**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

[Marv95]

Isn't turning him heel sort of the cowards way out? Instead of doing the boring, predictable, generic, overdone "TURN HIM TEH HEELZ" why not just evolve the character as a babyface?

You mean as an "edgier" character? Because if so to an extent it was already done in 2006 and he was still booed. As a top babyface you do NOT want a split reaction or worse no matter what anyone says. And even if they made him less dominant I feel the fans are so sick of him and what he represents that it wouldn't matter.

But I agree that Sunday could end the heel turn debate. If he doesn't do it Sunday he's never turning. There's no perfect time and place to do it except at SS 2011.

 

[Slyfox696]

As a top babyface you do NOT want a split reaction or worse no matter what anyone says.

Why? It's a simple question, but one I bet you cannot answer well. Why should the WWE care if Cena gets booed? Why is having your top babyface getting booed a bad thing?

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter if people cheer or boo, as long as they're paying to watch him.

 

[Scrambles]

[QUOTE="The Living Legend" Johnny Gunnz;3796842]How confused do you think the younger fans were when Cena cut his rap promo on the Rock a couple weeks ago?[/QUOTE]
If they were, it was only because they had never seen Cena act like that before.

If he did turn he'd get the same kind of reaction a beloved face usually does when he turns into a complete asshole. A few weeks of "Why, Cena, WHY?!" which transitions into "Well, then fuck you, Cena!"

Why? It's a simple question, but one I bet you cannot answer well. Why should the WWE care if Cena gets booed? Why is having your top babyface getting booed a bad thing?

The same reason why you want most of your audience to like the main character of your film/tv show/comic/video game. If the main character is poorly received it sheds a bad light on the rest of the program.

 

[Slyfox696]

The same reason why you want most of your audience to like the main character of your film/tv show/comic/video game. If the main character is poorly received it sheds a bad light on the rest of the program.

Pro wrestling is not film, TV, comic or video game. Pro wrestling is completely unique and cannot be judged by other entertainment mediums. In fact, two entertainment mediums it can be most closely judged is MMA and boxing, and since Brock Lesnar and Floyd Mayweather were heavily disliked and still the top PPV draws, your argument is proven false in two different ways.

 

[Scrambles]

Pro wrestling is not film, TV, comic or video game. Pro wrestling is completely unique and cannot be judged by other entertainment mediums.

Of course pro wrestling is comparable to stuff like TV shows and comics. McMahon once said to the audience that they had been watching a glorified action show for the last two decades. Wrestling is even called (granted, disparagingly) "Superhero comics for the illiterate". I mean, come on. The colorful attire, expository dialogue, and universally hated villains are only a few comparisons to other cheesy forms of entertainment.

In fact, two entertainment mediums it can be most closely judged is MMA and boxing, and since Brock Lesnar and Floyd Mayweather were heavily disliked and still the top PPV draws

There's a huge problem with your comparison. To put it in a wrestling context: Cena is specifically designed to be liked, while Mayweather and Lesnar are dominant heels like HHH during the Reign of Terror.

and even then, HHH got the bad kind of hate, where people just got tired of his act and tuned out of WWE programming entirely. I bring that up because it's Cena's problem too.

 

[Slyfox696]

Of course pro wrestling is comparable to stuff like TV shows and comics.

Really? Do those other entertainment mediums make money off live attendance? Do they hold a supershow every month on pay TV? Are their interactions with their fellow actors done on live TV in front of tens of thousands of people in the audience?

No? Then it's not comparable.

There's a huge problem with your comparison. To put it in a wrestling context: Cena is specifically designed to be liked, while Mayweather and Lesnar are dominant heels like HHH during the Reign of Terror.

No, the comparison is spot on. Just because you incorrectly assume the WWE gives a damn whether or not Cena gets cheered, doesn't make my comparison less appropriate.

The WWE doesn't care if Cena gets cheered or booed. If the WWE cared, they wouldn't put him in a program with the Rock, culminating in a match in Rock's hometown. They wouldn't have put Cena in a program with Punk, with a title match on PPV in Punk's hometown. The WWE doesn't care if Cena gets booed or not, they only care about putting Cena in programs that draw money.

and even then, HHH got the bad kind of hate, where people just got tired of his act and tuned out of WWE programming entirely. I bring that up because it's Cena's problem too.

If Cena's "problem" is that he makes up nearly 20% of the WWE's total revenue just by himself, then I daresay the WWE ought to have more wrestlers with that kind of a problem.

 

[Scrambles]

Really? Do those other entertainment mediums make money off live attendance? Do they hold a supershow every month on pay TV? Are their interactions with their fellow actors done on live TV in front of tens of thousands of people in the audience?

No? Then it's not comparable.

I'm comparing them from a creative standpoint. Why you're bringing up presentation, I have no idea, since it has no bearing on Cena's relationship to the crowd. His booking, which is a creative matter, does.

