Religion

[Steamboat Ricky]

Like I said, i'll get back into this later with more detail, I just want to touch base quickly..

When discerning what is literal and what is figurative, it's much like regular conversation. You also have to keep in mind, with the wording of the older books specifically, the Bible was translated into English quite a while back, so it's hard to get full effect. My understanding of the verse in Joshua you pulled up, and I'd presume of many others, is God's general providing of what was needed for Joshua, not as in giving him light for something like 21 of 24 hours so they can have the daylight.

The Bible, and what it teaches- basically what the point of it is- is that we need to be saved from our original sinning nature. The entire Bible until the point of Jesus birth needs to be taken as literally as after his birth. The prophesy books provided an unsurpassable amount of evidence given from God prophisied to the modern people, about Christ's birth, life, death, and return to life. It can't just be picking and choosing, because everything ties in together from Adam to Joseph as it is from David to Jesus. The whole belief relies on the literal belief in what God says as much as it does for the great wisdom Jesus' teachings gave us.

I can thank you in return for being more level-headed than most I've encountered who dismiss all of my points before reading them. This is a tricky topic, so I'd too like to see a lot of people involved on both sides of the coin. You definitely have a great understanding of what you're talking about, and I'm definitely not up to par on everything that you are, so I hope I'll have some help if needed, and if there's something you aren't as devoloped in I hope you'd recieve adaquete back up. It's a better discussion with more people as opposed to those horrible 10 pages of back and forth discussion of mess just among two people nobody else wants to get tangled in.

Why does it need to be taken literally? Furthermore, what do you mean by "literally"? I can very well believe that something didn't historically happen yet still be very true.

Star Wars, for instance. I believe that much of the story is very "true" because it seems to match my outlook on life and provide me with practical wisdom. However, I know that it was a fictional story written by George Lucas, largely influenced by the myth studies of Joseph Campbell. Thus, it isn't historical.

Let us not confuse history and truth as being the same thing.

 

[TwistofRKO]

The Old Testament is loaded with prophesy about the coming of the Savior, as early as Genesis. You cannot take what God says and make it adapt you. Jesus took the Bible literally, and that's our greatest example as Christians.

And again, taking it literally you have to keep in mind of common language, there are figures of speech. It's just like everyday speech, if I see you write, "It's raining cat and dogs out", or "It's hot as hell out today", it's easy to pick up what you're laying down.

 

[Tastycles]

When discerning what is literal and what is figurative, it's much like regular conversation. You also have to keep in mind, with the wording of the older books specifically, the Bible was translated into English quite a while back, so it's hard to get full effect. My understanding of the verse in Joshua you pulled up, and I'd presume of many others, is God's general providing of what was needed for Joshua, not as in giving him light for something like 21 of 24 hours so they can have the daylight.

I understand that, but why not take the whole thing as symbolism. You can take the fact that God created the universe in an instant to make it comply with the Big Bang. The fact that he made the animals in an order and ended with humans, can be seen as an allegory to evolution. This isn't what I believe, but it is possible to manipulate the bible to your needs no matter what. The Catholic Church has spent 2000 years breaking most of the 10 commandments in the name of God, and if a manipulation as big as that can be made, then you have to question the integrity of using the Bible literally.

The Bible, and what it teaches- basically what the point of it is- is that we need to be saved from our original sinning nature. The entire Bible until the point of Jesus birth needs to be taken as literally as after his birth. The prophesy books provided an unsurpassable amount of evidence given from God prophisied to the modern people, about Christ's birth, life, death, and return to life. It can't just be picking and choosing, because everything ties in together from Adam to Joseph as it is from David to Jesus. The whole belief relies on the literal belief in what God says as much as it does for the great wisdom Jesus' teachings gave us.

But the thing is is that the old and new testaments as we know them were rewritten at the same time. It is easy to edit the parts of the Old Testament to make it seem entirely foretelling of Jesus. I don't mean necessarily changing the facts presented, but just omitting the ones that don't support what you are trying to say. I could write my WrestleMania predictions up now in a way that would suggest I got everything right. Not by changing what I said, just by ignoring the matches I was wrong about. The Bible is heavily edited from what was actually written originally. For example, there are 10 completely preserved Gospels, but only 4 that made it into the Bible.

Prophecy in hindsight is an easy thing to exaggerate, you only need to look at the arse people spout about Nostradamus to see that.

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb",
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

People attribute that to 9/11. Think about it, apart from the term "two", there is literally nothing else that has in common with the events of September 11, but it would be easy to analyse it and take things out of context to suit whatever you're trying to say.

but by no basis to religion I meant that there is no proof of a "God" and therefore all of the Christian bible's credibility lies in ruin . The Catholic church has backtracked many times over the past 100 years and now say that the bible is only teachings which may help you live your life by.

This brings up an excellent point. The Catholic Church hasd changed its stance on many things over the last 1000 years. If their interpretation of the bible changes, does that magically alter the events that it describes?

Also, it is my opinion that these "educated people" who believe in religions, only do so because they have been brought up in households that believed in these religions first. This is the problem with religion. People believe in it so much that they can't see the obvious glaring holes in religion. They are only lying to themselves.

I completely disagree with this though. I do Astrophysics and Philosophy of Science at a good university, and there are plenty of people who teach me that believe in God. There are obvious flaws to my eyes in fundamentalism, but to believe in a creator that set off the big bang is no less logical than any other explanation.

I am educated and not religious, but I know plenty of people who are, and not always becaue of their upbringing.

However, here is my 2 cents worth. I am an avid supporter of free religion and I believe that people should have the right to choose what the believe. I am an atheist myself and I think that in my life it makes the most sense. Many people find religion when times are tough and sometimes find it through chance.

I agree that people have a right to believe whatever they want, as long as it does not contravene general moral laws. E.g. A religion where a daily human sacrifice had to be made is a no-no as would be a religion where paedophilia is part of the rituals etc. I'd also like to say that Richard Dawkins trying to force atheism on people is hypocritical and equally bad as Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my front door. He's an atheist, and while he may have more evidence for him being right, he shouldn't tr and force that upon people. Education is fine, coercion isn't.

The thing about religion is that religion is the most divisive and controversial subject in this planet. The thing about free religion is that it is a very scary and powerful thing. I don't mean to offend anyone but the Muslim religion scares me and that I believe that that's what it sets out to be. I read horror stories about the religion and I think how lucky I am that I have both the freedom to choose religion and the freedom to live without guidance from a book.

There are countries in the world that use religion to opress, but the only thing that is different between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is doing it now and Christianity did it 500 years ago. In religion, the radicals will always end up losing, the crusades being a classic example of that. There's no doubt in my mind that islamic extremism will be extinct within the next 200 years. Their religion is under a perceived threat, so they are fighting that. I don't sympathise with them, but I understand what they are saying. Islam is no different from any of the other Abrahamic religions in that respect.

The other problem I have with religion is that children who are born into houses who live under guidance from religion, usually become religious themselves and don't really have the choices open to them that most of us do. I think religion can be used to scare people and that's what the worst thing is.

