Championship Region, Sixth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (5) Andre the Giant

[shattered dreams]

Read my first post. I noted that there was no shame in losing to the Rock. Here, I'll post it for you:

Did you read your second post? Doubtful, thanks for proving my comment about the literacy rate amongst your type. Cena has been in the WWE for around 11 years. You named a variety of losses Cena has and made excuses for them. Name that many losses that Andre took during the first 11 years of his career. For bonus points only include matches that occurred in the country this match does.

 

[steve_smith]

If Cena was around back in the 80s and 90s he would have been just an upper midcarder. There is really not much to him in my opinion. The WWE just forces him down our throats. Hasn't wrestling been in a steady decline since Cena became the face of wrestling?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but....

Attendance - down
tv ratings - down
ppv buyrates (with Rock headlining the exception) - down

John Cena is the best out there today but that's not saying much..... wrestling is down with Cena as the face. It could be argued that even today Andre the Giant is more known than John Cena.


Does anyone actually think that Cena would be Super Cena if he was in Rock, Austin, Hogan's era? Not a chance. It would be a travesty if Cena wins this tournament. He has actually lost a match to the Miz. Andre, in his prime, would eat the Miz whole and shit him out in pieces.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I'm going with Cena, and no, I'm not at all a John Cena fanboy, in fact I don't like the character at all, but facts are facts and I need to be objective.

Both the Great Khali and Umaga were billed as unstoppable monsters, undefeated monsters, much like the way André was billed. He was build like an unstoppable force....until Hogan arrived. My point with Khali and Umaga is that they were like this, until Cena entered the picture.

John Cena is a powerhouse, there is no proof (and there isn't going to be) that Cena can or can't lift André over his shoulders and make his AA, however history has showed us that Cena has lift two men, one being a super heavyweight, Cena has lift a giant and has applied the AA. We also have seen Cena take unbelievable amounts of pain and come back (hulk up if you will).
With those examples what I'm saying is that Cena has basically done the impossible time and time again. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does it again with André.

After an excruciating battle, many AA attempts, probably a couple of STFs too, Cena would do (once again the unthinkable) and pin André the Giant.

 

[JJYanks121]

This is an easy one. Andre never should have made it this far and he's going down now.

The thing that people who are obsessed with "old school is always better" will ignore is that Andre's role in wrestling was quite simple. He'd go around the world and fight mediocre guys to look amazing but then the biggest guy of the territory would come along and give him a fight. Often times, Andre lost that fight. That was his purpose and the thing of it was, every territory could book him the same way and pretend he was unbeatable until their big guy beat him. Why? There was no internet back then so no one would know that he had just been beaten in another territory.

John Cena would clearly be the top guy in a territory and he'd clearly be the one to beat an Andre. Heck, John Cena beat Harley Race who, if I remember correctly, the same people who are arguing Andre now used the fact that Harley slammed and beat Andre as reason Cena should lose! So if Harley is better than Andre and Cena beat Harley, then Andre should beat Cena? Try re-learning the transitive property in 7th grade guys.

Cena wins this easily.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I don't know how you follow Yanks argument. Seriously, did anyone follow what the hell he was saying?

Kayfabe
Look at the two men and watch them compete. Andre is as big and strong as anyone ever stepped foot in the ring. Even if Cena could AA Andre no one has even begun to mention the pain Andre could inflict on Cena. Andre's grip alone could crush people. While it is going to take a powerful guy to beat Andre, Cena does not show the combination of power and technical ability to break out of the holds Andre could apply.

Championships
Cena takes this category easily however he exists in a different time period and this match isn't for the championship of anything.

Comparable Talent
The last six years of the Big Show and early Khali are hardly comparable to Andre. Early WCW Show (aka The Giant) would make far more sense. Andre is that unique. Khali wasn't convincing much of anyone back then. I can't believe people are using that argument now. Andre beat Cenas left and right and sometimes more than once a night. Granted, the guys he faced didn't have the WWE machine behind them but there is no doubt Andre could beat anyone as long as there wasn't a snake at or near ringside.

