In All Seriousness, Is It Time For Vince McMahon To Relinquish Creative Control?

[Jack-Hammer]

We haven't had a thread discussing the ratings situation in WWE for a while now and I think the recent batches of numbers warrant it. The past several weeks, WWE Monday Night Raw has drawn some of the lowest numbers in its history and while time was that could merely be blamed on going up against Monday Night Football, it's not nearly that simple. However, to be fair, there is still some credence to it when you consider that Raw's competition on Monday nights has never been stronger. Not only does it have to contend with Monday Night Football, but the MLB Playoffs are taking place and ratings powerhouse shows like the Big Bang Theory, Dancing with the Stars and the Voice also air on Monday nights. Considering the time of year, that much competition is bound to eat into Raw's numbers to some degree.

The problem, however, is that Raw's numbers haven't been exactly spectacular for about a year or so. Even during WrestleMania season this year, Raw had to struggle to draw in the low 4 millions, though that's without factoring in DVR viewership. Even if you factor in DVR viewership into the equation, Raw usually only barely gets about 4 million viewers in the states and, again, it's been that way for a while. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but it seems to me that only the hardcore WWE fans are tuning in and a significant amount of fans are just not connecting with or are interested in most of what's going on. It's true that there are times of peaks and valleys in the ratings throughout the year at specific points, but there's less and less cushion to soften the blow and that's been the case throughout this year.

While WWE's creative team often gets the criticism, the buck has to stop with Vince McMahon because NOTHING happens on WWE television without his say so; Vincent Kennedy McMahon has THE final word on who gets pushed, what storylines are done, who wins titles & who doesn't, the script for the promos and damn near everything else. It's been the perspective of many internet fans and dirt sheet writers for a while now that Vince is out of touch with modern wrestling audiences; as with the ratings problems in past years, it's something that can no longer really be just written off as being a "handful" of internet fans because it's no longer just internet fans but average and casual fans as well.

I'm not saying this to rain down hate on him, though I know some fans despise the air he breathes. I'm also not even remotely trying to insinuate that I have some sort of special insight that nobody, including Vince, else has; it's just that a lot of Vince's ideas no longer resonate. For instance, most of the comedy stuff we see in the ring or jokes from commentators aren't at all funny in most people's minds, most fans think that there's so much more that can be done with women rather than portraying them as shallow, petty, catty bitches acting as though they're 16 years old, most fans don't understand why nearly every word out of the mouths of wrestlers have to be scripted, etc. There's a reason why NXT continues to gain near universal praise from fans, writers, insiders and wrestlers themselves: it feels extremely fresh and has a creative aspect that doesn't sometimes feel as though it's just flat out standing still or lazy. On the corporate side of things, Vince still has the Midas Touch, but I'm not convinced that he has that creative vision now.

Is it time for Vince McMahon to step aside?

 

[@smarkmouth]

You know what's kind of funny? We hear that Vince nitpicks and tears the script up minutes before broadcasting, but his main concern has always been John Cena. I don't think it's a bold statement to call the US Open Challenge the highlight of most RAWs since WrestleMania. If Vince's fingers are still knuckles deep in everything Cena, then he's doing a great job on that front.

And then there are stories such as the New Day, which Vince allegedly envisioned the group as babyfaces. Kofi has said that Vince was upset in how that face run was a failure. Why on Earth would Vince expect people to cheer for the New Day for the same reason that we boo'd the Spirit Squad?

Beyond that, how many times have we read that Vince thinks Cesaro is boring. Sure, taste is subjective, but he is failing profusely to listen to Cesaro's reaction. He might not have people at the edge of their seat when he's on a microphone, but the crowd goes nuts when this guy is allowed to wrestle a match. I haven't seen that kind of reaction since before Daniel Bryan started shouting "YES!".

If Vince could bring the quality from the Cena open challenge into the rest of the programming, then he should remain in power. But he can't. The rest of the programming reflects just how out of touch the man is, as does the ratings.

