Round 4: Spoodbeest -vs- Blue Cardinal

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Yes or No: Should there be a wrestling union to provide better health benefits to the wrestlers?

    This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. Spoodbeest is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
    #1
  2. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    I will chose to be on the side that a union should be used in professional wrestling to give the wrestler better and more suitable health benefits. Also I chose to go first and post my opening statement which I will get to in a little while.
     
    #2
  3. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    So this week's debate subject is the following:

    Now I will being to explain why I believe that in professional wrestling a union should be used to give the wrestlers some much needed better health benefits to their jobs. So without further ado let's begin shall we?

    1. The Travel is already hectic

    The hectic traveling schedule of the WWE is what causes a lot of wrestlers to burn out and that's why we see a lot of them try and jump ship to TNA so that they could basically live in Orlando to do tapings twice a week, every second week. Some wrestlers have to use drugs to get through all this, the main one being pain killers which were very abused during the nineties and caused a lot of future deaths to different performers of the past.

    2. Having clout only gives you time off

    We all know that some wrestler request take time off to try and heal nagging injuries that are acting up with them. However it seems that wrestlers need some kind of clout backstage to do so. Meaning you have to be quite the major star with some kind of say in your contract that allows you to even think about asking for such a thing. Triple H being one of the two that asked for this and received, the other being Rey Mysterio who months ago asked for the same thing but is still competing on the active roster. Two major stars had the right to ask for this and one of which is still waiting to get it if he ever does. What about the wrestlers who are lower on the pecking order and do even more damage to their bodies who don't get a say in anything and have to show up or else they get the boot?

    3. A Union could really help their line of work

    With this union wrestlers would get the health benefits they desire for putting their bodies on the line every time they go out and what they do. Could you imagine a wrestler trying ti get insurance? And having to tell the broker that he/she puts their body on the line and risk injury every time they go to work? It's simply ridiculous that a line if work such as this does not provide a union and apparently the only way a wrestling organization can get one is when a top star demands it. But why would they as they apparently have the clout to get that special time off every now and then, you know because they are on top of the company.

    4. Various Other Reasons

    Wrestlers are usually always forced to work through pain for the most part. There is always something hurting which causes them to try and get rid of it through the use of pain killers and what not. The eventual overuse of this ends up killing them and could be years later after they finished using the stuff because of their overall affect on the heart.

    This is the same kind of work as stunt men and actors have and they seem organized and unionized, why can't professional wrestling offer the same thing. Stunt guys put their bodies on the line a lot as well and they reap the benefits of health from their unions, which is something that all professional wrestling promotions should really be starting to look into.

    The WWE only seems to send wrestlers with addictions to some kind of rehab of sorts. This is not beneficial when they may end up feeling the exact same way months from their release and end up going right back on the stuff that they got sent their for in the first place. A unionized company would not have these same issues and would make WWE, TNA, and any other promotion a more healthy environment if that's even possible. The addition of a union to professional wrestling would also decrease the huge amount of death we see from wrestlers past and present as it would eliminate the use of the addictions of hard drugs that wrestlers take.

    Blue Cardinal, back to you. ;)
     
    #3
  4. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    Unions are not needed is my side of this debate, good thing it's true. I'll start this off by saying that all unions have plus sides and minus sides but in more cases than not the minus side shows through.


    Money

    One reason why a union in wrestler's wouldn't work is money. The amount of money that it would end up costing the wrestling companys to pay their talents. A union would require companys like WWE, TNA, and ROH to pay their stars on a standardized pay scale, do your really think ROH could afford the same calibur talents as WWE? That is something you have to take into account when you're talking about unions. Something like this would bankrupt the smaller promotions leaving more wrestlers out of work. We can just take a look at what's happening with GM at the moment, the government is handing them huge amounts of money just to pay it's retired employees. Then we can look at the hazards of the job and see that someone is always going to be hurt and need medical care, or even worse someone get seriously injured ala Droz, that will cost the companys big time, so much so I'd say we probably wouldn't have a show to watch. If the wrestler's had a union the price of everything would go up and $45 for a PPV is already steep enough. In short a wrestler's union would be the end of popular wrestling because the companys wouldn't be able to pay the benefits.​

    Strikes

    If a wrestler's union was put into place there would be a strike, plane and simple. The only major sport that hasn't locked out an entire season yet is the NFL and they are getting closer and closer to one with everyday. A strike to those major sports hurt them and hurt them bad. They survived, but I have doubt in my mind that wrestling would survive. My doubts are because the fanbase for the major sports had gamblers and hometown fans, things wrestling doesn't have to lean back on. ​

