I am very much so a fan of Ring of Honor. I love the promotion and wrestlers but the last few weeks Ive began thinking is ROH declining? The main reason I believe ROH is declining is Dragon Gate USA, DGUSA. I believe when Gabe Sapolsky left it hurt Ring of Honor. After Gabe Sapolsky left he became the booker of DGUSA. Along with Gabe went the pay-per-view deal. Now Dragon Gate debuts on pay-per-view September 4th. So now as it looks as if Dragon Gate has entered the American Indy Scene as number four promotion without a show. In the next few months we will be able to see if Dragon Gate is any competition to ROHs 3rd place. I personally want ROH to remain number 3 and grow but I think competition will push new limits, showcasing a better show. Does anyone have opinions on Dragon Gate and ROH?
Ring of Honor: Declining?
- Thread starter G3
- Start date
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I think ROH's problem was getting on TV and PPV. ROH was making money and an impact when it was just selling DVDs off its website. Why would I want to buy a DVD of a match that I can see on TV? The production values they had to use were expensive and more trouble than they were worth. Is it worth getting on PPV so a few hundred people will buy your show? Not in teh slightest. ROH can be a big deal, but I think it tried to jump the gun and that's the biggest mistake they can make. DGUSA has proven nothing yet while ROH has, so let's see how htings go.
When Gabe Sapolsky first stepped down and the months that followed, I too felt like the product was on a decline. And then when Austin Aries won the title, that just added to my frustration with the company. But honestly... with what I've seen/read/heard out of Aries reign so far, I really, really like. I think he's doing a fantastic job and ranks right up there with Edge, Jericho, and Orton as the best heel in the business. That's how good he currently is, in my opinion.
So, my point is... with a champion like that, ROH is now improving. Their champ is solidifying himself, making the main event VERY important. The mid-card continues to deliver as usual and expected with talent like that. The tag teams are as good as they ever were. And ROH is at least now trying to either develop new stars, or like they did with Austin Aries... repackage and give them new identities so when they recycle an old feud, it can still be fresh and exciting.
So, my point is... with a champion like that, ROH is now improving. Their champ is solidifying himself, making the main event VERY important. The mid-card continues to deliver as usual and expected with talent like that. The tag teams are as good as they ever were. And ROH is at least now trying to either develop new stars, or like they did with Austin Aries... repackage and give them new identities so when they recycle an old feud, it can still be fresh and exciting.
Pearce has been booking for quite a while now and I've seen some amazing ROH shows come out of it. Gabe might have been one of the only men to make ROH what it is, but not that it's well established, Pearce's mind is just as good to keep it running, and keep it succeeding.
ROH has never lacked for independent competition. Hell, they booked a storyline around it - the CZW vs ROH wars. What ROH has always had to succeed is a great booking staff, which it continues to hold, a diehard fan base, which it continues to hold, and the best independent talent in the world - again, which it continues to hold.
If Dragon Gate manages to take some of ROH's top talent, then they're in trouble. If they can book Danielson or some of the other top names, it's a problem. I, however, extremely doubt that's gonna happen. ROH and Dragon Gate have had a working relationship in the past, but the game has changed a lot, and I doubt we'll see the same thing happen again. Dragon Gate USA is main eventing with names barely known to the US independent scene, and while that can change in time, ROH already is firmly ingrained as the top dog in the US independent scene. They continue to put out top notch shows every time they go on.
Furthermore, it's not as if any war in the independent scene is going to eradicate one promotion or the other. The worst case scenario for ROH is Dragon Gate establishing itself as a major northeastern independent promotion. ROH has gone national, and it took them seven years to get there. I don't see a scenario where Dragon Gate gets to the same level in anything short of four or five years, which gives ROH a lot of time to step up the game (if they even need to - we do still need to actually see the first Dragon Gate show, after all). Even if Dragon Gate starts to become a big deal, we're not going to see ROH go away - it's taken a firm holding as the top indy promotion, and even if Dragon Gate grows to challenge that status, it'll be a long time before ROH comes down, considering their show quality is still as top notch as ever, they've got a national TV deal, and have the history and proven reputation.
One last thing on the TV deal - they're different matches from TV, and the DVD line is still the top attraction for getting ROH shows. I've heard of plenty of instances where the TV show is an incentive for buying DVDs, and I know plenty of people have been turned into DVD buying fans based on the TV show. So, I don't see how making the jump to a national TV show, which is a supplement to their DVD line, is a bad thing at all.
ROH has never lacked for independent competition. Hell, they booked a storyline around it - the CZW vs ROH wars. What ROH has always had to succeed is a great booking staff, which it continues to hold, a diehard fan base, which it continues to hold, and the best independent talent in the world - again, which it continues to hold.
If Dragon Gate manages to take some of ROH's top talent, then they're in trouble. If they can book Danielson or some of the other top names, it's a problem. I, however, extremely doubt that's gonna happen. ROH and Dragon Gate have had a working relationship in the past, but the game has changed a lot, and I doubt we'll see the same thing happen again. Dragon Gate USA is main eventing with names barely known to the US independent scene, and while that can change in time, ROH already is firmly ingrained as the top dog in the US independent scene. They continue to put out top notch shows every time they go on.
