C.M. Punk: Failure or Slow Starter

[TheOneBigWill]

Okay, of course I'm gonna take some undo "This is only because you don't like him" heat. But let's be real, C.M. Punk has become a "Grand Slam" Champion, and out of the titles he's won.. he's made exactly how many of those reigns mean something? One. Barely.

So let's recap.

E.C.W. Championship: C.M. Punk was all set to take on Chris Benoit for the Championship at Night of Champions, however due to the real life issue with Benoit, Johnny Nitro (later renamed to John Morrison) replaced and defeated Punk.

For the next few months, it was actually John Morrison defeating C.M. Punk on a monthly basis, before Punk finally won against Morrison, on a regular E.C.W. broadcast, after it was discovered that Morrison had broken the Wellness Policy. Connection?? Possibly.

Punk went on to defend his Championship against the likes of Eljiah Burke, Big Daddy V, The Miz & John Morrison, only to lose the title to Chavo Guerrero. I repeat, Chavo.. Guerrero.

World Heavyweight Championship: Following his E.C.W. title run, he won Money in the Bank. From there, he went on quite a bit of a losing streak as he first really began getting questioned as being worthy of taking that next step.

On June 30th, C.M. Punk cashed in his MITB opportunity against Edge, who'd just been beaten down and left for dead by Batista. One GTS later, and we crowned a new Champion.

From this step, several people (including your's truly) questioned how Punk could ever be believed as a Heavyweight Champion on the flagship show, surrounded by the likes of Cena, Batista, Shawn Michaels and others. He went on to defeat his title in flukish fashion (ie. retaining through count-outs, and DQ's, or just no contests in general) against the likes of Kane and Batista. The only true individual he ever defeated cleanly, was J.B.L.

At Unforgiven, just moments before he was scheduled to be in the Scramble match, Randy Orton punted him in the head and he was taken out. Affectively costing him his Championship, as Chris Jericho later won it that night. From that moment, Punk had a Steel Cage rematch, but ended up losing it as well.

Tag Team Championship w/ Kofi Kingston: The pairing of Punk & Kingston up-set and shocked the team of Priceless (Rhodes & DiBiase) as they won the Tag Team Championships on a random Raw at the end of October. A mere 47 days later, they would drop the titles to John Morrison & The Miz in a house show in Canada.

They didn't even have one memorable feud.

Intercontinental Championship: While C.M. Punk shined in the #1 contender's tournament to crown him the next challenger, the actual title match (or rather matches, as he had to have 3+ to finally win the title) was less than memorable.

Punk defeated William Regal, who had defeated Punk the previous year to crown himself King of the Ring. After this, Punk went on to randomly feud with Regal on episodes of Raw, which in reality noone seemed to care for.

Punk was instantly being thought of as the next possible "savior" for the Intercontinental division, dispite never defending the title on any Pay per view since winning it, and only being remembered for defeating Regal. And with this previous episode of Raw, a mere 49 days later from becoming Intercontinental Champion, all of that seems to have been flushed down the drain.

So I ask you.. is C.M. Punk just an overall Failure as a Champion, regardless of what title it is? Or is he just a really, really slow starter? If this is the face of what could be our future for Professional Wrestling, someone needs to post one hell of an argument outside of "It's the way he's booked", because booking or not.. he's being destroyed as a credible Champion, overall.

What are everyone's thoughts and opinions on this issue? Is Punk a failure as a Champion? If so, why do you think that way? If you believe he's not a failure, make sure to explain why yout think that as well.

 

[ThePeoplesChampion]

Like i said before in a previos thread.....Cm Punk reminds me of a younger Randy Orton....remember Randy Orton won the world title only to lose it to hhh a month later.....then from then it almost seemed like he was demoted...sure he had a match wit taker and teamed wit edge but it still took him a year or so to really get back to main event and title status....now cm punk has falling a lil more than orton did.....but the guy is a hell of a talent give him some time and he'll be up there....i dont see them pulling a kane on cm punk.....but as for now i dont think we can judge him just yet he is still very early in his career....but if i had to say so no.....i mean i dont see anyone calling kane a faliure as a champ and he only held it once and for one day too.

 

[Showtime]

I don't really understand why they dropped the title off him so fast, other than the idea that JBL wants to have one last hurrah at Wrestlemania with gold. Maybe WWE has plans for Punk to win MITB as I see him as a favourite to win again. The problem isn't CM Punk, the problem is the WWE doesn't seem to know what they want to do with the IC title.

Last year around this time Jeff had it and was alright as champion until he got suspended. Jericho then took it as he was feuding with Jeff and help it for a while, but never defended it. Then they put it on a freshly faced new talent, who dropped it in the middle of a reasonable run to the great Santino. Say what you will about Santino, but the Honk-a-Meter was an awesome skit and Santino drew massive heat with the belt. But then the WWE decided that before even being half way through what should have been the natural course of the skit, Santino drops it on Regal in his home country. This is done to get it on WWE's hope for saving the middle card, CM Punk, because everyone bitched and complained about no real wrestling happening in the middle card so they put it on workhorse Punk. Unfortunately though, since WWE has built no rivalries or natural feuds or storylines for the IC title or even Punk for that matter (seriously, who has he strongly feuded with lately?). So off course, he never defended the belt, his run was flat and JBL came a knocking to have one last title run.

