Ah, KB, it appears that its merely come down to you and I. Who knew our war was going to explode over fucking Tommy Dreamer? Alas, while I understand that you are one of the smartest, if not the smartest, person on these boards, I must inform you officially that I am a Dreamer mark. The man personifies everything that is good about the business. So Ill go to war with him. Folks, if youre taking part in the Debaters League, Id advise you to turn to this page now. KB is absolutely astounding at debates, and Id like to think Im not too much under par myself. So this should be something
Good luck, KB
Youve awoken me
Oh I've been waiting for this. That has been my most consistent criticism: I don't go into enough details. Let's see what I can put together.
I dont particularly think you lack detail, KB. God knows youre detailed. Look at your reviews. What I think is the case is that sometimes you fail to dig deeper for your answers, in actually searching for the answer to your question. I feel as though you settle for the obvious choice, when you can do so much better. But thats just me
To begin with, I applaud your efforts on this as I've come to expect nothing less than greatness from you. However, you are indeed incorrect here. Why are you incorrect? Well I'm glad I asked that.
Well, I didnt particularly ask, but what the Hell, Ill hear you out.
[A.] Indeed, Mick Foley has won his share of matches. However, so have Gene Snitsky, Big Daddy V, and the One Man Gang. I'd say that it's safe to say that for a large amount of their careers, these men were jobbers to the stars. While they have impressive win/loss records, their records against major talents are simply abysmal. They did indeed win their matches against talent that were designed to be destroyed by them, yet whenever they reaped the rewards for their dominance, they always came up short.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, KB
. Id advise you to be extremely careful with your selections, there. Consider the men that you selected, KB. OMG, Mabel, and Snitsky? Sure, you
could label them as jobbers, but I feel as though theres a better term for these men. And as a matter of fact, Mick Foley actually fits in this category.
That category is a list of wrestlers I prefer to term monsters. Monsters are built up over a period of time, to provide fear for the companies top babyfaces, and to intimidate them to the fullest of extents. Sure, these monsters might also wind up doing the job for the top babyfaces, but in the process, theyre built up gradually to actually be placed on par with said top babyface. Theyre usually large, somewhat deformed beasts, and while some of them may lack talent, all serve the purpose of ultimately being fed to the best babyface.
Does that make them a jobber to the stars? Sure, I guess you could say that. Does that make them an actual jobber? Not necessarily, for as though their ultimate purpose on this Earth is to job, they still are allowed victories to keep them credible in the eyes of the fans, and to scare the living shit out of the crowd. Sometimes, that heel also tends to get the upper hand on the superstar of their choice. This is the case with Mick Foley, as youll see later in my argument.
I can just hear the argument now
Tenta, thats great, but what about men like Vader and Yokozuna? These men didnt wind jobbing to the babyfaces. They were dominant heels. And surely, they were monsters, as well.
Decent point in theory. But only in theory. And heres why:
A. Whether or not we acknowledge it, these heel monsters such as Vader and Yoko
did actually wind up doing the job to the babyface. For every Vader, theres a Sting. For every Yokozuna, theres a Bret Hart. Whatever the case may be, all heels wind up having to do the job to the babyface at some point. Otherwise, we wouldnt watch to see the face get his vengeance.
B. Even with that in mind, I feel as though theres a different category to place these men within. This a level of monstrosity that not only ran rampant through their promotion, but also were considered standard bearers. I would deem these men, juggernauts. Mick certainly isnt in this category, but I definitely see him more in the role of a monster.
I can hear you now, KB
But Tenta, Mick played a heel for only really half of his run in WWE. He also had periods in which he was a massive face.
Yeah, I guess youre right
Theres no way a monster can ever turn face
Certainly no monster has ever played the role of the good
. Holy Shit, look at that fucking Giant!
Granted, Andre also may just qualify for that juggernaut status I deemed earlier, but actually, Mick Foley and Andre The Giant actually have far more in common than you can ever imagine.
Both are monstrosities of this Earth, for varying reasons. Mick was a monstrosity because of his sadistic nature, and his need to inflict pain upon his opponents. Whether it was Mankind, Cactus, or even Dude, Mick just had a sick twist to his characters that otherwise made them not fit to walk this Earth as normal beings. This was your thinking mans monster, a guy who looked nothing like societies wishes, and took out all of his frustrations on the same men that judged him. Andre, meanwhile, was certainly an abnormal human being, by our standards. I mean, come one, how many seven feet tall men do you ever see. Still, the guy was viewed as different, and wasnt like us. He, in societies perception, was also a monster.