Damage
Clearly in Cena's favor although I would like to think that Flair's damage to Cena's legs has meaning. Overall though this rule damages the tournament. The damage idea is exponential. It helps the least damaged guy easily make it from the fifth round to the finals. Plus, this is wrestling. How many times has the guy who goes in hurt finds a way to win? Would the Karate Kid have been such a classic if Billy Zabka took the leg injury and Ralph Macchio finished him off?

Cena's Running Storyline
He takes a beating over a time period and then overcomes the odds or get his redemption. There is no time for redemption here. The redemption can comes later after Cena has time to make Cena-faces and long speeches. This is a one night tourney without much backstory. Not exactly a classic Cena tale.

Legacy
Andre is the reason Cena can talk about how important WM main events are. Cena's part of the legacy but not part of his genesis and ascent. Andre is also the genesis of the WWE Hall of Fame ceremony that Cena sits through each year and gets booed at.

Main Stream Media
Fezzik, end of discussion, don't try to counter, next topic.

Fans
Pre-86 Andre was beloved by most and awed by all. Just pick a thread here at random and you're likely to get a good idea what some think of Cena.

Booking
If you are booking this match and have Hogan on the horizon, do you book Hogan to face the guy who has been the top guy watch ratings dip and stagnate or the guy who faced Hogan that was supposedly watched by 30m Americans?

I know this over, it's the nature of the beast that doesn't give folks enough time to make arguments before the polls fly open. But if there are any voters undecided out there, I strongly ask you to consider Andre or at least learn something about his history before you just vote Cena cuz he took less damage and he AA'd Big Show.

Dre Day Mutha Fucka!

 

[Papa Pillman]

Booking
If you are booking this match and have Hogan on the horizon, do you book Hogan to face the guy who has been the top guy watch ratings dip and stagnate or the guy who faced Hogan that was supposedly watched by 30m Americans?

Couldn't I just as easily make the case that If you are booking this match and have Hogan on the horizon...

Do you book Hogan to face a guy in a match that everyone has already seen(I know Andre wasn't in his prime) and just expect Hogan would win or the guy who is considered this generation's version of himself in a super bout to determine the company's top family-friendly "megaface" of all time??

It's still a matter of perspective.

 

[klunderbunker]

Something occurs to me:

We're talking about physical primes here. Andre was a shell of his former self at Wrestlemania 3 when he weighed 525. His prime was in the late 70s and early 80s when he weighed about 440. Cena has EASILY FU'd people who weigh more than that. The AA is not only in play here, but it's something we've seen Cena do against much bigger opponents.

Cena wins and does so more easily than I thought at first.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Cena definitely gets this one.

Cena is still in good shape after squashing Flair, whereas Andre just beat Trips in a long lasting match, taking much damage. Andre will be exhausted entering the match with a fresh Cena, which can hold him back, as Cena will have a tired giant to face off with.

Cena has beat giants like The Big Show before. This experience could play a factor in the match with Andre.

Cena has only lost championship matches when the opponent cheated, or if it was a gimmick match. This isn't a gimmick match, and based on his title win-loss record, he can beat Andre, who lost a championship match at Wrestlemania 3 to a mainstream baby-face comparable to John Cena; Hulk Hogan, who was out of it when he body-slammed Andre, but in this case you have the fresh Cena, who has given Attitude Adjustments to giants like The Great Khali. All Cena will have to do is work on Andre for about 10-15 minutes, and then go for the AA.

The only thing Andre gets, is the crowd behind him. But considering Cena has 3 advantages, the chances are higher within Cenation.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Couldn't I just as easily make the case that If you are booking this match and have Hogan on the horizon...

Do you book Hogan to face a guy in a match that everyone has already seen(I know Andre wasn't in his prime) and just expect Hogan would win or the guy who is considered this generation's version of himself in a super bout to determine the company's top family-friendly "megaface" of all time??