No, the comparison is spot on. Just because you incorrectly assume the WWE gives a damn whether or not Cena gets cheered, doesn't make my comparison less appropriate.

The WWE doesn't care if Cena gets cheered or booed. If the WWE cared, they wouldn't put him in a program with the Rock, culminating in a match in Rock's hometown. They wouldn't have put Cena in a program with Punk, with a title match on PPV in Punk's hometown. The WWE doesn't care if Cena gets booed or not, they only care about putting Cena in programs that draw money.

No, the comparison is still off. Lesnar and Mayweather are booked specifically to draw ire. Cena isn't.

They put Cena in those programs because he's their strongest draw by default. And as far as Punk goes, because they wanted to get Punk over as the anti-establishment rebel. Who else to put him over but the ultimate company man, John Cena? Just because they took advantage of his standing with the crowd doesn't mean they think its ideal.

They don't care that Cena gets booed?

Stephanie McMahon once said that they wanted the Rock/Cena feud to have a Team Jacob/Team Edward dynamic. I don't know if you know anything about that stuff, but here's the thing: if they want that kind of feel, a large amount of the crowd has to be on Cena's side. And guess what? Since February, he's actually been getting more people on his side.

If Cena's "problem" is that he makes up nearly 20% of the WWE's total revenue just by himself, then I daresay the WWE ought to have more wrestlers with that kind of a problem.

Where'd you get those numbers?

If you don't believe that they wanted Cena's crowd reception to improve for the Rock match, all you have to do is look at the booking. NOBODY has been booked as able to make the Rock trip over himself while talking and forcing him to write notes on his arm. Throughout most of his career Rock was booked as virtually untouchable in a verbal joust. Even HHH, with all his backstage clout, stepped aside when Rock opened his mouth.

Cena's been booked as edgier, more opinionated, more thoughtful, everything. And he's gotten a little more of a following over the past month or so. Now, where they go with it from here is anyone's guess. But the point is, they do care about how he's received. If they didn't, they'd be ******ed because pro wrestling is 90% audience interaction.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm comparing them from a creative standpoint.

I'm comparing them from a product standpoint. The WWE doesn't sell creative, it sells a product. The Big Bang Theory doesn't sell a script, they sell a product.

Why you're bringing up presentation, I have no idea, since it has no bearing on Cena's relationship to the crowd. His booking, which is a creative matter, does.

Because presentation is a major part of what the WWE is about. They sell a product, and the presentation of the show is very much a part of that product. And the WWE's product is completely different from that of a TV show or a comic book.

No, the comparison is still off. Lesnar and Mayweather are booked specifically to draw ire. Cena isn't.

Well sure Cena is. Have you actually watched the WWE in the last several years? John Cena is written to elicit a reaction, one type from one demographic, and another from everyone else.

But that doesn't even matter, as that is not the point. The point is that people pay money to watch John Cena. THAT is the only thing that matters to the WWE. When the WWE acknowledges on the air that people boo him, even making storylines out of it, that's proof the WWE doesn't care how people react to Cena, as long as they do.

They put Cena in those programs because he's their strongest draw by default. And as far as Punk goes, because they wanted to get Punk over as the anti-establishment rebel. Who else to put him over but the ultimate company man, John Cena? Just because they took advantage of his standing with the crowd doesn't mean they think its ideal.

Well sure they do. They have a guy who can literally feud with anyone on the roster. Randy Orton and CM Punk cannot have a feud, using their current characters. Bryan and Punk couldn't have a feud with both of them as faces.

Cena can feud with ANYONE on the roster with his current character. And he can draw money with just about anyone on the roster. John Cena is the ideal employee.

They don't care that Cena gets booed?

No, they don't. If they did, they wouldn't keep putting him in situations they know he'll get booed in.

Stephanie McMahon once said that they wanted the Rock/Cena feud to have a Team Jacob/Team Edward dynamic. I don't know if you know anything about that stuff, but here's the thing: if they want that kind of feel, a large amount of the crowd has to be on Cena's side. And guess what? Since February, he's actually been getting more people on his side.

Yes, because he's proven himself to be better on live promos than Rock has. Cena has been getting people on his side because he's outperformed The Rock, considered by many the greatest promo cutter ever.

Cena is getting cheered because people are finally coming around to what I've known for a long time...John Cena is one of the greatest workers in wrestling history.

Where'd you get those numbers?

ESPN’s financial expert Michele Steele tweeted on Tuesday that John Cena was worth $106 million in retail value to WWE in 2011.

http://www.sescoops.com/wrestling-news/wwe/john-cenas-value-to-wwe-jrs-status-for-royal-rumble-wm28/

WWE Revenue: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=207532

If you don't believe that they wanted Cena's crowd reception to improve for the Rock match, all you have to do is look at the booking. NOBODY has been booked as able to make the Rock trip over himself while talking and forcing him to write notes on his arm.