But theres something else these men have in common that makes them very similar
A likeable personality, and a sense of humor that brightened up the room. Sure, Micks characters could be articulate, as Mick was eloquent in real life. They (Micks personalities) could say things that made you laugh, and could do things you enjoyed. But deep down at the very core of their nucleus, they were all very much the same
They were bloodthirsty creatures, that wanted nothing more than your pain to help them sleep at night.
Andre also had a mean streak a mile long too. The guy was just a fucking terror to have to deal with
Especially if you got him smashed
Still, wrestlers hated going against Andre, just because they knew the amount of pain theyd be in. Andre horrified so many of his opponents, and no face or heel wanted to wrestle Andre. Shit, he even fucking scared Hulk Hogan. Still, Andre had a likeable personality, and everyone just about loved Andre. It was considered an honor to drink a beer with Andre, and even the fans adored this mammoth creature as a face. Still, he was just as capable of any man to cripple his opponent, and put him in the hospital bed.
So yes, even though Mick may have had a likeable personality, he too, just like the men you mentioned, is better placed in the category of the monster.
Just wait right there, KB
. Im just getting started.
While these men have indeed gotten many major matches, nearly every one if not all of them have ended in a loss for them. Mick Foley is no exception to this rule, with the only difference being his losses came at a higher level.
What you seemingly forget, KB, is that, in correlation to having more prestigious losses, Mick
also had more prestigious wins. To build himself up to that superstar level, it was necessary to feed him wins against top opponents, and make him look extremely credible. While the men youve mentioned may have beaten some names, none of them come even close to matching the resume of Mick Foley. Has One Man Gang ever beaten The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, and Triple H? How about Gene Snitsky?
I thought so.
Looking at your list, I see the following:
Go on
.
As you go on to say, this win catapults Foley into the #1 contender slot for Shawn Michaels and the WWF Title and yes indeed, Foley did face Michaels in an absolute classic at Mind Games. However, while Foley did indeed win the match, he didn't leave with the title.
So youve admitted that Mick earned his way into the Title picture by defeating the WWEs most established (arguably) babyface, and then cashing it in on a guy who defeated every single superstar that The WWF had to offer him? I mean during that run for HBK, he actually beat the following wrestlers, and beat them fairly clean
Bret Hart
Diesel
Davey Boy
Vader
Sid
Steve Austin
Goldust
Owen Hart
Yokozuna
You name it, and Shawn beat every single heel possible that there was, clean, right in the middle of the ring. But you know what name is conspicuous by his absence, KB?
Thats right, in case you never realized it, KB, there is only one heel that Shawn Michaels couldnt put down for the count. Not Diesel, not Vader, not Bret, not Sid. Mick Foley was the one guy Shawn could not put down clean. Dont you think that says quite a bit about how Mick was booked at the time, KB? That Shawn could go over clean over each and every one of those men, yet Mankind is the one guy that he couldnt put down?
Right
But because Shawn got disqualified, that makes Mankind a jobber. Exactly
In professional wrestling, a man can be losing one day and can be wrestling for a championship the next. It isn't what you did the previous day, but what you do today that matters most. King Kong Bundy for example main evented Wrestlemania 2, but never followed up on it, resulting in him facing little people in just a year.
Sigh
. KB, youre
really stretching with these examples youre citing here. Youre really going to compare KKB with Mankind. Hows about we make this comparison
.
KKB was a fat piece of shit that couldnt work his way out of the paper bag, and Mick was a guy that cut terrific promos, put on great matches, and provided something different for the fans to witness. Do you see the difference between these men?
My point to this is simple: when a wrestler is given his first shot at glory, the match that matters the most is his next one. At the next PPV, Mankind wasn't wrestling for the WWF title, but he was indeed main eventing the show. The match was Buried Alive, and while Foley did indeed win the match, the feud and the night would belong to the Phenom, as his hand would come up from the dirt, signifying that despite Mankind's efforts, Taker wasn't gone yet, and while it did indeed take time, it was the Undertaker that defeated Foley at Survivor Series to end this chapter of their rivalry. Even when the feud resumed in April with Undertaker defending his newly won WWF Title against Mankind, Foley lost, giving the Undertaker a 3-2 deficit in victories, but giving him the more important victory: the final one, at least for this segment of their feud.