    Product

    The product would suffer with a union. You think backstage politics are are bad now, add in a labor union, something that has a long history of political influence and being crooked. Let's say we have a favorite wrestler of the other wrestlers and he isn't really that great. The union wants this guy in the main event because they love him but the guy can't draw flies to shit. The union can threaten the CEO/Vince to get this guy in the main event at a PPV or they all sit out to stand by their guy(united). You end up having more and more Token Title runs that are uninteresting and won't make the company money, money they use to pay their wrestlers.​


    Unions Won't Work in Wrestling

    While it would be nice for the wrestlers to have something guaranteed with benefits and healthcare it just wouldn't work in this business. Unions are killing the auto industry and the wrestling industry is much weaker than that so why would it survive if the auto industry is barely above water?​
     
    #4
  5. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Why would money be any more of an issue than it is already? If these wrestlers from all these different promotions sign up and demand to join a union why would the company suffer more when having to pay their talents? Especially when these talents would only be looking for better conditions for their line of work. What these wrestlers if they were to get involved with a union would probably be lighter schedules. Especially WWE who is a fiend for having the most extreme road conditions out of any promotion. I'm sure TNA could get away without needing one and perhaps ROH could as well due to their lower income. But WWE is the major wrestling promotion in need of a union. These guy are constantly on the road with no breaks unless they are injured and are re-cooperating from it or if they have enough power to ask for and receive a little hiatus. Money isn't what would be a major issue as all the workers would be looking for better working conditions.

    Through a union one's insurance would pay for these certain injuries and debilitations would not be paid for through the company's pocket. This seems to be an urban myth, that they are just our reap all the money from the organizations they happen to be a part of but this is totally false. They only provide benefits to worker's health as well as provide better working conditions. These incidents of injuries would paid through a union's insurance and not through the company's pocket. It is beneficial that wrestlers should have these special benefits to their health and conditions of their work as it would eliminate a lot more of the drug use that goes on and it could potentially save lives. I don't see why wrestling should not have a union.

    Yet another myth about unions always turning into strikes. Wrestlers are in the business because they really love what they do, they perhaps have a larger passion for their business than most other professional athletes have for their respected sport. All unions do is negotiate agreements. I'm sure if there were a union most promoters would give the wrestlers what they ask for in the working conditions and health benefits. So strikes are probably not that big of a threat to professional wrestling as most organizations. First of all wrestlers get paid far better than other unionized work places that go on strike and all the union would be there for is to benefit the wrestler's healths and to perhaps prevent any future wrestling related travesties.

    Business would very well stay the same with more choice to what wrestlers can do. Demanding a wrestler who doesn't draw for shit get pushed would not be one of them. The addition of a union would provide wrestlers with better conditions, maybe less travel or the ability to take more time off. I'm sure unions would not go that far because that wasn't the reason a union would be in professional wrestling. A union would only be necessary to help wrestlers stay healthy through out the careers and lessen the amount of deaths in that industry. A fact about unions also states that more than 97 unions out of 100 go on without strike and thats for the lesser business in which their employees make much less.

    It would work and should work because in the end it will provide with a healthier business. A hell of a lot more healthy and happy wrestlers will be competing for their promotions and it would prevent future atrocities from happening (those being deaths of wrestlers of course). The Auto business was dying a lot because of the recession too, thats where all of their problems began. Wrestling thus far we have seen not or barely affected by the world's recent recession, which is what devastated and started killing the auto industry in the first place.
     
    #5
  6. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    Unions demand higher pay, it might not be something they look for right away, but it will happen. Could ROH survive if they had to pay their talents anywhere close to what WWE pays theirs?

    A wrestler's union would include TNA and ROH, that's the point of the union, all the workers unite. It's quite a simple solution though, don't sign the contract, wrestlers are independant contractors and know what they are getting into when they sign up. They all know what they are in for and get paid well enough to do it, if you don't like the work load in the WWE sign with another company or get into a new line of work.

    Insurance rates would be through the roof because of the high risk these guys put themselves through. It would get expensive. Add in the money the company will lose from not having guys on TV because they take a vacation and it gets even higher.

    Myth? No sir. I'm hard pressed to find a union that hasn't been on strike. In fact I googled it and nothing came up. Try it, I typed in unions that haven't had strikes. Then we look at what a strike would do to wrestling. Raw being cancelled or put on reruns? How would that make you feel? Honestly?

    MLB 1994. NHL 2004. NBA 1998. NFL 2011? All get paid more than wrestlers.

    I mentioned something about this already. I think it was google and also the Major Sports strikes. Both are applicable here.

    It won't work because the product will suffer and lose fans because they can't see their favorite wrestlers. I'm all for better health and all, but that problem is for the individuals to take care of themselves, not having another parent doing it for them.

    As for the auto industry, I'd say cars are in a higher demand than wrestling. Just sayin'.
     
