Presidential Address on Iraq

[Mighty NorCal]

Because we should have done that years ago. I have an issue believing we couldn't have crushed those guys in nearly 9 years already. It's the same as Iraq: this whole nation building thing means jack if we hold them up forever.

this isnt a fucking video game, dude.

do you know how fucking afraid EVERYONE in that place is?

Walk into New York City tomorrow, and be looking for 3 people. and have everyone in the city be deathly afraid to help you find them

WHILE those three people try to kill you.

Thats the point of sending all of those forces from iraq there. So the crushing may commence.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yeah Iraq I get the problems with.

Afghanistan.....I'm not sure. I don't think we can validate being over there this long, especially not with how the "government" seems like it has a shelf life of a good 6 months once we're gone.

 

[klunderbunker]

this isnt a fucking video game, dude.

do you know how fucking afraid EVERYONE in that town is?

Walk into New York City tomorrow, and be looking for 3 people. and have everyone in the city be deathly afraid to help you find them

WHILE those three people try to kill you.

Thats the point of sending all of those forces from iraq there. So the crushing may commence.

Wasn't the Taliban "crushed" years ago? I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that. I'm saying I'm not sure if everything that's been put into it is worth it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Wasn't the Taliban "crushed" years ago? I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that. I'm saying I'm not sure if everything that's been put into it is worth it.

as a person who has seen the condition of things, i can tell you, they clearly have not.

We are however, most certainley winning.

 

[klunderbunker]

That last part is where you lose me a bit.

I'm not entirely sure we can in fact win this. Barring having troops there eternally, how is it possible to completely wipe out a group like this? I get that we've disrupted a lot of stuff and while I'm far from an expert on military strategy or terrorism or anything like that, I don't really see a way of ending this with a decisive victory. I would think the best we can do is just knock them down for a good while and hope they don't get up immediately.

 

[Hazardous]

Wasn't the Taliban "crushed" years ago? I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that. I'm saying I'm not sure if everything that's been put into it is worth it.

Oh dear god no. Nor do I believe they ever fully will be. They have the home field advantage here, and have such a grip over the people with fear, that we might never know who is a Taliban and who isn't until it's too late. They are a well oiled machine, just with twisted logic, and a lot of them moved out of the country, and are running things from those other countries. Remember hearing how a large number of them invaded Pakistan? They're everywhere, and the fact they can blend in with innocent people plays into their hand.

 

[klunderbunker]

Oh dear god no. Nor do I believe they ever fully will be. They have the home field advantage here, and have such a grip over the people with fear, that we might never know who is a Taliban and who isn't until it's too late. They are a well oiled machine, just with twisted logic, and a lot of them moved out of the country, and are running things from those other countries. Remember hearing how a large number of them invaded Pakistan? They're everywhere, and the fact they can blend in with innocent people plays into their hand.

So in short then, why fight a battle and lose resources and lives if there is no way to win?

 

[Moon Knight]

So in short then, why fight a battle and lose resources and lives if there is no way to win?

We can win, but remember this. You don't have to bomb a country to liberate it and defeat terrorism. We can defeat the Taliban, but there are other ways of doing it that don't involve bombing the fuck out of Afghanistan. Of course it depends on IF you want to defeat the Taliban, if the answer is no don't waste your time. Is Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban a security threat to its neighbours and the US or just another tin pot dictatorship thats of no real threat to anyone outside its own borders? Answer that and you will know if you should want to defeat the Taliban.

 

[Hazardous]

By helping the people in that area, we have been gaining their trust. Also helping train their policing forces. When I was back in basic training, we had 15-20 Afghan soldiers come to our base for some training. They hate the Taliban just as much as we do, but were always too afraid to do anything about it. They had no training, or knowledge of what to do. I had a chance to talk to a few of them, and they were really great people, and they said a few times how much they appreciated our help, plus the Americans help, in their home. That they hurt for our losses, and will do everything they can to help us out in this war. Is that not a sign of victory there? That we are able to help these people, to the point that they trust us enough to hunt these fuckers along side of us? While it's true that the Taliban numbers are a lot larger then most people think, we've also taken a huge chunk out of them, as well as taken out some of their TOP guys. Taking out Bin Ladin alone will not be enough, but it will deliver a crushing blow for the time being. But why fight? To show that we don't give up. That we will not stand for being attacked on our own soil, and not fight to the death for our country. Taliban will never be gone, in the same way that the Crips and Bloods will never be gone, or the KKK. their control over the people who fear them may still be there, but their numbers will fall, and that control will go way down, and really is that not what it's about? May not be able to fully rid the world of them, but to take all power and control away is second best option.