Oh come the Fuck on KB! Youre really going to cite
that example for using The Undertaker? Do you know how many men have tried to rid themselves of The Undertaker? Yokozuna hired fifteen guys to stuff him into a casket, and Taker came back in seven months for vengeance. Randy Orton practically tried to kill him by running the backseat of a lowrider into the Smackdown set. Undertaker came back in two months, in a
fucking flaming casket no less, and beat Orton senseless in a Hell in a Cell match. Kane tried to burn the guy alive by locking him in a casket, and he came back just in time for Wrestlemania. Kane then tried years later to bury the Dead Man alive, all to no avail. Hed return just in time, once again, for Wrestlemania. Seriosuly, when were talking about The Undertaker, do you take Death seriously. The guy could have AIDS, and probably fucking perform for another twenty years, and no one would say a thing. Point being, just about everyone has fallen to The Undertaker. You cant base a jobbers resume off of that.
Much like Tommy Dreamer in his greatest and most well known storyline, his epic feud with Raven, Dreamer lost the majority of the beginning of the feud. Actually in Dreamer's case he lost all of the beginning of the feud. However, at the end of the day, as it always does in the world of professional wrestling, good triumphed over evil, making Dreamer the ultimate winner of the feud, and therefore certainly not a jobber. During this feud he was elevated up to the highest level he could reach. On the same night that he defeated Raven, Jerry Lawler appeared, representing the ultimate evil to ECW: a corporation. Dreamer, now a hero, was the natural choice to defend the honor of ECW against this evil, whom he defeated at the following Pay Per View.
Ah, you make it seem all so romantic, KB, you really do. I mean the passion of the moment, the importance of it. I do love how you gloss over one little fact in regards to this particular match. Namely, that it was Ravens last night in ECW. What the fuck did you expect Paul to do, have the guy who was defecting go over his guy? What type of fucking sense does that make, KB? I mean, really, what did you expect for them to do. Its only proper etiquette for Raven to job to whoever the promoter chooses. And while Dreamer was a jobber, the boys all respected the man. Still, I argue that ECW would have kept the Tommy cant beat Raven angle going for as long as they could, because people related to that need to drive away your demons. And in a way, they did keep it going as long as they could have expected. Raven was leaving, so it made absolutely zero sense for Raven to actually go over Tommy, especially when Raven has one foot out of the door.
What do we see from this? We see that while Dreamer did indeed lose many a match, he won the most important one: the final one, that won him the feud. Even Joey Styles on the following episode of Hardcore TV said that the feud was over. With Dreamer winning the last match, he won the feud, and while his record was certainly bad, he had won the war, which is something a jobber simply does not do.
Unless, you know, his competition is leaving for another promotion. Then, backstage etiquette kicks in, and the departed does the job for his intended man.
Foley may have won battles against the Undertaker and even been undefeated at one point, but winning early on certainly does not mean that he is victorious in the end.
Again, I love how much you simplify all that feud did for The Undertaker. Without Mankind, The Undertaker wouldnt have been forced to face his inner dark side. Consider this analogy here, and let me know if it works
. The Undertaker, in a way, was always Harvey Dent. He was the conscious of the WWE, and the man that did away with evil doers quicker than you can say Tombstone Piledriver. Meanwhile, well cast Mankind in the role of The Joker. He was a maniacal anti social man who luxuriously bathed in the agony of his opponents. Mankind actually got more of a victory, as he was the first man to bring The WWEs white knight down to his level, and prove that even the conscious of the WWE can be brought down. Sure, Mankind may have seemed like he didnt win the war, but he got more out of The Undertaker than any man not named Kane has. He was the first man to set in motion the sadistic and dark Undertaker we have on display now. Mankind corrupted The Undertaker. And it wasnt even that hard.