    #6
  7. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    This might not be the case with professional wrestling, especially the WWE. These guys get paid well already so why would they ask for more? Money would not a be a union's priority in professional wrestling, it's only use would be to provide wrestlers with better options for their health. ROH isn't even the main company that would need to use a union as WWE seems to be in bigger need of one, but the unions would ask for a standardized pay for all talents that is within the budget of ROH. I truly don't think ROH would be forced to pay an amount of money that they don't have.

    A union is used for employees of different companies in different work fields. If WWE decided to have a unionized work place for their wrestlers that doesn't mean it would affect the other two and vice versa. But for the sake of not going off track I will imagine that all companies have been unionized. Sure the wrestlers know what they're getting into when they sign, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that the only break that these guys get is when they're injured basically. unless they have enough power to request time off but that is extremely rare. These guys are probably worked harder than any other profession or sport. There is not off season in wrestling like you would see in most sports, it's always go-go-go and never anytime off the road unless they are physically unable to do so. These conditions are extreme and there is nothing that can stop, unless wrestling became unionized to fight for more suitable conditions.

    I'm sure not everyone would be off television for that long. Also if there were lack of talents that would make the companies lose money, which in turn would't pay the wrestlers so I'm sure do to that they would bring their asses to work. The extra break benefits would be for those who are burnt out to step away for a bit without having to leave the company, suffer in the ring, etc. I'm sure the wrestlers wouldn't risk lowering their pay by not showing up for good old work.

    No because most schools are unionized and you don't see every bumble fuck school striking do you? If we did a lot of children would be lacking education. My school is unionized and never during my time there or even before attended it did I hear of it going on strike. They are in bigger number than you think. Also Google wouldn't know every strike and union known to the history of time. So I would really just take whatever information you find on there with a grain of salt. In all honesty there is too much union history in the workplace for us to even begin to argue on this because we don't everything.

    These happen to be the more popular sports who are huge draws in North America, and of course they are much bigger than professional wrestling because they were huge when wrestling was only getting started. These organizations are also the much more money hungry ones as well. They were all about the money and how much they were paid. Which pretty well the reason for all the said strikes. Wrestling would not follow the same path.

    They can't really take care of themselves because they always have to be on the road. There are no breaks unless the wrestler has a debilitating injury that physically prevents them from doing their job. Beyond that most wrestlers put drugs in their systems just to deal with the months and years of wear and tear that has been done to their bodies. There really is no helping themselves because they can't say no or else they will most likely be out of the job.

    I wasn't arguing that it was in less of a demand. Cars are a necessity in today's life basically. All wrestling is basically is a form of entertainment. Cars will always be high in demand due to today's life style.
     
    #7
  8. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    Let's just get this clear. A union for professional wrestlers wouldn't be limited to just professional wrestlers in the WWE. Let's use an example, there are two contruction businesses one is the biggest most successful company and the other is a much smaller less known company. Both have workers that are in the teamster's union that has a standardized system of how they want their workers paid and provided benefits for. The union doesn't care that one company is bigger, it's the same rules for everyone.

    They signed up knowing all this. This was a choice they took when they started wrestling.

    Those vacations away from TV will be paid vacations if they're in a union. So the company is paying guys money that they aren't earning.

    There are hundreds of thousands of schools in America alone, of course not all of them have been on strike. Compare that to the dozens of wrestling promotions and you can see that the risk of strike hitting a wrestling promotion is higher. The lack of somewhere else to go makes someone sitting out of work to get what they want greater.

    Pay will come into play if a union is introduced to pro wrestling, your naive if you think otherwise. Pro sprots players get paid millions of dollars to play the sports they love what makes wrestlers any different?

    These are all choices that the individuals make for themselves. If they don't want to deal with the travel, they don't have to. If they don't want to take drugs, they don't have to.

    Cars are in a huge demand, yet the auto industry is dying because of unions. What would it do to something that wasn't in high demand? If wrestling fans aren't happy with not seeing their favorite wrestlers every week because they are on vacation they won't watch or buy the merch because they don't need it. People need cars so they keep buying them but the industry is still dying.
     
    #8
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  9. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Ok since we are closing on yet another round here in the Debater's League it's time to give a closing statement yet again.

    So this week's subject was:

    Throughout this debate I have given solid points as to why professional wrestling should have a union, I will once again provide them along with my insight on why below:

    1. The Issue of Wear and Tear:

    This is the issue that many wrestlers go through when working in the business. They are usually always traveling, always putting their bodies on the line a few times per week. This happens year after year and their bodies begin to suffer as a result. This the issue that professional wrestling has suffered through for a good while. Many wrestlers have taken harmful drugs just cope with this issue. After a good many uses with these drugs, even after they lay off the stuff it could still come back to haunt these wrestlers. Over the years the after effects of these drugs has killed numerous wrestlers and it was because of their hellacious and in-human schedule. There is no off time when your a professional wrestler, unlike sports like hockey and baseball were some seasons prevent them from playing giving them time off, wrestling goes on all year log. The tragedies we see is an affect of this and the addition of a union would help sort out such a mess.