I think it's funny people still think the WWE forced the Rock to do that. Even more amusing, they refuse to give Cena credit for completely owning the Rock.

Throughout most of his career Rock was booked as virtually untouchable in a verbal joust. Even HHH, with all his backstage clout, stepped aside when Rock opened his mouth.

Uhh, that's not really true. The Rock was so talented, he presented his material so well he just outshined the other performers. The other performers weren't booked to suck, Rock was just really good at performing his material.

But now Rock is competing against Cena, and Cena is nearly as good at presenting his planned material. But Cena has consistently shown himself to be BETTER at ad-libbing material, even leaving Rock flustered on occasion. Remember how Orton said nearly a year ago that Cena was better than Rock at creating an interview on the fly? He's been proven correct on a couple of occasions.

What you need to understand is twofold. First, the WWE doesn't care whether wrestlers get cheered or booed, as long as they make money. Second, the WWE hasn't booked Rock or Cena to look strong in this feud, they've basically been given nearly free reign to control their characters, and Cena has come out, on numerous occasions, looking much better. That says nothing about Rock, because everyone already knows he is great, but now that Cena has proven at least Rock's equal, other fans are starting to come around to appreciating Cena's greatness.

 

[Scrambles]

I'm comparing them from a product standpoint. The WWE doesn't sell creative, it sells a product. The Big Bang Theory doesn't sell a script, they sell a product.

And in both cases, the product being sold is scripted, episodic, televised entertainment.

Because presentation is a major part of what the WWE is about. They sell a product, and the presentation of the show is very much a part of that product.

Yes, presentation is a major part of the wrestling product. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Cena's crowd reception and its effect on the product as a whole.

Well sure Cena is. Have you actually watched the WWE in the last several years? John Cena is written to elicit a reaction, one type from one demographic, and another from everyone else.

But that doesn't even matter, as that is not the point. The point is that people pay money to watch John Cena. THAT is the only thing that matters to the WWE. When the WWE acknowledges on the air that people boo him, even making storylines out of it, that's proof the WWE doesn't care how people react to Cena, as long as they do.

Not really. They've tried time and again to endear him to the whole crowd rather than endure the 20-30% that boos. Just because they've become more accepting of it doesn't mean its their ideal.

Well sure they do. They have a guy who can literally feud with anyone on the roster. Randy Orton and CM Punk cannot have a feud, using their current characters. Bryan and Punk couldn't have a feud with both of them as faces.

Cena can feud with ANYONE on the roster with his current character. And he can draw money with just about anyone on the roster. John Cena is the ideal employee.

mmmmmm, no. Cena/Punk worked because of their respective positions in the company more than anything else. Throughout the feud Cena was written as supportive of Punk and even tried to pull him back into the company with his "backstage power".

No, they don't. If they did, they wouldn't keep putting him in situations they know he'll get booed in.

Trust me, they do. for all the talk of Cena being put into situations where he'd be booed, there are dozens he's put in where he's supposed to get sympathy.

The Nexus storyline, his clashes with authority figures like Vince McMahon, the recurring theme of heel wrestlers attacking his helpless father, his kayfabe friendship with Zack Ryder (a very popular mid-card face)...need I go on? If they REALLY wanted him to get mixed reactions they wouldn't have put him into those kinds of stories, because that's counterintuitive to making him a purely neutral character.

But now Rock is competing against Cena, and Cena is nearly as good at presenting his planned material. But Cena has consistently shown himself to be BETTER at ad-libbing material, even leaving Rock flustered on occasion. Remember how Orton said nearly a year ago that Cena was better than Rock at creating an interview on the fly? He's been proven correct on a couple of occasions.

Is that so? Then how come throughout most of last year Cena was looking like Rock's underling?

He constantly talked about how much he respected The Rock (when he now says that he doesn't), went on a Rise Above Hate campaign (ironic, because his comments to the media spurred Rock to confront him in the first place), and even cut a promo whining about his lot in life in front of an Australian crowd (which was universally reviled).

So after months of being booked like Rock's underling (to the point where WWE acknowledged it here, meaning WWE intended it that way) Cena just suddenly decided to cut the nonsense and finally speak from the heart, endearing himself to the WWE Universe with his raw talent alone?

Call me skeptical.

 

[Slyfox696]

And in both cases, the product being sold is scripted, episodic, televised entertainment.

And as I said before...

Do those other entertainment mediums make money off live attendance? Do they hold a supershow every month on pay TV? Are their interactions with their fellow actors done on live TV in front of tens of thousands of people in the audience?

They are not the same thing. Pro wrestling and Pawn Stars are as much alike as basketball and Nascar racing. They are completely different.

Yes, presentation is a major part of the wrestling product. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Cena's crowd reception and its effect on the product as a whole.

Well sure it does.

Not really. They've tried time and again to endear him to the whole crowd rather than endure the 20-30% that boos. Just because they've become more accepting of it doesn't mean its their ideal.