Yes indeed Foley did win this match and it was one of my favorite Summerslam moments. Yet at the end of the day, it was merely that: a moment. Here we return to the definition of a jobber: a man that puts others over. Following this feud, HHH was elevated into a singles push where he became the European Champion and ultimately the leader of Degeneration X. As that cage match happened, Mick Foley was one half of the WWF Tag Team Champions. Following his feud with HHH, Mick Foley was once again placed in a tag team with Terry Funk, where he did indeed regain the tag team titles, for one night. The following night, the new DX, led by none other than HHH annihilated the team. Foley is physically destroyed, while HHH holds a championship. Notice that HHH was elevated, while Foley was in the same place with nothing new to show for it.
Oh, dont give me that, KB. You and I both know that Triple H was going to reach stardom one way or another. Hell, if t wasnt for the MSG Incident, he wouldve been destined to win the 1996 King of the Ring. Now, Im not too much of a genius, but it doesnt take much to realize that there was no possible way that Mankind was going to make The Undertaker
and Triple H look like stars on one fucking pay per view. Perhaps if he had, Id award him the title of the greatest jobber of all time.
Seriously, though, Trips was going to be a star regardless of Mankind. All Mick had to do was just give him a good match, a match in which Triple H took the ass kicking of a lifetime. And again, how exactly is it putting a guy over you when youve claimed the victory? By your Undertaker logic, Mankind got the best of him in that portion of the feud, and therefore went over. Right, KB?
Ah yes the Out of Body Experience match. This match did indeed give Foley his third world title, yet the reign was a single day. This puts him in a four way tie for the 88th longest title reign of the 92 title reigns since the belt's inception. The reign before his lasted 55 days and the one following his lasted 22 days. Foley, while a champion, won following HHH's attack on Austin, meaning that it was only a fluke win, as Foley yet again appears to win on sheer luck, such as a quick pin by the Brooklyn Brawler or a rollup by Barry Horowitz. While such moments are indeed surprising and exciting, they are ultimately short lived forms of glory, with the very next match being more disappointment for the jobber.
Wow
. That is a horrendous comparison on your part, KB. Its not as if Mick was sitting there at ringside watching Steve and Trips pound the crap out of one another. No, he did quite a bit of damage to both men. You and I both know it. Sure, it was a shock, and maybe it wouldnt have happened if Steve didnt refuse to job to Trips (allegedly). But let me put this out there, KB
This was the last match between Steve and Mick, right? This was the last match they would ever have, no? Well, by your fucking Undertaker logic, wouldnt that mean that Mankind went over the top superstar of The Attitude Era?
Precisely
. And not only that, but if I really wanted to get literal with it, Mankind always had the upper hand on Steve. Read: Dude may have lost to Steve, but Mankind never did. Mankind beat him at the 1998 Survivor Series, and also beat him that night. So if we really look at it, Mankind pretty much has Steves number.
God
Maybe they handed The Attitude Era over to the wrong guy.
I cant believe how quick you are to throw out this victory. But you discuss it later, so well get into it. Seems like you need a little history on your Rock-Mankind feuds.
Paul Heyman over Jeff Hardy.
Earl Hebner over HHH.
Eugene over Kurt Angle.
All of these victories have occurred. Using your logic, since they occurred in the first meetings between these people, this is the patter we should always expect. A single win does not domination make my friend.
Well perhaps, but it does when, after multiple attempts, the wrestler
still cant manage a conclusive victory over his opponent. And this is the case between Rock and Mankind
. Try as he might, Rock could never grab the win over Mankind. And believe me, he had
many chances. Dont believe me? Why, lets analyze it.
The exact opposite is true as well. Mankind has never beaten the Rock clean. Be it by using an assist from Steve Austin or heavy machinery, the Rock has never been cleanly pinned by Mankind. Technically, a forklift won the WWF title on Halftime Heat.
Ok, KB
. Lets really take a look at the order of events in matches between The Rock and Mick Foley
Survivor Series 1998- The Rock beats Mankind, via a screw job set up by The McMahons.
Rock Bottom 1998- Mankind
cleanly beats The Rock, by applying The Mandible Claw to him, right in the middle of the ring. It takes quick thinking by Vince to say that Rocky never tapped out, and thus was able to keep his belt.
Raw is War- Say what you want about Stone Cold, but he was only placing the match back into its correct order of events. Dont believe me?
Then do you mean to tell me, KB, that you did not witness The Rock placed in the Mandible Claw by Mankind? It took interference from Ken Shamrock to break the hold, and give The Rock a prayer of holding on to the belt. After that, Austin came out, and only returned the match to its prior events. Mankind had Rocky beat in the middle of the ring, before Ken Shamrock broke up the hold.
