Is it Time to Start Calling Him The Best Ever?

[S.J. Maximus]

This thread is about a week or two overdue but I've been busy with work so I never had the time to get on here and share my thoughts.

With the announcement that Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson will be at WrestleMania 32, this marks his 6th consecutive WrestleMania appearance. If you had asked me in 2008 to name the top 5 biggest wrestlers of all time, The Rock would've been firmly in place at number 3. I think most people would've been able to find a spot for him in their top 5 despite having only 3 legit full-time years as a main event talent (1998-2001). Since then, however, he has added several more accolades to his resume and has helped promote WWE more than any other WWE icon has during this time.

It all started with him finally returning to host one of the worst WrestleManias in history (27). Throw in a random tag match, fast forward some months, and you have him main eventing one of the better WrestleManias in recent history (28) in a very solid match. A memorable 2-segment stint on RAW 1000 and several other surprises later, the Rock gives us his most physically active year since 2003 (I'm not shitting you) in 2013.
3 consecutive ppv main events, a record-breaking (at the time) 8th WWE Championship reign, and several classic battles of wit with CM Punk dominated the industry in 2013. The hype for WrestleMania 29 (which I attended in person) was enough to earn huge buyrates despite the card being one of the most predictable I've ever seen.

Although he has not donned the tights since that loss to Cena, he has given us 2 (about to be 3) straight WrestleMania moments at 30 and 31. To see the top 3 icons on the list all in the ring together at the SUPERdome was amazing, almost as amazing as seeing Ronda Rousey and the Rock layeth the smacketh down on Hunter and Steph's candy asses.

He is (and has been) the biggest action star in Hollywood. He is one of the most recognizable faces in the world, and he is STILL promoting and working with WWE. If he is not your choice for the greatest WWE Superstar of all-time, please explain to me what more he'd have to do in order to earn your vote. He paid his dues, became a megastar like Hogan and Austin, but is still helping them thrive today unlike Hogan and Austin.

1. The Rock
2. Hulk Hogan
3. Stone Cold Steve Austin

I said it.

 

[Greg4WWE]

The Rock the GOAT? I disagree. At no point was he the man if you ask me. You could argue The Rock held the brass ring for a bit, but it was overall still considered the Austin era. The Rock was a HUGE part of that don't get me wrong. He was decent in the ring and we all know could handle the microphone. But ask yourself, would there have been a Rock without Steve Austin? Personally his movie star status to me has nothing to do with the wrestling industry. Especially now that he rather be called Dwayne than The Rock on set.

Don't get me wrong. The Rock is awesome. But GOAT? Nah. I would put Hogan, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, HBK, Andre,and even John Cena ahead of him. (as long as we aren't talking technical wrestling ability, but what they have done for industry).

 

[Bernkastel]

The greatest wrestler of all time? Nah, not even close. On my all time list Rock falls somewhere in the top 20's. Now if you are just talking about WWE then I'd say he's top 5. I'd place him behind Sammartino, Austin, Hogan, and more recently John Cena.

The biggest killers to the Rock for his claim as WWE's number one have been his longevity at the top [it was short. Really short.] As a result his overall drawing power can't be considered as high as Sammartino's or Hogan's. In fact it's not even as high as Bob Backlund's, Andre's, or as I've come to realize Triple H's according to the scale Matt Farmer developed. However that is drawing power when tied to longevity and adjusted for inflation between eras.

If you're talking about a wrestler's drawing power over say the course of one year, Rock is quite high. But even still he'd be behind Austin, who still holds the record for most big gates set in a year.

Rock's greatest strength lies in his marketability, which arguably by now he has been surpassed in that aspect by Cena. The amount of merchandise and products and media outlets the WWE can push Cena into greatly surpass the outlets available to the Rock 15-20 years ago.

if you're talking in ring ability the again, Rock ranks pretty high. But then again that stuff is largely subjective. As far as consistency in between his pushes and time spent as a main eventer goes, Rock again ranks pretty high, but again his longevity kills him. His championship accolades also suffer. The Rock is an 8 time world champion. Impressive. But in those 8 reigns he only held the title for a combined little over a year. 368 days. In the WWE John Cena has held a world title for over 4 times that amount of time. Triple H twice that. Hogan around 6 times. Even Austin has held a world title in the WWE for a much longer period than the Rock did.