Furthermore, it's not as if any war in the independent scene is going to eradicate one promotion or the other. The worst case scenario for ROH is Dragon Gate establishing itself as a major northeastern independent promotion. ROH has gone national, and it took them seven years to get there. I don't see a scenario where Dragon Gate gets to the same level in anything short of four or five years, which gives ROH a lot of time to step up the game (if they even need to - we do still need to actually see the first Dragon Gate show, after all). Even if Dragon Gate starts to become a big deal, we're not going to see ROH go away - it's taken a firm holding as the top indy promotion, and even if Dragon Gate grows to challenge that status, it'll be a long time before ROH comes down, considering their show quality is still as top notch as ever, they've got a national TV deal, and have the history and proven reputation.
One last thing on the TV deal - they're different matches from TV, and the DVD line is still the top attraction for getting ROH shows. I've heard of plenty of instances where the TV show is an incentive for buying DVDs, and I know plenty of people have been turned into DVD buying fans based on the TV show. So, I don't see how making the jump to a national TV show, which is a supplement to their DVD line, is a bad thing at all.
I too had some serious doubts about the future of ROH without Gabe, but I thought giving Aries the title was a great move. I'm sure RVDgurl will be in here shortly to rave about the man, but I too think he's an impressive wrestler both in the ring and on the mic. It's too bad things didn't work out with him in TNA, but I don't see why the WWE doesn't take a shot with this guy. Worst cast scenario he'd make a great WWE midcarder. But, obviously Vince McMahon isn't a beacon of reason, now is he?
And once again I agree with you here jmt. ROH continues to move forward, and for people who prefer a serious in-ring product it remains the promotion of choice.
That said, I hope people pay close attention to Gabe's work with Dragon Gate USA. It's a shame that their name is now tainted by the animal abuse scandal with it's Japanese brother.
Real Lucha Guy
Dark Match Winner
Dragon Gate is only doing 6 shows in the US. Plus, they got the same terrible ppv deal ROH got. PPVS are suppose to be live for it to work.
Once Dragon Gate realize there's no serious money to be made in the states,they will stop worrying about it and stay in Japan where they wrestle in front of thousands instead of hundreds.
Once Dragon Gate realize there's no serious money to be made in the states,they will stop worrying about it and stay in Japan where they wrestle in front of thousands instead of hundreds.
Damn. Am I really this predictable??
Anyway, I shared the same concern as most of the previous posters in regard to the departure of Gabe. He was a tremendous booker who carried on in the tradition of Paul Heyman with booking new and exciting fueds. Adding to my concern was the statement that Silkin issued about ROH's future being more oriented towards sports entertainment.
I'm thrilled to say that none of my fears have come to fruition. ROH continues to deliver the best wrestling show available- it is certainly not declining. Adam Pearce has filled in very nicely for Gabe and has kept the intergrity of the product while adding some of those "sports entertainment" components. Alot of the guys have been giving the opportunity to expand and improve on their characters, which of course, makes for better TV.
(Here it comes, X
) ROH now has a champion who everyone from Carey Silkin to the fat guy in the last row can support. Austin Aries has most definately improved, not only his own gimmick, but the feel of the entire company as well. He is the hottest heel in the business right now. Yeah, I said it- not Randy Orton; not Edge; not Kurt Angle- Austin Aries. Since his heel turn a few months ago, he has adopted some characteristics from his Austin Starr days and has stepped up his game tenfold. Not only has he adopted the heel attitude which has led to some seriously phenomenal promos, he has changed his demeanor, facial expressions and moveset in ring to fit his current status. Very few guys are able to successfully change all of the above during a heel turn. ROH on the decline? Nah.
You see this is some of the problems I have with some ROH fans. How do you expect a company to grow selling DVD's of their shows from a website? It's all about growth. Do you think TNA would be where they would be if they followed that approach? If ROH wants to be taken serious, then they're on the right track. They've gotten tv and their trying to gain a broader appeal. Is ROH on the decline? I say HELL NO! Do I feel they jumped the gun? I don't think they jumped the gun soon enough. They should have been on tv 2-3 years ago but right now I do feel that they're on the right track!
Why would WWE take a chance on a guy who is less than 6ft. tall? The guy is a cruiserweight in WWE standards. WWE's typical mold is 6ft and beyond. Austin Aries has nothing to offer WWE. All the guys that are Austin's height in WWE are stuck in limbo and eventually get released. He'll end up in the same positions as Jamie Noble, Chavo Guerrero, and Brian Kendrick, which is stuck doing nothing. WWE would only think of signing Aries if ROH was to become any kind of threat or competition, simply so ROH won't have him like they did to the original ECW and are now trying to do with TNA.
Why not? Short wrestlers have been popular before and still are. Case in point: Rey Mysterio, one of the most popular wrestlers in the WWE, and shorter than Austin Aries.
He's great on the mic. That's more than can be said about the majority of the wrestlers the WWE currently employs. They could easily use Aries as a midcarder.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to judge where a man's career could lead him based entirely on his height. Aries is only 5'9, no one is even going to give a shit if he's 3 inches shorter than their World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk.
Please, TNA is no threat to the WWE right no at all, and Vince knows this. If Vince wanted TNA out of business, they'd be out of business by day's end. You don't think Vince has the money to buy out half of that company's roster? Think again.
My point was that Aries is a damn good wrestler, and one that entertain even WWE fans if given the chance. Care to dispute that?
