How often do WWE + WHC titles need to change?

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nish2231995

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alright so basically i want to give you some stats
in 2009
wwe champions included- hardy, edge, triple h ,randy, batista, randy, cena, randy, cena , sheamus

a total of 10 reigns- at an average of wwe title changing every 1.2 months

whc champions include- cena, edge, cena, edge, hardy, punk, hardy, punk, taker at an average of 1.5 months.
so with this in mind, my question here is, do main titles get changed toooooo much, and how many reigns should there be in a year.

for me, i would like to see a title changing every 3 months, that way, the champ isn't hurt with a decent title run, much like the miz's, and we don't get tooo much exposure like cena did in 06/07 (he held the title for a year?)

so around 4-5 title reigns, and at the moment yesssss, as there has been 5 world title champs already (edge, zig zag, edge, christian and orton)
thoughts?
 
I don't believe it should be a set number of months, then we know when it's going to change. A solid championship run is always good, and it depends on who has it, and what the story line is.

But things like 15 minute reigns are beyond pointless, like Ziggler's reign.
 
Having a set lengths for title reigns would be utterly stupid and make things way to predictable.

Title changes should be made when creative sees fit.
 
If the title doesnt change enough, you don't have new stars.
If it changes too much, we get hot potato worthless title syndrome.

John Cena has been a part of both, his year long reign made him hated by hardcore fans, but he also is a 10 time champion, probably the quickest to win 10 world titles ever.

You also may note, that 60% of the title reigns for the World belt are in the last 10 years, when the belts existed for around 55 years.

Bruno Sammartino held the belt for 7 years straight. Imagine that happening in today's environment? Hell, we see people hold it less than 7 days =p

I feel for today's age, a good champion can only last 5-6 months. If they hold it longer than that, they'll be stale. WWE suffers too much overexposure, soon the Raw Rewinds will be longer than Superstars all together. 18 PPV Defenses a year. The week long reigns are disappointing, I'm not going to bring up the Christian reign, but anytime someone runs with less than a month, it's a damn shame (Kane's first run was brought up for most of the decade before Chirstian.) Transitional champions, and gambles, I can see being a month run. The Miz run was a pretty good length, he had a couple more months before he became stale, but then again- why wait until he's stale to give him new dimensions as a chaser.

If Cena goes the entire year defending his title til WM, It's going to be noted as one of the most lack luster reigns ever, simply put - Telling the audience you're going to be champion for a whole year before even winning it as a Kayfabe super babyface is a ratings suicide. Cena draws, but even casual fans will be bored by him come Wrestlemiamia.

Orton needs to reinvent himself on Smackdown, and he could use a 4-5 month reign while he keeps growing his goatee, For some reason I see him having a hair vs hair match or something down the road. But back to the main subject, Orton is basically where Cena was a few years ago, and if he runs to long, he may end up getting boo's.
 
There shouldn't be a time limit on it. The short reigns have their place as much as the long reigns. They keep the anything can happen vibe going while the long reigns of course cement someone in the main event etc etc.

I think it depends on a mix of creative, the character, timing and then other variables like injuries suspensions and so forth.
 
If the title doesnt change enough, you don't have new stars.

Horseshit. Sorry to start the post that way, but I really couldn't think of a faster way of summerizing my opinion of that comment.

You're beginning on the very flawed premise that a major championship is the only way to "make" a star. It's just not. If you look at the 1980's, you will find that there were a grand total of 6 WWE Championship reigns, in that entire decade. By your logic, there were almost no stars during that time. According to WWE.com, there have been 103 WWE Championship reigns. Between April 29, 1963 and April 29, 1998, there were 38 WWE Championship reigns, grand total. That's an average of just over 1 title change per year. But since the title didn't changes hands often, that must mean that no new stars were ever made. (Damn, that is idiotic logic.) Since then, the WWE Championship has changed hands 65 times. That's just under 5 changes, per year, with an average title reign being just under 2 and a half months.

And, since someone is going to try to use the Intercontinental Championship to defend this guy's logic, let's just get that one out of the way right now. Since its inception on September 15, 1979, there have been 130 seperate championship reigns. On September 15, 1999, after 20 years, Jeff Jarrett was the Intercontinental Champion, in the 58th run in that title's history. That title has changed hands 72 times in 11 and a half years. That is an average of a new IC Champion every 1.9 months.