 

[Nada]

Id say it was time to consider it after the botched Invasion angle, the botched nWo angle confirmed it for me. Then add in other stars that they brought in which all failed, Goldberg wearing a wig in a segment, Scott Steiner, the notorious Reign of Terror where nepotism showed its ugly head. Then add in the dumb Austin heel turn, Katie Vick idiocy, Kane unmasking and the list piles up and up.


Why am i bringing up 2002/2004 when we are in 2015? Because whatever excuse Vince has, about guys being lazy millenials who cannot grab the spotlight and become big stars is complete and utter horseshit. He had the best roster in 2002/2004 that perhaps any wrestling company has ever had in America. And he did not know what to do with it then, and he does not know what to do with the geeks (that he created) now.


I remember back then, if you dared suggest Vince was out of touch, you got screamed down on every forum. "Vince won the war, how dare you!". well we are now 14ish years removed from that. And perhaps after all these years, after botching story after story, including a Bret Hart return that resulted in the one of the least successful Wrestlemania's from a PPV buys in the modern era (a entire book can be written about this). Its time for the vast majority of wrestling fans to accept that the man has been done for, for many years.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

You also have to consider that this is the worst time on the schedule for WWE. It's a major down time after Night of Champions and the long sleepy patch before the Royal Rumble. Ratings are going to be bad in this time always. Unless the WWE has stars as popular as Stone Cold and The Rock were on the same show then it really boils down to what creative can cook up during these down times with the current roster.

I read an article where it said that as creative as Triple H is, he's not ready to be eaten alive in the corporate world at conferences.

 

[conici]

Vince has to be considered to be 'over the hill'. Raw has been dreadful for years now with only a few highlights saving it from 1995 tier dreadfulness (Shield 2013 run, early Wyatts, Cena US open challenge etc), his inability to produce new talent is now clear as day to see Cesaro is a massive example, I think the Stone Cold podcast really exposed him for the fans to see. He is done. He has been done for a long time now its time someone takes him to the back of the proverbial shed.

 

[WorstWrestlingExcrement]

Wrestling is dying and it is not believable . He killed Wrestling , there is no competition and many fans have adverted and converted to NFL and UFC a real sport to watch and follow. Numbers and statistics speak for themselves when fans watched WCW and disliked wwe

 

[timothy26]

He's not pushing Cesaro because he personally finds him boring? Even though he's almost universally liked by all WWE fans and is renowned for his immense talent?

Sounds like Vince is a bad businessman then, does the CEO of Coca Cola have to like all the flavours of drink that they sell? should he discontinue Fanta because he doesn't like Fanta?

Vince seems like someone who cared way more about beating WCW at the time and constantly reminding us of that and pushing what HE wants to see on TV rather than what's best for WWE.

 

[Aquaman6686]

Vince is simultaneously the best and worst thing for WWE creative. His love affairs with John Cena and Brock Lesnar being pushed above everyone else and NEVER allowing them to lose clean, hurts everyone else's chance to become a major draw for the company, because it's clear that he cares only about John Cena and Brock Lesnar, and nobody else matters. But at the same time, he seems to be the only person with any power in WWE who DOESN'T want to see every top star in the company lose to every young rookie who comes along. Vince is the only one who seems to understand that veteran talents consistently losing matches to rookies permanently damages their drawing power.

 

[ajdb]

I read a column recently that described the current state of the WWE in the following way:

"We are now in the latter stages of the epic novel where the man of incredible ambition, achievement and hubris complexly and sadly declines due to the very same stubbornness, ruthlessness and lessons that helped him win the kingdom."

I think that hits it perfectly. Vince is starting to miss worse and worse. Look at this year, the Royal Rumble was a horror show, WrestleMania's main event had to be altered with a month of the event, the divas revolution has been shambolic. Sting's entire run has been cringeworthy. The product put before us does not connect.

Stephanie McMahon recent said at a marketing seminar that the WWE listens to its audience. We know that's a lie. She used WrestleMania & the Divas Revolution as examples of WWE listening to the fans. In fact those are examples of not listening to the fans. The fans made very clear before the Rumble that Reigns was not the man. The Divas Revolution is not what the people wanted from it.

We as wrestling fans can't and shouldn't have everything we demand, but you have to cater to the audience some of the time. The new policy coming down the pipe about not hiring well known talent will further Vince's ability to squash what the fans want and throw any old shit he wants at us.