So between his poor longevity at the top and his lack of stellar accolades as a major world champion, I'd say that hurts him enough for him to ever be considered WWE's number 1. But like I said, he's still top 5 any way you slice it.

 

[jholcomb22]

To change your all time greatest rankings based on showing up at WM each year for an in ring segment is foolish. If Rock wasn't number 1 on your list after WM 28, he has done nothing since to earn it.
If you want to make the case that Rock is the greatest WM performer, you can make a better case. Like HBK, he doesn't have the best win/loss record, but he does have many memorable moments and matches.
The biggest argument that can be made for The Rock is that he beat the last 3 torch bearers of the company on the grandest stage, Hogan at 18, Austin at 19, and Cena at 28. Nobody else has done that, nobody else will ever have the opportunity to do it.
As for overall ranking, Rock is a top 5 guy, but not top 3.

 

[That N Word]

I'd say no. Simply because he hasn't done much to warrant that claim. I don't see him over Hogan,Flair,Austin,Sammartino,or even Cena at this point. However, if were talking just WWE...then I'd put him in the Top 5 over Flair. The way I see it, it goes


1.)Hulk Hogan
2.)Bruno Sammartino
3.)John Cena (debatable)
4.)Steve Austin
5.)The Rock

 

[the_peoples_adam]

No The Rock aint the greatest .If you ask me who is biggest star then ok with The rock but greatest he will never..
My Top 5:

1) Hulk Hogan
2) Steve Austin, John Cena
3) The Rock, Ric Flair, Sammartino
4) Randy Savage, HBK, Bret Hart, Brock Lesnar
5) Andre, HHH, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle

 

[Messiah]

When i rank the best ever i judge them based on star power in the business. I don't judge his Hollywood background in the wrestling business, simply because it doesn't mean shit to most fans.

For me, Hulk Hogan will always be #1

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Stone Cold
3. Andre the Giant
4. The Rock
5. John Cena

He's definitely in the top 5, but he can never make #1.

 

[Jerichoholic_6]

I think theres a difference between best of all time and best career of all time. For me 99-2000 Rock is the best a wrestler has ever been. The reactions he was getting every week and the promos he was doing were ridiculous (although everybody was getting huge pops every week in 2000).
Although you can say he didnt have a long run at the top or whatever, that was his own choice. He left in 03/04 barely over 30 years old still probably the top star WWE had.
You plug him in any era past 1970 and hes a superstar. I dont think you can say that about Hogan, Sammartino, HBK or many others. I think Austin has to be right up there with him but Rock is GOAT in my opinion

 

[J.J.]

There's no way I am going to put The Rock over Hogan and Austin. I'll etch him in at 3rd behind those guys. Hogan first, followed by Austin then The Rock. I haven't seen anyone draw like Hogan did in WWE during his prime years - not even Austin.

 

[Mustang Sally]

If he is not your choice for the greatest WWE Superstar of all-time, please explain to me what more he'd have to do in order to earn your vote.

I can appreciate what you're saying, yet answering the question requires more definition. For one thing, since you specify WWE, does that mean we don't include WWF or WWWF?

I think we should include the earlier incarnations and talk about the biggest superstar in company history, rather than just WWE history.

Given that, I would suggest there's no true way to know who was the biggest, since stars of the past didn't get the same media & social media coverage they do today; plus, WWWF and WWF were just regional organizations, making it impossible to measure how big some of the old guys would have been had they enjoyed the advantages available today.

Honestly, I believe Bruno Sammartino might have been a bigger superstar than the Rock. Just because none of us are old enough to have seen him in his prime doesn't mean his effect was any less powerful.

