cena millions wouldn't watch wrestling. I think at one point Sly said the rate of fans is 50% more because of Cena. Obviously not due to the figures.

But Cena draws, and Cena sells, he has affect. He is the biggest face in the company. Thousands of people watch because of Cena, look at the ratings, those thousands can make a little difference, one person cant

And you don't think he was entertaining people there? Seriously? The only one I'd class as 'overselling' by what you mean is the part where he gets thrown over the ropes. But watch the proper match. A lot of them are taken out of context in this video. And the psychology behind the music of the video is biased in trying to get everyone to believe Shawn made a mockery of this match. Which in all fairness, the idea of the match was a mockery.

He oversold in that whole video. But you are too blind and madly in love with someone and you are to blind to see it... The whole video was him overselling, and him whining like a little child. Shawn did make that match bad, he over sold everything. He was a whiner because he didnt get his way. Earth to you, that over selling was pretty bad, he tried to show Hogan up but in the end it was michaels getting showed up.

Shawn came back for the fans, and because he loves the business. If he was in the same position as Hogan, coming back when he feels like it each year, how far would the ratings go up then? A lot.

LAwlz, thats ridiculous, Hogan comes back for the fans, Hogan has bad knees and a fake hip, he couldn't even work half of a WWE schedule, he comes back to perform for the fans. If Michaels had such drawing power the ratings would have sky rocketed when he returned, but they didnt. Why? Because he can't draw. Comparing Hogan to HBK is wrong. Michaels should feel privileged for being allowed to step foot in the ring with Hogan.

Yeah but this is always done at the end of a feud. Both get a few wins and then it ends usually on a big stage such as it a PPV. There was no point in this match.

It made a lot of money.... Their was a point to this match

 

[BooCocky]

Explain how HBK is overrated, or an egotist. Please, explain. Must we once again go over the definition of the word overrated? To be considered by the majority of people better then one truly is? Considering the world considers HBK to be one of the most legendary wrestlers of all time who put on some of the greatest matches in wrestling history, explain how that assumption is wrong. Are you saying HBK isn't a legend? That he hasn't put on countless five star classics? Maybe he's "overrated" in your mind, but that doesn't make it true.

He refuses to lose, he can't draw, overrated and past his prime. His prime was o 10 years ago. Comparing HBK to Hogan is ignorance, Hogan is the greatest thing in professional wrestling history, and Michaels cant draw. See the ratings of the years when he was on top and the business was all his.

And an egotist? How so? Because you believe every single smark story about HBK thats been told to you? Explain how he's an egotist. He's put over so much talent its ridiculious, and he still gets no credit. Why is he an egotist? And don't reply with "Oh because he refuses to drop the belt to people" when in fact every single situation in which HBK supposedly "refused" to drop the belt has a perfectly legit explanation that people tend to forget about, despite zero evidence to the contrary.

Name the talent that he has put over? Especially in the last couple of years?

HBK is most certainly a top draw. DX remains one of the most popular and most profitable inventions in wrestling history.

DX. their was more than one person. that should out draw one worker.. its common sense

HBK's program with Stone Cold helped catapult the WWF ahead of WCW in the ratings war. HBK wasn't a top draw in his physical prime, thats true, but to say he isn't a draw when he's headling PPV after PPV after PPV is just totally fucking ignorant. This years Wrestlemania had its best buy rate ever---and who was in the main event? HBK thats right. HBK is a top draw and always will be.

Top draw? Yep right behind Hogan, Austin, the Rock, and possibly Undertaker..

And Foley was never a good draw. Ever. I'm a huge Foley mark, but the man is just not over with the fans. Not todays fans. He's over with the old school fans. Every time Foley has come out this year it has been to a reaction of crickets. And it's sad, but true. Foley has never been a draw. Thats why he was never champion for more then two weeks.

Because he has ruined all creditability, he is not scared of putting anyone over, but he was a draw, and he doesn't get a good reaction because we see him to many times in a year.

The fact that you're criticizing HBK as being an egotist and then praising Austin as not being an egotist is just pure ignorance on your part. Austin quits the WWE everytime he gets drunk and doesn't like how a match ends. The man, while being a legend, is just as stubborn and arrogant as HBK has ever been.

Austin made more money, Austin is the bigger draw, Austin quit when he didnt like a story line that he was involved in, and i know he is an egotist, but that doesnt take anything away from him.