If the WWE cared about people cheering Cena, they would not continue to book him in a way they know fans will boo him. It's not like the WWE is powerless to change the direction of his character. They choose not to, because they like where he's at.

mmmmmm, no. Cena/Punk worked because of their respective positions in the company more than anything else.

No, Cena vs. Punk worked for many of the same reasons Cena vs. Rock is working. It was the 15-25 male demographic (Punk) vs. all other demographics (Cena).

Throughout the feud Cena was written as supportive of Punk and even tried to pull him back into the company with his "backstage power".

So? What does that have to do with the fact the WWE could legitimately book a Cena vs. Punk match, and know it would get off the chart heat because of the character Cena plays?

I think you missed my point.

Trust me, they do.

Oh well, trust YOU. In that case, I completely surrender my argument and bow to my trust in you.

for all the talk of Cena being put into situations where he'd be booed, there are dozens he's put in where he's supposed to get sympathy.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact the WWE does put Cena into situations time and again where he'll get booed proves they don't care if he gets booed.

The Nexus storyline, his clashes with authority figures like Vince McMahon, the recurring theme of heel wrestlers attacking his helpless father, his kayfabe friendship with Zack Ryder (a very popular mid-card face)...need I go on?

No, because you're not doing anything but presenting a red herring style fallacious argument.

The examples you are giving do not disprove my evidence of the WWE putting him in situations where he'll get booed, thus proving they don't care if he gets booed. Yes, the WWE puts him in situations where he can garner sympathy. That DOESN'T mean the WWE cares that he gets booed, merely that the WWE plays both sides of the fence with the Cena character.

Your argument is a complete red herring fallacy.

If they REALLY wanted him to get mixed reactions they wouldn't have put him into those kinds of stories, because that's counterintuitive to making him a purely neutral character.

The WWE isn't making Cena a neutral character. The WWE makes Cena a character that abides by his own set of morals and values, and writes stories with other characters and how they interact with those morals and values.

The WWE makes Cena be a good and honorable man, but they understand that many wrestling fans don't want to see a good and honorable man. Because the WWE understands this, they will occasionally knowingly put Cena into a situation where being a good and honorable man will cause him tremendous heat from those booing him.

The WWE doesn't care if he gets booed, as long as people are paying to watch.

Is that so? Then how come throughout most of last year Cena was looking like Rock's underling?

I would love to know how that is possible, considering The Rock wasn't even there for most of last year.

He constantly talked about how much he respected The Rock (when he now says that he doesn't),

No, he said he used to respect The Rock, and he used to respect the man The Rock was. He has been very clear that he respects The Rock, but does not respect Dwayne Johnson. Even cut a promo about it...you know, the one where Cena made Rock look like his bitch, where the show ended with Rock stumbling over his words.

went on a Rise Above Hate campaign

Which had nothing to do with the Rock...

So after months of being booked like Rock's underling

Cena was never booked as Rock's underling. If anything, Cena was booked as the hero of the WWE, defending its honor against the man who used his WWE created success to create a movie career.

Your understanding of wrestling isn't very good, is it?

Cena just suddenly decided to cut the nonsense and finally speak from the heart, endearing himself to the WWE Universe with his raw talent alone?

Call me skeptical.

I'll call you many different things if you'd like. You probably wouldn't like most of them though.

 

[Scrambles]

They are not the same thing. Pro wrestling and Pawn Stars are as much alike as basketball and Nascar racing. They are completely different.

Pawn Stars, he says. Bringing out the strawmen, I see.

Pro wrestling is, in McMahon's own words, scripted, episodic, action-oriented entertainment. That WWE is live and other shows of the same description are pre-recorded is of no imporance.

If the WWE cared about people cheering Cena, they would not continue to book him in a way they know fans will boo him.

They've already tried to make Cena more sympathetic to the rest of the audience. Would they bring up his Make a Wish Foundation accomplishments and the hard work he puts into the business if they didn't want the crowd to like him? Those aren't the kinds of things you do for a character whose reactions you don't care about.

And it's not true that WWE fans don't like a stand-up guy. There are other popular archetypal babyfaces on the roster, like Mysterio.

So? What does that have to do with the fact the WWE could legitimately book a Cena vs. Punk match, and know it would get off the chart heat because of the character Cena plays?

The point is that Cena/Punk was a face/face dynamic and was booked like one. By making Cena take Punk's side against the WWE brass, they gave Punk a major rub. Meaning Cena HAD to be sympathetic for the sake of story.

The examples you are giving do not disprove my evidence of the WWE putting him in situations where he'll get booed, thus proving they don't care if he gets booed. Yes, the WWE puts him in situations where he can garner sympathy. That DOESN'T mean the WWE cares that he gets booed, merely that the WWE plays both sides of the fence with the Cena character.

Total bullshit, considering the amount times where he was booked as a clear cut face VASTLY outnumber the angles where he was supposed to split the crowd.