It's still a matter of perspective.

No, it's a matter of eyes and money. Andre/Hogan is a proven huge draw. Cena/Hogan needs to be explained to most people, "Who is John Cena?". He may be the biggest full time star in WWE but his name recognition is nothing compared to Hogan, Andre, The Rock, and maybe Austin. It's a long drawn out story that needs weeks to promote and advance. Andre/Hogan is guaranteed dollars and you should milk for all it's worth if you have a chance.

Something occurs to me:

We're talking about physical primes here. Andre was a shell of his former self at Wrestlemania 3 when he weighed 525. His prime was in the late 70s and early 80s when he weighed about 440. Cena has EASILY FU'd people who weigh more than that. The AA is not only in play here, but it's something we've seen Cena do against much bigger opponents.

Cena wins and does so more easily than I thought at first.

Not only is the AA in play but so is Andre's ability to pick Cena up over his head and throw him in to the fifth row. But no one needs to mention that. Cena is a guy that needed a chain to beat Lesnar last year and duct tape to beat Batista not long ago, is that kind of offense that typically wins in the semi's of this tournament over crowd pleasing giants?

 

[El Rev sXe]

You make good/interesting points GSB but this one is insane:

Cena's Running Storyline
He takes a beating over a time period and then overcomes the odds or get his redemption. There is no time for redemption here. The redemption can comes later after Cena has time to make Cena-faces and long speeches. This is a one night tourney without much backstory. Not exactly a classic Cena tale

We have seen it, it's true against Rock and Punk recently. But there were times when Cena lost his "redemption matches", see against Orton at No Way Out 2008, vs Edge LMS match Backlash 2008 for example.

On the other hand there are matches where Cena WON at his "first attempt": WM XX against Big Show, WM 21 against JBL, WM 22 against HHH, WM 23 against HBK, New Year's Revolution 2007 against Umaga, Judgement Day 2007 against The Great Khali, Summerslam 2007 against Randy Orton, Survivor Series 2008 against Jericho and those my friend are pretty big matches much like this one.

 

[shattered dreams]

Something occurs to me:

We're talking about physical primes here. Andre was a shell of his former self at Wrestlemania 3 when he weighed 525. His prime was in the late 70s and early 80s when he weighed about 440. Cena has EASILY FU'd people who weigh more than that. The AA is not only in play here, but it's something we've seen Cena do against much bigger opponents.

Cena wins and does so more easily than I thought at first.

In his physical prime why do you think Andre would lose just because Cena could do his finisher? If CM Punk can kick out of it then Andre sure as shit will be able to.

Often times, Andre lost that fight.

Care to provide some examples of this lunacy?

 

[Papa Pillman]

In his physical prime why do you think Andre would lose just because Cena could do his finisher? If CM Punk can kick out of it then Andre sure as shit will be able to.

I think that the difference would be that Punk is a smallish guy whose is used to taking alot of big punishment in matches. He gets picked up and slammed around by larger men regularly. As such, he has that just "on instinct" ability to kick out of something like an AA.

Andre on the other hand does not get thrown around by anyone. At most he would be bodyslammed. For someone to be able to lift him in a fireman's carry and slam him down to the mat could be devastating, combine that with the fact that he has already had a tough previous match and it's not a stretch to think an AA would be enough to finish him.

 

[JJYanks121]

Care to provide some examples of this lunacy?

I'd be happy to. Andre lost to Canek who was the top draw in Mexico. He also lost to Antonio Inoki who submitted him in Japan. And of course, he lost to Hogan.

What all 3 of these scenarios have in common is that Andre went to the territory, was built up as "unbeatable" and then was beaten by the top guy. Canek and Hogan pinned him while Inoki submitted him so either way to beat him is in play. The point is, Andre is the guy that is built up to lose to the top face. Cena is unquestionably the top face of the last decade. Andre's been built up (too much in my opinion) and now he draws one of the top faces of all time. He loses here and handily.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I think that the difference would be that Punk is a smallish guy whose is used to taking alot of big punishment in matches. He gets picked up and slammed around by larger men regularly. As such, he has that just "on instinct" ability to kick out of something like an AA.