So what will happen with CM and the IC title? Well, JBL will most likely lose it a Wrestlemania. Word going around is he'll probably lose it to Mysterio, but that doesn't mean Punk can't get it back. Imagine if Punk wins MITB (or doesn't, but I like it better if he does) and challenger Rey for the IC title and puts up his MITB. REy then wins and gets both and, yes, sets up a Punk heel turn. WWE is desperate for heels, even though it has 3 of the best in Orton, Edge, and Jericho, below that is rather thin, especially with JBL maybe retiring and Edge and Jericho being considered for face turns. Punk is still very over with the fans, but I don't see him getting too much more popular, he seems stalled at the moment with progressing his character and connection with the fans. A heel turn where he gets frustrated over losing MITB lashes out on Rey and then wins the IC back would be good for his part and then give him a lengthy long run with the belt. Rey I think would work much better as MITB holder than any of the people in it already and Punk really should keep with the IC belt, they just need to have him promote it and defend it.

So to answer your question, I'd say slow starter and far from failure. Punk is over with the fans, but never to what the WWE expects him or wants him to be. The WWE seems very unsure on how to use him and push him and thus have pretty much second guessed themselves on everything they did with him. WWE needs to tone down a little on the shock title changes and start giving us a long and meaningful one again. I know as I say this, Shelton has actually had a very long US title reign on SD, but that has somehow slipped under the radar by WWE not pushing the belt, Shelton, or giving him someone other than R-Truth and Helms to beat and losing loads of non-title matches. Going on a mini rant here, but non-title matches are stupid as they just make the champion look so weak cause there almost a guaranteed loss for them and WWE uses so many. Anyway, to sum up a long post, not a failure, the best is still yet to come and I for one can hardly wait.

 

[Mark0820]

No, CM Punk isn't a failure. He can't help how he's booked. He's solid on the mic and in the ring. The fans are behind him all the way. If he's booked to be a weak champion that's how he's booked. You can make any champion look strong. The thing with Punk is they've booked him poorly and he is still massively over. He's easily in the top 5 for faces in the company right now. The only faces I'd say are more over are HHH, Batista, Cena and Rey. Possibly HBK as well. They booked him weak and in the casual fans eyes he's still strong. That's not a failure, that's a huge success.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

I don't think it's fair to call Punk a "failure".

He's one of the most popular superstars on Raw.

It's obvious that the higher ups think highly enough of him to put him in as many positions as he's been in.

I don't think you call call someone who's won as many championships as Punk as in a year a "slow starter".

He'll be fine.

I compare the way he's being booked to the way Bret Hart was booked after he lost the WWF Title for the first time.

He was in shitty ass fueds with a way past his prime Jerry Lawler, a wrestling dentist, and a wrestling clown. If you would've judged Bret Hart by what happened after his first title reign. You would call him a failure.

If message boards existed then. People would be talking about Bret's inability to draw, and that's why Vince took the belt off him the way he did at Wrestlemania 9 and put it back on Hogan.

People who are calling Punk a failure, and fans of his who say he's being booked badly need to just chill out. Phil Brooks is gonna have PLENTY of title reigns in the WWE. Everybody gets booked badly one time or another.

Does anyone remember The Rock's first I.C. Title reign? Absolutely not, because it was awful.

C.M. Punk is not a failure. Kizarny is a failure, the Boogeyman is a failure.

 

[The Brain]

I never really undersood C.M. Punk's popularity in the first place. People need to accept him for what he is: a good mid card wrestler. He is not World Championship material. Maybe some day, but not yet. You can't really judge a guy by an IC title reign anymore. I hate to say it, but that title hasn't meant much since Steve Austin threw the belt in a river over 11 years ago. There haven't been many respectable IC title reigns since Austin willingly forefited the belt. There hasn't even been an IC title defense at Mania in seven years. The tag titles are even worse and the ECW title is barely worth mentioning. I'm getting off the subject. Bottom line is C.M. Punk is a good IC title champion or contender in today's WWE. He could ocasionally challenge for, but shouldn't win, the world title. I wouldn't call him a failure. Expectations were too high.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Like i said before in a previos thread.....Cm Punk reminds me of a younger Randy Orton....remember Randy Orton won the world title only to lose it to hhh a month later.....

The difference being, Randy Orton was built up under Evolution. He was mentored by Ric Flair and Triple H., learned "everything he knows" from being in that group.

He became a popular Intercontinental Champion, dominated matches against the likes of Rob Van Dam, Edge, and even Mick Foley. He had a nice long run as Intercontinental Champion, before dropping it, and subsequently earning a shot to face the World Heavyweight Champion a month or two later, at Summerslam.

He defeated Chris Benoit, in Canada, and became the Youngest Heavyweight Champion within the company. All of those things are remarkable.

Sure, he dropped the title a month later to Triple H. and it made absolutely NO sense. But that wasn't him as a failure. Everything leading to that point was building him up as a Main Eventer, and all of that came to be down the road.

On the flip side, C.M. Punk didn't earn anything outside of a victory in a ladder match. He went on a losing streak, (opposite what Orton did on his way to the Heavyweight title) and defeated the current Champion Edge, after he had already been beaten and practically knocked out by Batista. (opposite of Orton, beating the home-country Champion)

then from then it almost seemed like he was demoted...

The thing is, once you win the Heavyweight title, then lose it.. everything feels and seems like a demotion, because there isn't anything higher. It's where you go from being a former Heavyweight Champion, that defines you as a failure or not.

Orton; went on to feud with the likes of Evolution, the Undertaker, and several others.