The only times where WWE specifically books him to split the crowd is against faces and tweeners equal to or above his caliber. throughout his whole career there have only been four people like that, and two of them are Rock and Punk.

The WWE isn't making Cena a neutral character. The WWE makes Cena a character that abides by his own set of morals and values

that's like saying, "No, Pat Patterson isn't homosexual. He just prefers sexual relationships with other men."

Either way, it's not true. Cena is pretty much the standard WWE face. He just gets a less positive reaction than the others.

No, he said he used to respect The Rock, and he used to respect the man The Rock was. He has been very clear that he respects The Rock, but does not respect Dwayne Johnson. Even cut a promo about it...you know, the one where Cena made Rock look like his bitch, where the show ended with Rock stumbling over his words.

Yeah, that promo was great. I distinctly remember that great February 2012 moment.

We were talking about things that happened in 2011, remember? Stay focused.

If anything, Cena was booked as the hero of the WWE, defending its honor against the man who used his WWE created success to create a movie career.

Not really. If he was, Rock would've never posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-8ARolUybU this shoot vid, dissecting Cena's entire argument and even his gimmick.

You also must have missed that WWE.com link I posted which acknowledged Cena's kayfabe inferiority to Rock. Here it is again: http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/2011-11-21/john-cena-needs-a-reboot

And as we know, if WWE acknowledges it, it's most likely a work. Now you want me to think that Cena's turned the feud around totally on his own merit? Don't be a mark.

 

[One to Remember]

I don't recall Steamboat ever turning heel in his WWF tenure and I hear he never turned heel in his entire career. Is Cena correct and if not who else with a lengthy career never turned their back on the WWE Universe? Did anyone else pick up on Cena inaccurate boast?

 

[Slyfox696]

Pawn Stars, he says. Bringing out the strawmen, I see.

Uhh, I don't think you understand what a Strawman argument is.

Your argument is that pro wrestling is just like any other TV show. Pawn Stars is a show on television, a very popular one. I could have said Pawn Stars or Big Bang Theory or Law and Order, and the point remains the same.

The WWE is not like any of them.

Pro wrestling is, in McMahon's own words, scripted, episodic, action-oriented entertainment.

And that's all true. But it's also live, makes money by selling tickets to the show and other shows, the TV show builds for a PPV, etc.

When Burn Notice is over, then the episode's story is over. They're not trying to get you to pay money to watch a show at the end of the month. They're not trying to get you to buy a ticket for a show which is not put on TV. The WWE is completely different from other TV shows.

If you don't understand this very basic truth, then I don't have much hope for you to understand anything else related to the business.

They've already tried to make Cena more sympathetic to the rest of the audience. Would they bring up his Make a Wish Foundation accomplishments and the hard work he puts into the business if they didn't want the crowd to like him? Those aren't the kinds of things you do for a character whose reactions you don't care about.

What are you talking about? You cannot be this dense.

I don't know how to break it down any simpler for you. John Cena has a certain character. Those things you mentioned are John Cena's character. The WWE mentions those things because it furthers who John Cena is. If the fans like those things and wish to cheer Cena, great. If they despise the fact Cena is a "company man", then fine. The WWE isn't trying to make fans cheer Cena, they are constantly telling the fans they can cheer Cena if they want, or boo him if they want.

Just because they show videos and say things which further Cena's character doesn't mean they care if he gets booed. As a parallel example, I run a website. I get people who tell me all the time how much they like the website, how helpful it is, etc. And that's great, I try to make the site be the best it can be. But if someone in the community doesn't like it, and thinks it's not what my site should look like, then that's fine. I don't really care, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

It's the same thing. The WWE does what they do with Cena's character. If people like it, great, they people don't, the WWE is fine with that too.

And it's not true that WWE fans don't like a stand-up guy. There are other popular archetypal babyfaces on the roster, like Mysterio.

Mysterio is old, he was around when the people who currently boo Cena were growing up. Name me a wrestler who entered the main-event after the Attitude Era was over, and played a stand-up kind of guy the entire time.

The point is that Cena/Punk was a face/face dynamic and was booked like one.

I'm not disputing that. But you can't dispute the tremendous heat in that match was not because both were faces, but because the demographic which claims to hate Cena, falls over itself when it comes to Punk.

That's the point. And Punk actually wasn't booked as a face, he was actually booked in a heelish manner, but he was saying things that the 15-25 male demographic had been saying for years, so he got cheered for it. But that is irrelevant in the grander scope of the argument.

Total bullshit, considering the amount times where he was booked as a clear cut face VASTLY outnumber the angles where he was supposed to split the crowd.

Seriously?

You just admitted the WWE puts him in angles where he is booked to "split the crowd". How does that not prove the WWE doesn't care if he gets booed? If they didn't want him to get booed, they would NEVER book him in programs where he splits the crowd.

Why are you having so much trouble understanding such a simple concept?