You have a point, but if you were a Christian and you believed that you'd go to hell if you weren't, wouldn't you try and force your child into the religion. To an outsider, it can look archaic, but these people genuinely believe that they are doing right by their children

Thus, I think trying to "prove" something like God existing or the Bible being "true" is just a big waste of time.

Amen.

My extremely unqualified suggestion would be to think for yourself...what do YOU believe? Not just what is easy, comfortable, or makes the world look the best for you. In your experience, what stands out? Then, you (or we) can go from there.

Let us all state our positions. I am an atheist, but I find it uncomfortable to say so, I have no idea why, I think it is largely because I'd like to think that there was more to it, but I know there isn't. I am a firm believer in the big bang theory and think that everything on earth can be explained without divine intervention. I have issues with evolutionary theory presented by Darwin, but these are entirely scientific and I do believe in evolution per se.

I was raised to believe whatever I chose to, and I have not been baptised or anything like that. I went to military school, where I went to Chapel every day. I estimate that I have spent somewhere in the vicinity of 600 hours in Church in my life, so I know a lot about Christianity, I just choose not to follow it at all.

I live and let live with all religions, but I think the Christian Church has a hell of a lot to answer for, but its patrons do not. At the end of the dy, there are far worse attributes in people than haing faith.

The Old Testament is loaded with prophesy about the coming of the Savior, as early as Genesis. You cannot take what God says and make it adapt you. Jesus took the Bible literally, and that's our greatest example as Christians.

Part of the reason why the Jews dn't view him as the messiah is because he didn't exactly match to the prophecy. There was not a second coming of Elijah, as it says in the scripture, but instead John the Baptist, who was like Elijah. Taken literally, Jesus is not the messiah at all.

 

[Shadowmancer]

That "Nostradamus" quote was made up by someone post-september 11. They then proceeded to attribute it to Nostradamus. Who may or may not have been writing about events that had already been. The one commonly attributed to the Great fire of London could also be referring to the reign of Bloody Mary the elder sister of Queen Elizabeth I. so don't trust everything that is said either by Nostradamus or by those claiming to have prophecies by Nostradamus.

But Interpretation of the Bible has been going on for years. It has only been historically recently that the church has felt that it doesn't need to bring about the end of the world by converting all the Jews to christianity. Bizzare belief there. Most Christians don't even realize that there is actually supposed to be 5 Popes. One in Rome, One in Istanbul, One in Alexandria, One in Antioch and another in Jerusalem (I think, can't remember off the top of my head with that one, the other four I am certain on).

But this belief on interpretation will never truly mean there is one view on anything, an example of that is if you see a car accident, your view of it and therefore your story of it is going to be different from a person standing right next to you. same thing within even Catholicism, Judaism and Islam. Infighting occurs and results in groups getting fractured from each other and creating more and more splits. So it is either going to be a heresy or a Schism.

The arguments within religions over interpretations are for those that specialize within the study of theology. I look at historical context and all that because I don't want to hurt my head thinking about the theological problems that are associated with all religions. I will say that I am a Catholic, but I don't agree with all of the rulings that are made within the church, (eg. stuff to do with Condoms and the like) But on matters of theological stuff I will generally accept.

Oh Yeah and if people think about what Pope Benedict XVI said about Condoms and AIDS in Africa, think about it in terms of if they aren't having sex then theoretically they aren't going to be passing on the virus.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I'm a born-again Christian, I'm not Catholic. It's not the exact same thing.

You take the Bible as you take any piece of literature or conversation. The pieces you leave in question have suffered through translation, the stories however, have remained steady and have been echoed throughout the rest of the Bible. Why wouldn't God just put it as is? I believe in the all-knowing God, more intelligent than than we can fathom in a thousand lifetimes. I tend to think that the creator of the universe would be able to express Himself quite clearly had that been his intention.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, Proverbs, and Zechariah- among many others, can be documented over 1,000 years before Christ's birth, and all were written before his birth. Read Isaiah 53, the chapter is loaded with fulfilled prophecies.

I'm not in a herd of mindless sheep. I do not support the pope, nor the Catholic church. What I place my faith and trust in is Jesus and His Word. Nothing more or nothing less.

 

[Shadowmancer]

I wasn't saying that they were the exact same thing, but more that the main tenets of what ever denomination, which will be the two commandments that Jesus said, Will be what is the same, but the interpretation of the rest will be different.

 

[Tastycles]

That "Nostradamus" quote was made up by someone post-september 11. They then proceeded to attribute it to Nostradamus. Who may or may not have been writing about events that had already been. The one commonly attributed to the Great fire of London could also be referring to the reign of Bloody Mary the elder sister of Queen Elizabeth I. so don't trust everything that is said either by Nostradamus or by those claiming to have prophecies by Nostradamus.

There were a lot of fakes, and I thought the one I stated was accurate, but Snopes tells me it isn't. What he actually said was "In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror." Asides from the fact that Nostradamus is more vague than tabloid astrologers, it still serves to prove my point.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, Proverbs, and Zechariah- among many others, can be documented over 1,000 years before Christ's birth, and all were written before his birth. Read Isaiah 53, the chapter is loaded with fulfilled prophecies.

I appreciate that, but that was my point. There may be fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, but there is also books of scripture that didn't make it in, a decision made by man. I am saying that within those books there will be unfulfilled prophecies omitted for effect.

 

[TwistofRKO]

You can say it was a decision by man, but I see everything that happens as controlled by an all-mighty being. The Bible has stood the test of time, and has escaped absolute abolishment, and is threatened more than any other religious book around the world. I see it as the book God intended for, as he knows the past, present, and future. Therefore, I believe the Bible assembled for the modern world, which has stood for a few hundred years, is the book God wanted in our hands. You can disagree with me, but this is what I believe.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I believe in God & Satan. I believe in Heaven & Hell. I'm open minded enough to listen to anything and everything. I'm willing to sit down and take in any possible solutions to the Religious situation. However, I'm not close minded enough to merely push it off as being impossible merely because there isn't any type of "scientific proof". That's the one thing that annoys me, mainly because a few things go without major or any, scientific proof, yet because those things aren't pushed like a lot of people tend to push Religion, they don't get questioned as being false, like God, Heaven, Hell, etc.. would.

The only thing I found honestly stupid about Religion, is certain groups. (ie. Christians, for example) Taking the Christian religion as a platform, here you have a group of religious believers.. who set out to feel that anyone mainly who believes in God, and accepts Jesus into their life.. they'd be saved. That's it, really.. just accept Jesus into your life, and apparently you get into Heaven. As if acceptance is like a master key.. despite whatever harmful or hateful acts you've committed within your life. (ie. murder/rape)

What's more.. Christian's are arguably the biggest religious group to openly bash Gay's and Lesbian's, saying that they are an abomination and silly crap like that. Yet they're also the same religious group that would turn around in a heartbeat and say "God loves all God's children". So, isn't that a hypocritical statement?

Finally, my biggest flaw with Christians (not trying to weed them out, mind you, as I'm open to their beliefs) anyways.. my biggest flaw with them.. is the underhandedness a lot of them hold. In Church, you'll see one of the most impressive gatherings you'd ever seen. People will come together, get along and generally seem to love one another..