Oh, and lets not forget
No Disqualification match
. Perfectly legal.
Eh?
Royal Rumble 1999- Rock wins via video cassette player
Halftime Heat- Mick wins in an empty arena match. Perfectly legal.
St. Valentines Day Massacre 1999- Double knockout
Raw- Rock and Corporation screw Mankind
Yes indeed Dreamer jobbed often to Raven. However, the part that you're leaving out is the most important of the story: the epilogue. Yes indeed, Dreamer did lose often to Raven and no, there was no reason for anyone to assume that he would defeat Johnny Polo. However, AFTER he did beat him, let's take a look at what happened to Dreamer's career.
The Epilogue? Why, the guy continued to job! Its not as if he found some remedy to keep him from jobbing. Again, can you name me
one important win that came to Tommy after that match?
To begin with, this is Tommy Dreamer. A man that by Paul Heyman, the creator of the character, was a normal man pushed to extreme measures. Following his defeat of Raven in 1997, Dreamer immediately was put into perhaps a more important feud with Jerry Lawler. This feud wasn't about titles or championships, but about the ECW life. As you know, ECW was the counter culture show. Dreamer, having lost probably 100 times to Raven, was the undisputed choice to take up the mantle of ECW and fight the evil invader from the huge company that wanted to end ECW.
Ok, KB
. Lets just consider all of the names in ECW that could have potentially taken part in this feud
RVD- Sided with The King
Sabu-Same
Taz- Broiled in a feud with Sabu
Shane Douglas- Right
. Hes going to get involved with anything the WWE does
Terry Funk- Missed this go around. Dont worry, he and the Dreamer would get their chance soon
. By jobbing to Mick Foley and Edge
Raven- Gone
Dudleys- I think they were feuding with Spike or some shit
Sandman- Going after ECW Title
You see where Im getting at here? Sure, Dreamer embodied all of the qualities of ECW. But its not like he did much to earn it. You know why ECW fans liked Tommy? Because they felt just like him. They were always being pushed around by the big boys, and were always doing jobs of some sort to the higher echelon members of society. Tommy got the fans reaction
because he lost so much, and that related to that sense of always being a loser. That is why Tommy got the nod for this feud. He fit the bill perfectly
And underdog no one expected to come out on top, against the same big wigs that stuck up their nose at the very thought of Tommy, and of ECW.
Let's change the scene for a bit shall we? InVasion 2001. The enemies have invaded the WWF and the WWF must send out an army to protect its borders against evil. Based on win/loss records, the most likely choices would have been the Brooklyn Brawler, Barry Horowitz, Glenn Ruth, Iron Mike Sharpe and Reno Riggins. Their records would have been comparable to Tommy Dreamer's, and since a man with Dreamer's record is fighting off the evil invader, it's these five to take on WCW and ECW in the biggest storyline of all time, correct?
Well, they actually did worse to Tommy
. Did you see him get any air time on TV? Did you see him wrestler any significant matches for the Alliance? And you know why? Because the WWE needed to make The Alliance look strong. And the last thing they needed was a guy who constantly jobbed doing the bill once more
This is simply incorrect. You remember it. Dreamer remembers it. The ECW faithful remember it. And most importantly, Vince McMahon remembers it. How do I know that Vince remembers it? That is simple: the entire basis of Tommy Dreamer's character in the WWE was built around having one more moment in the sun and being able to wear the thing that he (kayfabe-wise) craved most: the ECW World Heavyweight Championship.
Difference of opinion here. Tommys character is based upon keeping the ECW spirit alive, and of keeping hope to the die hard ECW fans that their man, who is always so used to jobbing, would finally get his big break, and would wind up doing well for himself. And that really didnt even start until three months ago, KB.
As for the reign, I remember the victory
But its not even the best ECW Title win, man. That distinction belongs to Terry Funks victory over Raven at Barely Legal, followed by Tazs return to ECW to beat Mike Awesome, and keep the ECW Title from WCW. Those moments struck more of a chord for me, honestly. Tommys moment was great, but it was immediately squashed by Justin Credible. Itd be like if Jeff Hardy won the World Heavyweight Title, and then
. Oh, I dont know
. CM Punk
. Eh, lets see
. Oh yeah, cashed in MITB, and won the belt from Jeff. Sure the title win becomes a memory, but the real thing that sticks in our mind is that CM Punk just cashed in MITB, and won the title. Now, do that, and take out the repeated rematches to show Jeff Hardy is a viable contender for the belt he just lost.