Punk; went on to become a forgettable Tag Team and, now, Intercontinental Champion. He hasn't done anything memorable since being known for honestly becoming a Mike Adamle failure of a Champion.

now cm punk has falling a lil more than orton did.....but the guy is a hell of a talent give him some time and he'll be up there....

Punk is in his 30's. He's been in this industry since the late 90's. And has been a big member of Ring of Honor, since 2003. He's been in the W.W.E., on television, since 2006.

How much more time does he need, before he does something that isn't considered a fluke or failure?

Randy Orton debuted in 2002, he suffered an injury and yet still came back to become a viable Superstar in the industry less than 1 year later.

This goes to show you, you can have all the talent in the world, but without the extras, you've got nothing overall. Punk has fan support, but so did the E.C.W. Originals. That doesn't make you the best in the business.

i dont see them pulling a kane on cm punk.....

Neither do I. Kane was built up as a dominate force upon his beginning. And he's only now winding down as nothing more than a jobber toward the end of his career.

If anything, Punk seems to have skipped the "great debut" and went straight to the "winding down" portion of his career.

but as for now i dont think we can judge him just yet he is still very early in his career....

He began wrestling in the late 90's. He's been a well-known Superstar since 2003, that was 6 years ago. Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle were well known within their first 6 months. Granted, Punk will never, EVER be even remotely close to them.

But how long do we have to wait, before we open judgment upon him? He's been with the W.W.E. for going on 3 years now. Several current Superstars were already huge within the first year, let alone their 3rd.

but if i had to say so no.....i mean i dont see anyone calling kane a faliure as a champ and he only held it once and for one day too.

Actually, everyone should've and likely does call Kane's run as Champion a failure. Because it was only for a single day.

Punk's run as Champion was even more of a failure, dispite going over the course of a couple months. Mainly, because he equalled that of the same success Kane had in a single day. Punk never did anything meaningful as a Champion. He still lost, and in the matches he won (outside of Summerslam, against J.B.L.) he flukishly won by countouts, DQ's, or no contests.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

The problem isn't CM Punk, the problem is the WWE doesn't seem to know what they want to do with the IC title.

Uhm.. well, that could've explained his failed run as the mid-card Champion, but it certainly doesn't cover-up why he failed as being the World Heavyweight, or Tag Team, Champion. Unless the Intercontinental title is like some type of virus that's spread backwards throughout the other titles?!

Face facts here.. while the Intercontinental Championship is being lost in transition, Punk wasn't good enough to attempt turning it around, apparently. And judging by who's the current Champion, considering LOADS of people believe openly that J.B.L. couldn't carry a box of ring ropes.. that definately doesn't look good for Punk.

So to answer your question, I'd say slow starter and far from failure. Punk is over with the fans, but never to what the WWE expects him or wants him to be.

Wait.. so you're saying because Punk is majorly over with the fans, that because it's more than what W.W.E. expected, they're trying to intentionally sabotage his career so people will cheer him less? IT'S WORKING!

The WWE seems very unsure on how to use him and push him and thus have pretty much second guessed themselves on everything they did with him.

Typically, that's not the Company's fault.. it's the Products. (ie. Punk) When you continue to second guess something, it's because it isn't working out how you would've thought it should. In other words, it's failing and you have to pull off and try a new approach.

You pretty much just summed up in different words, that Punk is a bigger failure than even "I" could've thought possible. Well done.

Anyway, to sum up a long post, not a failure, the best is still yet to come and I for one can hardly wait.

If by "the best is yet to come" you mean "we wish him well in his future endeavor's" then I, too, can hardly wait.

No, CM Punk isn't a failure. He can't help how he's booked.

I knew someone was gonna use this. Did you even read my post? I'm pretty sure I said to try harder than using this piss-bucket excuse, because that's exactly what it is.

If C.M. Punk was a worthy Superstar, he could've taken the shittest of storylines and made it work out. Hulk fucking Hogan debuted with a purple fucking cape. Okay.. Hulk Hogan. Purple cape. Heel...

Punk is a failure, and creative is being thrown under the bus because people for some odd reason don't want to accept it. You'll accept a guy like Kane, or even Batista, to be a failure and a fluke.. but you'll praise Punk to no end. I don't get it.

He's solid on the mic and in the ring. The fans are behind him all the way.

He has not honestly once cut a promo great enough to be remembered in the W.W.E. And the best match he's ever had, was likely a gimmick.

If he's booked to be a weak champion that's how he's booked.

Let me just reply to that, with this..

C.M. Punk.. Intercontinental Champion - 49 days.

Santino Marella.. Intercontinental Champion - 85 days.

So, I can understand that there is a possibility that Punk could've been "booked" as a "weak" Champion. But now you're just implying that Santino was a better Champion. Santino > Punk.

You can make any champion look strong.

Can, or can't?

Because Punk has never looked strong.

The thing with Punk is they've booked him poorly and he is still massively over. He's easily in the top 5 for faces in the company right now.

Santino Marella is majorly over dispite being booked poorly too. It's because he's meant to look like a fool. SO are you implying now that Punk, too, is meant to look like a fool?

And no, he's definately NOT a top 5 face.

The only faces I'd say are more over are HHH, Batista, Cena and Rey.

1, 2, 3, 4.. Hmmm...

Possibly HBK as well.

5.. HA! You just named off 5 guys, so you proved yourself wrong. Saves me the trouble. Thanks.

They booked him weak and in the casual fans eyes he's still strong. That's not a failure, that's a huge success.

Fluke title reigns, forgettable matches, failing storylines. No, no I'm pretty sure that's a failure, not a success.