    2. Unions are NOT always about the money/striking:

    These seem to be a big stereotypes for unionized workplaces. And couldn't be any farther from the truth. Most unions are only around to provide the workers with better and more suitable working conditions. Which is what is badly needed within the world of professional wrestling especially in the WWE. They could negotiate what kind of breaks wrestlers could get, the kind of treatment they can get for injuries or simply aches, pains and what not. They are not hound for more money and in return bully their way into bigger pay and do not whine and cry their way into a strike. In wrestling especially the addition of a union would completely out weigh any bad that would come from having one.

    3. A Happier Workplace:

    With one final statement I will say that a unionized workplace for wrestlers would equate into a more happy business. The wrestlers would be healthier, the amount of death would drop considerably, wrestlers would feel like equals among each other, and it would transform into a better environment as whole for all these guys.

    Bret Hart was quoted for saying the following statement: “The truth is only an idiot would say wrestlers don’t need a union, because we do! But it is hard not to take that company position and be a company guy when you’re on the team.”

    That is pretty huge coming from the mouth of someone who was a top star in wrestling at one point.

    How about some other great supporting quotes in my favor?

    One coming straight from the mouth of the legendary Roddy Piper: "The WWE have done some wonderful things for wrestlers. But we can't keep on dying. The wrestlers give their hearts—they give the best part of their lives. So as the success goes on, why aren't they being taken care of?”

    And one last statement from Darren Aronofsky, the director of the movie "The Wrestler": “I think the problem starts with the fact that they’re not organized and they’re not unionized. That’s the main problem. I mean, there’s really no reason why these guys are not in SAG. They’re as much screen actors as stuntmen. If not more. They’re in front of a camera performing and doing stunts, and they should have that protection."

    "That’s the only thing that for me came out of it. Why doesn’t SAG help get these guys organized? They’re on TV performing. Or, if they’re not even on TV, the ring is a theater. So they’re not just screen actors, they’re theater actors. They’re performers. They should have insurance and they should have health insurance and they should be protected.”

    Many others share this belief that a union would greatly benefit the wrestling business as whole. I am in agreement with this belief as well. Judges I have given you all statement backing I can handle, but ultimately you decide the fate of this contest.
     
    #9
  10. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Spoodbeest
    Nice opening by both guys, but Spood did close his debate.

    Punctuality: Spoodbeest
    Cardinal was late at one point but also didn't conclude.

    Informative: Draw
    About the same amount of information was provide, but nothing was too killer for this debate.

    Persuasion: Draw
    I find myself at a standpoint, despite good arguments from both sides, I kept swinging back and forth as to whether there should be a union or not. I'm at a stalemate on this one.

    Final Score
    Spoodbeest: 3.5
    Blue Cardinal: 1.5
     
    #10
  11. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    I always say this. Part of a debate is having a good opening and a great closing argument. The openers were good but BC did not close the debate. The Clarity part of this debate goes to Spoodbeest

    Clarity-Spoodbeest.

    Punctuality- Cardinal was late once and didn't close.

    Point- Spoodbeest.

    Informative- Draw. Not a lot of good info was given. Therefore they split the points.

    Persuasion- Neither were too persuasive. I'm leaning both ways. I can't really make up my mind. Therefore I say it's a draw. Both get a point.

    Spoodbeest- 3.5
    BC- 1.5
     
    #11
  12. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Gotta agree with the others and go for the spood on this one

    Point - Wee Dave

    Punctuality: Same point I always make on this one, have to agree with the other judges

    Point - Spoodbeest.

    Informative: Info was lacking to be honest, so a draw then

    Point - Draw

    Persuasion: Leaned more towards Blue Cardinal's reasons for no unions, presented a good argument for why it might not be good for wrestling to have these things

    Point - Blue Cardinal

    My Scores

    Blue Cardinal - 2.5
    Spoodbeest - 2.5
     
    #12
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    I only award this point based on opening arguments, and both gentleman did a fine job of presenting a organized and clear argument.

    Punctuality: Spoodbeat
    Blue was late for one of his replies, plus he didn't take the time to close his argument..

    Informative: Blue
    Blue thought outside the box and brought in information from professional sports. Thankfully, it worked, and it got him the point here.

    Persuasion: Draw
    Were it not for the fact that Blue didn't close his argument, I am confident he would have come away with a win here.

    Final Score
    Spoodbeast: 2.5
    Blue Cardinal: 2.5
     
    #13
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    After a complete judge's tally, Spoodbeest is the victor on 12 points to Blue Cardinal's 8.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
    #14
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