The Hiphopapotamus
The Dude abides
Samoa Joe is like marmite, you either love him or you hate him. Personally, I love him, but I can understand the reasons for hating him. Now, before I explain the concept behind this thread, I'll just describe so of the main things that garner opinions on the Samaon submission machine.
Why people like him:
1: Match quality
In TNA for the last 4 years, only possibly 2 or 3 other wrestlers can claim to be in as many classic matches as Samoa Joe has. AJ Styles is the only one who can claim that, and arguments could be made for Christopher Daniels and Kurt Angle. If you look at TNA's best matches: The Unbreakable 3 way. Check. Destination X 2006 Ultimate X. Check. Joe vs AJ Genesis 2005. Check. His matches with Angle at end of 2006, beginning of 2007. Check. Hard justice 2007 vs Angle. Check. Lockdown 2008 vs Angle. Check. BFG 2008 vs Sting. Check. Turning Point 2009 3 way. check. All classic matches that have involved Samoa Joe, aswell as other wrestlers I have mentioned. That list is immense.
And I'm not just focusing on TNA aswell. his matches against the likes of Bryan Danielson and CM Punk in ROH are the stuff of legend. He also has great matches against legends like Mitsuhara Misawa and Kenta Kobashi, where he came close both times.
2: His moveset and style.
Samoa Joe's moveset consits mainly of incredibly hard hitting slams and suplexes, aswell as super stiff kicks and chops and submissions.. His moves are more often then not, cringworthy, but in a good way. Like for example:
Very few mainstream wrestlers employ an offence as hard hitting as Samoa Joe. But one of the best parts is the realism accompanied with these attacks. His german suplexes and such look like legitimate knock out blows, moves that would hurt if someone did it to you. Which, always adds to enjoyment.
3: His speed and agility.
Samoa Joe is fat. Too fat. But he possesses crazy speed and agility compared to his size. He looks like a heavyweight, moves like a light heavyweight. He gets his kicks up very high, he jumos around, he goes over and through the ropes. His suicide dive is great, and his suicide barrell roll is, in my opinion, probably the craziest move I have ever seen. Moreso on who's doing it rather than the move itself.
Why people don't like him:
1: He's a bad worker.
Many people don't like him as he they don't think he's good enough when it comes to working a match. They say his selling isn't good enough. Neither is hios storytelling. Even looking at that list of matches, his detractors will still argue that it was with far superior workers. Many argue that he isn't as good anymore in the main event, becuase he doesn't have X division wrestlers to bump like crazy for him. Hence why his best matches are with AJ and Daniels. But I disagree. Sure it helps, but he does so much more. And what about Angle? He's hardly a cruiserweight. Personally, I couldn't give a shit. As long as he still entertains me.
2: Mic skills and charisma.
I like him on the mic sometimes. I like his intensity. His promo at Turning Point 07 after Scott Hall no showed still remains as probably my favourite promo for the last few years. His emotions could clearly be seen. But I can see where they come from. His charisma and character can be bad, and he is pretty plain. Up untill recently, he was just boring outside the ring, untill he adapted this "mastermind" character. But, in this department, he can be seriously lacking.
3: His look.
Seriously, the amount of times on this website I've heard some idiot say they hate that fat fuckJoe and his man boobs. It pisses me off a little. It shouldn't be about how they look. But sadly, it can. But Joe is getting bigger, and it's hindering him. He should lose a bit, but it isn't detrimental. If someone doesn't like him for either of the previous two reasons, I can accept fully. But for this, no.
Now, onto the topic of the thread, why I think Samoa Joe would be better suited in Japan.
Well, I'll go by some of the points that I've already described.
1: His moveset and style.
His moveset and style are strkingly simlar to strong style wrestling. Stiff kicks and chops are very popular in puro, and Joe loves them. And sick suplexes with head drops and neck bumps are both mainstays of not only Samoa Joe, but of Puroresu as a whole. Take a look at the video. It's really what Puro is based on, throws. He's also great at submissions, which is also a huge part. Puro, in my opinion, is based more on the in ring action and moves rather than storytelling, charisma and what not. So samoa Joe, great at suplexes, slams, kicks, submissions and flat out hitting hard, is perfect for strong style wrestling.
2: His agility and speed.
Another thing that would help him. Japan like their players big, but like a bit of speed aswell. Mitsuhara misawa was very strong, but could use moves like the suicide elbow to great effect. Joe falls into that category.
3: He's a bad worker.
You don't need to be a good worker in japan. Selling isn't important, as really, it isn't needed. The moves are that realistis and dangerous that they're going to hurt you anyway. And storytelling isn't important. So he doesn't need it.
4: His mic skills and charisma.
Not at all important. Well mic skills for two obvious reasons. 1) He doesn't speak japanese. 2) Except for maybe HUSTLE, mics aren't really used. Promos aren't what's important, your in ring WRESTLING is. And that's what Joe is best as. And as for charisma, same again. It's just not as important.
5: Look.
Yet again, not important. Look at the tits on Morishma, yet his still popular. Not one japanese wrestler that I can think of has the definition, abs, pecs and biceps as their American counterparts.