Andre on the other hand does not get thrown around by anyone. At most he would be bodyslammed. For someone to be able to lift him in a fireman's carry and slam him down to the mat could be devastating, combine that with the fact that he has already had a tough previous match and it's not a stretch to think an AA would be enough to finish him.

Silliest argument yet. Go to YouTube, there is a match from 1980 with a heel Hogan with Blassie against Andre. At about 3 minutes Hogan slams Andre. Andre takes it like most everyone else with the exception that after taking a boot to the head, Andre pops up and gives Hogan a slam of his own.

But since you made the argument how about this?

Andre delivers vicious head butts. His melon was enormous and he used it regularly as a weapon. Most of Cena's WWE has been post-Benoit Chris Nowinski limited head contact. How does Cena react when Andre slaps him with his skull?

Just for laughs, what happens to Cena when Andre drops all his weight on his chest? Wouldn't Cena find this devastating since it's the kind of stuff he's not used to!

I'd be happy to. Andre lost to Canek who was the top draw in Mexico. He also lost to Antonio Inoki who submitted him in Japan. And of course, he lost to Hogan.

Andre can lose, this has been established.

What all 3 of these scenarios have in common is that Andre went to the territory,

Last I checked this is not in a "territory"

was built up as "unbeatable"

There is a one night tournament and there is no time to build Andre up as anything, especially unbeatable when it has been established that he has been beaten repeatedly.

Don't you remember your previous paragraph?

and then was beaten by the top guy.

I'm sorry, wasn't Hogan, Sammartino, Thesz, Austin, and The Rock in this tournament? How is Cena the top guy? Is whose mind is Cena the top guy in this tournament?

Canek and Hogan pinned him while Inoki submitted him so either way to beat him is in play.

I'll give you a chance to list all of Cena's losses. Go ahead, shouldn't take more than a couple hours. Wait, I'll save you a couple of seconds and give you a name: Tensai!

The point is, Andre is the guy that is built up to lose to the top face.

So you should vote for him to make it to Hogan or Sammartino in the finals.

Cena is unquestionably the top face of the last decade.

This will make a great story when we have only the top faces of the last decade tournament.

Andre's been built up (too much in my opinion) and now he draws one of the top faces of all time.

Which goes completely against your storyline above.

He loses here and handily.

Based on the look of the poll, finally you say something true. A bunch of people who can't put together a competent argument against a guy they never really saw or know much about beyond WM 3 will lose to the guy that once fell off a turnbuckle and went through a table to lose a championship.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Cena is a guy that needed a chain to beat Lesnar last year and duct tape to beat Batista not long ago, is that kind of offense that typically wins in the semi's of this tournament over crowd pleasing giants?

Bearing in mind that these were No DQ matches, everything Cena did was legal. He already beat Batista cleanly 1 month before the duck-tape scenario which was at Wrestlemania 26. As far the match with Brock goes; it was an anything goes match, and Brock's offence during the match involved strategies that would usually be illegal in a match with the basic rules (consecutive strikes in the corner, use of the steel steps, attacking the referee, etc). Had it been a normal match, the events of it could have been different, considering there would be no weapons. Anyway, the month before the match with Brock, Cena faced the biggest loss of his life against The Rock. That also played a factor in this match, as he even stated, it ruined him.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Bearing in mind that these were No DQ matches, everything Cena did was legal. He already beat Batista cleanly 1 month before the duck-tape scenario which was at Wrestlemania 26. As far the match with Brock goes; it was an anything goes match, and Brock's offence during the match involved strategies that would usually be illegal in a match with the basic rules (consecutive strikes in the corner, use of the steel steps, attacking the referee, etc). Had it been a normal match, the events of it could have been different, considering there would be no weapons. Anyway, the month before the match with Brock, Cena faced the biggest loss of his life against The Rock. That also played a factor in this match, as he even stated, it ruined him.