If the scenario were to ever happen, itd be the exact replica of what happened to Tommy Dreamers reign as ECW Heavyweight Champion.
Tommy was certainly capable of hanging with most wrestlers on the roster from a technical and certainly a brawling standpoint, but he chose to chase the ECW Title instead.
Dont make me laugh. Tommys only talent he excels at are two things.
A. Getting his opponent to look good.
B. Receiving appreciation for making said opponent look good.
You really mean to tell me Tommy has the skill of Triple H, or The Undertaker? What about Jack Swagger, even?
Now, how can you build a storyline about him reliving a moment if that moment is never remembered? For the most part, title lengths don't matter. Be they a year or a minute, that wrestler is forever known as a former champion, as Tommy was.
I find this so funny, KB. So we should hold it against Mick Foley that he held the belt for a short amount of time, but we shouldnt care that Tommy had a reign that was a fraction of Micks shortest reign.
Youre
really contradicting yourself on that one, KB.
Kane and Diesel are both one time WWF Champions. Diesel held the belt 358 days, Kane held it about 24 hours. Both men are still remembered as champions though, with Kane's reign being FAR more infamous for being so short. Of all the ECW Title reigns, Dreamer's is among the most famous for being so short.
Except while Diesel is regarded as a main eventer, most people consider Kane a jobber to the stars. Hmm
Dreamer did indeed keep the fans on his side and they were rewarded for their patience. That title reign is among the most famous in ECW history. That is their reward. Tell me, what reign of Foley's is more famous? Jobbers don't achieve such fame. Dreamer was no jobber in ECW.
What reign meant more, KB? Id say this one meant a pretty damn good much
[youtube]r1B3-WkGUfg[/youtube]
Not only was this a beautiful moment, much like Dreamers, but it also inspired half a million fans to switch from Nitro to Raw, after Tony Schiavonne aired live that Mick was going to win the belt, and said something deprecating of the guy. Not only did he have an emotional crowd, but he also proved he was a draw. And honestly, KB, what jobber is a draw?
In wrestling, winning matches means little. You can lose all kinds of matches and be right back in the main event with a single win. Look at Dreamer if you dont believe me. He never won a single match against Raven, yet he was made a star by the fans. Yes, the fans had a big role in it, but as Ive said, he went on to defend the honor of ECW after one win. Now would a jobber do that? I dont think so.
Already covered that.
Completely and utterly incorrect. When you look back in company history, there are usually a select group of about 5-10 jobbers that are more well known than others. Jobbers are a dime a dozen, yet the same are consistently performing. If they had no backing from the company, why are they used over and over again?
Now youre being facetious
Foley did indeed have three distinct gimmicks, but the most famous is Cactus Jack. It was that gimmick that got him noticed in Japan, WCW and ECW. That was his own creation. The character was based on being incredibly violent, which was a Foley idea. It was Foley's ideas that got him in the door and got him over with the fans.
Nice try, but while the smarks will claim to the High Heavens they love Cactus, most wrestling fans know Mick Foley as Mankind. Its his most famous gimmick in the states, and his most famous gimmick in an American promotion
As for Dreamer, who do you think gave him that gimmick and that story? It was one Paul Heyman that did. It was Heyman who came up with the everyday man character. Before that, Dreamer wore green suspenders. Now I don't know what you do on your weekends, but I for one certainly don't wear green suspenders. Dreamer was supposed to be a man that drove himself to great lengths to reach his goals, but at the end of the day he was still just a man. Yes, he did indeed get over with the fans sans gimmick, but it was Heyman that intentionally gave him no gimmick. I'll call this one a tie though, as while both men got over on their own merit, the booking that was given to them was indeed beneficial.
The booking was beneficial? The reason people related to Dreamer was because of the damn losses. And his ability to display his passion, in spite of these setbacks, was completely Tommys work, as much so as Paul.
Like I said, I'll call this one a tossup.