Yet once Church is over, said and done with.. each of those individuals go back to their daily lives.. outside of that 'said' Church. And upon doing so, may from time to time, come into conflict and contact with other 'said' Church-going-members. At which point, you can pretty much throw love and overall togetherness out the window.. because at that point, it's like they believe outside the walls of a Church, God isn't watching them being cruel, harsh, rude and generally heartless to one another. That's quite possibly my biggest flaw with the Christian way of doing things.

And to finish, once again, I AM of open minded belief and of a willingness to accept that ALL things are possible. And anything is believable and within the realm of being able to accomplish or have happen. More or less, you can do anything if you merely set your mind to it and believe in yourself. (ie. Religion is real to several thousands, millions even, of people.. but it's never more important than to those that it creates a new found willingness to believe in anything being capable of happening.) So on that note.. I say whether you believe in it or not.. don't try to shove your theories down other people's throats as being real or anything other than your own one-time given opinion.

 

[NSL]

I'm going to be honest here. I'm not sure what I believe, or don't believe in. Belief has never been a strong suit of mine. Here's what I do know. I have no faith in anything. If there is a God, then I have no faith in him. If Buddha is the "correct" religion, then I have no faith. If Shinto is the closest thing to "truth", then I have no faith.

I've had way too many bad things happen to me, to have faith in something that would do this to me. I lost my dad at 16. I know people never know their dads, or lose their dads far earlier, but to me, it was devastating. I won't let my beliefs, and faith, rest on what's happened to someone else. I can only form my decisions on what's happened to me. I had a horrible childhood. Sure, I had a home, food, and clothing, but I didn't have a family, and I'd take that over any of those. I've run into problems at every turn with my son, and seem to get screwed over with each situation.

I would love to have faith in something. To know there's something out there, that can answer all my questions, and guide me through every problem, would be lovely. But, I'm too cynical to believe that one day all of my prayers will be answered.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I believe in reincarnation though. If you do good, you'll come back good, and vice versa. I have the word KARMA tattooed on my body for that same reason. I know when I die, I'll be nothing more than a corpse in the ground. It's my spirit I'm worried about.


In essence, if there is a God, I haven't seen him yet.

 

[Sivsyboi]

Personally, I don't think religion is my thing. People have the right to believe what they want, and shouldn't be critisized for it. My Mum goes to church every Sunday, I don't. We don't get annoyed at each other for believing different things.

What I'm saying is that people can believe in God if they want, but they shouldn't try to force others into it. Many people use religion as the reason we are here, others use stuff like the big bang. If you want to use religion or science for the reason, then all power to you. I don't need to know and that's the way I like it.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I believe in God & Satan. I believe in Heaven & Hell. I'm open minded enough to listen to anything and everything. I'm willing to sit down and take in any possible solutions to the Religious situation. However, I'm not close minded enough to merely push it off as being impossible merely because there isn't any type of "scientific proof". That's the one thing that annoys me, mainly because a few things go without major or any, scientific proof, yet because those things aren't pushed like a lot of people tend to push Religion, they don't get questioned as being false, like God, Heaven, Hell, etc.. would.

Good points.

The only thing I found honestly stupid about Religion, is certain groups. (ie. Christians, for example) Taking the Christian religion as a platform, here you have a group of religious believers.. who set out to feel that anyone mainly who believes in God, and accepts Jesus into their life.. they'd be saved. That's it, really.. just accept Jesus into your life, and apparently you get into Heaven. As if acceptance is like a master key.. despite whatever harmful or hateful acts you've committed within your life. (ie. murder/rape)

It's not as much just acceptance as it is asking forgiveness for what you've done with accepting Jesus into your life as a part of it.

That's the great thing about it, ya know, he would have saved Hitler so there's nothing you can really do that Jesus wouldn't forgive you for if you really meant it.

What's more.. Christian's are arguably the biggest religious group to openly bash Gay's and Lesbian's, saying that they are an abomination and silly crap like that. Yet they're also the same religious group that would turn around in a heartbeat and say "God loves all God's children". So, isn't that a hypocritical statement?

Do people get carried away? Yes. People get carried away with everything. The point is being against the act of homosexuality, and that being the wrong. When you verbally abuse them, that's the sin on your own individual part. I personally don't agree with homosexuality, I do believe it's wrong, but I'm not hating the person for the sin, I'm hating the sin itself.

Finally, my biggest flaw with Christians (not trying to weed them out, mind you, as I'm open to their beliefs) anyways.. my biggest flaw with them.. is the underhandedness a lot of them hold. In Church, you'll see one of the most impressive gatherings you'd ever seen. People will come together, get along and generally seem to love one another..

Yet once Church is over, said and done with.. each of those individuals go back to their daily lives.. outside of that 'said' Church. And upon doing so, may from time to time, come into conflict and contact with other 'said' Church-going-members. At which point, you can pretty much throw love and overall togetherness out the window.. because at that point, it's like they believe outside the walls of a Church, God isn't watching them being cruel, harsh, rude and generally heartless to one another. That's quite possibly my biggest flaw with the Christian way of doing things.

I think that's very stereotypical and an inaccurate portrayal of a lot of Christians.

You'll see two-faced people in all walks of life. There are policemen who speed, there are drug councilors who take drugs, I mean this list stretches to every type of person you'll meet. You remember the worst from a group, sure, but that doesn't necessarily reflect anything at all on the majority of people.

 

[The Doctor]

I think religion is a personal choice and shouldn't be forced on anyone. Practice your religion quietly.
I also don't see why evolution and creation are mutually exclusive. Most of the Bible is symbolic. Why could't God have created early man who evolved into what they are today?

One thing I hate about people who follow my religion (Christianity) is their intolerance. It doesn't matter whether you're gay, or Arab, or whatever. Everyone is forgiven and accepted. Stop using religion as an excuse to be a douche.

I don't talk about religion, and don't let it get in the way of my relationships. It shouldn't be the focus of you, just something about you. Example, my name's Matt, I like wrestling, video games, using the computer, creating aart on the computer, and I happen to be a Christian. I won't talk to you about it, I won't call you a SINNER!!11!! or tell you you're going to hell. That, to me, goes against the message of tolerance.

Religion shouldn't be the forefront of anyone. IT's a personal choice, and you're not going to convince anyone.

 

[TwistofRKO]

It's not the point of shoving it down one's throat. Nobody appreciates that, and the sensible don't encourage it, Jesus didn't encourage it. But it is something a Christian, in particular, should bring up. Jesus himself commands his followers to spread his gospel and be a light unto the lost. That doesn't mean you walk into a crowded movie theater and yell fire, but it sure doesn't mean to keep it hidden. Stay respectable, it's not much different than many other things in life.

 

[The Doctor]

Yes, spread the Good News, but only when the situation commands it. It's bad form to try and inject it randomly into conversations. In fact, my youth group leader made fun of people like that. There's a time and a place for everything, and it's very hard to find a time to bring up religion.