I've read that even little old grandmothers in Brooklyn, who had never seen a wrestling match in their lives, still knew who Bruno was. Plus, he worked in a time that pro wrestling was taken much more seriously than today. He packed the Felt Forum in Madison Square Garden (19,000 seats) every month for years. That's star power.

So, we can call anyone we want 'the greatest ever' but it's comparing apples & oranges.

 

[ghost94]

No love for The Undertaker? Haven't seen anyone bring him up...

 

[Mighty NorCal]

If he is not your choice for the greatest WWE Superstar of all-time, please explain to me what more he'd have to do in order to earn your vote.

He could start with being a full time top dog in the business for a decade.


Never happened, never will.


Ill give you that he could have been the greatest ever.


Worked out better for him that he wasn't, though.

 

[J.J.]

No love for The Undertaker? Haven't seen anyone bring him up...

Undertaker kinda been in the shadows of others. He was in the shadows of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels - but he was a bigger draw than Diesel and maybe even Hart during the mid 90s dry time. In the shadow of Austin and The Rock and it wasn't until after these guys faded that the emphasis has been placed upon his streak. I'll credit the longevity of his tenure and his status as a main event draw definitely put credence in the notion that he is one of the very best. But during his prime years, Austin and The Rock were the ones that brought in most of the revenue.

 

[BestInTheWorldv2]

For me he is no.1, simply because of the emotion he brings out of me when he's around.
he always has me fully invested and always has done.

But this topic is always great to debate on because generally its normally a generational thing. I was born 1995 and have been a wrestling fan all my life so naturally I'm going to be drawn to put The Rock and SCSA over Hogan and Flair and others and it might the other way round for people who are older than me and watched during that era.

But for me ive watched a lot of wrestling on youtube and now with the network just to fully understand peoples high regard for such greats as Hogan and Flair and Sammartino, but for me it just wasn't as enthralling and maybe because I just wasn't living in that moment, who knows.

But my top 5

1.Rock
2.Stone Cold Steve Austin
3.Hulk Hogan
4.John Cena
5.The Undertaker

 

[justinept]

I'm viewing this question under the prism of 'importance' to the WWE. In that, the criterion is based mostly on two simple questions: "How would the WWE be different if he had never wrestled for them" and "how would the WWE have been affected had he left at his apex."

For most wrestlers, this is speculative - but with The Rock, it isn't. The WWE did start to suffer once The Rock left for good in 2003. There's no denying that it was a different product without him than it was with him. There are, however, some outside factors that hurt the WWE in a post-Rock world. 1) The WWE was banking on Lesnar to carry the torch, and he left 6 months after The Rock pass it to him. 2) The Chris Benoit murder/suicide changed the company's direction in a way that not even The Rock could have prevented.

Now, had The Rock never shown up in the WWE - my belief is that the WWE would've been just fine. We would have missed out on some incredible television, but not knowing what we were missing, I dont think it would have changed the WWE's impact from 1999-2002 (The Rock's main event years)

If you're honest, you'll remember that The Rock wasn't the reason people turned from Nitro back to Raw in 1998. That was Austin and McMahon's doing. Essentially, The Rock was a guy who had a great look, a ton of charisma and was getting some great pops from the audience - but his star was truly born by being thrown into that program at Survivor Series 1998. Now this isn't to discredit The Rock in any way, shape or form, but he was a replaceable figure when he first entered the main event scene. Would it have been any less intriguing had Triple H turned on DX to win the title at Survivor Series 1998? Would we have turned off an Austin/Triple H main event at WrestleMania XV? I don't think so....

The Rock wasn't even the reason people stuck around when Austin was injured in 2000. That was a group effort from The Rock, Foley, Triple H, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, etc. There was so much talent on that roster, and while The Rock was the biggest draw, WCW was so far gone at that point that there really wasn't one wrestler on the roster that would've made the difference between success and failure.

The difference between success and failure is what makes me list Austin, Hogan and The Undertaker ahead of The Rock. Without Austin, the WWE likely would have gone under in 1998. Without Hogan, the WWE never would've become the global force it became. And if The Undertaker had left for WCW in 1996 or 1997, it would've crushed the WWE.