So based on what I have just said, I think that Samoa Joe would be a much better wrestler in the country where it better suits him. And that's the land of the rising sun.
So what do you guys think?
Why people like him:
1: Match quality
In TNA for the last 4 years, only possibly 2 or 3 other wrestlers can claim to be in as many classic matches as Samoa Joe has. AJ Styles is the only one who can claim that, and arguments could be made for Christopher Daniels and Kurt Angle. If you look at TNA's best matches: The Unbreakable 3 way. Check. Destination X 2006 Ultimate X. Check. Joe vs AJ Genesis 2005. Check. His matches with Angle at end of 2006, beginning of 2007. Check. Hard justice 2007 vs Angle. Check. Lockdown 2008 vs Angle. Check. BFG 2008 vs Sting. Check. Turning Point 2009 3 way. check. All classic matches that have involved Samoa Joe, aswell as other wrestlers I have mentioned. That list is immense.
And I'm not just focusing on TNA aswell. his matches against the likes of Bryan Danielson and CM Punk in ROH are the stuff of legend. He also has great matches against legends like Mitsuhara Misawa and Kenta Kobashi, where he came close both times.
2: His moveset and style.
Samoa Joe's moveset consits mainly of incredibly hard hitting slams and suplexes, aswell as super stiff kicks and chops and submissions.. His moves are more often then not, cringworthy, but in a good way. Like for example:
Very few mainstream wrestlers employ an offence as hard hitting as Samoa Joe. But one of the best parts is the realism accompanied with these attacks. His german suplexes and such look like legitimate knock out blows, moves that would hurt if someone did it to you. Which, always adds to enjoyment.
3: His speed and agility.
Samoa Joe is fat. Too fat. But he possesses crazy speed and agility compared to his size. He looks like a heavyweight, moves like a light heavyweight. He gets his kicks up very high, he jumos around, he goes over and through the ropes. His suicide dive is great, and his suicide barrell roll is, in my opinion, probably the craziest move I have ever seen. Moreso on who's doing it rather than the move itself.
Why people don't like him:
1: He's a bad worker.
Many people don't like him as he they don't think he's good enough when it comes to working a match. They say his selling isn't good enough. Neither is hios storytelling. Even looking at that list of matches, his detractors will still argue that it was with far superior workers. Many argue that he isn't as good anymore in the main event, becuase he doesn't have X division wrestlers to bump like crazy for him. Hence why his best matches are with AJ and Daniels. But I disagree. Sure it helps, but he does so much more. And what about Angle? He's hardly a cruiserweight. Personally, I couldn't give a shit. As long as he still entertains me.
2: Mic skills and charisma.
I like him on the mic sometimes. I like his intensity. His promo at Turning Point 07 after Scott Hall no showed still remains as probably my favourite promo for the last few years. His emotions could clearly be seen. But I can see where they come from. His charisma and character can be bad, and he is pretty plain. Up untill recently, he was just boring outside the ring, untill he adapted this "mastermind" character. But, in this department, he can be seriously lacking.
3: His look.
Seriously, the amount of times on this website I've heard some idiot say they hate that fat fuckJoe and his man boobs. It pisses me off a little. It shouldn't be about how they look. But sadly, it can. But Joe is getting bigger, and it's hindering him. He should lose a bit, but it isn't detrimental. If someone doesn't like him for either of the previous two reasons, I can accept fully. But for this, no.
Now, onto the topic of the thread, why I think Samoa Joe would be better suited in Japan.
Well, I'll go by some of the points that I've already described.
1: His moveset and style.
His moveset and style are strkingly simlar to strong style wrestling. Stiff kicks and chops are very popular in puro, and Joe loves them. And sick suplexes with head drops and neck bumps are both mainstays of not only Samoa Joe, but of Puroresu as a whole. Take a look at the video. It's really what Puro is based on, throws. He's also great at submissions, which is also a huge part. Puro, in my opinion, is based more on the in ring action and moves rather than storytelling, charisma and what not. So samoa Joe, great at suplexes, slams, kicks, submissions and flat out hitting hard, is perfect for strong style wrestling.
2: His agility and speed.
Another thing that would help him. Japan like their players big, but like a bit of speed aswell. Mitsuhara misawa was very strong, but could use moves like the suicide elbow to great effect. Joe falls into that category.
3: He's a bad worker.
You don't need to be a good worker in japan. Selling isn't important, as really, it isn't needed. The moves are that realistis and dangerous that they're going to hurt you anyway. And storytelling isn't important. So he doesn't need it.
4: His mic skills and charisma.
Not at all important. Well mic skills for two obvious reasons. 1) He doesn't speak japanese. 2) Except for maybe HUSTLE, mics aren't really used. Promos aren't what's important, your in ring WRESTLING is. And that's what Joe is best as. And as for charisma, same again. It's just not as important.
5: Look.
Yet again, not important. Look at the tits on Morishma, yet his still popular. Not one japanese wrestler that I can think of has the definition, abs, pecs and biceps as their American counterparts.
So based on what I have just said, I think that Samoa Joe would be a much better wrestler in the country where it better suits him. And that's the land of the rising sun.
So what do you guys think?