 

[Dave]

I don't believe in any religion or anything like that. I am of the opinion that all religions are now are self important, money making machines that don't give a damn about the people that follow them or not. There is so many flaws in religion that it is unbelieveable and I persoanlly could never believe in any of them. the commonly told story is to be beli

New age religion is just a joke. Scientology is perhaps the worst thing to ever grace this world and the sooner people realise that the better. The Lisa MacPherson thing was just sick. I know that no one will ever really know the real story but if the commonly told story is to be believed then she was tortured until death just because she slandered it. I am atheist and I believe that there is nothing out there in terms of divine powers. If people choose to believe differently then that is fine. I think that people should be allowed to think and have faith in whatever they like. I for one though do not believe in any of it. Many have said that I am a bad person because of my lack of faith. However, why do you have to believe in religion to be a good person. Especially when most religion teach you to try and covert people of other religions to yours.

In my humble opinion, religion is just far too devisive and people will believe it over their own common sense, which is scary to me.

 

[Kip The Fury]

Thought id add my views to this thread as religion is something that always seems to cause massive arguments...

I'm Athiest, the idea of God has never really appealed to me and science has provided a lot more evidence, my personal opinion. I don't care what anyone else belives thats your choice and i respect that, i'm not going to attack your beliefs or think any differently because of them.

What really annoys me about religion are people who feel the need to fight and argue and push to convert me, or even worse look down on me because i am an athiest. I choose to believe what i believe, that doesnt make me less of a person than someone who believes in God. I don't need to believe in an all powerful being in the sky to live my life with good morals and values, i can do that on my own.

Religion was invented by the Mayans as a form of control and has simply evolved into what it is today, major christian holidays were taken from other religions such as paganism. That being said i can see where religion provides hope and a focus for people and a guide to live there lives by and thats fine, i respect that. Just dont come after me to try and force me to change my mind.

Live and let live...

 

[Milkyway!]

I don't believe in any religion or anything like that. I am of the opinion that all religions are now are self important, money making machines that don't give a damn about the people that follow them or not.

Keep in mind Dave, I'm not talking about a mega church when I am talking about my church. A mega church in which holds around 10,000+ people I would certainly have to agree with you. For the simple fact of, if you actually listen to the preachers message, more often than not, its on money. Basically you can tell if its about money or not, by the words a preacher chooses. If money comes up in the first 5 minutes, then more than likely you've got yourself a corrupt douchebag in it for money.

Thats interesting Dave, as I myself are religious. At one point in my life, I tried the spirits, and even preached some. I'm no longer doing such a thing, but I can guarentee you its not about money, in some places. My church membership is at a very small church, about 80-90 people attend on a good day, 10-30 on a rough day. To say money means nothing in the church, is obsurd, but it certainly isn't a key component to the church. Money is needed to pay the light bill, keep suplies for the rest rooms, class rooms, upkeep on the church itself, upkeep on the fellowship hall, etc.

To proclaim a church, tabernacle, temple, mosque doesn't care about you is nonsense. Obviously these places are there for a greater sense of worship for the God that you worship. If the person beside you doesn't care about you, that shouldn't really matter because of the simple fact a church is more about worshiping your God, than it is anything else. Don't get me wrong, I love each any every member at my church, and take the vistors in with open arms when I can, but to say they just don't care is silly.

There is so many flaws in religion that it is unbelieveable and I persoanlly could never believe in any of them. the commonly told story is to be beli

Well Dave, thats your personal opinion. I'm not going to question you, or try to force my personal religion on you, or anyone elses. Hopefully though, you can see through a bit of logic, it simply makes no sense any other way that there is some higher being out there, no matter what you call him, that is forcing things like Photosynthesis, The Big bang, Evolution, etc. If there was a no God, I personally fail to see how these things would just magically happen.

New age religion is just a joke.

Well its what that person believes in. I don't understand it myself, but, hey thats a personal decision one must make within themselves. No one is fit to question anyone elses life style, nor are they fit to judge ones life style in calling them stupid.

I'll give you an example as to just what I mean. Obviously, you watch wrestling, as you belong to a wrestling forum, and I've seen a few posts of yours inside the wrestling section. Overall, wrestling is generally looked down upon in todays socioty, because its fake. But for some odd reason, we here at this internet forum talk about it daily, some more than others, but we still do it. Who are they to question our lifestyle choices, in being entertained by something we enjoy?

Scientology is perhaps the worst thing to ever grace this world and the sooner people realise that the better.

I find Scientology to make no since myself. Just as I explained above though, who are we to question their logic, and heart in this so called religion? You deny theres, as they deny yours, as they deny mine. Everyone has a right to believe in what they want, its not our place to judge them on it.

The Lisa MacPherson thing was just sick.

Agreed.

I know that no one will ever really know the real story but if the commonly told story is to be believed then she was tortured until death just because she slandered it.

Heh, of course its just like everything else Dave, propagandized, and no one really knows the full story behind it. Then again you really are just pointing out Scientology for one death of a woman being tortured. When you fail to underline the fact that more people have been murdered in the name of religion than anything in the world as history shows. Medieval wars were sparked by religion. The Catholics and Protestant wars were sparked by religion. The Iraq war were in now, sparked by religion. The Holocaust, WW2 was sparked by the belief that Germans were better than everyone else, and felt it was their natural rights to rule the world.

Its simple Dave, theres radicals in everything that comes out of everything in this world. Theres nothing rational people can do about it, and nothing we can do about it. Its just the fact of the matter is, certain radicals are willing to go as far as killing others, and/or themselves in name of their religion. No?

I am atheist and I believe that there is nothing out there in terms of divine powers. If people choose to believe differently then that is fine. I think that people should be allowed to think and have faith in whatever they like. I for one though do not believe in any of it.

Dave, I am a religious person myself, and if you really don't mind as to giving me a few reason as to why you don't believe in religion. I'm not going to try and alter your lifestyles, nor beliefs, I'm just curious as to how anyone can see anything else. Peoples point of veiw really intrests me when it comes to religion.

Many have said that I am a bad person because of my lack of faith.

That makes no since to me. As, one can have good morals without religion. Its just them trying to guilt you into believing in that certain religion, and well, they aren't really doing their religion any good in doing such a thing as shoving things down someone throat, will only make them throw up.

However, why do you have to believe in religion to be a good person.

It doesn't.

Especially when most religion teach you to try and covert people of other religions to yours.

Well spreading the word, and telling people can help people in their problems Dave. While, it may not help you with your personal problems, I know some of my biggest personal problems in my life have went to God, and I know my God has never failed me one time. Theres nothing wrong with spreading the word, as long as you're not forcing it upon people as so many people do.

In my humble opinion, religion is just far too devisive and people will believe it over their own common sense, which is scary to me.

Thats your personal belief then. I respect that. As to your common sense remark, that goes with radicals.

 

[Dave]

Keep in mind Dave, I'm not talking about a mega church when I am talking about my church. A mega church in which holds around 10,000+ people I would certainly have to agree with you. For the simple fact of, if you actually listen to the preachers message, more often than not, its on money. Basically you can tell if its about money or not, by the words a preacher chooses. If money comes up in the first 5 minutes, then more than likely you've got yourself a corrupt douchebag in it for money.