Just because the fans love you, doesn't always make you successful.

I don't think it's fair to call Punk a "failure".

Meh. I don't think it's fair to judge someone because he's caught staring at a girl that's apparently 15, but looks 19, but it happens.

He's one of the most popular superstars on Raw.

John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Triple H., Edge, Rey Mysterio, Shawn Michaels, and several others are all currently "on Raw" and get WAY more "pop" than Punk does.

That's not considered him being one of the most popular, unless you're just rounding out the entire roster. Then, sure.

It's obvious that the higher ups think highly enough of him to put him in as many positions as he's been in.

Or, because of a failed drug test, a botched draft that sent both Heavyweight titles to one brand, and being in the right place and the right time.

Or, they could've wanted to erase Kevin Nash from holding the record of winning the Triple Crown record within a year's time. You know, either way I'm sure works.

I don't think you call call someone who's won as many championships as Punk as in a year a "slow starter".

No.. but out of those Championships, which one did he win that has credibility?

Then, once you've narrowed that list down to the World Heavyweight title.. ask yourself if he won it fairly, in a match.. or if he won it by "being in the right place, and the right time". Hmmm.. your "tons of titles = successful individual" theory isn't holding as much ground anymore, huh.

He'll be fine.

As long as Christian jumps ship to T.N.A., and M.V.P. says something else that's racist, I'm sure he's a shoe-in for a repeat in the Money in the Ba.. oh, wait.. fuck, Mark Henry's in this year. Nevermind.

I compare the way he's being booked to the way Bret Hart was booked after he lost the WWF Title for the first time.

Apparently you also compare apples to oranges, because neither are the same.

Hart was pushed in a successful manner, that full circled to a year later defeating the man that defeated him a year prior.

Unless Punk re-wins MITB, and re-cashes in the shot on Edge, who's once again unconscious at the time.. it's not the same. And won't ever be, nor should it ever be, considered the same.

He was in shitty ass fueds with a way past his prime Jerry Lawler, a wrestling dentist, and a wrestling clown. If you would've judged Bret Hart by what happened after his first title reign. You would call him a failure.

I'm pretty sure you're skipping your history a bit. Hart's first Heavyweight title loss was in 1993. He feuded with Lawler, (who was at his W.W.F. best) then Doink, (who had just debuted and was at the top of his game) who was put in place by Lawler.

Punk, on the other hand.. left because he was punted in the head, returned and defeated the guy who beat him to become KotR, after the 3rd-4th try.. then went on to be forgotten again.

And no, I definately would NOT have called Bret Hart a failure, because a year later he defeated Yokozuna, and reclaimed the Heavyweight title.

If message boards existed then. People would be talking about Bret's inability to draw, and that's why Vince took the belt off him the way he did at Wrestlemania 9 and put it back on Hogan.

Uhm, no.. if message boards existed back then, I'm still pretty sure People would've been talking about Hulk Hogan's inability to put other people over, and thus that's why he came into that stupid reign as Heavyweight Champion at WrestleMania IX.

People who are calling Punk a failure, and fans of his who say he's being booked badly need to just chill out. Phil Brooks is gonna have PLENTY of title reigns in the WWE. Everybody gets booked badly one time or another.

All the time.. that's the phrase you were looking for, instead of "one time or another". Yeah, Punk hasn't been booked properly, once.. so it's not "one time or another" its actually "all the time".

Does anyone remember The Rock's first I.C. Title reign? Absolutely not, because it was awful.

And what happened there? Rocky went away, cried about it, considered leaving the industry.. then came back, as a heel (I might add) and joined a group that got him over.

So if by this, you're implying Punk should leave, consider retirement, then possibly come back and join a racist group.. absolutely, I'd cheer him.

C.M. Punk is not a failure. Kizarny is a failure, the Boogeyman is a failure.

The funny thing is, both of those "failures" have received more promo and vignette time than Punk has.

I never really undersood C.M. Punk's popularity in the first place. People need to accept him for what he is: a good mid card wrestler.

You really should've stopped here. I would've considered understanding why you're called "The Brian".. but you didn't, did you.

 

[cline00]

I don't think Punk is a failure. Many pro wrestlers dream of one day becoming World Heavyweight Champion or even IC Champion. Punk has accomplished more than a lot of wrestlers have in the short time he's been with the company. However, I feel like he wouldn't have been WHC or even ECW champion so quickly if Chris Benoit hadn't died and the Signature Pharmacy scandal hadn't came out a few years ago...just my opinion. No doubt he was already over with fans and sure he would one day be a big star, but has anyone ever thought that maybe the reason he was pushed so quickly was so WWE could say they have a straight edge drug free champion. I think it's equalivent of Rey Mysterio's push after Eddie's death.

 

[Arrynboot]

Punk would probably be a top player if his character wasn't so goddam boring, who gives a shit about him being straight edge? Steve Austin is arguably the biggest star in pro wrestling history and he was a beer drinking s.o.b, Punk is good in the ring, but in the theatrical world of WWE straight edge is as boring as it gets.