X said:
Rey Mysterio=marketable and has plenty of color and outstanding traits that make up for his height. Austin Aries is a great character in an indy promotion that will give him room to grow. WWE is a corporate umbrella where he will not be brought in as The Austin Aries but as another talent that will be overlooked.
X said:
The same can be said about The Brian Kendrick but exactly what is he doing today in the WWE at this moment? If Austin came to the WWE, he'd most likely be lost in a shuffle because once he comes to the WWE, there's a 90% chance that he'll be stripped of what made him Austin Aries and be repackaged to something that won't work or something people won't care for.
X said:
Austin Aries is about the same height standing next to Paul London & Kenrick for crying out loud. Don't act like it'll go over the viewers head. The years have shown us that Vince McMahon prefers for the big muscle type or 6ft height to carry his company. Vince is fond of pushing guys who are 6 foot and over or very muscular. Very rare has guys under 5'10 make it big in the WWE so chances are high that if Austin went to WWE, it would be a waste of time and wouldn't advance his career. In fact, he'd only devalue himself the same way Chris Harris did.
X said:
TNA is not a threat the same way the original ECW wasn't really a threat but Vince still has their eye on them and is taking some of TNA's key players like he did the original ECW which is my point. ROH is not on that level of national exposure, where Vince will take a top or promising talent from their company for the hell of it just to misuse them or bury them. It is a business tactic that Vince McMahon uses to give the perception to viewers that a top guy from a competing company is not on par with his level of top talent just to make the other promotion look like a minor league. It is business.
Since when did WWE care if you were a damn good wrestler? When will you people learn that it's not skills that take you to the top in the WWE.
So what if he's overlooked? I made it abundantly clear in my post that I don't think he would/could be a WWE main eventer, but that he'd make a good midcarder. A MIDCARDER. You don't have to ooze charisma and talent to be a damn midcarder now do you? He'd entertain fans, that simple.
So what if he's lost in the shuffle? Again, I never said he would/should be big, did I? All I said was that the WWE could use a guy like him. He's talented, the WWE is in the business of acquiring talent, where is the issue here?
Jesus it's like I'm talking to a brick wall here. I'll put it in bold so you actually read it this time:
I NEVER SAID THAT ARIES WOULD BE PUSHED. EVER.
All I said was that he'd make a good midcarder. You disagree?
What "key players" has Vince taken from TNA? The only TNA-bred stars are Samoa Joe and AJ Styles, both of whom are still employed by TNA.
Good god man, READ MY POST before responding next time. Seriously, are you disputing that Aries would (key fucking word their being "Would" not "Will", you DO know the difference, right?) make a good midcarder?
X said:
So it's okay to fade into obscurity? Is that what you're saying?
X said:
So you prefer to see him as another Santino Marella?
X said:
WWE is in the business of finding the next big star who can take them to new heights. They want the next Austin, Hogan, Rock, etc.
What is the point of just taking someone good enough for midcard only? WWE wants the full package.
The issue here is outside of possibly midcarding, there's no where else for him to go in the world of WWE. His talent would be eventually wasted like so many other talented stars that have come through the WWE and stayed in midcard heaven. If the WWE is in the business of acquiring talent, they should try to make use of the talent they have now. There's no need to go out and acquire Aries when there are already people on the roster that are possibly quite better than him as a midcarder but haven't been given the opportunity.
X said:
Well you really are. Because you keep repeating yourself in the same post over and over. If this was you're 5th time replying to me about this, then it would make sense.
X said:
He'd made for a good midcarder anywhere. He'd make a good midcarder in TNA. What's your point?
Like Austin said, "If you're not in the business to be the world champ, then you're in the wrong business."
When you talk, you've got to talk realistic here.
X said:
Gail Kim, Monty Brown, R-Truth, Christian, and Chris Harris. All of whom could have been much better or could have remained in a much better position than they're currently in and could have contributed to the growth of the company in some shape or form. Some of them may not be considered big losses compared to others but either way it's a loss for them and a gain for WWE. Like I said, it's business.
X said:
Read above where you asked the same question.
Where did I ever say that? You continue to just pull shit out of thin air, congratulations on your imagination, it's quite vivid.
So you prefer to see him as another Santino Marella?
Your opinions are simply laughable. I suppose Santino is the only wrestler who entertains the fans than? Laughable.
Do you actually think the WWE thinks that every wrestler they sign will be a mega-star? Again, I can't believe I'm even responding to such moronic statements.
Are you kidding me? Again, you actually think the WWE only signs people they think will make it to the top? So explain to me why half of the roster is employed than. A wrestling promotion needs midcarders, are you seriously going to argue that?
So your argument against the WWE signing Aries is that they already have plenty of talent? I wasn't aware that too much talent was a problem a wrestling promotion concerned itself with.
Well you really are. Because you keep repeating yourself in the same post over and over. If this was you're 5th time replying to me about this, then it would make sense.
I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself if you were able to understand the incredibly basic and simple things I keep saying, which keep flying right over your head. But hey, maybe if we cross our fingers and toes together you'll actually understand my post this time.
...THAT IS MY FUCKING POINT
This is why I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue me at all. The ONLY thing I EVER said about Aries, was that he'd atleast make a good midcarder in the WWE. Which you've just agreed with. So why the fuck are you arguing with me if you agree with the only statement I've made?