So when I think of the best ever in the WWE - that's what comes to mind... the guys who made the biggest impact on the success or failure of the company. There's no denying The Rock has a place very high on that list - probably somewhere between 4-6, depending on how big an impact you believe Andre The Giant and Roddy Piper had... but there's just no way I can put him in my top-3, much less name him the best ever...

My list:

Hulk Hogan: The ball never gets rolling without him. He had the charisma and the look to differentiate the WWF from every other wrestler promotion.

Steve Austin: The ball stops without Austin. The NWO was the biggest angle in wrestling history - led by the biggest star in wrestling history and featuring two of the WWE's biggest stars of the 1990s. It was an iconic angle that created the heel boss and made it cool for the bad guy to win... Austin basically gave that faction an 18-month head start, and then took their audience when the faction was at its apex. That's kind of insane if you think about it...

The Undertaker: Whether it's truth or WWE legend that The Undertaker's presence kept the locker room together during a tumultuous 1996 and 1997 is up for debate. But I choose to believe it. I do think if this guy showed up on Nitro in 1997, I'd have stopped watching Raw...

Roddy Piper: This is a controversial one, I'm sure, but I do believe that Piper was the perfect foi to Hogan - the perfect guy to help sell WrestleMania. We forget that the first Mania wasn't a guaranteed success, and that it's failure would have ruined the company. Hogan was a huge draw, sure. But if his drawing power was such a given in 1984, then what was the WWF worried about? The fact is that there are two parts to the main event, the face and the heel. In 1984, you needed to want to see the heel get his ass kicked to shell out money to see it. Piper did that.

The Rock: He's the biggest star on the list by a mile - bigger than Hogan and Austin. But his impact in the WWE isn't as great as the 4 I listed above him. The difference between the above 4 wrestlers working in the WWE and not working in the WWE, in my opinion, is the difference between the WWE being in business or not being in business... The difference between The Rock working in the WWE and not working in the WWE, in my opinion, is the difference between a 6.5 rating in 2000 or a 5.0 rating in 2000.

 

[Azane]

Top 5 for me are still Hogan, Austin, Sammartino, Randy Savage, Undertaker.

The rock is close at 6 or 7, but to push ahead of all of those people, he would have to not have left to do movies over wrestling, I'm not bitter at it, I'm just saying that it detracts from my personal criteria.

I don't even think The Rock was the best in the company for very long, when Austin was forced out of retirement, Brock was just taking over as the dominant face of wrestling. While it's true that he had Pay Per Views named after him (Rock Bottom) and to this day, the 2ndary show named after his catchphrase is still in existence (People actually watch it I guess?). DX, Austin, For a few weeks Foley, Undertaker and Brock all outshone him while he was wrestling. Meanwhile, when Austin was wrestling, he was the only face of the company, period, Similarly, when Hogan was the face of the company, His name and branding were as big as the company.

The Rock is competing with Cena for that 6 or 7th slot for me still, I actually think John Cena will be in my top 3 post-career, as I will probably remember him like Hogan.

Outside of wrestling, I will say, Rock has probably made the biggest impact of a wrestler in Hollywood, but I strongly believe that his WM appearances as a part timer are detracting from the youth growing into their shoes, and holding the company back as The WWE's Biggest attraction is turning into a class reunion more than a showcase for the current generation.

 

[YatesA]

So pretty much everyone agrees The Rock is one of the best but isn't top 3-5 because of his longevity. If I was to choose one guy to pay to see, it'd be The Rock, don't care if he did one year or 20 years. I understand the whole being in the business longer concept but it's a bit loose as imagine using that to determine the best football ( soccer ) player. Ronaldinho didn't maintain his ability for as long as some players did but does that detract his status as one of the best? Not for me.

 

[J.J.]

So pretty much everyone agrees The Rock is one of the best but isn't top 3-5 because of his longevity. If I was to choose one guy to pay to see, it'd be The Rock, don't care if he did one year or 20 years. I understand the whole being in the business longer concept but it's a bit loose as imagine using that to determine the best football ( soccer ) player. Ronaldinho didn't maintain his ability for as long as some players did but does that detract his status as one of the best? Not for me.