 

[The Deadman]

Cm Punk is boring no one really cares that you don't drink or do drugs we want to see entertainment . When he won the intercontinental title he had no rivalries for it or anything . WHen he held the tag titles it was not that intresting and i say kofi is better than him . I bet you in about a year or two cm punk is gonna be gone

 

[Scott Free]

Well, you knew this would come, and here it is, "It's the way it's been booked." Why is it being booked that way, your guess is as good as mine, I guess he was too good in ROH so they have to downplay him to make it seem like he's "in the big leagues now." Now you said you won't take that as an excuse alone, so here it is, anybody and I mean anybody can be champion if they book it, one look at Dave Archette should convince you of that, BUT..unless you follow up with meaningful feuds, decent storylines and build up that character, it's going to fail. I seriously doubt Punk writes his own angles and books his own matches, if he did, he failed miserably, but when you got a mega machine like the WWE that seems to revolve only around the McMahon's, Triple H, Cena and HBK, what do you expect ?

 

[CJGV1]

i think in light of everything that has been said by the anti punk brigade i think the that maybe the time has come for him to make the turn. i think it would work for him if he was attempting to impose the straight edge lifestyle on superstars that dont embrace it (that would b the entire roster). seeing as many find him boring i doubt he would find it hard to get booed. that being said there arnt many anti heros like austin 4 him to effectively fued with. he would be kinda like a one man rock n roll version of right to censor lol either way with creative giving him belts does nothing for his cred or the belt he has held. its just another statistic.

 

[Showtime]

Uhm.. well, that could've explained his failed run as the mid-card Champion, but it certainly doesn't cover-up why he failed as being the World Heavyweight, or Tag Team, Champion. Unless the Intercontinental title is like some type of virus that's spread backwards throughout the other titles?!

Well it most certainly explains that the WWE has no idea how to push Punk. WHat can you learn about a 4o something title reign of any title, nothing really. The WWE is afraid to give any one who may not be as over as they are and length and instead choose t continuously surprise the fans at every corner. You say it doesn't explain why he failed as WHC and Tag, well who the hell he face as tag. Once Priceless broke up, because of Dibiase making movies, Punk and Kofi had no one else to face and whatever feud they were supposed to have was gone.They had no one to feud with, save John and Miz, but the WWE wasn't sure about pushing them till about a month after Punk and Kofi won, there again, unsureness in the product the WWE has. As WHC, the only person the WWE would let job to him was JBL, if WWE had any want or desire to make Punk and credible or good champ, they would've let him beat another name at least half way cleanly with a pin, not DQ's or countouts, or no contests, you gotta remember those aren't Punk's fault, that's the WWE telling him what to do. One scenario, if Punk had used his MITB as the main event, and not heelishly as when he attacked Edge at his weakest (not to mention no angry feud took place after), and beat Edge either cleanly or with mild assistance by Batista, his reign (and the RAW rating that night) would've been immediately better.

Typically, that's not the Company's fault.. it's the Products. (ie. Punk) When you continue to second guess something, it's because it isn't working out how you would've thought it should. In other words, it's failing and you have to pull off and try a new approach.

You pretty much just summed up in different words, that Punk is a bigger failure than even "I" could've thought possible. Well done.



If by "the best is yet to come" you mean "we wish him well in his future endeavor's" then I, too, can hardly wait.

I think your jumping the gun a little much here (and unfortunately I have work soon, so I'll have to wrap this up as best as I can). Agreed it's not always the companies fault for a wrestler failing, it is usually the product, but in the WWE today, I blame way more on them than anything else. They don't give their talents any sort of chance to step up and try and make mistakes and hopefully gain the fans love and respect and explode in popularity. They let Austin run with his character rather than tweaking it up and second guessing every opponent he faced and he exploded. There's not a chance you can judge Punk and any of his title reigns because they were beyond too short to really judge them success of faliure, and the WWE failed to give Punk any sort of push or feud to capitalize on his reign. punk needs to feud with people. WWE throws him every which way and gives him short 3 week feuds at most with any character, how's somebody supposed to build themselves off opponents (remember, they can't build themselves just on their own, they need good opponents so they can build off them). The WWE has failed Punk by not giving him consistent opponents, letting him go over a few big manes who would pass the torch to him, and all and all, cutting every one of his pushes short so that everyone assumes failure.

Big Will I thought you were a Punk fan, have some fate in the straightedge star. I'd continue further, but I'll be late if I write any longer. I'll further debated you with this in 9-10 hours.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

Punk would probably be a top player if his character wasn't so goddam boring, who gives a shit about him being straight edge? Steve Austin is arguably the biggest star in pro wrestling history and he was a beer drinking s.o.b, Punk is good in the ring, but in the theatrical world of WWE straight edge is as boring as it gets.

So you want Triple H to come out and say "If you love taking steroids, give me a hell yea"?

He lives is gimmick of being Straight Edge. I dont care if he doesnt drink or do drugs, maybe im the stupid one for going down the pub every night and having some beers.

Punk looks like an average gay would if he got off his backside and went to the gym 4 times a week. He is believable gimmickwise

 

[Savage1]

I know you are saying not to use the booking or creative team as an excuse for Punk but you have to call a spade a spade. He is talented in the ring and fairly good on the stick. I believe in him as a champion and would be thrilled to see a young talented guy as a title holder...but only of a reputable belt like the WHC,WWE,IC, or US. It all boils down to the way creative writes for him. He is fully capable of being a champ and holding the belt for a long run and being in a good fued for a while. I'm pissed as a fan that they keep fucking him over and not giving him a fair shake. Give him the IC belt, write him into a good fued, build on the fued and give him the reign and respect he deserves because he is as legit as they come. It is creative and bookers that fuck him! Its not Punk that fucks himself. If they continue to drop the ball I hope he goes to TNA and explodes, as TNA is continuing to grow and another dropped ball by WWE will be another step towards TNA competeing with them. Sorry for the repetetiveness of this post but I cant say it enough to get my point across

 

[Christian Battlez]

Okay, of course I'm gonna take some undo "This is only because you don't like him" heat. But let's be real, C.M. Punk has become a "Grand Slam" Champion, and out of the titles he's won.. he's made exactly how many of those reigns mean something? One. Barely.