So since you agree with me, this is settled. Move on.
X said:
Pick up a dictionary and search the definition of overlooked
X said:
Yeah. When I watch WWE, he's the only one I find entertaining so
X said:
Of course a wrestling promotion needs midcarders but what a wrestling promotion doesn't need is to go out and specifically scout talent for one dimensional purposes only.
X said:
That and the fact that a)He will not be the Aries that we know. b) they won't know what to do with him c) he's not needed there d)there's already enough fat on their roster that they need to turn into muscle.
X said:
Maybe it's the fact that I don't understand asinine logic.
X said:
This is what you don't seem to understand. Just because he'd make a good midcarder doesn't mean he'd make a good fit there. That's what isn't sinking through your head.
Sure thing.
Dictionary said:
Funny, I don't see the phrase "fade into obscurity" anywhere there, or anything similar to it.
Yeah. When I watch WWE, he's the only one I find entertaining so
I was unaware that your opinion was the Gospel and Absolute Truth. Why are you wasting time talking to me on here, go out there and fix our economy All Knowing One!
They don't? Why not? Every promotion needs jobber. When the WWE hires a local wrestler for a one-off event, they are hiring them for a one dimensional purpose. To lose. Do you think the WWE re-signs guys like Goldust for anything other than one-dimensional reasons?
Wow, you're omnipotent and you can predict the future?! Hot damn, since you apparently see the future and thus know everything the WWE will be doing with any possible future talent, maybe you could give us some spoilers or something? I'd really like to know who's main eventing Wrestlemania 30 if you don't mind.
Maybe it's the fact that I don't understand asinine logic.
Here as simple as I can make it for you.
1. The only thing I said in my first post about Austin Aries was that he is a good wrestler and that he could make a good midcarder in the WWE. That's it, nothing more, and nothing less.
2. You than attacked my post by saying "Why would the WWE want this guy, he's under 6 feet tall!" What was that phrase you used earlier? "Asinine logic"? I think you've shown a fine example of that.
This is what you don't seem to understand. Just because he'd make a good midcarder doesn't mean he'd make a good fit there. That's what isn't sinking through your head.
Why wouldn't he be a good fit though? Again, HOW are you able to predict the future, and can you please enlighten me as to how a mere mortal such as myself might acquire that talent?
But nice try, really. Better effort than most of the noobs who come on here, maybe if you put some effort in you could actually become a halfway decent poster here, when you aren't out predicting the future and being omnipotent that is.
X said:
I never said you would.
X said:
You asked who the WWE fans find entertaining and since I am somewhat of a fan, I'm telling you who is entertaining from a fan's perspective and that's Santino.
X said:
I think your chances would be better since you have a totalitarian stance on everything.
X said:
There's a difference between scouting future talent for your promotion and finding a local jobber. Which one are we discussing here?
X said:
I don't have to be a psychic to predict what will happen to certain types of superstars in the WWE. I use history as enough of a source to backup my claims unlike you that speaks from a wishful thinking standpoint with your fingers crossed.
X said:
So can Braden Walker, so can you, so can me, so can AJ Styles, so can Joe, ,so can the guy working in the gym down the street, so can the guy doing 5 years in prison right now, so can any freaking body. That's like saying 50 Cent can make for a good UFC fighter. Is the chances of it happening high? No! And that's what I answer to. I talk with reality man! What you said was a pretty pointless and moot statement.
X said:
I'm not here to attack like you. All I did was reply to your statement in your initial post asking, "why the WWE doesn't take a shot with this guy", where I replied with that statement in the quote about him being under 6 feet. Your reply to that was, "He's great on the mic. That's more than can be said about the majority of the wrestlers the WWE currently employs. They could easily use Aries as a midcarder." Obviously, it didn't go through your head that I was saying no matter how much talent this guy has, the mold that he fits will not allow him to progress and his size is definitely not a must have priority for WWE. The conversation then took on a life of it's own from there with all of your aggression and attacks.
X said:
Because history shows that guys his don't benefit from being in the WWE. Is it that hard for you to comprehend or must you constantly play to the gimmick of being holier than thou?
X said:
Lol at becoming a decent poster. As if that's some achievement. When is the wrestlezone awards so I can prepare my speech for noob poster of the year?
I never said you would.
Yeah, you kind of did. Here's how the conversation went.
Our Conversation said:
There you go. Evidence in YOUR OWN WORDS that you told me to go look up the word "overlooked" for a definition of the phrase "fade into obscurity".
Care to debate your own words now?
You are one fan. You do not represent the majority of WWE fans. Do you actually think your opinion matters? It doesn't, I assure you. But I guess now you're going to tell me that when guys like Mysterio and Cena come out to huge pops, they aren't actually entertaining the fans right? Nope, only Santino does that huh.
Again, do I honestly need to point out just how ridiculous of a logic this is that you're using?
Do you even read the drivel you type? Where have I once even hinted at a totalitarian stance on anything? Contrarily, you're the one who thinks that your opinion is the absolute truth and that everyone shares the exact same thoughts as yourself. But yeah, I'm the totalitarian all right, I'm practically a character right out of 1984 aren't I?