Good point. That's why my opinion was based upon more of a business impact than accolades. If it's based upon accolades then John Cena, Triple H and Edge are head and shoulders above the rest. But the reasons I rank him behind Hogan is because without Hogan it's safe to say that WWE wouldn't have succeeded after going national. While Austin is WWE's clear savior during the late 90s - had WCW hadn't fired Austin or had he not left ECW when he did then that changes the landscape of things and it's a strong possibility we would be discussing WCW and not WWE right now.

 

[JohnHavok]

My personal top 5 in order:

1. Hogan
2. Rock
3. Flair
4. Austin
5. Cena

6. Undertaker

There are legit arguments for ordering on every one of these stars, but realistically, I don't think there's an argument for the top 6 since 1980 to include any other wrestlers other than these 6. Some would argue for Andre the Giant, but he was really at the tail end of his career when WWF really got into the mainstream.

Hogan and Flair built wrestling in the 80s and Hogan crossed over into mainstream movies and entertainment much moreso than Flair, who was just all about wrestling. When Hogan turned heel in the 90's it was the single biggest swerve in the history of the business and was THE reason the WCW stayed ahead of the ratings for so long. Austin took the ratings back and the Rock took it to the next level and really just transcended the business and became a worldwide entertainment icon. Cena was given the torch and has carried it for the 10+ years since and has crossed over into mainstream entertainment as well, but to nowhere near the degree of The Rock.

The reason I place the Undertaker 6 is because he is the ultimate wrestler like Flair, and really changed the game with his character - owning what is arguably the single coolest character in the history of wrestling. But, he's never done anything other than wrestling and will never challenge for the most titles, or the longest reigns, and has never had a sniff of mainstream entertainment appeal. He - much like Flair, is what every guy who straps on the boots should aspire to be as a wrestler, but as far as the entire entertainment industry goes... Hogan and The Rock are the cream of the crop.

 

[rmp0012002]

Are we talking greatest "wrestler" or "sports entertainer"? He might have been good at talking shit on the mic like Austin but wrestler is a whole different story.

 

[waylonmercy]

Ranking the greatest ever is impossible to do. Greatest ever is so vague. Greatest overall wrestler? Greatest in ring wrestler? Also do you evenly distribute the weights of each section of wrestling? (in ring, mic, charisma, story telling, facials, drawing power, etc)

When I think of greatest ever it is so incredibly complicated. 99.9% of the people here couldn't really give a fair assessment since they haven't seen the body of work of ALL wrestlers who were known as the biggest draw. I am 36 and I have barely scraped the surface of workers such as Billy Graham, Bob Backlund and earlier from there. I would probably be able to formulate a fair opinion from Hulk Hogan's WWF debut on. Being Canadian I never had access in the 1980s to NWA content so it squeues things further.

Based on their overall careers:

1) Ric Flair
2) Hulk Hogan

I say this because Ric Flair was a more complete overall worker than Hogan. Ric Flair made the workers he was in the ring with BETTER. He had more 5 star matches than Hogan, in my opinion better on the mic than Hogan, and put over more talent than Hogan. Why that makes him overall better than Hogan was that he was confident in his abilities and place on the card that he could have return matches with talent and have the fans intrigued. Hogan rarely put over workers in his prime and wouldn't rank as high had he been apart of the current era of wrestling. Ric Flair in his prime today would still be at the top of the card because throughout history being a strong in ring worker has continued to be very important.

As for the Rock, his career was too short to be in the top 5 in my opinion. I feel people like Bruno Sammartino, Lou Thesz, Dusty Rhodes, Harley Race, Billy Graham would rank higher.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

4 or 5. Greatest of all time in a wrestling sense doesn't put him in the number one spot. But his Hollywood connections as an action star puts him near the top in that category. Nobody in wrestling has had his kind of success in Hollywood, nobody. He's definitely number one with Hollywood stats. In wrestling terms, he's toppled them all, won big at all the big events against all the company's big stars...John Cena, Hogan, C.M Punk, The Undertaker, Triple H , Jericho, Stone Cold Steve Austin....not a shabby list of defeated opponents. The Rock has been WWE Champion 8 times. He's held other belts I.C, Tag and has been wrestling history's top mic worker with smack talking his opponents all over the place. So just with those things going for The Rock, how could he possibly not be in the top five all time ?