 

[Navi]

Vince McMahon even though he has a brilliant mind for the business, is sorely out of touch with today's fans.

The main problem with the ratings is that RAW, the WWE flagship show is boring. The matches are repetitive, most story lines lack any kind of creative value. Wrestler's are pushed or not, based on the whim's of one man, and the fans can go to hell.

Daniel Bryan aside, look at someone like Cesaro. Yes the guy kind of sucks on the mic, but he's not really been given a chance. WWE legends and HOFamers are puzzled about how the WWE treats their talent.

I remember reading a story where Mick Foley was asked "What is the first thing you would do if you took over RAW?" The answer was "Push Cesaro." He too is puzzled as to how someone like Cesaro is being handled. Add Jim Ross and Steve Austin to that list as well. When you have big names like that questioning the decision making, then maybe the decision maker is wrong.

I've watched Cesaro try to get over, and been stopped. It's almost like McMahon doesn't want to be proven wrong, and it's hurting the product as a whole. Cesaro isn't the only one treated like that. Ambrose is another. A former member of the Shield now being used to get Roman Reigns favorable reaction's.

Quite honestly as a fan I want to watch wrestling and be entertained, and for the longest time now I haven't been. New Day is a breath of fresh air, but they weren't always like that. Vince wanted them to be babyfaces, it didn't work, turning them heel did. Reports are Vince isn't happy. Not happy that the most entertaining group on his show is going like gangbusters. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

It's time for Vince to step down and let someone else take over the creative reigns of the company. Let Vince deal with the corporate side, but get him out of the scripts and story line plans. One of the best RAW's this year was the one after Mania, and the general consensus on the LD thread that night was that HHH was in charge and running the show. It was fast paced, entertaining, and thoroughly enjoyable. Been downhill since then.

They have to start making new stars, can't rely on Cena forever to carry the company on his back. The next few months will be a real test. It will show if Vince's single track mindedness towards Cena being the go-to guy will was the right decision or not, when he's not around. Let's look at the ratings after Cena doesn't show up for a couple of months. If the rest of the roster can't bring people to the TV screen, then Vince has been wrong the whole time. If the ratings stay the same, then Vince was right.

 

[conici]

I don't think I have ever been this stressed and agitated by the WWE and the product its been providing since I have started watching wrestling.

I can't fucking stand Vince's mentality to this business anymore its so outdated. I don't understand why would you want to stop someone who is over. You are basically preventing your fucking company from making money. He does this shit and then has the BALLS to say he 'listens to the fans' fuck off, Vince you only listen to your dementia-ridden self and that's all. I cannot wait for the day HHH takes your spot you tired old bastard.

I've never had this kind of reaction to the product before this and his treatment of talent such as Cesaro, Bryan and Ryder(examples) just doesn't make any sense as well to me. You're telling me that Vince McMahon thought that IN 2014 FOR YOUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY OF YOUR BIGGEST FUCKING SHOW that the fans wanted to see Batista v Randy Orton, only until the fans had to hijack the fucking show yes, hijack your godamn flagship show did you get the message.

His ideas and his mindset is so toxic to this current roster just look at the divas revolution as well, who ever thought of that idea to split them in to 3 factions and have random silly little tag matches needs to be removed from writing duties and have his/her hands cut off so he/she can never ever contribute again and I don't know why Vince thought it was a great idea and green lighted it.

Triple H although is not perfect he has the right mentality he said on the NXT panel at SS that even though he might not see why something is over why would he want to put a stop to it when its over? Vince why the fuck do you do this to your product and your fans.

This isn't the attitude era, this isn't the golden generation. You are ruining a whole generation of talent. Step the fuck down.

/RANT

 

[Garak]

Is it time for Vince McMahon to step aside?

To put it bluntly, the only way that's going to happen is when he dies or someone puts enough cash in front of him to convince him to hand over all his shares. And he'll probably die the next day out of boredom.

In the end, he's ultimately responsible. He puts out the product he wants. We choose to consume it or not. Since I assume that none of us has enough money to buy Vince out, we are left with the choice of watching or not watching.