Thats interesting Dave, as I myself are religious. At one point in my life, I tried the spirits, and even preached some. I'm no longer doing such a thing, but I can guarentee you its not about money, in some places. My church membership is at a very small church, about 80-90 people attend on a good day, 10-30 on a rough day. To say money means nothing in the church, is obsurd, but it certainly isn't a key component to the church. Money is needed to pay the light bill, keep suplies for the rest rooms, class rooms, upkeep on the church itself, upkeep on the fellowship hall, etc.

To proclaim a church, tabernacle, temple, mosque doesn't care about you is nonsense. Obviously these places are there for a greater sense of worship for the God that you worship. If the person beside you doesn't care about you, that shouldn't really matter because of the simple fact a church is more about worshiping your God, than it is anything else. Don't get me wrong, I love each any every member at my church, and take the vistors in with open arms when I can, but to say they just don't care is silly.

Yeah, I was addressing the mega churches. Small communal gatherings are fine. People from a shared community getting together to praise whoever they prey to is erfectly fine in my opinion. But let's not forget that everything in this world is about money. Nothing could exist without money and money makes the world go round. I like the environment in a church. Although I am atheist, I have been inside a few on rare occassions and I have to say that sometimes they can be great. Knowing that you share something in common with your neighbour is a great feeling and the work that some churches do is amazing. The charitable nature of churches, especially Christian churches cannot be denied and for that reason I have no qualms about community outreach in churches.

Also, when I say that churches do not care about their followers, I believe that there is some truth to that. Not in the churches that you go to. Those kind of churches are community based and have helped hundres of people I am sure. What I am talking about is that huge religions and churches have no idea who you are. As long as you are paying your fees every week then they couldn't give a shit. It is my opinion that if you believe in a "God", then you should be allowed to praise wherever you like. You shouldn't need to go to church/mosque/temple every week to prove that you are a follower.

Well Dave, thats your personal opinion. I'm not going to question you, or try to force my personal religion on you, or anyone elses. Hopefully though, you can see through a bit of logic, it simply makes no sense any other way that there is some higher being out there, no matter what you call him, that is forcing things like Photosynthesis, The Big bang, Evolution, etc. If there was a no God, I personally fail to see how these things would just magically happen.

I know that you believe in God making things possible but I could not be more against that idea. For me, I will believe what is put in front of me. I have time to study "The Origin of the Species" and I have to say that it offered me a lot of answers in terms of evolution. The same goes for Photosynthesis and the Big Bang. There are many theories as to why these things happened and the evidence is just too strong to deny. I realise that religion is all about faith but science has just given me more to believe in. If there was some evidence for Intelligent design then I would be more open to the theory but right now I can't.

Well its what that person believes in. I don't understand it myself, but, hey thats a personal decision one must make within themselves. No one is fit to question anyone elses life style, nor are they fit to judge ones life style in calling them stupid.

I'll give you an example as to just what I mean. Obviously, you watch wrestling, as you belong to a wrestling forum, and I've seen a few posts of yours inside the wrestling section. Overall, wrestling is generally looked down upon in todays socioty, because its fake. But for some odd reason, we here at this internet forum talk about it daily, some more than others, but we still do it. Who are they to question our lifestyle choices, in being entertained by something we enjoy?

That's a very good argument and I think that you have hit something there. The problem with it is that we all know that wrestling is fake and we come here in the knowledge that it is so. Religion is completely different because the mystery regarding whether a higher being is still not solved. I personally do not believe in a "God" for many reasons. All the usual ones aminly, like disability, death, war. Why would a "God" who loves his people allow this to happen. If you are right and it is a Christian God why does he not interven and stop wars? He has the power to do so. Or any other God for that matter, why would they allow people to die in their names?

I find Scientology to make no since myself. Just as I explained above though, who are we to question their logic, and heart in this so called religion? You deny theres, as they deny yours, as they deny mine. Everyone has a right to believe in what they want, its not our place to judge them on it.

Agreed.

Heh, of course its just like everything else Dave, propagandized, and no one really knows the full story behind it. Then again you really are just pointing out Scientology for one death of a woman being tortured. When you fail to underline the fact that more people have been murdered in the name of religion than anything in the world as history shows. Medieval wars were sparked by religion. The Catholics and Protestant wars were sparked by religion. The Iraq war were in now, sparked by religion. The Holocaust, WW2 was sparked by the belief that Germans were better than everyone else, and felt it was their natural rights to rule the world.

Its simple Dave, theres radicals in everything that comes out of everything in this world. Theres nothing rational people can do about it, and nothing we can do about it. Its just the fact of the matter is, certain radicals are willing to go as far as killing others, and/or themselves in name of their religion. No?

It's true that there is nothing that rational people can do about it but are you telling me there is nothing that a God can do against it. It really annoys me that people will die in the name of something that has no factual evidence to support it. I think that people should be free to believe whatever they want but to die for it!? Some people pity me because I have no faith. They would say that I am pitiful for not believing in a higher power. I might be going to Hell or wherever but why!? I have been a good person for my entire life. I never upset people and I live a good, meaningful life. Are you telling me that I have no right to go to paradise because I do not see any factual evidence for a God? That, for me is the fundamental flaw in religion. It os so exclusionist and that's what I don't like.

Dave, I am a religious person myself, and if you really don't mind as to giving me a few reason as to why you don't believe in religion. I'm not going to try and alter your lifestyles, nor beliefs, I'm just curious as to how anyone can see anything else. Peoples point of veiw really intrests me when it comes to religion.

I hope I have.

That makes no since to me. As, one can have good morals without religion. Its just them trying to guilt you into believing in that certain religion, and well, they aren't really doing their religion any good in doing such a thing as shoving things down someone throat, will only make them throw up.

It annoys me that two identical people who have lived the exact same life, done the exact same things, been without sin and helped thier neghbours are treated differently in the eyes of a God simply because of their beliefs. One will rot in Hell, whilst the other one gets to live in paradise. That annoys me more than anything. They have been equally good but just because one of them believes in a supreme power, that gives them prominence over the other. If so, that is completely flawed.

Well spreading the word, and telling people can help people in their problems Dave. While, it may not help you with your personal problems, I know some of my biggest personal problems in my life have went to God, and I know my God has never failed me one time. Theres nothing wrong with spreading the word, as long as you're not forcing it upon people as so many people do.

I think that people telling others about religion when they are in times of misfortune or desperation is wrong. A lot of people have found God this way and I think that they have been taken advantage of. I think that no matter how bad a problem gets, it will always get better through a good attitude and a willingness to beat the problem. People do not need a higher power to beat it for them. All the problems I have encountered in my life have been solved by me and my friends. Not once have I went to God in search of answers and I don't feel as if I need to. People who have found God in this way have every right to believe in it but I would warn them to believe in it for the right reasons and not just coincidence. If you know what I mean. People's situation will always improve and some may see it is because of devine intervention when it could just be because they have worked at remedying it themselves.

Thats your personal belief then. I respect that. As to your common sense remark, that goes with radicals.

I am not a radical. I just believe what I do. I personally cannot see how people can believ in things that, in my opinion, have no scientific fact or theory behind them. Just my opinion though.