IMO John Cena has busted his ass twelve times harder in wrestling than The Rock and deserves a higher spot with all the success he's had.

Andre The Giant went undefeated for 15 years. How could anyone argue with that statistic and claim Andre doesn't deserve a spot in the all time greats. Despite a lack of belts....

Hulk Hogan WAS wrestling from 1985 to 1995...he even had the best heel turn of all time to reinvent himself and lead the best faction of all time. He's had multiple accolades that stretches not only in WWE, but across the world. He's number one in my eyes, who in history had more impact in wrestling ? The most recognizable wrestling star in history, The Hulkster.

I know very little about Bruno Sammartino but he headlined MSG forever and had long title reigns.

Wooo ! The Nature Boy Ric Flair for obvious reasons , multiple belts...headlining for years ...Jesus his career makes C.M Punks career look like he never came out of the Indies. Flair has had more one hour matches than anyone in history. He's wrestled more hour long battles in a month than the WWE roster has had ( combined ) in a month. His powerful Four Horsemen faction was the original NWO and paved the way for future factions. His promos were always filled with passion as wrestling flowed in the man's veins. For me, Ric Flair would probably fit right in second or third near John Cena.

The Rock is one of the greatest of all time, but at least 5th place. There are better ( wrestling ) god's in the list than The Great One.

 

[SSJPhenom]

It's always hard when we start talking about the GOAT. What the OP should have done was put together a criteria list on what makes one the GOAT and then have us discuss how the Rock and others fit or don't fit into each category. When you say, "Who is the greatest of all time", though, everyone is going to give their subjective opinion on the matter.

Most people on these here forums love to rank the greatest wrestlers by their drawing ability, place on the card, and things like that. So, when talking about things of that nature, I say the Rock is easily in the top 5 and maybe even as high as 3. I mean, he's definitely behind Hogan and Austin. As others have pointed out, he just might be behind Sammartino and Flair, it depends on how you look it. I, on the other hand, like to judge the GOAT on a series of several things. For example; drawing ability, place on the card, longevity, influence, in ring ability, mic ability, popularity, and respect. When all of those come into play, unfortunately the Rock falls far. Maybe even out of the top 10. When all of those come into play people like Flair, HHH, HBK, Andre, Sammartino, Macho Man, 'Taker, Austin, Hogan, and maybe even more come before the Rock. His longevity is his biggest deterrent, but he also suffers because of the era in which he was at his biggest. The Attitude Era was, let's face it people, the Austin Era and although the Rock was definitely a major part of that time period, he is always going to be #2 behind SCSA.

So unfortunately, the Rock is not the greatest of all time and really, he's not even close. Unless of course we're only talking about mic ability. In that case, he's far and away the greatest of all time.

 

[Coco]

In my head, I sometimes toy with the idea that Rock is the greatest ever. And it comes down to a few simple criteria:

1) Making a butt load of money
2) Getting out relatively healthy at a relatively young age
3) Not needing to come crawling back in desperation

If Rock's not the greatest of all time, it's probably Goldberg. But Rock still has mainstream relevance and access to butt loads of money. So he wins.

Depending on the day of the week I'm asked, I 100% believe everything I just wrote.

I also realize my criteria is nonsense to most of you. Carry on.

 

[laodaron]

Greatest of all time is an odd title to grant someone...

For instance, I think that The Rock is very much the Most Electrifying Superstar ever. I think that his pops might very well be the greatest pops of all time, and his time at the top might have been the most fun for a fan.

But in terms of longevity, influence and importance to the industry, and pure in ring ability, he may or may not be in the top 20.