 

[TML3:16]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. To me the WWE is starting to get like WCW, boring, predictable and just over exposing talent and under using talent. We see the same names/faces all the time, yet nothing seems to happen with them. I don't want to harp on about the attitude era, but re watching all the old Raws really shows what is wrong with todays show. Everyone had a character and a story that mean't something and most of the time you could follow where they were going and switching to their next feuds. And perhaps more importantly each Raw made you want to tune in next week and they really convinced you to wanna get the PPV's. This month we have Lesner/Taker in a cell and no build up. It's like an after thought. I'm just not excited about this match and I feel I should be, but I can't invest in it because nothing happens regarding it. The product is just stale and unexciting and it's a shame, and the selling point for next weeks show is HBK and whoever else. Stars from the past basically. Of course I'm gonna watch, but that shouldn't be the sole selling point for the show, but it is.
The reason NXT is blowing up is because its a simple wrestling show. Fans can get involved, characters are a lot more real, what they do makes sense and people can invest in them. The first time I saw Enzo and Cas I loved em. They reminded me of the outlaws back in the day. All the crowd saying the promo with em and generally marking out. I don't see that reaction at all on Raw and that is what is wrong. It's not about being PG or TV-14, its about putting a show on that is stimulating and the show isn't. Wrestling wise it's probably never been better, but because the product is that boring it's getting over looked.
We all have our favourites, but people just wanna cheer them in the ring and then cheer them leave. It doesn't matter what Randy Orton does aslong as we see him pose and then we all get to see him do the RKO in some crazy way. It just doesn't matter if he wins.

The biggest problem is what happens in the ring just doesn't matter anymore. How can you put a "competitive" product out there and not have wins and losses matter?

 

[OYDK]

I don't think I have ever been this stressed and agitated by the WWE and the product its been providing since I have started watching wrestling.

I feel the exact same way. These past few months have been just atrocious to watch. My face during Raw is basically the face Cole's making in my sig. The talents are really what are saving this show for me. Isn't it fucking incredible that the WWE can have a roster that includes Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bray Wyatt, Kevin Owens, Cesaro, Neville, Barrett, Sheamus, etc. etc. etc. and CAN'T PRODUCE A WATCHABLE PRODUCT. I mean, you literally have to sabotage the damn thing to make it this bad. Also, just read that Vince is "upset" that Lana and Rusev were engaged because it "interfered" with the storyline. So now he wants people to put their lives on hold for the sake of (probably) the worst storyline in recent memory.

I used to love Vince. I was one of those people who always thought he was a genius. But man, I don't know what's happening with him. It's obvious to literally EVERYBODY but Vince that he really has no clue what he's doing at this point. He just doesn't have "it" anymore. Cesaro should come out and cut a promo on Vince similar to Punk's... "I'm not entertaining? Well guess what? I love this industry and I'm damn good at what I do. You've become a cancer to pro-wrestling and it will be better off when you're dead and gone. I AM wrestling. You're an out-of-touch despot. Got your attention now?" What does he have to lose really?

The mis-handling of Sting, the ridiculous idea to go through with Batista and Reigns at Mania 30 and 31, the changing of the past two Mania main events, his opinions on Cesaro, his decisions when it comes to guys like Rusev, Barret, and Neville . I think this era has finally caught up to Vince. He was always in control, but now the fans are in control and he just doesn't know how to handle it anymore. I think he realizes that, but his pride would never allow him to admit it.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Vince McMahon even though he has a brilliant mind for the business, is sorely out of touch with today's fans.

And how could it be otherwise? If you were looking to run a company with a youthful customer base, would you turn to your grandfather for fresh ideas?

The other big problem is that the man has been in the business almost his entire life. In a form of entertainment in which just about everything that can be presented has been presented, having what amounts to a one-man creative department guarantees a slowdown in new ideas. Vince has been at this for too damn long.

Besides, it doesn't matter if the people he hires are the best & brightest in the creative field; if Vince won't listen to them, they're useless to WWE.

The results of NXT can't be ignored; if that's the one area that Vince has left to his son-in-law and daughter.....and that venture is the freshest and most
successful in the entire company.....the volumes spoken by that spell out the obvious.