The only times where WWE specifically books him to split the crowd is against faces and tweeners equal to or above his caliber. throughout his whole career there have only been four people like that, and two of them are Rock and Punk.

And HHH, HBK and RVD.

So at least five that I can think of. And three of those five have come at Wrestlemania, the biggest show of the year, where the WWE makes the most money from any show all year, and the most people purchase a PPV.

So, on the show where they get the most revenue and most people watching, they've booked Cena in programs where he will split the crowd in three of the last seven Wrestlemanias. Are you ready to admit the WWE doesn't care yet?

that's like saying, "No, Pat Patterson isn't homosexual. He just prefers sexual relationships with other men."

No, it's actually nothing like that.

Either way, it's not true. Cena is pretty much the standard WWE face. He just gets a less positive reaction than the others.

And as long as the people continue to pay the WWE to watch him, the WWE doesn't give a damn. And if people are paying to watch him, how can it be a bad thing if he gets booed?

You're not making any sense, nor any headway into disproving my original statement.

Yeah, that promo was great. I distinctly remember that great February 2012 moment.

We were talking about things that happened in 2011, remember? Stay focused.

What's amusing is I was just going to let you have this one, without pointing out how ridiculous your statement was.

But how did Cena respect the Rock "last year"? From jokes about The Tooth Fairy, to the "Bringing it Via Satellite", "Cena bitch slapping Rocky trending worldwide"...nothing about that was respectful to the Rock. And that was just from 5 minutes of YouTube videos.

Cena was constantly disrespectful to Rock last year.

Not really. If he was, Rock would've never posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-8ARolUybU this shoot vid, dissecting Cena's entire argument and even his gimmick.

Oh, so because Cena's opponent talks trash about Cena, that means that Cena wasn't booked as the company man, the hero of the WWE locker room?

Please. You're not making sense.

You also must have missed that WWE.com link I posted which acknowledged Cena's kayfabe inferiority to Rock. Here it is again: http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/2011-11-21/john-cena-needs-a-reboot

No, I saw it. I didn't read it, but I saw it. I didn't think something so stupid had to be responded to. I was just assuming you knew your argument was completely wrong, and you were throwing all the shit you could against the wall hoping something would stick.

You were serious about that?

And as we know, if WWE acknowledges it, it's most likely a work. Now you want me to think that Cena's turned the feud around totally on his own merit? Don't be a mark.

I'm a mark because I can see with my own eyes on several occasions when Cena walks to the ring getting booed, and walks out to massive cheers?

I have REALLY tried hard to be a nicer person on these forums, I really have. I told myself again the other day I need to tone things down. But you're talking like a complete idiot. There's really no other way around it. The fact you think that Cena making up nearly 20% of the WWE's revenue is a sign that his character is "bad" for business just proves how little you truly understand wrestling.

The long and short of it is this. The WWE doesn't care if Cena gets booed, as long as he makes them money. Making money is never bad for business.

Just one last thought. You're claiming the only reason Cena is getting more cheers against Rock, one of the greatest of all time (and arguably the greatest promo cutter of all time), is because the WWE has been booking him to get cheered. You're also claiming that the WWE cares that Cena gets booed. If the WWE REALLY cared that Cena got booed, and if the WWE can magically book Cena to get cheered against one of the greatest workers of all time...then why wouldn't the WWE book Cena to get cheered against everyone else? Your logic has a major gaping flaw.

The fact of the matter is that Cena is getting cheered because he's great, and the WWE doesn't care if people cheer him or not, as evident by the fact they keep putting him in situations where he is likely to be booed. It's that simple.

 

[CanYouDigIt98]

Credit: E! Wrestling News

As i was coming across the website's looking forward to tonight, i came across this little gem ..



'John Cena says that he's turned down movie roles in order to stay full-time with WWE. Cena told the Toronto Sun that he has passed on "a lot of stuff" with the goal of being WWE champion again.

"I don't want to be an actor, I want to be a WWE champion and I want to be the best that I can be," he said. "If a part comes up and I have to make a choice between that and wresting, 10 out of 10 times I stay here." '


Well , obviously film interest is going to come along when your the biggest wrestling superstar in the world . We've seen it time and time again with the big stars taking many film's up (this does not include WWE Studios Films) such as Hulk Hogan In Thunder Paradise and No Holds Barred and more cameos in other films like Rocky III as Thunderlips ... Weve also seen Triple H go into the Acting Game in 2004 In Blade Trinity and Of Cause The Rocks been Cooking in the buissness for a long time . with a long list of films .

For me though it shows Cena's Commited to the company he loves . he stars in some WWE Studios Films like many other superstars like Big Show and Now Hornswoggle . yet as the Face of WWE The know that wether he's loved or hated he rolls in the Dollors .

Like Him or not .. Cena Has This Buissness In His Blood and Work's 350 Days a a year trying to put a show on for all of us . You Have to Give Him Credit For That ...





On That Note, ENJOY WRESTLEMANIA !