 

[klunderbunker]

By helping the people in that area, we have been gaining their trust. Also helping train their policing forces. When I was back in basic training, we had 15-20 Afghan soldiers come to our base for some training. They hate the Taliban just as much as we do, but were always too afraid to do anything about it. They had no training, or knowledge of what to do. I had a chance to talk to a few of them, and they were really great people, and they said a few times how much they appreciated our help, plus the Americans help, in their home. That they hurt for our losses, and will do everything they can to help us out in this war. Is that not a sign of victory there? That we are able to help these people, to the point that they trust us enough to hunt these fuckers along side of us? While it's true that the Taliban numbers are a lot larger then most people think, we've also taken a huge chunk out of them, as well as taken out some of their TOP guys. Taking out Bin Ladin alone will not be enough, but it will deliver a crushing blow for the time being. But why fight? To show that we don't give up. That we will not stand for being attacked on our own soil, and not fight to the death for our country. Taliban will never be gone, in the same way that the Crips and Bloods will never be gone, or the KKK. their control over the people who fear them may still be there, but their numbers will fall, and that control will go way down, and really is that not what it's about? May not be able to fully rid the world of them, but to take all power and control away is second best option.

Have we taken control? Over here you have people wanting to hold an international burn a Quran day, Muslims in general are considered to be evil, we're pouring billions and billions of dollars and thousands of lives into the Middle East, and the Taliban is still strong. It just seems like an awful lot of investment for such a limited payoff.

 

[Hazardous]

Have we taken control? Over here you have people wanting to hold an international burn a Quran day, Muslims in general are considered to be evil, we're pouring billions and billions of dollars and thousands of lives into the Middle East, and the Taliban is still strong. It just seems like an awful lot of investment for such a limited payoff.

Have we taken full control? No. Have we taken some? Yes. There are some areas of Afghanistan that are Taliban free now, and these are areas that were controlled by them before. Some progress is better than none at all. The media may have painted this as a in-and-out little quicky, but for the ones going in, the majority of us knew it would be a long process. I can't speak for NorCal, but myself personally, I figured 15-20 years minimum before we had the majority of it under control.

Now are you saying that it's a waste of 9 years and countless lives, in doing what has been done? You agreed that at the start this was a good idea, going in there, but to pull out in 3 or 4 years, what would that accomplish? Would have left the country in ruins, and in the hands of the same people.

Now as for the hate that goes on in our own country..err.. Continent. (sorry, have to include Canada and USA together somehow) That will never go away, and is only further driven by the media. As always. I posted in the Glenn Beck thread about my dislike for that type of people, because thats the attitude that really is no different that what the Taliban think, minus the killing (for now). The hate will go on here, that is one war that will never end.

 

[klunderbunker]

And to me, 15-20 years is not acceptable as a time table for a single war, if that's what you want to call it. I can't agree with being over there for such a long time to the point that by the end of such a period, the act that started it would have been before some of the troops that were born. To me it has lost focus, as it used to be about Bin Laden then it was about the Taliban and now it's about building Afghanistan plus taking out the Taliban which even though we knocked them out they're still around. It just doesn't sit well with me at all.

 

[Hazardous]

But unlike other wars, this wasn't a war on the country it's self, but rather a group of people. WW1, WW2, "Desert Storm" or w.e they call the Iraq one now, were all war's on the country it's self. This is a war on a group of people. That the difference there. This is a dangerous group, and the war has not lost focus, the re-building of their town's and cities is as a result of us blowing a lot of them up. Same as the US forces in Iraq. We're helping erect school's and hospitals as well. Things that are going to help them in the long run. Things they didn't have under the Taliban rule. Bin Ladin and the Taliban are still the #1 mission. Always have been, but the media doesn't talk about that as much anymore, because it lost it's "flavor". We had a picture of him up in our base, had a few on the shooting range, one that guys would throw knives at ect ect. Him and his people are target #1. But just like with the war on drugs, you have to catch a few small ones to work your way up to take out the top ones. Progress has been made, and will continue to be made. I personally would be insulted, and ashamed if it ended within the next 5 years, without us catching him.

 

[klunderbunker]

The building of the infrastructure is a very good thing and I wouldn't question that at all. What I would question is why the military is over there doing that work. I get that we need a military presence over there, but what it boils down to for me is that it's taken such a long time with so little to show for it. Like I said earlier, it comes down to we've put so much in and the benefits aren't going to even be able to make up for it. If we had Bin Laden today it doesn't mean much. The guy has been hiding in a cave for almost 9 years so it's not like he's been able to do much, at least not that we can see. I just don't think it's worth the cost. Granted like has been said, I can't see what's been done over there myself, but from here it doesn't look like enough.