Mark Calaway. Now if there has ever been a company man for Vince, this was it. He more or less threatened SHawn's life by saying you job or you get hurt. He is considered the conscience of the locker room and that's a well known fact. It was him that was second to Vince on that night. Now I highly doubt that you can claim that simply not getting there as fast would make him more of a company guy.
You ever find it funny that The Undertaker stood up for Bret, yet also worked for Vince for another fucking twelve years without saying a damn word? Consider it an isolated incident on Marks part. Besides, Mark didnt seem to mind too much when he was working with Shawn for the WWE Title two months later. Taker has had one complaint, and has otherwise towed the company line. Mick has had multiple incidents of lashing out at his former bookers. He did it to Eric, Paul, and Vince. And you can bet your Ass hell do it to Dixie and Jeff when hes done with TNA. Its just what Mick does.
The Hardcore Diaries offers little difference either. Yes, Foley wrote that book. However, Vince McMahon was the man that allowed it to be advertised on his television show. If Vince is a smart businessman and I'm sure he is, then he would know what was in that book. Apparently the words were deemed fair by VInce to be advertised on his television shows, so how anti-company could they have been? Also, the book is about his year with the company. By doing this, he was making the company money by allowing another legend to be on the card. How is helping the company make money when he wasn't required to do so not being a company man? The book also brought attention to the company, and we all know Vince's motto on publicity: any kind of it is good.[/QUOTE
Why did Vince authorize that book? Well, tow reasons. First, how bad would it look on Vinces part if a best selling author was turned down because he didnt like what he said? It would totally crush Vinces credibility. Second, it was going to rake in cash. And thats exactly what it did.
How does leaving the broadcast booth mean anything? Foley honored his contract and decided to not renew it. As Chris Rock said in one of his stand up shows: "When you leave a restaurant, they don't owe you a steak." FOley honored his deal and left. He did everything that he said he would and left. How is that not being a good man? He owes the company nothing and that's all there is to it.
Well yeah, but he owes it to Vince, who made him a best selling author and a three time World Champion, to at least not go to the fucking dirt sheets about his problems, and put it out for the entire world to see. Has Mark ever done that? Has any company man?
Again, when Foley left the company, why should he be required to speak highly of it? They ahve no official relationship, so why should he have to be all smiley and happy, pretending he loved something if he didn't? (not saying he didn't, but just hypothetical). That makes no sense at all.
Well yes, but usually, in the wrestling world, those that bitch and complain are the ones that are regarded as company men. Its part of a Code not to speak to ill of bookers, as it may just portray you in a bad light. And Mick has done it three fucking times. Which leads me to another point.
Tommy, unlike Mick, is not a mark for his own name.
Mick even put it best in his anti ECW promo one Monday Night Raw
The only difference between he and Tommy Dreamer is that Micks a ****e, and Tommys not. Where as Mick always has to make the subject about himself, in his mind, Tommy does no such thing
I distinctly remember hearing on one of those WWE roundtables, Mick talking about gimmicks
Mick Foley said:
The worst gimmick of all time? Uh
Mantaur. And it was so bad because it happened during a time I was trying to get into the WWE
Seriously, watch an interview, and take a look at how long it takes for Mick to say something to rep himself, and place himself at the focal point. They were talking about bad gimmicks, and Mick went from discussing Mantaur to talking about a prank played by Shane Douglas on him faster than you can say the name prostitute. A jobber never prostitutes his own name
He lets his own craft speak for itself. And that is exactly what Tommy has done since he began wrestling.
This is much briefer. Tommy Dreamer was not a jobber in the original ECW for reasons already listed. Now, in WWE, yes he is a jobber. His ECW Title reign was little more than a feel good 7 weeks and I loved every minute of it. However, making Christian look good a few times can hardly be compared to making HHH, Undertaker, Austin and Rock look good for years. Dreamer was a big fish in a small pond, while Foley was a big fish in the ocean. In that case, I'd rather be in the salt water. Foley is a jobber in the WWE, while Dreamer was the star of an indy company. That sounds one sided to me.
A star? The guy was always passed on to the next guy that needed a push. If it wasnt Raven, it was Shane Douglas. If not Shane, Justin Credible. If not Justin,. Then it was fucking Rhino. And Tommy never bitched the whole way. He simply took it like a man, and made these men look like gold. And he was rewarded with the fans adoration.
That is the true key of the Worlds Greatest Jobber.