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viva la razaaa

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

People who hate Cena and think Cena is being booked to be liked by the entire audience don't get it.

You see, Cena....by acting like the all american good guy......by "trying to get people to like him".....MAKES HIM A FUCKING HEEL WITH YOUR DEMOGRAPHIC.

Cena being a good guy is the equivalent of Iron Shiek saying "IRAN NUMBER 1, RUSSIA NUMBER 1, USA ACK POOO".

Cena is the anti-hero to the anti-hero generation.

If the WWE REALLY wanted Cena to be liked by everyone, he'd be more of a heel, becuase then the 15-25 year old rednecks who beat their wives would like him and so would the kids because he'd be a babyface.

If WWE wanted Cena to get 100% cheers instead of a 100% ridiculous emotional response then they would have changed him in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, or 2012, they haven't, so obviously, they realize that he's simply a heel to some and a face to others by doing the same thing. This is not a tweener, a tweener is a good guy who does ******** things. This is totally unique. It would have never worked in any other era of wrestling because the audience now is not at all homogenous. Back in the day, the entire crowd basically had the same opinions of what makes a good guy and a bad guy.

Now if you are an all american good guy, some people will hate you, others will love you. This is why Cena works. This is also why it's ******ed to compare Cena to guys like Steamboat, Hogan, Austin, or Rock. WHen your audience isn't the same, you can't compare. That'd be like saying "well more gas efficient cars weren't all the rage in the 70s". Just stupid.

Seems more and more obvious that the people that appreciate Cena are ones that understand business and those that don't are ultimately just marks being worked to hate Cena despite how much of a "smart mark" they think they are.

 

[I Heart Cena]

I don't recall Steamboat ever turning heel in his WWF tenure and I hear he never turned heel in his entire career. Is Cena correct and if not who else with a lengthy career never turned their back on the WWE Universe? Did anyone else pick up on Cena inaccurate boast?

Cena is a moron. He was heel from 2002-2003. What an idiot. No wonder he's hated so much and will get epically booed tonite.

Seems more and more obvious that the people that appreciate Cena are ones that understand business and those that don't are ultimately just marks being worked to hate Cena despite how much of a "smart mark" they think they are.

GTFO with that. The people that "appreciate" him are the one who have low standards when it comes to entertainment. Simple minds are easily amused.

Cena haters understand the business well. It doesn't mean he is entertaining.

And it wasn't Vince's intention to have so much Cena hatred. They'd eliminate it if they can. They've tried like hell. But now they accept it. Unfortunately, kids like the bright colors he wears and his corniness. So he remains as lame as always.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I donno how "top" they are but I bet he has.

The best part of the "John Cena Experience" DVD is when he's in the cafeteria at ESPN, it's not part of the show, just the documentary guys watching. Someone from ESPN sits next to him, they're eating, the guy says "ever think of doing movies?" Cena just shakes his head no and keeps eating the guy looks perplexed and says 'why not?" Cena says something like "this is what I love doing."

A huge flaw I see in the argument that "Cena would take the money" is that studies have shown (in relation to compensation for workers) that after about 50,000 dollars the amount doesn't really matter. That the workers would prefer more recognition or more vacation time instead. In other words, Cena doesn't care about the money because the difference between 5M a year or whatever he's making and 5M for a movie requiring much less work doesn't matter. He gets enough recognition and is satisfies his other more intangible needs to be a wrestler.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

GTFO with that. The people that "appreciate" him are the one who have low standards when it comes to entertainment. Simple minds are easily amused.

Cena haters understand the business well. It doesn't mean he is entertaining.

And it wasn't Vince's intention to have so much Cena hatred. They'd eliminate it if they can. They've tried like hell. But now they accept it. Unfortunately, kids like the bright colors he wears and his corniness. So he remains as lame as always.

So enlighten us on how Cena turning heel would be good for business? I don't know for a fact that you think he should turn heel, but I figure you would. You probably thought Stone Could turning heel was great for business as well.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

GTFO with that. The people that "appreciate" him are the one who have low standards when it comes to entertainment. Simple minds are easily amused.

Cena haters understand the business well. It doesn't mean he is entertaining.

And it wasn't Vince's intention to have so much Cena hatred. They'd eliminate it if they can. They've tried like hell. But now they accept it. Unfortunately, kids like the bright colors he wears and his corniness. So he remains as lame as always.

They have NOT tried like hell. Holy shit dude, if being a squeaky clean good guy gets you booed, and they keep having him do that, how in the hell is that "trying like hell?"

Cena haters do not understand the business or business in general.

Here's what happens:
Cena comes out, acts like a good guy (himself basically)
Cena haters "fuck you man, I don't like you, you rub me the wrong way, I'm smarter than your character so I'm going to buy tickets and boo you and go on the internet and write about how much I hate you and buy shirts and dedicate time to showing everyone how much I hate you"
Cena "lol dude okay"

If people hated Cena so much, they wouldn't make noise, they wouldn't make threads about it, they wouldn't buy/make shirts about it.