 

[Milkyway!]

Before I get started, I am going to say with all respect, I do not know anything about many religions, outside of my own. So, when I speak and try and reply to the best of my knowledge, it is mostly coming from The Bible itself, and I cannot speak on behalf of anyother relgion, as I do not belong to any other religion. I'm not necassarily defending my religion alone, but am defending all religions, using mine as the main example.

Yeah, I was addressing the mega churches.

Don't knock us all, because theres some in it simply for the money. Steyotyper! But in all seriousness, there are some good mega churches. While everyone may not know everyone, and there may be big bucks in it, you can't deny the fact that they have that many vistors for a reason. There may be tons of compromising, and tons of contraversy throughout the church, but you have to respect those incharge of the church. (Pastor//7 deacons) because they have a load and a half on them.

Small communal gatherings are fine.

Glad to hear your aproval. While I enjoy small communal gatherings a lot more than a mega church, the mega churches in my hometown (theres two, each have about 10,000+ each) are both very respectable churches, its just impossible for everyone to be in one mind and accord as the bible says, so I choose not to go to such churches. While money is a much bigger object than it should be at these churches, they have A LOT more to upkeep than my little old church as well.

People from a shared community getting together to praise whoever they prey to is erfectly fine in my opinion.

Glad for your approval once again.

But let's not forget that everything in this world is about money.

My pastor preaches "Money is the root of all evil" quite often himself. The entire world is about money, because you have to have it to survive. Without it the church would die off, the bills wouldn't be made, the pastor might not get fed, families in need wouldn't have anywhere to go to. Money is needed to keep the church stiving and for it to be able to survive. Its silly to believe otherwise, because as you said the entire world is about money. As, its what we buy with.

Speaking of families in need I'd like to share with you a lot about a church. My church usually comes out with a gain of about 1000-2000 dollars more than what it had. Most of this money goes to families in need. Theres shelters my church has donated food to, theres all kinds of fund raisers going around from the mega churches for these fund raises, we just recently had one for a day agaisnt meth, hosted by about 6 churches. Money is very much needed, for the simple fact of a lot of people rely on a church. I'm fairly certain 20% of all money taken in, goes out to people in need.

I like the environment in a church. Although I am atheist, I have been inside a few on rare occassions and I have to say that sometimes they can be great.

Thats one of the many reasons I attend church. Granted, I've not went in about a month myself (if you really want the reasons, I don't mind sharing, just ask), my church is my family I'd trade my real family, for my church family anyday of the week. They've always been there for me, along with God.

Knowing that you share something in common with your neighbour is a great feeling and the work that some churches do is amazing.

Agreed.

The charitable nature of churches, especially Christian churches cannot be denied and for that reason I have no qualms about community outreach in churches.

Thats great that the churches, mosques, tabernacles, and temples do that around your parts too. Its a crying shame, becuase I've been to places that don't do such things. They just glutten their money, and do nothing to help no one with it. Thats not what religion is about, and thats not what God is about. Whatever religion you may be, in almost everyone of them that I've studied, the overall feeling is love and mercy. The more, the better.

Also, when I say that churches do not care about their followers, I believe that there is some truth to that. Not in the churches that you go to. Those kind of churches are community based and have helped hundres of people I am sure. What I am talking about is that huge religions and churches have no idea who you are. As long as you are paying your fees every week then they couldn't give a shit.

Well my church is considered to be Baptist. We belong to no association, in that the one we did belong to had a huge scandle, they switched up the beliefs, etc. Our church didn't want to be assocciated with it, so we just broke off and we are now an independant church. Overall, the church associations are to benifit one another. From my understanding most of them give a bit of money into the association itself, as an insurance type thing as to if your church was needing a pastor, they could send people by until you find the right guy. If your church gets into financial situations, they'd stop making you send money, and they'd send money to you. That type of stuff. Its benificial for everyone in some shape form or fasion. They may not know me, but they do care about me.

It is my opinion that if you believe in a "God", then you should be allowed to praise wherever you like. You shouldn't need to go to church/mosque/temple every week to prove that you are a follower.

Well, the Bible itself say forsake not the assembling of thy brethern. Its really as simple as that when people say you should keep going to church etc. Once I can get my sleeping patterns back to normal, and I'm not going to bed at 2pm and waking up at 11pm, like I did today. Then I will certainly be back into my church myself, I feel guilty not going in the first place. As for your "you should be able to worship anywhere" thing, you're correct. You can worship anywhere. But the Bible clearly says Faith come by hearing of the word, and how might they hear without a Preacher. The church is a simple way for you to be able to hear the word of God, from someone that should be more knowledgable than you in the word of God.

I know that you believe in God making things possible but I could not be more against that idea.

Well, The Bible does say All things are possible by him. Him being God of course. I believe every word the book says. To throw you an example, I'll use something that really sealed the deal on me believing in God in my life.

I have a little sister, who is now three. I would consider her my little girl when shes around me, as she is like my shadow. What I'm getting at though is simple, when she was born she had a huge heart murmur, the doctor she was currently attending gave her medicine, that said it should allow her heart murmur to close up on its own. Well after a few months of that, nothing happened, and my little sister stopped growing for the most part. Her heart was being overworked, etc. I remember my church I attend to prayed over her to become better. To make a very long story short. At 6 months old she had heart surgery. It turned out she had 3 holes in her heart, and shouldn't have made it past 2 week old as the doctors say. Now, if a doctor tells someone they are going to die, doesn't necassarilly mean they are going to die. But, from what I've heard and researched thats a mirical in itself that she lived. And, well this is my little girl today.

(The image isn't the best, as it was taken on a cell phone)

No traces whatsoever of her heart ever being bad. The scar from her surgery is nearly cleared up, and theres no scaring on her heart whatsoever. Call it a coincidence all you want, I call it an act of God.

For me, I will believe what is put in front of me. I have time to study "The Origin of the Species" and I have to say that it offered me a lot of answers in terms of evolution.

Aren't those the same people that say we come from monkies? Those are theories, they could be correct. But, I fail to see where, or why, this would just magically happen in that a species just dies out. Why didn't the mamoth evolve into something greater? Why didn't the sabertooth tiger do the same? Same for the dinosoars, same for anything else extinct really. It makes absolutely no sense to me as to why some can do it, and others can't. Call it survival of the fittest, call it whatever you want. I just don't get it myself.

The same goes for Photosynthesis and the Big Bang. There are many theories as to why these things happened and the evidence is just too strong to deny.

Theres no evidence that the Big Bang ever happened. Its a simple theory. But to quote a very knowledgable posted on this site alone, if thats what happened, why did it magically happen magicall? I call it God. Photosynthesis has happened since the beggening of time, its a vital point in our life, why did the plants just magically start doing such a thing? I call it God.

I realise that religion is all about faith but science has just given me more to believe in. If there was some evidence for Intelligent design then I would be more open to the theory but right now I can't.

I can't deny some of the things science says either. Science is taking the mysteries of the universe, and slowly trying to unwravvle them using evidence they find, in their findings. No one can deny concrete evidence, but the fact of the matter, why did all these things just magicall happen? What magicall created earth, shot the Big Bang off, and cause photosynthesis to happen? I call it God.