They're the same exact thing: hiring talent. How that talent is used is irrelevant, they all fall under the same category of hiring talent. Which again doesn't change the fact that the WWE commonly hires wrestlers to be midcarders. Do you actually think the WWE signs a guy like Evan Bourne thinking that he's going to be a future World Champion? Because if so you would appear to know even less about wrestling than I had previously thought.
So you CAN see the future than? Great, how do you do it?
And it's hard to speak from a "wishful thinking standpoint" when I have not ONCE made a single prediction about how a guy like Aries would be used. Not once. But hey, that's your style; argue something that I've never said. Right on.
How exactly can "anybody" be a midcard wrestler for the WWE? Love to hear you explain that one. So apparently what you're saying is that it requires no wrestling skill or experience whatsoever to be a midcarder for the WWE? Have fun trying to back that opinion up.
How is it anything like saying 50 Cent would make a good UFC fighter? At all? Is 50 Cent a MMA fighter? No, he isn't. But Aries IS a wrestler, so why exactly is it so out of the question that he would be hired by a wrestling company? Again, where do you come up with this shit?
I can't imagine what it must be like to be constantly in confusion like you apparently are. You routinely argue things with me that I've never said.
DID I EVER SAY THAT ARIES WOULD PROGRESS?
No, I did not. So again, thanks for arguing with me about something I've never said. The more you do it, the less validation your "argument" (if you can even call it that) has.
A) Do you REALLY want me to list the literally hundreds of wrestlers the WWE has employed in the past under 6 feet tall? Really?
B) Being hired by the WWE wouldn't benefit Aries? Really? So earning a paycheck 20 times higher than the current one he's making with ROH isn't beneficial to Aries?
I seriously recommend you just stop. You've been thoroughly embarrassed and I don't usually enjoy kicking someone when they're down.
X said:
So where did I say, "Once you look up the word overlooked, you'll find "fade into obscurity" written next to it?
Talk about psychic ability.
X said:
Did I say guys like Mysterio and Cena didn't entertain?
You are a totalitarian running and lurking through this forum with a totalitarian stance telling people how to post. Now that you've got a taste of your own medicine and letting me engage in debate, you now want me to stop.
Your way of trying to decipher every little thing to prove that you are the gospel and word here is why I made the claim.
X said:
I don't care if they fall under the category of hiring talent. One is temporary and one isn't.
X said:
There's a saying if you don't know where you're from, then how can you know where you're going.
X said:
Well let me put it like this. He could become a jobber, he could become misused, he could be future endeavored. Is that better for you?
X said:
Anybody. Anybody is capable of becoming a wrestler, correct? Anybody is capable of learning how to wrestle or no? It doesn't change the fact about my point whether or not if you'd make a good fit or not with that skill.
X said:How is it anything like saying 50 Cent would make a good UFC fighter? At all? Is 50 Cent a MMA fighter? No, he isn't. But Aries IS a wrestler, so why exactly is it so out of the question that he would be hired by a wrestling company? Again, where do you come up with this shit?I never said it would be out of the question for him to be hired by WWE. I'm saying would he be a good fit, which is my main point that you continuously dodge. Anyone can be put in a position and be good at it. It's like saying Samoa Joe can be a good main event star in the WWE. Is it likely to happen is the question. When you leave yourself open after making moot points, expect a reply.
X said:
I liked how you skipped the part where I said a man of Aries' size is not a must have priority for WWE?
X said:
So you don't care whether or not if a wrestler with talent flourishes or not?
X said:
Can you list how many have taken their career to new heights since that's what I'm talking about?
X said:
No it won't.
X said:
Embarrassed???
Are you 12 years old? Because otherwise I can't believe you graduated high school with such poor reading comprehension skills.
You said "So it's okay to fade into obscurity?"
I said "Where did I say that?"
You said "Look up the word "overlooked"
Which would imply the words have the same meaning. Are you seriously going to sit here and pretend you don't understand that sequence of events, or are you truly not intelligent enough to comprehend it?
Yeah, you kind of did. You claimed that the ONLY wrestler who entertained the fans was Santino. Which would exclude Mysterio & Cena wouldn't it?
The way you backtrack is hilarious.
Where did I once tell you how to post? Please direct me to where I told you how you should post in this thread.
I know you've got a vivid imagination, but just pulling bullshit out of thin air left and right doesn't help your argument.
Are you joking me? Again SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT EVER. Where did I once claim my word was the gospel? Nowhere. Never said it. Didn't your parents teach you that lying is wrong?
So you're going to dispute that the WWE hires certain wrestlers soley for midcard and one-dimensional purposes? You're joking right? Do you think the WWE hired Hornswoggle thinking he'd be a main eventer? That's basically what you're implying here.
I could care less what the WWE does with him if they hire him. Did I ever claim to care? No. The ONLY thing I EVER said about Austin Aries was that he's a good wrestler and that he'd make a good midcarder. That's it.
I don't give a shit if he makes a good fit, and I never claimed to. He'd make a good midcarder. That's it. That's the only point I've tried to make, and you just can't seem to understand that.
THAN WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME?
I never claimed he WOULD be signed, or that he'd be successful if he were signed. So again, WHAT ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT?
You mean that question that I've answered now in every one of my posts? Yeah, I'm dodging it all right. I don't care if he'd make a good fit, and I never claimed he would make a good fit. The only thing I ever said was that he'd make a good midcarder. That's it. So again, why are you arguing with me? You continue to attack points that I've never brought up or even implied.