Look at the 1980s, and look at today. Which era will be remembered as having the greater stars? What I'm trying to say is that titles don't make wrestlers worthwhile. Wrestlers make titles worthwhile. Give a shit wresler a championship, and you don't raise that wrestler. You demean the championship. Or, do I need to mention Dolph Ziggler's 5 minute run with the Big Gold Belt? Seriously, what did that do for Ziggler?
 
I guess my wording wasn't quite correct with what I meant.
You can argue the 80's vs now, but I'd like to keep in the context that the snowball effect from having hot potitles going around can't be stopped by peppering in year long reigns right now, because it'll make a sense where there's only a few stars around. There will be just as many legends from the Attitude era as there were from the 80's, and when the Sport's entertainment (or PG) era ends, you'll probably be seeing a similar number, no matter how much the WWE titles are defamed.

Ps. If you wanted to make the IC title seem worthless, you should of picked the person who won the Title from Jarret in that reign.
 
Look at the 1980s, and look at today. Which era will be remembered as having the greater stars? What I'm trying to say is that titles don't make wrestlers worthwhile. Wrestlers make titles worthwhile. Give a shit wresler a championship, and you don't raise that wrestler. You demean the championship. Or, do I need to mention Dolph Ziggler's 5 minute run with the Big Gold Belt? Seriously, what did that do for Ziggler?

I agree with this ^^^

I'm cool with title changes I enjoy them more than year long runs, but I'd more than anything I'd like to see the WWE Belt change to a more classic style as that belt itself doesn't fit alot of the guys who've held it. Edge, Miz and Batista the lone exceptions to Cena, but titles don't make guys they just enhance them, but if the guy can't put on a basic match then no belt will make him a star unless it's the Hardcore title.

Either way belts never make a wrestler it's the wrestler that makes the belt worth while but the belt can make the wrestler look (visually) better than he is without a belt Miz being an example of this, he's a good worker but him having a belt enhances his image, but the belt doesn't make him a star.
 
I have always been a fan of longer title reigns for the top tier champion and shorter reigns for the undercard belts.

The World Champion is supposed to be the best in the business, the top of the food chain. I like to see them get on top and stay on top for atleast 4-6 months. In some cases even longer.

The lower titles like IC title and US title I like to see them hotshot the title back and forth some. I think having the IC title switch hands every other month and then have it switch like 2 or 3 RAW's in a row would be exciting.
 
I don't think there's a need for the world titles to change hands every (N) months,but personally I've always felt that the average champion does well with a 3-6 month reign.Of course,there are exceptions that can hold the title for a year and still look believable,and there are superstars that don't look believable as a champion.

It varies from superstar to superstar.Guys like Orton can hold the title for 4-6 months easy.They make a lengthy title reign look believable.Cena's an exception,he can hold it for a year and look credible(boring,but credible) but back when he was trading the title every month or two with Orton he looked just as strong.Miz had a 5 month reign where he won via underhanded ways,I thought it made a lot of sense for him to lose the title in a cage match where he had the odds stacked against him and had little to no way of pulling a win out of his ass.He can rock a 5 month reign but I don't think he'll look good as a 1-2 month champion.I like Christian,but he didn't look like a believable world champion worthy of a lengthy title reign with the likes of Orton breathing down his neck.I'm not justifying him holding the title for only 48 hours (or 5 days in kayfabe),but he didn't look like he had a chance of leaving Over The Limit with the belt anyway.
 
I don’t think there should be a specific time when the Title should change hands. I do however think Title matches should only take place on Pay Per Views. To be more specific, I think the WWE and World Titles should only be defended on PPVs. This keeps the WWE and World Title from switching at a maximum of 12 Title changes, or however many PPVs there are these days.

I’d have the Intercontinental and United States Titles defended on PPVs as well as Raw and Smackdown, making it a “Television” title to a certain extent. It’s been said that the IC and US Titles are never used, so let the Mid-Card Champs earn their checks and at the same time, add prestige to their secondary Straps.

I’d also like to see the WWE Tag Team and Divas Titles defended on PPVs, Raw, Smackdown, and Superstars. If you’re going to “hot potato” a Title, make it the lowest one on the WWE totem pole, the Tag Straps.
 