So let's recap.

ok lets

E.C.W. Championship: C.M. Punk was all set to take on Chris Benoit for the Championship at Night of Champions, however due to the real life issue with Benoit, Johnny Nitro (later renamed to John Morrison) replaced and defeated Punk.

Because they were hoping Benoit was gonna be there Tuesday to beat Nitro so Punk could still face Benoit. They obviously wanted Punk to get the rub from taking the strap from Benoit not win it by beating Nitro.They were really in a lose lose situation. In fact the only reason Nitro won was because he was the only other member of the ECW roster at the show and he was there to support Melina.

For the next few months, it was actually John Morrison defeating C.M. Punk on a monthly basis, before Punk finally won against Morrison, on a regular E.C.W. broadcast, after it was discovered that Morrison had broken the Wellness Policy. Connection?? Possibly.

Because maybe they realized they had something with Morrison as well. You see how talented Morrison has become. He took his own title reign and capitalized on it and I think he did a heck of a job. As far as your claim that Punk only won because of Morrison getting suspended. I don't think it was a circumstantial title win. Punk had to win eventually and if he'd lost to Morrison one more time it would have killed Punk's momentum. By this point the Benoit feud was impossible(for obvious reasons) so Punk was able to get his first title win from Johnny Mo. I'm assuming this was the one reign you were sorta referring to. Wasn't a bad one.

Punk went on to defend his Championship against the likes of Eljiah Burke, Big Daddy V, The Miz & John Morrison, only to lose the title to Chavo Guerrero. I repeat, Chavo.. Guerrero.

you know just as well as I do him losing to Chavo was to push La Familia not to hurt Punk. He also wouldn't have been able to win MITB if he was ECW champion.

World Heavyweight Championship: Following his E.C.W. title run, he won Money in the Bank. From there, he went on quite a bit of a losing streak as he first really began getting questioned as being worthy of taking that next step.

On June 30th, C.M. Punk cashed in his MITB opportunity against Edge, who'd just been beaten down and left for dead by Batista. One GTS later, and we crowned a new Champion.

It was for shock value. Noone expected Punk to become champion that night but he did. It's not like Edge hasn't won the title that way EIGHT times.

From this step, several people (including your's truly) questioned how Punk could ever be believed as a Heavyweight Champion on the flagship show, surrounded by the likes of Cena, Batista, Shawn Michaels and others. He went on to defeat his title in flukish fashion (ie. retaining through count-outs, and DQ's, or just no contests in general) against the likes of Kane and Batista. The only true individual he ever defeated cleanly, was J.B.L.

I don't care how much you say booking is a copout answer. There is no other explanation. The booking team tells Punk how he wins and when he wins. They wanted to save face with Batista. So Punk couldn't just pin him cleanly. He did beat JBL but thats just because at this point in his career thats all JBL is good for. I hate using the argument that booking is the problem as much as you. But in this case its TRUE.

At Unforgiven, just moments before he was scheduled to be in the Scramble match, Randy Orton punted him in the head and he was taken out. Affectively costing him his Championship, as Chris Jericho later won it that night. From that moment, Punk had a Steel Cage rematch, but ended up losing it as well.

I think at this point they were trying to save the little credibility he had left and not have him get beaten. But they coulda had someone else get pinned last and he coulda been screwed that way. They handled it poorly and I expected a feud with Orton and Legacy afterwards. Instead we get a oneoff with Orton where he loses cleanly and thats it. As far as Jericho winning the cage match. I suppose the Punk ship had sailed at this point and the Chris Jericho boat was taking off.

Tag Team Championship w/ Kofi Kingston: The pairing of Punk & Kingston up-set and shocked the team of Priceless (Rhodes & DiBiase) as they won the Tag Team Championships on a random Raw at the end of October. A mere 47 days later, they would drop the titles to John Morrison & The Miz in a house show in Canada.

This whole tag title reign was done to get the belts off Priceless and on a couple of faces so they could be transferred to Miz & Morrison. Also Ted had to go film the Marine 2. So Priceless needed to lose the titles for awhile.

Intercontinental Championship: While C.M. Punk shined in the #1 contender's tournament to crown him the next challenger, the actual title match (or rather matches, as he had to have 3+ to finally win the title) was less than memorable.

Punk defeated William Regal, who had defeated Punk the previous year to crown himself King of the Ring. After this, Punk went on to randomly feud with Regal on episodes of Raw, which in reality noone seemed to care for.

I thought the NO DQ match he won the title in Chicago in was awesome. The energy was great and the match was a good length. Punk won and you felt it. It was really good. The first two were quick disqualifications. No matter who is in the match thats gonna suck. Orton and Cena's WWE title match at Unforgiven in 2007 I think the year was. Ended within minutes because Cena got himself disqualified. That match sucked and those two are phenomenal performers.

Punk was instantly being thought of as the next possible "savior" for the Intercontinental division, dispite never defending the title on any Pay per view since winning it, and only being remembered for defeating Regal. And with this previous episode of Raw, a mere 49 days later from becoming Intercontinental Champion, all of that seems to have been flushed down the drain.