I just looked over our entire conversation, and not once have you said "A man of Aries size is not a must have priorty for the WWE". Not once.
And yet again, I never claimed once that the WWE needed Aries. Not once. Do you ever get tired of just constantly lying?
Nope, and I never claimed to.
Just lie after lie after lie huh? My god man, this is just pathetic.
Did I claim Aries would excel? No. Did I claim he'd take his career to new heights? No.
What the fuck do I have to do to get this through your head?
You really just said that? Are you kidding me? So having a job that puts you on national television and pays you far more than your old job did wouldn't benefit Aries?
So if I came up to you and offered you a spot on a popular national television show for millions of dollars, that wouldn't benefit you?
Right, thanks for playing, you've officially just proven to everyone here that you're an idiot. Better luck next time.
Embarrassed???
Yep. I've already had about half a dozen people tell me how foolish you've looked in this debate. Trust me when I tell you that everyone on this forum right now is laughing at you.
But please, go ahead and respond with more lies and continue to argue me on points I've never made.
X said:
Implying and having me say something is 2 different things. Next time don't assume that anyone is implying anything.
X said:
No I did not. How about keeping up? You said the man could become an entertainer stuck in midcard and I replied saying Santino Marella since he's what initially came to mind.
X said:
You got Alzheimer's or something. Check your PM.
X said:
You don't have to say it. Your holier than thou approach shows it all.
X said:
Lol at Hornswoggle being a wrestler. Hornswoggle is a sideshow circus act more than anything.
X said:
So answer this and stop dodging for once. Do you care for Austin Aries as a wrestling talent at all?
X said:
If he doesn't make a good fit, how could he be a good midcarder? You're not making sense here.
X said:
You claimed he'd be a good midcarder and I claimed he doesn't even fit the WWE mold to even be considered a midcarder and here you are spouting, "Austin Aries would make a good WWE midcarder" without any real logical reason to back it up. So you can ask yourself that as well.
X said:
I want to know the same thing from you as well.
X said:
And the only idea I've tried to get through to you to counter your initial claim was that he would not make a good fit there.
X said:
What are you blind?
LetEmKnow said:
X said:
Let's go into your world of implications because you implied it with your initial statement in a thread praising him asking or saying why the wwe won't go after him so what are you talking about?
X said:
So let me get this straight. You recommend a wrestler to be picked up by a promotion based on that individual's talent but yet you don't care if that individual rises or flourishes based on that talent? YOU MAKE 0 SENSE!
X said:Just lie after lie after lie huh? My god man, this is just pathetic.
Did I claim Aries would excel? No. Did I claim he'd take his career to new heights? No.
What the fuck do I have to do to get this through your head?
That's not what I asked you. Answer the question and quit dodging.
X said:
You really just said that? Are you kidding me? So having a job that puts you on national television and pays you far more than your old job did wouldn't benefit Aries?
So if I came up to you and offered you a spot on a popular national television show for millions of dollars, that wouldn't benefit you?
Right, thanks for playing, you've officially just proven to everyone here that you're an idiot. Better luck next time.
Not everything is greener on the other side of the grass my friend. Plenty of talent have had their value crumbled at the expense of jumping ship to the WWE. Braden Walker is probably the biggest example of this and I'm sure his salary was going to be more than where he previously worked but he didn't get to stay long enough to enjoy that salary, did he?
So yeah, you might want to think about that before jumping out the window since you seem to think that WWE is some Holy Grail for every wrestler!
X said:
. And who might those faceless cowards be? It's all talk on your behalf. Why don't you take a pic and show me those scums so I can know you're actually not pulling something out of your ass?I wouldn't be surprised though that you'd have scum sucking up to you since you seem to be some sort of leader here in this communist place.
I like the flippy
Dark Match Jobber
i think that roh is on the decline because of bad management and lack of stars and no money to sign bigger named superstars if carey silkin would manage the company a little bit better they could have more money to sign more stars like ken kennedy and umaga and elijah burk and paul london and brett favre then that would give them even more money because theyre big money draws so then roh would have more money and theyd be bigger
Bad management? Elaborate please.
Which is exactly what ROH is NOT about. ROH is about in-ring wrestling, they don't care about "superstars" like Batista.
When did Brett Favre become a wrestler?
While obviously ROH wants to make a profit, they aren't concerned with the WWE popularized version of wrestling. Their main focus is the in-ring product, and they are still doing marvelously in that department.
I've really had enough of this... LetEmKnow, for your sake on this forum, I'd really just bow out of this now. The fact is that I'm not even that aware of ROH at current time, and yet I can tell you that X is right. However, instead of actually continuing your argument, you've taken the argument so far off track, it really has stopped becoming funny.
Or, you know, next time you can make matters more clear on exactly what you're saying. Unless you outright say something, all we have to go by is the implications within your statement. You wanted to know what overlooked meant, you asked X to find it for you, and he did.
And, lo ancd behold, within the context of the argument
You were wrong.
Thanks for playing. See you some other time.
..... You do realize the WWE has more than one mid card wrestler, right? I mean, you are aware of wrestlers like Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler, etc., correct?
And I know what you're thinking to yourself... "well, he said entertainers. Santino is an entertainer."