It really depends on who it is and what the situation is. I'll give you an example:

When The Miz became WWE Champion, everyone expected him to be champion for month at the most. But that would of been pretty pointless and he might as well not have won the title to start with. So what they needed to do Miz was give him a lengthy reign, allowing him to beat (cleanly or not) a lot of top tier guys during this run, to build him as a consistant main eventer like John Cena and Randy Orton currently are. Turns out he had a 5 month reign, beating Orton twice on PPV and Cena in the main event of WrestleMania. Thats a great run with the title, considering who he beat on the way.

Now someone like Cena doesn't need a lengthy reign anymore. When he did have his long run with title, he needed like much like The Miz did. He needed to establish himself as a top guy and by giving him the belt for 9 months at a time (infact he was champion for over a year at one time) and that worked wonders for his career. Plus, I think Cena is someone who needs the numbers more than anything else. The more title reigns he has, the better he looks. And therefore to get a higher number, the reigns themselves need to be shorter. And I suspect The Miz will be in a simular situation later in his career.

Basically my opinion is that when your trying to build someone up (like Miz), the title doesn't need to change hands for quite some time but with someone already established, not so much. Just pass it round.
 
I think the time-frame depends on who is involved in the title picture.

For instance, as has already been said, Randy Orton and John Cena can hold the title for long periods of time and never seem wrong. The reason being is that they are both built up to be relatively unstoppable in the ring. This can also go the other way in that any other wrestler holding one of the World Titles can have a 2-day reign if John Cena or Randy Orton is their immediate challenger. Others have been "unstoppable", but never in the way that the top guy gets to be. The best way to put it, I think, is this. The top face is always the "irresistible force" and the big heel of the hour is the "immovable object". Unstoppable in their own ways, but when they clash, Hogan always seems to come out looking bigger and better.

They are different from guys like Kane and Big Show, in that neither Kane nor Big Show has been built as "unstoppable" in years. Kane was, in his debut and for quite some time after, very believable as someone who could have been unstoppable and a great heel champion, but they pulled a Christian there and we never really got to see how good a champion he could be until this past year. He was good enough last year when he was past his prime so he definitely had potential to be amazing in his earlier days. But, because it was Austin who beat him (who as the top guy of the top also had to be unstoppable in his own right) it wasn't unbelievable that Kane lost the title. At the same time, though, we've seen Kane lose to much smaller guys, clean, many times during the Attitude era and more recently. The only reason Kane still exists after losses to little guys is his staying power. He was the first character of his kind and has stuck in our minds ever since. Same goes for Big Show.

I honestly can't remember the last time Big Show was built as truly unstoppable. I think it has something to do with his more current persona tainting his debut, when he seemed much more menacing than he is. I will say though that his most recent top title reigns were ended by Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley, respectively. Brock was a much more unstoppable force than Big Show ever was, and Lashley was destined to be Brock 2.0, I think. You might also say Undertaker &/or Edge in certain instances.

I personally believe that at this point in time Big Zeke or Mason Ryan could go either way. Both are dominant forces and have never been portrayed as anything otherwise. However, all it takes is one clean loss to Rey Mysterio to Mordecai you out of existence. I believe there is still a far bit of disbelief in most longtime wrestling fans that a smart wrestler like Mysterio (which is what we've been taught that anybody, regardless of their name or whether the are face/heel, has to be to win the top belts, usually) can't find a way to topple a bigger wrestler believably moreso than a new-age Hogan.

I could see Rey Mysterio cleanly beating Mason Ryan with the title on the line before I could see him beating John Cena, it's just how I've been conditioned as a fan since 2005. In classic terms, I could see Bret destroy Yokozuna before I would ever see him go clean over Hogan. This could also have a lot to do with the heel/face factor. Mysterio, as a face, seems more likely to triumph over Ryan, as a heel, in a David/Goliath sense than he does to defeat another (arguably bigger face) in John Cena.

Back on track, I think Orton and Cena, as faces of the brands, are currently alone in being people who can both have a lengthy title reign and end someone else's reign rather quickly as well. In the days of old, I think people who were legitimately believable as being able to do the same would be Hogan, Austin, Rock, Triple H, Lesnar, Batista and, had he stayed around, eventually Bobby Lashley. They were all just as believable as year-long champions or ruiners of title reigns for others at just about any point in their main event careers. I would like for newer stars to step into this category, but until they actually do, it's insanely hard to say who it could be. Look back to 2003 when Orton and Cena were new - nobody could have guessed that they would go where they did. That's why it's hard to say whether it would be Miz, Morrison, Ziggler, Rhodes, etc. who will eventually be that Hogan-esque guy.