No confidence? And you would know this because of all of your close intimate conversations with Mr. Kennedy? So because he changes his moveset (not "all the time" like you make it sound) that means he isn't confident in himself? Bullshit. Everyone changes their movesets, its called evolution. You evolve into a better wrestler over time. If Kennedy wasn't confident in himself as a wrestler, he wouldn't be out there on live television cutting promos infront of thousands in attendance and millions of people all over the world.

Confidence? Gimme a break, he was hiding behind editing on SD which made him look so good, the man is an overrated, he botches so many moves, he is as stiff as a board. If he was confident he wouldn't have changed his move from the Greenbay plunge, to the Mic Check, and he is trying new moves because he isn't confident in what he has.

It sure was overselling. And it's hilarious that you're criticizing HBK for overselling when he's facing the biggest overseller in the history of pro wrestling: Hulk Hogan. The Hulk-Up routine...thats not overselling? How about every single time he's hit when he shakes his fists and gasps in pain like someone just smacked him with a shovel across the back? Please, this is a situation of the kettle calling the pot black.

Thats his character, he is larger than life, his overselling is all in his gimmick. hogan has always no sold, it is in his gimmick, HBK tried to show Hogan up by no selling but made himself look like a fool.

ROFLMAO! Hogan came back for the fans?! AHAHAHAHA! Seriously though, tell me you really didn't just say that? Hogan came back for one damn reason only: MONEY.

Well they dont wrestle for free. He came back to entertain the fans, yes money helps but he also helped entertain the fans

Thats why he REFUSES to work with the WWE unless his paycheck is bigger then every single person on the roster.

Biggest name in the industry, of course his paycheck should be the largest. He helped put the WWE on the map. He did a lot for the industry, thats why his paycheck should be the largest.

If he loved the fans, he wouldn't do that now would he?

He is the biggest name in the industry, now isnt he? they dont work for free.
Yep, and if A-Rod loved baseball his contract wouldn't be that big.

No reason for HBK to come back? How about because half of the main event scene became injured in the second half of 2007 and because he is a huge asset to the WWE?

Yeah those ratings sure sky rocketed when he came back....

Seriously, just stop talking Brian, you continue to punk YOURSELF without any help from me or anyone else.

But yet you replied

 

[Grubbs0621]

But Cena draws, and Cena sells, he has affect. He is the biggest face in the company. Thousands of people watch because of Cena, look at the ratings, those thousands can make a little difference, one person cant

To quote the American President (great film by the way), "People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference. "

It is not that Cena sells, it is that he is the only option we have. Something gets shoved down our throat long enough, we will begin to accept it. But it can't be denied ratings have gone down in 2007 directly because of Cena.

He oversold in that whole video. But you are too blind and madly in love with someone and you are to blind to see it... The whole video was him overselling, and him whining like a little child. Shawn did make that match bad, he over sold everything. He was a whiner because he didnt get his way. Earth to you, that over selling was pretty bad, he tried to show Hogan up but in the end it was michaels getting showed up.

You know the story behind that right? He was pissed cause Hogan was popping up and leaving, again. Shawn was/is a legit, main evente currentlyr. And was being told to job to a 53 year old Hogan who hasn't wrestled full time since what, 2002 when he was way past his prime? I don't blame Shawn for overselling. It is asinine to have him job in that situation.

 

[HBK-aholic]

But you knew who i was talking about?

Talk about confusing.

Kennedy did not win clean, he performed a move on a mistake, making him seem like an opportunist. Kennedy capitalized on a mistake, and facial expressions made the match look like a fluke.

He won cleanly. Do DQ's, no interference, nothing. He beat Shawn fair and square. Jeez you don't like it when he wins you don't like it when he loses. Kennedy winning on a mistake shows he can think on the spur of the moment.

No you haven't. what has he done for the business? Nothing, he was taking a back seat to Austin the Rock, Hogan, Taker? Revolutionized tag team wrestling? Thats a lie, and a kick to the all time greats. you have yet to say what he has done for the business that made his runs so remarkable. Yeah because drawing ratings in the low two's is so remarkable

In the same, what have Taker, Austin, Hogan and The Rock done for the business? I think they've done loads, but me saying this is as ridiculous as you saying Shawn has done nothing for the WWE. I think it's one of the stupidest things I've heard actually.

Woopy. Edge his has his own crowd hating him, but that doesn't make him the greatest heel ever. If he was such a great entertainer he would have more drawing power.

I didn't say Shawn was the greatest heel ever. There are so many to choose from it'd be impossible to choose the best. He draws a great crowd. But if he suddenly retired ratings wouldn't go down. If Cena suddenly retired, ratings wouldn't go down. You know why? BECAUSE NOT JUST ONE PERSON MAKES A COMPANY.

