Your thoughts on Ihsenbergs comments regarding Guerrero and Benoit?

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

They are just like any of us here on the forum, a wrestling fan with an opinion to share. There's nothing wrong with what he said or how he said it, it's his opinion and that's what I watch the show for.

I don't necessarily agree with his comments on them though.

Eddie Guerrero shouldn't really be compared to Chris Benoit. Guerrero died in a completely different manner to the death of Benoit. They can not be compared. Benoit killed his son and wife. His son... and his wife... he killed his family, it's completely inexcusable. Guerrero's death was no different to Fatu's or Cade's. It was simply an addiction that caught up with them whether they were still on it or not, they died as result.

So, Isenberg had all the rights in the world to share his opinion whether I agree with it or not.

 

[Heartbreak_Kid_707]

EVERYONE makes mistakes in life. I have and I can promise 100% of people in here have made a mistake. If anyone in here can honestly say they've never smoked, drank or tried some form of drug you are full of s*it. Either that or you literally sit behind a computer screen 24/7/365 and have NO social gatherings what so ever.

DUDE, are smoking crack?? YEA, hook me up to a lie detector test...i have NEVER in my life smoked a cigerette, frank ANY form of alcohol, or tried any kind of drug....Im 30 years old and have been a saved christian since i was 12. A life? Yes, i have a job, steady good income, and 2 beautifull nieces and i nephew (5,3, and 2) that i am responsible for raising. So yea im awake at 6:00 every morning and dont go to bed till midnight or later and might spend an hour or 2 on some days on the computer. So please DONT judge people whom you have absolutly no idea who they are..i CAN garantee you 100% on that...

Just because you did dont mean everyone else does...

Now that iv adressed that i think we all will agree that benoit was a great wrestler, but he wasnt the best. Niether was Eddie. And yes i think if Hogan had killed his entire family i do think WWE would have acknowladged it...

Jayson

 

[Shay]

Ok for one these two clowns should not be taken seriously, theyre a couple of wwe marks, how these two fucktards got their own crappy show is beyond me. This ****** talks about how he had no gimmick and how he didnt want to improve himself, he didnt need one, he was a master in the ring.

Secondly, i loved benoit and eddie's work in the ring, benoit didnt kill me so i really dont care what happened outside of that ring, same goes to eddie, i dont care for what they did off tv, theyre still two of the greatest of all time.

seriously these two area a bunch of ******s

Fella i sort of agree with you based on the fact that i believe what they did off tv shouldnt affect opinion it should be about what they did in the ring but in another way the guy turned pyscho killed his own family and that affected a lot of people no matter which way you look at it

 

[3,000 Pound Gorrilla]

DUDE, are smoking crack?? YEA, hook me up to a lie detector test...i have NEVER in my life smoked a cigerette, frank ANY form of alcohol, or tried any kind of drug....Im 30 years old and have been a saved christian since i was 12. A life? Yes, i have a job, steady good income, and 2 beautifull nieces and i nephew (5,3, and 2) that i am responsible for raising. So yea im awake at 6:00 every morning and dont go to bed till midnight or later and might spend an hour or 2 on some days on the computer. So please DONT judge people whom you have absolutly no idea who they are..i CAN garantee you 100% on that...

Just because you did dont mean everyone else does...

Now that iv adressed that i think we all will agree that benoit was a great wrestler, but he wasnt the best. Niether was Eddie. And yes i think if Hogan had killed his entire family i do think WWE would have acknowladged it...

Jayson

I suppose I wasn't gonna post til I saw this. No one is perfect. If you have ever had a cup of coffee... a glass of soda... an aspirin... YOU HAVE HAD DRUGS brother. Caffiene (or how ever you spell it, it's early) is a DRUG. Acetomenephine is a drug. But, I digress. You may be saved, but you are also ignorant.

Eddie = Great wrestler, great entertainer. I loved his qimmick... Think about HBK, he could have ended the same way and was going down that road. RIP.

Benoit = Great wrestler, great entertainer. The MLB and NFL are JUST NOW learning the hazards of post concussive brain injuries. Think WWE knew about them? Or New Japan Wrestling 20 years ago? Combine that with steroid use... who knows. I am not exonerating a man who killed his wife and children, but, ladies and gentlemen, IT ISN'T MY PLANCE TO JUDGE EITHER. So, RIP. Maybe one day in the future we will dust off the ol' Crippler DVDs. But not now.

And, there you have it.