Then there's the other side of things. If you're going to end a title reign extremely prematurely then you have 4 options - Orton, Cena, a top/future top heel cheating in a big way or a multiple man match where the champion is ganged up on. Nobody is going to believe that a main event superstar (regardless of who they are, at this point) is going to lose their recently-won title in a relatively clean match unless it's to Orton or Cena. They just always seem to come through when it comes to size-disadvantage.

Furthermore, when it comes to guys like Dolph Ziggler, Christian and those similar, I find that a month-
long reign is not a detrimental thing in any way. As long as it is played correctly, it can be very beneficial to any character to hold the top title as a transitional champion the first time, just to see if they can garner the support of the fans (without a huge controversy, which I believe is the only reason everybody is saying they wanted Christian to hold the title forever - he was good enough for a month or two, but after that I would have been fine with him not holding the title to give someone else a rub).

This is why I wish Ziggler had won the title at Royal Rumble with interference from Vickie or not at all. His 11 minutes didn't do anything for anybody, and Edge needed neither the extra reign nor a win to increase his believability. He could have easily lost it the next month at Elimination Chamber to Edge. It would have culminated in Edge getting the extra reign anyway and could have possibly made it seem to fans that if he could lose to Ziggler in January, he could lose to Del Rio as well. I also wish Christian had been placed in a feud with someone like CM Punk (who should have been drafted, to keep top heels in balance on SmackDown!) who he could have dropped the title to at the end of a month or two. After that point, Punk/Orton could have gone right to Summerslam and would have been great, I think.

All that said, I prefer when a champion has 3-5 months to flesh out a title reign and tend to hope that (unless they've done a spectacular job as champion - which I believe Miz was closest to recently) by the 6th month, we are at a Big 4 PPV where there can be a big title switch (or any event, really, but WM, SummerSlam, Survivor Series & The Rumble always seem like a better place to switch a top title, just IMO - no real reason behind it.) My favourite example of why this is the perfect time-frame is CM Punk's post-Jeff Hardy World Title reign. He was at the top of his game and was the greatest thing in wrestling for that short period where he was able to gloat about having removed Jeff Hardy (someone every kid loved) from the company. He did everything he needed to do to increase his credibility before he lost it to the Undertaker and never looked out of place doing it.
 
I honestly don't know how long title reigns should be. If its too short, the reign is pointless (i.e what happened to Christian) but if its too long it becomes boring. Take for example Cena, he may draw like crazy but him having the title for 1year or more is insane. Maybe a 5 months reign like they did with Miz is a good choice, but it depends on the wrestler holding it
 
I can't stand monster reigns. Hated Triple H's monster reign, JBL's monster reign, Cena's monster reign, Batistia's monster reign. It's just stangnant and boring. Everytime they're over you feel like a new breeze of fresh air against your hair. It such an exciting time on RAW around no mercy 07 when cena got injured and had to surrender his title, only for Orton to have a huge reign into the fall and winter. Man!

In my opinion title reigns should last about a solid 2-4 months. Have at least 2 successful PPV defenses. I never like the format of a champion reigning for months and months defeating every new up-and-comer. Whatever happened to making it very difficult for a face to get the title, and have people on the edge of their seats in suspension until they get that title? Who knows how long the WWE could have kept the title on Batista and Cena if they didn't get injured.

Nowadays the reigns are OK. The titles seemed to switch often around late 09 but has cooled down since then. I'm just not a huge fan of monster reigns to put over talent and in turn making them credible/stronger. Just don't like it, especially when half the time the heels aren't clean pins. As for short reigns, I like it when necessary depending on the superstar -- but it has to be a rare thing from time to time that way the title obviously doesn't lose its value
 
In my opinion title reigns should last about a solid 2-4 months. Have at least 2 successful PPV defenses. I never like the format of a champion reigning for months and months defeating every new up-and-comer.

Nev, and then people complain it will become too predictable. Besides you need the talent to do this or else someone is going to pass Rick Flair's record real quick. I guess there is no simple solution.
 
alright so basically i want to give you some stats
in 2009
wwe champions included- hardy, edge, triple h ,randy, batista, randy, cena, randy, cena , sheamus

a total of 10 reigns- at an average of wwe title changing every 1.2 months

whc champions include- cena, edge, cena, edge, hardy, punk, hardy, punk, taker at an average of 1.5 months.