But you buy it for the card, because the card appeals to you, and the story behind the matches.

I buy it regardless. But all I'm saying is even if a match sounds good on paper, sometimes it won't always be the best.

One out of multi millions... Yeah big difference ... It takes two too tango...

I can still have my opinion though.

but making the Rockers assumption is a kick to the all time greats, you are forming opinions on people you have never seen perform... Watch a Road Warriors, BrainBusters, or Freebirds match. All great tag teams, The Hart Foundation are another great tag team, but coming from oyur an HBK fan so you obviously hate Hart, so you can't form an opinion on people and matches you have never seen..

I already said this..

For the time they probably were, as I said I aren't going to pretend to know a lot about them because I don't. So they may have had great matches. I aren't going to say either way because I've seen few matches.

I KNOW I can't form a proper opinion on them because I haven't watched enough of their matches.

As for Bret Hart, I was a fan of his up until he refused to drop the belt just because they were in Canada and it was to Shawn. There was a worry he was going to take it to WCW and make a mockery out of it. I lost a hell of a lot of respect for him.

It is all about the money.... Hogan made a lot of money, Austin made a lot of money, the Rock made a lot of money, the best and biggest should get some privileges, if Shawn could draw he should be able to get privileges, but he doesn't draw, and to assume he does is ignorance.

No, to assume he doesn't is ignorance. You hate Shawn, admit it. If he didn't, he wouldn't still be here now, the WWE would have got rid of him a long time ago.

The crowd was dead during his match when he returned.. He didnt even get a loud pop on his entrance.

Did you watch it?! Watch it again. How can you not say that was a huge pop?

But Cena draws, and Cena sells, he has affect. He is the biggest face in the company. Thousands of people watch because of Cena, look at the ratings, those thousands can make a little difference, one person cant

One person can't. But one wrestler can't make the whole diffference to a company. I bet a few thousand watch it because of Shawn. Another few thousand because of Orton. Another few thousand because of taker. It isn't just one person.

He oversold in that whole video. But you are too blind and madly in love with someone and you are to blind to see it... The whole video was him overselling, and him whining like a little child. Shawn did make that match bad, he over sold everything. He was a whiner because he didnt get his way. Earth to you, that over selling was pretty bad, he tried to show Hogan up but in the end it was michaels getting showed up.

I wouldn't exactly class myself as madly in love with him seeings as I've never even spoken to him. Therefore you can't use that as an excuse. Just because I'm a huge fan. I could say you were madly in love with Cena and Hogan if I wanted to.

LAwlz, thats ridiculous, Hogan comes back for the fans, Hogan has bad knees and a fake hip, he couldn't even work half of a WWE schedule, he comes back to perform for the fans. If Michaels had such drawing power the ratings would have sky rocketed when he returned, but they didnt. Why? Because he can't draw. Comparing Hogan to HBK is wrong. Michaels should feel privileged for being allowed to step foot in the ring with Hogan.

Hogan comes back for the money. Can you not see that? If he didn't he'd make appearances for the fans a lot more often. Take on a role not wrestling based. Remember when Shawn was out for 4 years? He came back to be commisioner even though he was injured. Why can't Hogan do this?

If Hogan was that badly injured he should have never won that match.

It made a lot of money.... Their was a point to this match

Not logically. Aprt from the money for WWE and Hogan, there was no point.

 

[BooCocky]

He won cleanly. Do DQ's, no interference, nothing. He beat Shawn fair and square. Jeez you don't like it when he wins you don't like it when he loses. Kennedy winning on a mistake shows he can think on the spur of the moment.

He capitalized on a mistake. Its not i am better than you it is that Shawn took his eye off the match, and Kennedy capitalized.

In the same, what have Taker, Austin, Hogan and The Rock done for the business? I think they've done loads, but me saying this is as ridiculous as you saying Shawn has done nothing for the WWE. I think it's one of the stupidest things I've heard actually.

I never said he did nothing, but what he did doesn't compare to Hogan, Austin, and the Rock, and Possibly Taker

I didn't say Shawn was the greatest heel ever. There are so many to choose from it'd be impossible to choose the best. He draws a great crowd. But if he suddenly retired ratings wouldn't go down. If Cena suddenly retired, ratings wouldn't go down. You know why? BECAUSE NOT JUST ONE PERSON MAKES A COMPANY.