That's a very good argument and I think that you have hit something there. The problem with it is that we all know that wrestling is fake and we come here in the knowledge that it is so.

Well, it was just a metaphor to put in more simple terms, as I've thought this out, and have said it to other people before in my lifetime.

Religion is completely different because the mystery regarding whether a higher being is still not solved.

Its all about Faith, and it will never be solved here in this world. Simple as that.

I personally do not believe in a "God" for many reasons. All the usual ones aminly, like disability, death, war. Why would a "God" who loves his people allow this to happen.

God may be with us daily, and he may try and guide us to do the right thing in the end, but just as hes doing that, the devil, or whatever evil being out there is right there with us, telling us to do the wrong thing. Some call it concious, I call it God, and Satan. As to why would he continue letting these things go on is simple, its out of love. Everything going on, isn't so much apart of his plan, but he has to give each and every person on the face of the earth a chance to really grasp, and understand who he is, and what hes about.

If you are right and it is a Christian God why does he not interven and stop wars?

The bible speaks of everything coming to pass in Revelations. I've read Revelations many times, and still only understand like, 2 of the chapters fully, but still, if you read Rev, and then you read your newspaper, it matches up. One world Gov, war after war, the battles over Isreal, etc. God created us, and he allows us to make our own choices, it will only be a matter of time before God intervenes.

He has the power to do so. Or any other God for that matter, why would they allow people to die in their names?

Thats not a question I can answer you. I've often questioned why God would let certain things happen during certain time periods, but I believe everything is happening for a reason. He allowed his own son die for us, honestly, it would be my honor to die in his name in the first place.

Agreed.

Agreed.

It's true that there is nothing that rational people can do about it but are you telling me there is nothing that a God can do against it.

As I've allready said about three times now. God will interven one day, but as for it being today, I don't know if it'll be so. God can do anything he wants, its all going by his plan anyways. If someone dies in his name, then I'm certain that person will be honored in Heaven for it, for eternity. Its not about down here on Earth that counts. As the bible says, lay your treasures in Heaven.

It really annoys me that people will die in the name of something that has no factual evidence to support it.

I gave you my factual evidence above about my little sister.

I think that people should be free to believe whatever they want but to die for it!? Some people pity me because I have no faith. They would say that I am pitiful for not believing in a higher power. I might be going to Hell or wherever but why!? I have been a good person for my entire life. I never upset people and I live a good, meaningful life. Are you telling me that I have no right to go to paradise because I do not see any factual evidence for a God?

According to the Bible, and according to what Jesus himself said. Then yes, you are going to hell. As I do not want to sound like an ass, and I don't wanna try and stuff it down your throat, I will not expand much more. But the book of James, says its not about the works that you down in the world, but its about faith. Works can not get you into heaven, paradise, etc. Only faith can.

That, for me is the fundamental flaw in religion. It os so exclusionist and that's what I don't like.

I'm sorry that you feel such a way, but as I said above. Jesus, and the apostles said otherwise, and thats all we have to go by here in this world.

I hope I have.

You have, in a very respectable manner, I might add.

It annoys me that two identical people who have lived the exact same life, done the exact same things, been without sin and helped thier neghbours are treated differently in the eyes of a God simply because of their beliefs.

Well first off, everyone has sin in their life. If anyone tells you otherwise, then the bible says they are liars. And as I allready told you, God himself said it was about faith, not works. As did James, and the apostle Paul preached the same himself. We cannot deny the fact that these were the men of God, and thats what they wrote in the Bible. Its what the Bible says, and thats all we have to go by. In this world.

One will rot in Hell, whilst the other one gets to live in paradise. That annoys me more than anything. They have been equally good but just because one of them believes in a supreme power, that gives them prominence over the other. If so, that is completely flawed.

As I do not want to continually repeat myself. I'll just repeat the word Faith, and Works.

I think that people telling others about religion when they are in times of misfortune or desperation is wrong. A lot of people have found God this way and I think that they have been taken advantage of. I think that no matter how bad a problem gets, it will always get better through a good attitude and a willingness to beat the problem. People do not need a higher power to beat it for them. All the problems I have encountered in my life have been solved by me and my friends. Not once have I went to God in search of answers and I don't feel as if I need to. People who have found God in this way have every right to believe in it but I would warn them to believe in it for the right reasons and not just coincidence. If you know what I mean. People's situation will always improve and some may see it is because of devine intervention when it could just be because they have worked at remedying it themselves.

I can't tell you anything to alter your decision. But, using myself again, I haven't really had the best of life myself. This past year being the hardest in quite sometime. My mother kicked me out twice, for various reasons. My step mother kicked me out, into going to stay with my mother again, who presumally hated me for quite some time. My dad did nothing to stop such things. During these times, I never felt safe, I never felt at home, except at one place. In church, with my God, with my real family. With my mamaw, papaw, Pastor, and God. Without these people, honestly I would have commited suicide a long time ago. I believe God put these people in my life for a reason, and he took care of me a lot himself during these times I never once went hungry, and I never once didn't have a bed to sleep in that night. God took care of me.

I am not a radical. I just believe what I do. I personally cannot see how people can believ in things that, in my opinion, have no scientific fact or theory behind them. Just my opinion though.

I'm not trying to disprove science, as I allready told you. But, I just fail to see the begenning of it all. They can explain the processes and give me names for it, but the overall beggening and the end, lies in Gods hand. For the bible says "I am Alpha and Omega, the beggening and the end, the first and the last" (That could be a little missworded as I did it off memory)

 

[TwistofRKO]

Yes, spread the Good News, but only when the situation commands it. It's bad form to try and inject it randomly into conversations. In fact, my youth group leader made fun of people like that. There's a time and a place for everything, and it's very hard to find a time to bring up religion.

I'm not saying you walk everywhere with your Bible in hand with a Jesus t-shirt on, but if you are in a casual conversation there's no reason it CAN'T be brought up. You have time for sports, politics, movies. Are those really less important than someone's soul? You don't redirect a conversation about the Knicks into the gospel, but there are certainly other opportunities you can invest into.

Your youth pastor may be on to something if he refers to picking the right situations, but completely off of what Jesus taught if he doesn't think it's very important to tell others about.

 

[The Doctor]

That's not waht I'm saying. The problem with religion is the interpretations of it. It has the ability to turn a "casual conversation" into a bitter argument.

I feel I am doing Jesus' work by bringing it up when asked about it, and I prefer to practice His message by doing, rather than saying, for example accepting a homosexual or a minority into my fold. By befriending all people and being tolerant, I believe that is what Jesus called us to do.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Ah ok. So many many things going crazy in this thread. Come to think of it, not totally sure if ive ever given my full veiw on this whole thing, on this forum. Ok, lemme see what I can do for everyone.