You're point about Cena losing to Rock is a good one. It shows there is history to back up that Cena will lose an initial match with a legend on a huge stage. Kind of like he lost to The Miz the year before (except the legend part). Thanks for the support! When are you going to ask KB to change your vote to Andre?

 

[shattered dreams]

I'd be happy to. Andre lost to Canek who was the top draw in Mexico. He also lost to Antonio Inoki who submitted him in Japan. And of course, he lost to Hogan.

What all 3 of these scenarios have in common is that Andre went to the territory, was built up as "unbeatable" and then was beaten by the top guy. Canek and Hogan pinned him while Inoki submitted him so either way to beat him is in play. The point is, Andre is the guy that is built up to lose to the top face. Cena is unquestionably the top face of the last decade. Andre's been built up (too much in my opinion) and now he draws one of the top faces of all time. He loses here and handily.

You said often. You named three times, the only one of which that occured in US was when Andre was 41 years old and facing the greatest wrestler of all-time who was 17 years younger than Andre at the time. This match is in a place where Cena was just predominantly booed by 90 thousand, spare me the babyface nonsense. 3 times in 14 years is not often. If three times is often then Cena always loses to midcarders. When did Cena even face the top guys in Japan or Mexico?

 

[Cereal Killer]

You're point about Cena losing to Rock is a good one. It shows there is history to back up that Cena will lose an initial match with a legend on a huge stage. Kind of like he lost to The Miz the year before (except the legend part). Thanks for the support! When are you going to ask KB to change your vote to Andre?

Cena only lost to Rock because of getting a little cocky towards the end, in which he wasted time. He said he won't make that mistake again in the legends Q&A segment. That was one of Cena's most personal matches in his whole career, so overpowering his opponent caused him to get a little cocky, and as a result, he lost. This isn't a personal match.

As far as the Miz goes, The Rock got involved, Rock Bottomed Cena, The Miz took the advantage. The Miz then lost his title to Cena at Extreme Rules, and faced other losses to him on episodes of RAW.

If your going to say that Cena loses in the original match somehow (even though it's because the opponent cheats), what about the fact that Andre is hurt after his battle with Trips, and that Cena has beaten the Big Show and Khali a few times?

EDIT: Even if I did change my mind, and request a vote change, Cena would still win. The votes are at 66-20 and there are 2 days left.

 

[Tastycles]

Here we go, I've spent a while deliberating on this and it's still a tough one. I haven't decided which way I'll vote yet, but will have by the time I finish writing this.

I think one point that needs to be remembered about Andre the Giant that does not sit well with us both as wrestling fans and modern humans is that Andre the Giant was booked as a freak show for a large part of his career. He wrestled handicap matches, he wrestled battle royales, he seldomly wrestled against the biggest names of his day.

When Superstar Billy Graham was World Champion, Andre never fought him despite the fact Graham was a heel. He also never fought Bob Backlund or Bruno Sammartino, though perhaps that is to be expected as they were faces. The WWWF used Andre as someone you wanted to go and see in real life, because of his size. Although WWWF was hardly producing television week in week out, when they did, they often ignored Andre - he featured on television 14 times between 1975-1979 inclusive. By way of comparison, Stan Stasiak, a world champion, but hardly a household name appeared 26 times in that period.

But then again, does this not really show Andre's appeal? He wasn't booked particularly strongly, or particularly well exposed to the public, yet he became one of wrestling's greatest live attractions ever.

I think if you're talking kayfabe, they both have the tools to win, and have both beaten and lost to reasonably similar wrestlers in the past. Andre is tarnished with his later physical condition, but I think this is a bit of a nonsense - he was still able to give Hulk Hogan a run for his money.

It's hard, and I think in most scenarios, Cena would probably be booked to go over, however I think that given the fact I never really cut Andre any slack when I should and given the fact he's well and truly lost this as if it were a foregone conclusion, I'm going with Andre.