Cena was the only thing they had for a while when HHH was injured, and Cena idd a good job at keeping those ratings steady

I buy it regardless. But all I'm saying is even if a match sounds good on paper, sometimes it won't always be the best.

But they are usually solid, or at least for the most part. five star matches dont come around every week ya no?

I already said this..


I KNOW I can't form a proper opinion on them because I haven't watched enough of their matches.

But you said they revolutionized tag team wrestling, and i fail to see that.

As for Bret Hart, I was a fan of his up until he refused to drop the belt just because they were in Canada and it was to Shawn. There was a worry he was going to take it to WCW and make a mockery out of it. I lost a hell of a lot of respect for him.

Hart said he wasn't going to take. That should mean something.

Did you watch it?! Watch it again. How can you not say that was a huge pop?

Easily the crowd was silent

One person can't. But one wrestler can't make the whole diffference to a company. I bet a few thousand watch it because of Shawn. Another few thousand because of Orton. Another few thousand because of taker. It isn't just one person.

John Cena has fans, and if he were to go to another company, i can almost guarantee you the majority of his fans would follow. like Angles did when he went to TNA... It wasnt a huge increase but it was an increase, therefore that little bit of fans equal more money

I wouldn't exactly class myself as madly in love with him seeings as I've never even spoken to him. Therefore you can't use that as an excuse. Just because I'm a huge fan. I could say you were madly in love with Cena and Hogan if I wanted to.

Hogan maybe, he is incredible

Hogan comes back for the money. Can you not see that? If he didn't he'd make appearances for the fans a lot more often. Take on a role not wrestling based. Remember when Shawn was out for 4 years? He came back to be commisioner even though he was injured. Why can't Hogan do this?

Hogan did everything he could for the business, he was an entertainer, not a commissioner. Hogan was a fan favorite, of course he comes back to please his fans and pick up a paycheck... Same says for Austin, and if HBK was getting a top 5 contract when he returned he probably wouldn't be wrestling.

If Hogan was that badly injured he should have never won that match.

He trained for it. He put a lot of hours to train for one single match, he risked injury for another match. He wasn't injured, his body, especially his Knee's and hip, but he still performed, and gave it his all with those injuries and he entertained the fans.

Not logically. Aprt from the money for WWE and Hogan, there was no point.

Its a business, it was a good business move, of course their was point to it. HBK turned on Hogan, and they had a match to settle it.

You know the story behind that right? He was pissed cause Hogan was popping up and leaving, again.

Hogan was retired, he was not working a full schedule, and his body wouldn't allow that.

Shawn was/is a legit, main evente currentlyr. And was being told to job to a 53 year old Hogan who hasn't wrestled full time since what, 2002 when he was way past his prime?

Hogan with two bumbed knees and a fake hip could out work half the current roster. Hogan is the biggest name the industry has ever seen, he was the face in the feud, and people paid to see him defeat the bad guy...

I don't blame Shawn for overselling. It is asinine to have him job in that situation.

I dont know, this is imo, it made him look whiny because he didn't get his way, and he was asked to job to someone far superior, so he tried to show him up, but it didnt work

 

[HBK-aholic]

He capitalized on a mistake. Its not i am better than you it is that Shawn took his eye off the match, and Kennedy capitalized.

On a different note, is it believable for him to beat Shawn anyway? Personally I'd say yes, but your sentence of 'I am betetr than you' made me think, because Kennedy isn't better than Shawn.

I never said he did nothing, but what he did doesn't compare to Hogan, Austin, and the Rock, and Possibly Taker

Why? What have they done that's so great that Shawn hasn't. Apart from Undertaker, which of them have left the WWE for stupid reasons? Definately The Rock and Austin. Maybe even Hogan. So in order for you to respect what Shawn's done, he has to leave to film a movie and forget about his WWe fans that made him?

Cena was the only thing they had for a while when HHH was injured, and Cena idd a good job at keeping those ratings steady

But he isn't the only one who does that.

But they are usually solid, or at least for the most part. five star matches dont come around every week ya no?

Yeah I know, but still. They could be bad (I aren't saying they are), but we've already bought it so it'd be too late to do anything about it.

But you said they revolutionized tag team wrestling, and i fail to see that.

Seriously, watch before the Rockers, watch after.

Hart said he wasn't going to take. That should mean something.

Well it didn't. He was out of contract after this match, he could do what he wanted. And I don't think anyone believed he wouldn't take it. Vince certainly didn't, and he knows WWE and the wrestlers better than anyone.

Easily the crowd was silent

Did you have your TV on mute?