 

[That N Word]

I should say so. I think something big is about to happen in WWE. Either Vince McMahon will step down or create another great era in wrestling after learning from his mistakes. The last time WWE ratings become this low and the product begins to suck, that is when Vince gave us The Attitude Era.

He needs to either give Triple H and Stephanie control of the company or stop burying people based off of his personal interest and realize it's not about him. It's about the fans at the end of the day.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

I said it once and I will say it again, people give Vince too little credit for his work. Its easy to cry how Cesaro should be pushed(not saying that he shouldnt just making an example) and dont see that you have Rollins, Owens and New Day as Champions, Cena defending title every week, Lesnar vs Undertaker on random PPV and not just at Mania etc. Ah, yes, I forgot, everything good that is happening in WWE is saint HHHs and his wifes fault and everything bad is Vinces fault. My bad.

Sure, product is not brightest thing right now. Rollins is booked bad, Kane mainevents in a year 2015, some guys like Cesaro and Cody should be getting pushed instead of other guys, Divas Revolution sucks in terms that you still have awfull storylines and matches and nothing has changed etc. But make no mistake, you wouldnt get that much better product if Vince was gone right now. Little fresher maybe but better, not that much. You would still have same people backstage aside that HHH and Steph would call all main shots. Which they even do right now because its not like they are without main power and Vince calls everything.

Is he out of touch? Kinda is. Just because he cant see "It factor" in Cesaro doesnt mean that he is out of touch. But he does need fresh ideas because product got stale right now. Though its not Wrestlemania season yet, expecting everything to be fine for Wrestlemania 32 because they want record attendance.

 

[Navi]

Also, just read that Vince is "upset" that Lana and Rusev were engaged because it "interfered" with the storyline. So now he wants people to put their lives on hold for the sake of (probably) the worst storyline in recent memory.

I read that as well on the main page. The Wrestling Observer Newsletter is reporting that the WWE was aware the two were engaged, shit they got engaged a month ago, so I'm sure they told them. The WWE were the ones who let TMZ in on the story, so it would look like TMZ broke the news. Rusev and Lana managed to keep it a secret but the WWE didn't think so.

Then they used the TMZ report to end the worst story line in I have no idea how long. Now Vince is pissed that Rusev and Lana didn't stay in character, and the story line had to be rushed to a conclusion because of it.

Yet Brie Bella and Daniel Bryan got married on Total Diva's, Nikki Bella and John Cena are dating on Total Diva's, and their relationships are never mentioned on RAW or SD, especially since Brie turned heel. They only ever mention her and Bryan when she's a face.

You have to wonder about someone who gives the go ahead to let others in on a story, let's them use the story, and then uses their report to end a feud, and then gets mad about it. If that makes any sense.

Vince needs to hand over the creative role, and just be there as a sounding board. Take him out of the final decision making process.

 

[Garak]

But make no mistake, you wouldnt get that much better product if Vince was gone right now.

Agreed. There is one notable promotion that has no Vince McMahon whatsoever, yet can't keep a TV deal. We've had plenty of promotions not run by Vince over the years, while his is the last one left.

 

[conici]

Agreed. There is one notable promotion that has no Vince McMahon whatsoever, yet can't keep a TV deal. We've had plenty of promotions not run by Vince over the years, while his is the last one left.

Vince knows how to keep a wrestling business alive but we just cannot ignore declining raw ratings Vince is out of touch there is no debate Vince is a brilliant business man but his creative touch is gone. This is a debate about Vince and his total 100% my way or the highway approach to booking at this point it is detrimental to the WWE product.

Of course Vince McMahon can be an incredible asset as a business man to WWE look at TNA for example in 2012 Impact Wrestling was the best wrestling show of that year everything they did seemed to work but they were still in turmoil. Vince can still help run WWE but his iron grip needs to be severed

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I say this with a heavy heart, as Vince McMahon is one of my all-time heroes and man who has provided me with so much enjoyment over the years, but YES, I think it's time for him to step aside and let Triple H take over the reigns of the creative direction of WWE.