I legitimately HATE Jersey Shore and Real Housewives of wherever. I don't watch the show, I don't make shirts saying how much I hate the show, I don't talk to people about the show.

So either Cena haters actually do hate Cena but are too fuckin dumb to stop watching when he's on and stop talking about him or they are being worked. There really is no other option.

So which is it? Are you so dumb or do you just love to hate him?

Also "low standards of entertainment". the Attitude Era was about as low as it gets as far as 'standards of entertainment" nothing but cheap pops on boobs, blood, beer, trailer trash "he fucked my sister so I fucked his mom" type of bullshit. Can't really deny it either, I've sited several articles written by people about it. Not only that, but this is pro wrestling, not a Daniel Day-Lewis movie. If you want a sophisticated form of entertainment, go somewhere else.

People who hate Cena don't get it. They see the bright colors, the catchphrases, the "5 MOVEZ OF TEH DOOMZ" and don't really turn their brain on. Cena does a lot of things incredibly well. People who don't undertand pro wrestling or business don't pick up on it and then don't know why he's still the character he is. Instead they talk about how they hate him, but tickets to boo him, and buy/make shirts to show everyone they hate him.

I never bought or made a "I hate the twilight series" shirt.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Cena is a moron. He was heel from 2002-2003. What an idiot. No wonder he's hated so much and will get epically booed tonite.

Actually you are the moron. He said "never turn their back on the fans". Rock left, Cena hasn't left. Also, since Cena turned face, he's never turned heel. He started out as a heel, then turned face and has never turned back. To "turn your back" on someone you must first have them on your side. If you START as a heel, you aren't turning are you?

Also, yes, he will be booed tonight, and it will be epic, and it'll be another epic Cena moment. You don't get it.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Actually you are the moron. He said "never turn their back on the fans". Rock left, Cena hasn't left. Also, since Cena turned face, he's never turned heel. He started out as a heel, then turned face and has never turned back. To "turn your back" on someone you must first have them on your side. If you START as a heel, you aren't turning are you?

Also, yes, he will be booed tonight, and it will be epic, and it'll be another epic Cena moment. You don't get it.

Actually, he did start out as a face with his feud with Jericho and turned heel in October or November of 2002 I believe.

What the majority of the people who want to turn Cena heel don't factor in who is going to be the top face. Just look back at Stone Cold when he turned heel. The Rock left to do movies and HHH was still heel so your top babyface was the Undertaker. Are Punk or Orton good enough to take over as the top face if Cena turns and ratings won't drop?

 

[BreezyDaProtege]

People need to respect Cena way more...he is the only person who actually doesnt seem like a character outside of CM Punk. Who we get in the ring seems to be exactly what he is in person which in my book you have to respect. No body says anything about HBK or HHH and they were assholes backstage once upon of time. Cena is a WRESTLER not an actor and he is obviously no sell out because I'm sure he was offered roles for Top movies....which doesnt mean he was the main star in it but it shows his loyalty not to stray from what he loves most

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Actually, he did start out as a face with his feud with Jericho and turned heel in October or November of 2002 I believe.

What the majority of the people who want to turn Cena heel don't factor in who is going to be the top face. Just look back at Stone Cold when he turned heel. The Rock left to do movies and HHH was still heel so your top babyface was the Undertaker. Are Punk or Orton good enough to take over as the top face if Cena turns and ratings won't drop?

Another thing is, exactly what would happen?

Well, the people booing him now would cheer him and the people cheering him would boo him. Awesome, basically nothing changed only now it'd be cool to like Cena.

The WWE realizes that the "smart marks" aren't actually smart but are actually incredibly predictable contrarians. So why even turn him heel? Absolutely nothing would change other than an inverse crowd reaction and lower revenue.

 

[Fansince1992]

Some people prefer the active lifestyle of Travelling from Town to Town , City to City, Country to Country. Cena and the other WWE Wrestlers do this all year round.

It's a hard prediction to think wether Cena would drop WWE for an acting carrear.. Maybe he thinks he isn't that great of an Actor? Maybe he thinks he is a Wrestler/Entertanier for life?. Wouldn't an acting Carrear suit his family more? (he could spend more time with his wife and children) Perhaps he lost hope in acting when "The Marine" didn't really make it big? so many questions that only he knows the answers to.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Another problem with Cena turning heel is one of the things I never got when Austin joined the Alliance.

I remember Stone Cold saying one of the reasons he joined the Alliance was that he would fight better competition which is stupid because he'll still be fighting the same wrestlers, just on a different side.

Cena has basically feuded with everyone on the damn roster. What is going to change so much if he turns heel? Cena is in a good spot right now because he can work with faces and heels due to his crowd reaction. If he's in a feud with a Punk or an Orton, they're just going to cheer the other guy more because they appeal to the audience that hates Cena.