John Cena has fans, and if he were to go to another company, i can almost guarantee you the majority of his fans would follow. like Angles did when he went to TNA... It wasnt a huge increase but it was an increase, therefore that little bit of fans equal more money

But that doesn't mean they'd stop watching WWE also. The same could be said for any other wrestler. If Shawn left to go somewhere else, I would follow. But I wouldn't stop watching the WWE because he's not the only reason I do watch it.

Hogan maybe, he is incredible

Lol

Hogan did everything he could for the business, he was an entertainer, not a commissioner. Hogan was a fan favorite, of course he comes back to please his fans and pick up a paycheck... Same says for Austin, and if HBK was getting a top 5 contract when he returned he probably wouldn't be wrestling.

Shawn was a wrestler not a commisioner too, but he still returned. Hogan's top priority isn't the fans, I think that much is obvious.

He trained for it. He put a lot of hours to train for one single match, he risked injury for another match. He wasn't injured, his body, especially his Knee's and hip, but he still performed, and gave it his all with those injuries and he entertained the fans.

He only did what all the wrestlers on the roster do week in and week out.

Its a business, it was a good business move, of course their was point to it. HBK turned on Hogan, and they had a match to settle it.

This could have turned into a good feud. They are both good workers, and could put on a lot of good matches.

 

[X]

He refuses to lose, he can't draw, overrated and past his prime. His prime was o 10 years ago. Comparing HBK to Hogan is ignorance, Hogan is the greatest thing in professional wrestling history, and Michaels cant draw. See the ratings of the years when he was on top and the business was all his.

Refuses to lose? Please name me even one time where HBK "refused" to lose, and back it up with some evidence. You can't. Because he hasn't, ever. HBK haters, such as yourself, have made up some fictional universe where HBK refused to lose to Bret Hart by "faking" a knee injury that took years off of HBK's career. What evidence is there for this claim? None. At all. Next will come the "but he refused to lose to Dean Douglas, remember?", which is also incredibly wrong considering that HBK got jumped by a group of sailors and was in the hospital.

Give me one example of him "refusing to lose". He can't draw? So why is the new Shawn Michaels DVD in the top 10 sports DVDs week after week? Why is the biggest pop of the night always go to HBK these days? Why does Vince McMahon continuously book him in main event after main event? Do you think Vince McMahon is a stupid man? Because apparently thats what you're saying. If HBK wasn't a draw, then Vince wouldn't book him. Simple as that. I'm going to trust the man who has all but monopolized wrestling worldwide over you when it comes to HBK's drawing ability.

Name the talent that he has put over? Especially in the last couple of years?

Here are some of the people that HBK has lost to since he returned in 2002--- Triple H, Chris Jericho, Goldberg, Randy Orton, Chris Benoit, Edge, Kurt Angle, Hogan, Mr. Kennedy, John Cena, is that enough names for you? Would you like me to list more? That is PLENTY of people that he has put over just in the last few years. If you're going to say "Oh but they're all main eventers" then just stop right there because NO SHIT they're all main eventers, you don't have one of your biggest stars job to fucking Shelton Benjamin or some shit. It doesn't work like that, never has. HBK has zero creative control Brian.

Because he has ruined all creditability, he is not scared of putting anyone over, but he was a draw, and he doesn't get a good reaction because we see him to many times in a year.

When was he a draw? Seriously, tell me one fucking time that Mick Foley was a draw. He wasn't. Ever. When he was champion, no one gave a fuck, everyone was just waiting for Austin to come back. When he won it again at Summerslam 99, nobody cared even more. I love Mick Foley, he is one of my all time favorite wrestlers, but he's not a draw, and he never was a draw. And thats why he comes out to crickets every time he enters the arena these days. That and because he should've retired two years ago.

Confidence? Gimme a break, he was hiding behind editing on SD which made him look so good, the man is an overrated, he botches so many moves, he is as stiff as a board. If he was confident he wouldn't have changed his move from the Greenbay plunge, to the Mic Check, and he is trying new moves because he isn't confident in what he has.

First off, considering Kennedy is on live RAW, and has been on live PPV for a few years now, your "editing" argument is totally fucking ridiculious. Stiff as a board? Obviously you're not very familiar with what "stiff" means in wrestling. Vader was stiff. Ron Simmons was stiff. Dr. Death was stiff. Kennedy is not. At all. And because he has a different finishing move, that means he doesn't have any confidence? How do you come to that ass-backwards conclusion? Do you know how many times wrestlers change their finishers? I guess The Rock was never confident, or Stone Cold, or the Undertaker, or Kurt Angle, right?