Here's some useful words for you.
All wrestlers are entertainers. Men like the ones I mentioned are meant to entertain you, and as X points out, Aries is entertaining. I've only seen a handful of matches in ROH, and I find Austin entertaining.
As for your argument that he wouldn't be a good fit in WWE... My gosh, you couldn't be more wrong, especially when you consider all wrestlers, of all different styles and shape, go into the WWE. There's no set type of wrestler to succeed in WWE, and there's no mold that Vince looks out for. All he looks for is entertaining wrestlers, which it's hopefully been stated that Austin is one. Otherwise, you wouldn't be going this far out of the way, to make an ass out of yourself, for no reason. You care for Aries, and you want to debate over him.
You wanna pull that PM up for the rest of us? Because knowing X like I do, I find it very hard to believe he sent you a PM with any of what you're saying he wrote in it. It might be what you think he said, but lets pull up that PM, and see exactly where he told you "how to type".
Even if he did... He's only doing it for your better. Because right now, you're really not looking that good.
That's laughable. You really believe he has a "thy art holier than thou approach"? My Lord, I can't wait until you try and debate everyone on these forums. X is probably one of the nicer guys here when you get to know him.
He's only "thy art holier than thou" because he's pointing out all of the wrongs in your logic. Wait until you try another debate with the likes of Slyfox or NorCal or someone like that. They will practically eat you alive.
Then again, it seems like X is doing a good enough job of handing you a beat down.
Um, no, Hornswoggle's a wrestler, all right. Want proof?
[youtube]iukTgtKHT7M[/youtube]
Looks like a match to me. Maybe that's your problem... You just don't get the fact that, again, all wrestlers are entertainers.
Hornswoggle is, indeed, both a wrestler, and an entertainer. He's a trained wrestler, and he's had matches. So perhaps you should throw down that Hornswoggle example, and crawl back into your little whole,
Can't really answer this one for X, but I can sya my opinion... I care for Austin. He's entertaining. And as I've said before, all wrestlers are entertainers.
So, yeah, I care for Austin. And I think he'd be entertaining in the WWE.
Well, actually he is. He'd make a good fit, because he's entertaining. And as we've stated before.... Nevermind, it's never going to sink in for you.
You want logic
Austin would make a good mid carder because he's fucking entertaining. And as long as you entertain the fans, Vince does not have a mold. Get that through your fucking skull!
I'm not even going to bother answering the next three things, as you're either directly speaking to X, or I'll wind up repeating myself on Austin's ability as an entertainer
Um, actually, yes it does. Because once one's actually in the WWE, it falls on his shoulders to entertain the fans. X hasn't have to care for him if he chooses not to, and that's his choice. So yeah... Don't tell people how to feel.
You want people that have taken their career to new heights?
CM Punk.
Somoa Joe.
Hell, even fucking Jamie Noble.
Why? Because they got out of ROH, and made it to the WWE. And making it to the WWE is a brand new fucking height. Got me?
And for every Braden Walker, there's about three or four CM Punks. Focusing on one negative is really weakening your argument here. If all indy wrestlers failed, you'd be right. But some do make it.
Well you see kid, it really is. Everyone does, in fact, want to make it to the WWE. It's where the biggest audience is, it's where the most money is, and it's where the most fame is.
So yeah, everyone wants the most money, fame, and the biggest stage to shine on. And anyone who doesn't either;
A. Has already had it, and got dumped on their ass.
B. Is crazy, and doesn't want to live a better life.
There we go with the whole communism shit, again. I'm pretty sure when you get banned (And I assure you, at the rate you're going, that won't be too far. You'll run into the wrong Mod, and say the wrong thing, and you will be gone. You just strike me as that kind of a person, really. You're lucky that X merely likes just making you look like a moron) you'll call the mods Nazi and shit.
anyway, you've done a good job of making yourself look like a fool. Good day, sir.
[youtube]VDW0ZnZxjn4[/youtube]
Or, you know, next time you can make matters more clear on exactly what you're saying. Unless you outright say something, all we have to go by is the implications within your statement. You wanted to know what overlooked meant, you asked X to find it for you, and he did.
And, lo ancd behold, within the context of the argument
You were wrong.
Thanks for playing. See you some other time.
..... You do realize the WWE has more than one mid card wrestler, right? I mean, you are aware of wrestlers like Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler, etc., correct?
And I know what you're thinking to yourself... "well, he said entertainers. Santino is an entertainer."
Here's some useful words for you.
All wrestlers are entertainers. Men like the ones I mentioned are meant to entertain you, and as X points out, Aries is entertaining. I've only seen a handful of matches in ROH, and I find Austin entertaining.
As for your argument that he wouldn't be a good fit in WWE... My gosh, you couldn't be more wrong, especially when you consider all wrestlers, of all different styles and shape, go into the WWE. There's no set type of wrestler to succeed in WWE, and there's no mold that Vince looks out for. All he looks for is entertaining wrestlers, which it's hopefully been stated that Austin is one. Otherwise, you wouldn't be going this far out of the way, to make an ass out of yourself, for no reason. You care for Aries, and you want to debate over him.
You wanna pull that PM up for the rest of us? Because knowing X like I do, I find it very hard to believe he sent you a PM with any of what you're saying he wrote in it. It might be what you think he said, but lets pull up that PM, and see exactly where he told you "how to type".