I think the list you provided is because of fueds. when you have randy fueding with cena, or batista, the title changes to keep the fued relevant. When you have cena fueding with edge, or hardy fueding with punk, its the same thing. I think that it needs to change whenever the storyline is getting too stale. That means it depends on how well the fued is going. So I think that it's fine. The Miz held it for a while but it worked because he was fueding with cena and then rock. i dont see a problem either way unless the story around the title sucks.
 
I think here again lies the problem having both the wwe and whc belts - there has to be several changes in a small period of time as loads of wrestlers get a push into the main event Sheamus for instance - the knock on effect having two main titles devalues the ic and us title so there are going to be lots of changes over a short period of time.
If you recall during the attitude era the main title went back and forth between the rock austin and Triple H .But again the writing was superb and we had great storylines. So in my opinion improve the writing, amalagamate the two main titles and you will get better and more worthy titles runs and feuds.
 
I think the list you provided is because of fueds. when you have randy fueding with cena, or batista, the title changes to keep the fued relevant. When you have cena fueding with edge, or hardy fueding with punk, its the same thing. I think that it needs to change whenever the storyline is getting too stale. That means it depends on how well the fued is going. So I think that it's fine. The Miz held it for a while but it worked because he was fueding with cena and then rock. i dont see a problem either way unless the story around the title sucks.

While I will agree with you on Cena/Orton and Orton/Batista feuds being notoriously bland if they go on any longer than a month or two, I feel like there is no excuse for comparing Cena/Edge or Hardy/Punk to the above.

As much as I love Orton, he and Cena cannot feud. It always looked decent on paper, but it just never works out right. It was fun for a bit in 2007 but I don't think it's one of those feuds that will ever be great. Unfortunately, the two guys who are supposed to be the faces of the company right now may never be as charismatic when at odds with each other as Austin and The Rock were. Orton and Batista may fall under the same category - it should work, seemed like it would, but didn't.

As far as Cena/Edge, I have to say that it was always good when those two were feuding. The feud they had in 2009 wasn't as good as the first time but it was nowhere near as bad as some of the "top feuds" we've seen in recent years. That said, the booking was stupid. Edge winning the title at Elimination Chamber was logical - he was a heel and the "Ultimate Opportunist" so the way he forced himself in was perfect. What I find stupid, though, is the need for Cena to win at Wrestlemania only to lose the title again a month later. He had already lost clean to Orton the year before, so it wasn't like he had never lost at 'Mania before; Cena could have given Big Show the FU and walked into a spear so that Edge could pin Show for the win and retain the title. Every other evenT that occurred still could have happened. The Last Man Standing at Backlash could have been booked exactly the same - Show interferes and costs Cena the match because Cena was the reason he lost at 'Mania. Except Edge would have walked in and out of both events as champion. That removes two, utterly useless, title reigns from existence. To say that this feud was bland seems uneducated. It was a quality feud which, as I said, was to be expected from Edge and Cena. There was no necessity to have the title change three times between February and April.

That brings me to the next time the title changed. At Extreme Rules of the same year, Jeff Hardy beat Edge for that same World Title (so that's the fourth title change in 4 months) and immediately (well, 3 minutes later) loses it to CM Punk. I have written articles before about how Jeff and Edge should have main-evented WM instead of Show/Cena/Edge, but things happened how they did and that can't be changed. Jeff and Edge was, for the short time it happened a great feud (the history there is great), but that's not what I'm talking about. Jeff Hardy and CM Punk had, in my opinion, one of the best title feuds in that entire decade. It was incredible and cemented CM Punk (although a former Heavyweight Champion) as a true main event player. To say that the title needed to change four times between June and August is again, ridiculous. Nothing about this feud was stale. Jeff should not have won at Night of Champions, Punk should have held on to the title the entire time.

Between February and August of 2009, there were 7 title changes between 4 guys. There should really have only been 3. The feuds were good enough that it didn't need to change so often.
 
I think this has become the norm now because every PPV has WHC and WWE Title Matches on their cards. With so many more World Title matches, the title must change more frequently to prevent reigns becoming stale.
 
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