Thats his character, he is larger than life, his overselling is all in his gimmick. hogan has always no sold, it is in his gimmick, HBK tried to show Hogan up by no selling but made himself look like a fool.

So let me get this straight then---you have no excuse whatsoever for Hogans constant ridiculious overselling? So because thats his "gimmick" (when did overselling become Hogan's gimmick? I thought it was the whole Hulkamania thing?) its okay? This isn't the 80s anymore, and his overselling is ridiculious and insulting to watch. I find that match hilarious because of the fact that Hogan was stinking up the joint for the first 15 minutes of that completely overhyped and shitty match. You want to talk stiff, talk to Hulk Hogan, the man can't even bend over anymore.

Well they dont wrestle for free. He came back to entertain the fans, yes money helps but he also helped entertain the fans

No shit they don't wrestle for free. That doesn't make it right for Hogan to want his paychecks to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger each time he works in a shitty 10 minute squash match at a PPV. He's asking for more money then some wrestlers make in monthes to do one terrible match every time he comes in (and my god are they total crap: Mr. America anyone?). If he gave a fuck about the fans, maybe he'd agree to appear on WWE once in a while without demanding a paycheck thats more then my house?

Biggest name in the industry, of course his paycheck should be the largest. He helped put the WWE on the map. He did a lot for the industry, thats why his paycheck should be the largest.

Hulk Hogan did not make the WWE. He helped make them popular, yes, but no he did not put the WWE "on the map". Bruno Sammartino was selling out arenas long before Hogan was lacing his boots in the AWA. He did alot for the industry, and he's also taken a lot away from the industry. He's an egomaniacal piece of shit. End of story.

 

[Grubbs0621]

I dont know, this is imo, it made him look whiny because he didn't get his way, and he was asked to job to someone far superior, so he tried to show him up, but it didnt work

Hogan is by far superior when you look at things and what/who WAS.

However, it would be like putting on a staged Baseball game and having Sandy Koufax returning and sriking out Alex Rodriquez. Don't know if you're a baseball guy. Hmm, I see you've got a football related signature. Jim Brown showing up and running over Brian Urlacher?

This would completely ruin Rodriquez and Urlacher's credibility. To have someone who is ages past their prime schooling them. If Hogan wants to do his lil return gigs from time to time, he needs to show up, and wrestle mid card names with big marketing ability. Like Khali and his size for example.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Hogan is by far superior when you look at things and what/who WAS.

However, it would be like putting on a staged Baseball game and having Sandy Koufax returning and sriking out Alex Rodriquez. Don't know if you're a baseball guy. Hmm, I see you've got a football related signature. Jim Brown showing up and running over Brian Urlacher?

This would completely ruin Rodriquez and Urlacher's credibility. To have someone who is ages past their prime schooling them. If Hogan wants to do his lil return gigs from time to time, he needs to show up, and wrestle mid card names with big marketing ability. Like Khali and his size for example.

You're turning into Brian. This is a WWE thread abuot Shawn Michaels, please don't make the majority of our post about something completely different even if it is just a comparison.

I agree with you when you say Hogan should come and wrestle the mid cards. Put some talent over instead of trying to get even more fans and money by beating one of the top guys. Maybe not Khali, because that would be a match wasted. But MVP and Kennedy would both be great choices, they've both come along really far towards the end of last year and deserve a big push. I think Kennedy is getting that with his feud with Shawn actually. But yeah, Hogan should wrestle more mid card. That would prove he wasn't just in it for the money or ego boost...

 

[Grubbs0621]

You're turning into Brian. This is a WWE thread abuot Shawn Michaels, please don't make the majority of our post about something completely different even if it is just a comparison.

I agree with you when you say Hogan should come and wrestle the mid cards. Put some talent over instead of trying to get even more fans and money by beating one of the top guys. Maybe not Khali, because that would be a match wasted. But MVP and Kennedy would both be great choices, they've both come along really far towards the end of last year and deserve a big push. I think Kennedy is getting that with his feud with Shawn actually. But yeah, Hogan should wrestle more mid card. That would prove he wasn't just in it for the money or ego boost...

In all fairness, it is a direct cause and effect situation. It began with HBK and his attitude over having to job to Hogan, then about his oveselling in that match, which then brings the question, why did he oversell? Well, obviously he was bitter cause he was being forced to job, and then you have to ask, should he have been forced to job or not and what other Hogan alternatives was there.

It is all in context.