Vince was incredible. He was able to adapt with the times, overcome so many obstacles and defeat Ted Turner's empire, while revolutionising the PPV industry and making wrestling into a global industry, but he's slowly but surely becoming out-of-date. It's only natural, the guy is in his late 60s/early 70s and how can he be expected to have his finger on modern trends? He's so passionate about his company that he's always been reluctant to hand over and form of control to anyone else, it's well known that Vince doesn't take holidays or days off. WWE is everything to him.

I don't think we'll ever see him retire, he'll be in control until the day he passes unless he becomes physically incapable of running the company. He's so proud he won't admit his failings, which could be to the detriment of WWE (he must know he's out of touch already).

It'll be a sad day though when Vince McMahon isn't THE guy in charge of WWE anymore...

 

[Mighty NorCal]

The answer to this has been plain as day for years, but the conversation is futile.


A better, more effective thing to do would be to get rid of Kevin Dunn. Only slightly less futile of a suggestion. but I have a solid feeling that if Vince died in a car wreck tomorrow, Dunn would be fired directly after the funeral at the reception table that had snacks on it.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Creative definitely needs a shakeup in WWE because quite frankly there is little to no creativity going on these days, at least on the main shows. I think having a fresh brain taking over creative could help a ton but it's really a question of who's the right person and I'm not entirely sold on Triple H and Stephanie.

Steph is one of the worst head writers of all time from what I've seen and sometimes Triple H seems a little too politic heavy when it comes to his creativity at times although he's also proven to be pretty good as well. There's certainly nothing wrong with hand picking your talent but in order to be a real asset creatively I feel you have to put personal feelings aside at all times and simply do what's right and I wonder if Triple H and Steph have that in them. At times they seem like they do, at times they seem like they don't and quite frankly holding someone down because you don't like them or they are a little difficult to deal with backstage is pretty idiotic from a business perspective. I'm not at all saying that Triple H and Steph do those kinds of things and you can't really use Triple H politicking from his in ring career as evidence because of course he's going to look out for himself and do what he can to be on top, when he's not in the equation though it could be a very different story but at the same time you can't ignore history either. I think Triple H has what it takes to be a very good head of creative as long as he's not overly influenced by Steph and he can put personal beef aside, he obviously loves wrestling and has a good grasp on the product but the Stephanie variable could very well counteract that. I'm not really trying to knock Stephanie here but I feel it should be 1 persons vision when it comes to creative (while having numerous brains bouncing things off of) and her track record as a writer is pretty damn shitty.

I have no doubt that someone new should take head of creative but replacing Vince is a tall order and you have to get someone back there that has a strong vision, a good understanding of the business, and most of all is incredibly adept at building talent, stars, and storylines. To meet those requirements isn't easy but if the person in charge doesn't meet them then quite frankly things will be much worse without Vince. Does he need to step down creatively? Yes. Do we know who his best replacement would be? Probably not.

 

[Hollie_Louise]

Deleted

 

[Hollie_Louise]

Should Vince relinquish all control of creative? Maybe so but just to add another dimension to discussion.

Triple H has done a phenomenal job of subtly creating the idea that he is nothing to do with creative on the main shows, everything is Vince because he's the final guy, the final call goes to Vince. Which is fine, I don't doubt Vince has final control but I don't believe for a second that the Executive Vice President of Creative shouldn't take some of the responsibility for the piss poor standard of Raw and Smackdown. The clue is in the job title.

Something to think about, somebody said in this thread that Steph was one of/the worst head writers in WWE's history. Now the sentiment I don't necessarily have an opinion on, that's just personal preference and I'm not arguing that point. But when Steph was EVP, Creative, Vince McMahon was still the final filter, he was still the person with the final say. So why, with Triple H as EVP, Creative and Vince as the person with the final say, is Levesque not attributed the same level of culpability as his wife is?

We accept that Vince is the final filter but no terrible Raw is ever attributed to the head of the creative department.

I think Vince maybe should step aside but this image Triple H has managed to create for himself will bite him on the ass when Vince isn't there to take the blame and that will be a very difficult situation for Levesque to deal with. At the minute, he can take the credit for NXT and pass the buck on Raw/SD, it won't always be that way.