Even if he did... He's only doing it for your better. Because right now, you're really not looking that good.
That's laughable. You really believe he has a "thy art holier than thou approach"? My Lord, I can't wait until you try and debate everyone on these forums. X is probably one of the nicer guys here when you get to know him.
He's only "thy art holier than thou" because he's pointing out all of the wrongs in your logic. Wait until you try another debate with the likes of Slyfox or NorCal or someone like that. They will practically eat you alive.
Then again, it seems like X is doing a good enough job of handing you a beat down.
Um, no, Hornswoggle's a wrestler, all right. Want proof?
[youtube]iukTgtKHT7M[/youtube]
Looks like a match to me. Maybe that's your problem... You just don't get the fact that, again, all wrestlers are entertainers.
Hornswoggle is, indeed, both a wrestler, and an entertainer. He's a trained wrestler, and he's had matches. So perhaps you should throw down that Hornswoggle example, and crawl back into your little whole,
Can't really answer this one for X, but I can sya my opinion... I care for Austin. He's entertaining. And as I've said before, all wrestlers are entertainers.
So, yeah, I care for Austin. And I think he'd be entertaining in the WWE.
Well, actually he is. He'd make a good fit, because he's entertaining. And as we've stated before.... Nevermind, it's never going to sink in for you.
You want logic
Austin would make a good mid carder because he's fucking entertaining. And as long as you entertain the fans, Vince does not have a mold. Get that through your fucking skull!
I'm not even going to bother answering the next three things, as you're either directly speaking to X, or I'll wind up repeating myself on Austin's ability as an entertainer
Um, actually, yes it does. Because once one's actually in the WWE, it falls on his shoulders to entertain the fans. X hasn't have to care for him if he chooses not to, and that's his choice. So yeah... Don't tell people how to feel.
You want people that have taken their career to new heights?
CM Punk.
Somoa Joe.
Hell, even fucking Jamie Noble.
Why? Because they got out of ROH, and made it to the WWE. And making it to the WWE is a brand new fucking height. Got me?
And for every Braden Walker, there's about three or four CM Punks. Focusing on one negative is really weakening your argument here. If all indy wrestlers failed, you'd be right. But some do make it.
Well you see kid, it really is. Everyone does, in fact, want to make it to the WWE. It's where the biggest audience is, it's where the most money is, and it's where the most fame is.
So yeah, everyone wants the most money, fame, and the biggest stage to shine on. And anyone who doesn't either;
A. Has already had it, and got dumped on their ass.
B. Is crazy, and doesn't want to live a better life.
I wouldn't be surprised though that you'd have scum sucking up to you since you seem to be some sort of leader here in this communist place.
There we go with the whole communism shit, again. I'm pretty sure when you get banned (And I assure you, at the rate you're going, that won't be too far. You'll run into the wrong Mod, and say the wrong thing, and you will be gone. You just strike me as that kind of a person, really. You're lucky that X merely likes just making you look like a moron) you'll call the mods Nazi and shit.
anyway, you've done a good job of making yourself look like a fool. Good day, sir.
[youtube]VDW0ZnZxjn4[/youtube]
Cowboyfromhell
2 Time Co-Beach Volleyball Champion
I don't believe ROH is declining. I know they don't have PPV's anymore but I think that is because (1) they weren't live and to me PPV's need to be live, just more excitement to it and (2) the HDNET tv deal. These are taped, which is fine, I don't need these to be live but they film 6 episodes in one weekend, then coupled with having a ppv that is going to sit on tape for 4-6 weeks before it airs, that is a lot of storyline sitting on tape. It's hard not to find the results out when it's on tape for weeks before it airs, you would have to avoid this web site, the ROH web site and my family and friends. Plus I believe the PPV deal was a trial to see how much interest there was in ROH in order to get a tv deal, which they did.
And the actual wrestling is very good right now. Austin Aries is a complete tool bag asshole. I love it. Right down to his stupid little pedophile mustache. He's a great heel and he would be good as a midcarder in WWE. Let's not forget an even smaller man, Evan Bourne used to wrestle under the name Matt Sydal in ROH before big Bad Vince signed him away. But AA is more important to ROH than he would be to WWE and I think A Double would rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond, because he would never be the big fish in WWE.
And if they did sign people like Umaga or Kennedy, I would probably stop going to ROH shows. Nothing against those gentleman, but that's not what ROH is about or what ROH needs. ROH develops young wrestlers and TNA and Vince steals them away.And that's fine, it's business. I don't want people WWE no longer wants, that's what TNA is for.
And the actual wrestling is very good right now. Austin Aries is a complete tool bag asshole. I love it. Right down to his stupid little pedophile mustache. He's a great heel and he would be good as a midcarder in WWE. Let's not forget an even smaller man, Evan Bourne used to wrestle under the name Matt Sydal in ROH before big Bad Vince signed him away. But AA is more important to ROH than he would be to WWE and I think A Double would rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond, because he would never be the big fish in WWE.
And if they did sign people like Umaga or Kennedy, I would probably stop going to ROH shows. Nothing against those gentleman, but that's not what ROH is about or what ROH needs. ROH develops young wrestlers and TNA and Vince steals them away.And that's fine, it's business. I don't want people WWE no longer wants, that's what TNA is for.