Firstly, to the OP. Yea, you should care if it offends someone, becuase you are disrespecting their lifestyle and beleifs. I know your all cool, and a hardass and everything becuase you dont belive in no god, but there is no need to look down upon others for their beleifs, as I do not look down upon you for your lack of beleif. I dont, in general. Do I think it makes a person / group of people look pretty fuckin arrogant to sit and spout off that there is no god, and that THEY know all the answers to everything in the universe? Yea, I do. Also, I dont think its any less logical to think a big ol dude who looks like he used to ride in a biker gang created everything, as opposed to everything just popping up for no fucking reason whatsoever one day. I wouldnt ever speak against them though. Its their right to belive whatever the shit they want.

I, personally, dont get down with organized religion much at all. At the same time, I belive in Jesus, his death, the rise from the tomb, and The Bible (to a certain extent) How, one may ask, can The NorCal do both? Well, I am simply open minded enough to realize, that just becuase I, personally belive in something, doesnt make it the correct thing. What I REALLY think, is that basically, all religions are pretty much about the same dude, just different versions of the story. I think its absolutely absurd for a member of one religion, to tell a member of another religion, that they are wrong, and are going to hell. Funny, as that makes you JUST as arrogant as the "hethens" that just told you God doesnt exist, and that you are a moron. Its the exact same thing. I also find it hilarious that people who, in one breath, praise Him as being such a loving, mercifull being, in the nect speak of Him as casting entire sects of humanity into the firey abyss simply for being different, even if ever so slightly, from what THEY belive. I strongly feel that the vanity, and arrogance of humans has damaged what the supreme being would want us all to do so very very badly. Its all about "im right, and your wrong"

"but NorCal!! teh bible sez..." well, dude. Not everyone belives in the damn bible. And thats totally fine. You honestly think The J Man would put everything on ONE book, and if people didnt buy that, then they were just, whatever, FUCKED? Nah. If you ever want a person to even be open to any aspect of your religion, your lifestyle, you first must be open to theirs. I dont know many people who would for even a second listen to another person who is threatening them with eternal damnation. I really dont. In a way, you are undoing all that is good about which you profess. God, Faith, all of that? its supposed to be about hope. Love. Kindness. Battling evil. Not about who is right and who is wrong. So fucking WHAT if someone says "I dont belive in God"...does that then make Him not real? Of course not. So when that person does "God's work" in displaying kindness, goodness, going against the evil in the world, wether they acknowledge it or not, they are STILL doing God's work. Isnt THAT what matters? No, not to most, becuase most "belivers" want to get a little smiley star sticker next to their name, thinking they "converted" someone. Once again, vanity, arrogance. Those just keep coming up. Dont they? Yet, how many will you drive away, with threats, and narrow mindedness? Your vanity, your arrogance? "Be a light unto the lost" I saw it earlier in this thread. Since when do lights, beacons of hope, speak words? They dont, they merely guide. I feel comfortable in saying I, myself, am that. I will not tell anyone they are going to hell. but DAMN if I wont set an example, by my actions, or what this relgion, what this set of beleifs, what this code, is ALL about. Actions speak louder than words, right? If someone sees me being different, being a beacon, and the Lord moves them to do so, they will ask about it. They will come on their own will. Not from being threatned. By being inspired. Inspiration, or threats, which sounds more like something Jesus, God, or whatever you call him / it would be involved with?

I firmly belive, when the final time comes for one of us, we will be face to face with the almighty, and regardless of which religion we did or didnt subscribe to, we will be judged on our actions, our character. It will be at this time, you will be allowed to acknowledge the one true god, that is, if you were a good person. Even if you were a bad person, you will have the oppurtunity to atone for your sins. After all, ol boy is mercifull, is he not? You wont be able to be fake sorry, of course. He is fuckin GOD, he will know if your truly sorry. it is my opinion that you damn near have to knock god over, and walk over the top of him, to go to hell. He is fricken God, I hardly think he expects us all to have this shit figured out while on earth. We are but mere men (and ladies).

Be tolerant. Love each other. Be kind. Give. Help. Fight evil, fight the dark. Be different. You will be fine. Absolutely fine.

 

[The Doctor]

NorCal, you puit it better than I ever could. I too believe that many of the religions are based on the same events as told by different people, and that the right way is to be tolerant and open-minded. My respect goes to you, sir.

 

[Tenta]

I just read NorCal and Milky's post in this.... They put it in a way I never could... Damn, that was good shit.

I'll tell you my expereince with the Catholic Chuch, and why I believe as I do now. But first, a little backstory:

I used to be a very Catholic little Tentasaurus Rex, and I used to go to Church every Sunday I could. My parents brought me, and I smiled and laughed with some of my friends after, as it was where I made a good portion of my friends.

Except, I had one friend who didn't go to Church with me. This friend of mine was my best friend, and we were inseparable.

"But Tentzilla, why didn't you go to Church together", you ask? Well, simply enough, she was Jewish, and it didn't matter no bit to me. she was my friend, and I loved her with all my heart. One day, we were actually destined to "marry". We got on a trampoline, and at the age of six, we professed we'd stay with one another forever and ever. (Pretty heavy for some kids, eh? LOL)

But the one place we didn't go together was Church. We couldn't my mom told me. It wasn't that my mom didn't want her there. She just couldn't come. And one day, when I was thirteen, I learned why.... the absolute hard way. We were in Church, and the topic of the sermon was "salvation". How do we get it? Who gets it? You know, that whole song and dance. I as a little kid didn't know a whole lot about other religions, but I knew enough to understand that Jewish people didn't believe in Jesus. I brought it up with my Jewish friend at one point, and we had a frank and open chat. At least, as frank and open as you can get at eleven. So I had an understanding that my friend and I didn't believe the same thing. And it didn't bother me any, especially with who she was. After all, we were married, so til death do us part, right? LOL.

Anyway, at some point, they went into who gets to Heaven, and my pastor said it quite simply: That one needs to believe in Jesus as the Son of God to get into Heaven. If someone didn't believe that, they would be cast into the fires of Hell. Now let me add this addendum; I, like NorCal, believe in Jesus, and the resurrection. I believe he did come back to life. However, I'm not sure if you must believe in Jesus as the son of God to reach the pearly gates. Still, I listened on, and was mortified. I started to sweat profusely; my friend was not going to Heaven. At least, that's how I took it. So, after Mass, I sought out the pastor, and asked exactly what he meant. I asked him if he believed jewish people went to Hell. And here is whagt the man said:

"Well, of course. How can they not see in such a thing. They are damned to a life of Hell. And I worry for your soul if you can't see such a thing."

I don't get usually too pissed, but for some reason, this lit a fuse. I became irate. I stomped away, before leaving a few choice words in my wake. Do I regret it now? Absolutely, but at the time, I was told my best friend for so long was going to Hell. That kinda shit weighs deep on someone at that age.

I guess my point is simple; there are some things I believe in the Church for, and some things that horrify me. I think everyone is capable of making it to Heaven. It may be a different form of Heaven, but it's still Heaven. I believe in God, Jesus, and most aspects of The Bible. But I also believe that we should be open for interpretation, and that religion was never meant to have one true answer. Rather, it's a fusion of multiple answers, provided by multiple religions.

After all, that's just my view. And I do have one more view; don't ever say my friend is going to Hell. That's a good way to set of Tentasaurus Rex.