Because Punk is probably going to win another MITB. I don't see anyone else doing it. Vince doesn't like Christian and thus wouldn't give him a free title reign unless he lost his cash in match. MVP just got off a huge losing streak although he is the next best option. Everyone else isn't even close to being a legit main eventer. So Punk had to lose the title so JBL could focus on it at Mania. It makes good buisiness since. They shouldn't have put the title on Punk in the first place but they wanted him to have a grand slam because he has earned it. His gimmick is kid friendly. He is over with the crowd and he wins the majority of his matches and they're almost always good.

So I ask you.. is C.M. Punk just an overall Failure as a Champion, regardless of what title it is? Or is he just a really, really slow starter? If this is the face of what could be our future for Professional Wrestling, someone needs to post one hell of an argument outside of "It's the way he's booked", because booking or not.. he's being destroyed as a credible Champion, overall.

Slow starter by default and I explained why.

What are everyone's thoughts and opinions on this issue? Is Punk a failure as a Champion? If so, why do you think that way? If you believe he's not a failure, make sure to explain why yout think that as well.

Did and now im waiting for you to tell me im wrong lol.

 

[Mark0820]

I knew someone was gonna use this. Did you even read my post? I'm pretty sure I said to try harder than using this piss-bucket excuse, because that's exactly what it is.

If C.M. Punk was a worthy Superstar, he could've taken the shittest of storylines and made it work out. Hulk fucking Hogan debuted with a purple fucking cape. Okay.. Hulk Hogan. Purple cape. Heel...

Punk is a failure, and creative is being thrown under the bus because people for some odd reason don't want to accept it. You'll accept a guy like Kane, or even Batista, to be a failure and a fluke.. but you'll praise Punk to no end. I don't get it.

Hulk Hogan didn't get over as a heel in his debut. He didn't get over until he became a face. He was a big, huge guy that could talk on the mic. As for CM Punk, his gimmick IS working. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be getting huge pops. He debuted a little over 2 years ago and has won the IC, ECW, Tag and World titles. That's not a failure. If the booking is to make you look weak, you will look weak. Hogan was booked incredibly strong, same as Batista, Cena, HHH, Taker, Warrior, etc. Look at how they were booked. When they won the title they didn't win by countout or DQ. Punk did. That's not his fault. That's booking. You want to build up Punk? You put him in matches with Jericho(which he did and had an amazing match with), HBK, Orton, etc and have him win clean by pin or submission.

He has not honestly once cut a promo great enough to be remembered in the W.W.E. And the best match he's ever had, was likely a gimmick.

Watch his matches with Jericho. You can't have great promos when you aren't given time to put one on. Jericho gets 10 minutes of promo time to build his feuds. Punk... 30 seconds. That's booking. That's got nothing to do with Punk's failure or success in the ring.

Let me just reply to that, with this..

C.M. Punk.. Intercontinental Champion - 49 days.

Santino Marella.. Intercontinental Champion - 85 days.

So, I can understand that there is a possibility that Punk could've been "booked" as a "weak" Champion. But now you're just implying that Santino was a better Champion. Santino > Punk.

Ok, Edge's first run with the world title lasted 21 days. Punks lasted almost 3 months. Edge must be a terrible champion and a failure right? I mean his title reigns never last long. Right? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Can, or can't?

Because Punk has never looked strong.

Can. They haven't. That's the difference. Punk still gets over better than the significant majority of the roster.

Santino Marella is majorly over dispite being booked poorly too. It's because he's meant to look like a fool. SO are you implying now that Punk, too, is meant to look like a fool?

And no, he's definately NOT a top 5 face.

No, you seriously need help with reading comprehension. Santino was booked as a comedy and trashed the title's credibility even further. People laugh at him and don't give a crap if he ever wrestles. Punk gets over by wrestling.

5.. HA! You just named off 5 guys, so you proved yourself wrong. Saves me the trouble. Thanks.

I said "Possibly HBK" because he's been getting booed a lot as well, same with Cena. So yeah, learn to read complete posts and not just the points you want to see.

Fluke title reigns, forgettable matches, failing storylines. No, no I'm pretty sure that's a failure, not a success.

Just because the fans love you, doesn't always make you successful.

Wrong, it's the only thing that makes you successful. If the fans don't love you or love to hate you, you get no where. If the big names went out and got no crowd reaction, they'd never have been the big names they are.

Simple fact is you simply do not like Punk and are looking for ways to make him seem shitty. You refuse to see anyone's argument but your own. You pick certain words out to make your counter argument and ignore the rest of the posts.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Punks only long run was with the ECW title. Like most of the people who've held that title, his reign was fine. Not great, but not bad either. Maybe he should have done more with it. I don't know. But when you're feuding with The Miz, John Morrison & Chavo Guerrero, how much are the fans really going to be into it? Punk should have got fans more into him as a champion. But so should have the people he was facing. The Miz & Morrison proved to be popular after their feud with Punk, and despite what people feel about Chavo, he's solid and intresting at times. Just look at the Los Guerreros team.

The other title reigns aren't a good way to judge if he's a failure. A tag title & IC title reigns where he feuded with one person and one team? Then a loss in a match that wasn't hyped? That's hardly going to give you a successful title reign.

As for the world title reign. Again, his matches weren't spectacular. But they were passable. Batista is hit and miss when it comes to opponents, so an average match with him is a very small success. An average match with JBL is more than 75% of the roster get out of him, success. And Snitzky, his match with Punk was probably the best one he ever had. Not that it's saying much. But Punk still got more out of him than anybody else did in 3 and a half years.

After ''losing'' the title he had a mini feud with Y2J, where each match was very good. Was Jericho carrying him? Certainly, but he was carrying everybody last year. But it says a lot when he's made to look more competative when he's no longer champion. They had some very good matches. If that feud had happened when he had the title, would he be branded a failure now?

 

[stingerlegends]

Why is it that so many internet fans like the small guys?

CM Punk has one of the weakest movesets I've ever seen. He looks like a jobber when he's in the ring with bigger guys.

Y2J could be the best IC guy ever, but everyone wants him as WHC which is clearly not where he belongs. Great on the stick, but he does get annoying and he looks like a complete tool.

Jeff Hardy is a botch-fest. Most overrated guy out there.

And yet everyone rags on Mysterio. Not that I feel that he deserves a WHC title shot either,

but c'mon people......Punk isn't a slow starter OR a failure. He just is what he is......Mid-Card. Period. Sometimes he will get a title, sometimes not....but he's just okay, though I will say that his "gimmick", being real and all, is refreshing.

 

[Pala!]

Let me address a couple of things;

Weakest Movesets: Now looking at your username "Stinger" that may mean you are a Sting fan. If you want to talk about weak movesets look at Sting. He has a reverse DDT for a finisher, come on. Also a very weak looking sharpshooter. This is not a shot at Sting, as I like him. But CM Punk easily has one of the better move-sets in WWE right now.

Straight-Edge Gimmick: Its great, look at his stuff in ROH and other indys and see how good that gimmick actually is. WWE are not pushing the gimmick AT ALL. They mention it rarely and when do they give Punk promo time to actually build himself? Bearly ever. (Also its him, not a gimmick.)

"And the best match he's ever had, was likely a gimmick"

Rey Mysterio Vs. CM Punk (IC Championship Tournament Final)
CM Punk Vs. John Morrison (20 Minutes of Fame; ECW on Sci-Fi)
CM Punk Vs. John Morrison(ECW Championship)

There is three that are rated quite highly, TWO ON TV. (How many people put on highly rated TV matches these days?)

Bad Title Reigns: Yes they were bad, but CM Punk is not a booker. CM Punk gets booked as he is booked, he does not make his own decisions. He got like one, maybe two in-ring promo's as champion. Also the one with JBL about the Beer Drinking contest was very enjoyable.

Have a look at;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuP8tqxeslY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WKKvOv3MoY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQnsmFLKSP8&feature=related

 

[stingerlegends]

Pala

Hey all I'm saying is that just because someone isn't pushed for the WWE or WHC title doesn't make them a failure or a slow starter. It's a different age, but when I grew up, it was obvious that the Hogans and the Andres were gonna be the title guys, and the Snakes and the Steamboats and the Harts (though that would change later) were gonna put on different style matches in the mid-card. AND EVERYONE WAS COOL WITH THAT. It made sense.

And by the way, Sting's reverse DDT was bad-ass when he just held them by the hair and stared at them. (I don't watch TNA so haven't thankfully watched him decline)
Punk's GTS looks weak his kicks are as weak as RVD's punches were. I haven't seen much intensity or even bringing me to the front of my seat. But that's just my opinion. Even Hogan could bring me to the edge of my seat, and he's not a good "wrestler"

 

[GRocca7x]

I agree with the most of the points stated before. And as much of a punk fan I am I'm willing to admit that his WWE run so far hasn't been as great as I expected it to be, but he definitely is no failure. I guarantee you if he was a heel he would be a whole lot more watchable. Plus the straightedge gimmick is tailor-made for a heel. I have another vid to add to Pala!'s list of Punk's great promo's. When watching it, imagine him doing the same promo on Raw the day after winning another World Title .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0rd_cyL4Qw

 

[Big Sexy]

There is no logical person that can say CM Punk is a failure. He has been in the WWE for less then three years and he has already won the ECW title, World Tag titles, IC title, and World Heavyweight title. His reigns might not have been amazing and he might not have held any of the titles for a long time, but it's not like there are many other guys that have won those titles that have had long reigns.

ECW Title- Punks reign lasted for 4 months and 21 days. That is the longest reign since Bobby Lashley's first reign over two years ago.

World Title- Punks reign lasted just over two months. That reign is actually one of the longest with that title in the last 2 years. Edge, Jericho, and Batista have all had shorter reigns with thetitle over the last year and a half.

IC title- His reign lasted less then two months, but the IC title has been switching hands every 2 to 3 months since 2006.

Tag Titles- Reign lasted less then two months, but the only reason they got the titles in the first place was because they needed a face team to transition the titles between two heel teams (Priceless, Miz and Morrison).

Punk may be a lot of things, but a failure is not one of them.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I have no other choice but to consider CM Punk a failure. Even after this man's horrible run as the WHC, he had everything handed to him on a silver platter and he still failed to capture the support of fans. Sure, he has a few vocal fans who have probably been with him since his allegedly great days in Ring of Honor, but he has attracted hardly any fans that are unaware of independent promotions in America (however, the few fans he does have are overzealous, so it seems like he has more supporters than he actually does). If it were up to me, I would stick this man in a permanent mid-card position to put heels over. However, he will more than likely get another reign as either the WHC or WWE Champion, although I predict it to flop just as bad as his first reign. However, I'll look forward to that, as I'll then be able to refer to Punk as the M. Night Shyamalan of wrestling. Except, unlike Shyamalan, Punk hasn't even shown a flash of brilliance.