 

[JohnOldSnake4]

His thoughts on Benoit I can at least understand, if not being fully on board (he was an incredible wrestler after all and it could be argued that's all that should matter. I'm not going to sway one way or the other here...) but putting Eddie, a guy who beat drugs and alcoholism, had to rebuild not only his professional but also his family life, climbed from rock-bottom to become one of the most beloved, technically gifted, charismatic, versatile performers in WWE history in the same boat was plain idiotic. It's rarely that I even disagree with Josh Isenberg but including Eddie here infuriated me.

 

[CB429]

Eddie Guerrero had been sober for about 3-4 years before he passed, at least to my knowledge from what i heard from many different sources...and he found faith in god and everything so to say he is a bad role model is just dumb. Was he a bad role model earlier in his career? yes...but was he a bad influence later in his career no not at all if anything he was an insperation to anyone else who was in the same situation as him and that they can over come it. Plus there were some things mentally wrong with benoit the day that all happend, again i remember hearing it from numerous sources...obviously what he did was horrible but there were some weird circumstances that dont hold him 100% responsible. On topic now, i think Josh's comments were just dumb and i dont agree with basically anything he said maybe a couple of things but what ever, I guess people are entitled to their opinions though they might be dumb

The point that isenberg made was that these ppl should not be commended for their actions and they shouldn't be... Guess what guys thousands of other wrestlers before benoit took chairshots to the head too... He wasn't the only one... Foley's put his body through way more... I commend WWE from banning shots to the head... Everyone should realize these measures are enacted so that wrestlers live longer... I don't wanna jericho or orton or any guys dying at 45... I'm not saying that there weren't other factors in those guys deaths what i'm saying is that there lives were not ones that kids should idolize... You know what for everything benoit did in the ring, ppl will only now remember him for the murder... Eddie was apparently clean for about 1-2 years before his death...He is a bad role model... You know why cause do u want your kids growing and abusing alcohol to a point where their wife leaves them or they have severe alcohol and pain killer addiction... You probably don't... That's why he isn't... I give him all the credit in the world for quitting his addiction but the trauma that he probably gave vickie and their family probably wasn't easy for them to bear either... So understand where i'm coming from and realize that they are in no way marketable or good role models.... Guess what guys they made millions of dollars in their day... We cheered our asses off for them in their day... They got what they deserved and now we simply need to move on...

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Josh Isenberg is completely totally 100% rite Beniot isn't a good person 4 wat he done and he shouldn't be celebrated 4 it it really would be best if people just forgot bout him and maybe in 10-15 years that will happen

Now Eddie was always 1 of my favorites he was funny and very talented in the ring but i hav no emotional tie 2 him he was just somebody i watched on tv and i liked his character now i dont like it he is dead but honestly it didnt bother me 2 the point where i cried and was upset for a few weeks i just didnt know the guy.

Even with wat Beniot did he was an excellent wrestler and it would be nice if we could just remember the wrestler but the majority of people will only remember him 4 killing his wife and child and then himself.

So yes I agree with wat Isenberg said he had every rite 2 say it

Well said, I agree completely.

Not taking anything away from both guys as it comes to wrestling as I was a huge fan of both (especially Benoit) but to be perfectly honest both guys brought this on themselves.

Eddie's a completely different story and even though his years of drug abuse was the cause of his death, my hat does go off to him for at least kicking that habit and making his life better in his final years, not too many people can do that. With that said at the end of the day he did bring this on himself and the truth is he has no one to blame but himself.

Benoit was one of the most gifted technical wrestlers I've ever seen and I was always up for watching a Benoit match, I was just a big fan of his style and his work between the ropes, but that doesn't change the fact that he murdered his wife, kid, and committed suicide right after, and for these reasons I only have 2 words to say: "FUCK BENOIT". For what he did outside the ring he deserves no respect and I don't blame the WWE one bit for erasing any trace of Chris Benoit, he brought it on himself.

I think Eddie definitely deserves some respect because even though he died from drugs, he at least did his very best to try to make that not happen, but unfortunately too much damage had been done in the past. Benoit on the other hand deserves absolutely no respect in my opinion, how can you respect a person who did what he did? In Eddies case he already has all the respect he deserves, Benoit deserves no respect and thats why he gets none.

 

[Rasha]

I suppose I wasn't gonna post til I saw this. No one is perfect. If you have ever had a cup of coffee... a glass of soda... an aspirin... YOU HAVE HAD DRUGS brother. Caffiene (or how ever you spell it, it's early) is a DRUG. Acetomenephine is a drug. But, I digress. You may be saved, but you are also ignorant.

Here's another type of ignorance; nitpicking over Webster's definition of "drug" and not appreciating the context in which the term was used. You know what he meant just like anyone else would, so come up with a better counterpoint than some pseudointellectual jab.

Now, back to the topic...

I have no problem with anyone crucifying Benoit. He earned it. Ever notice how O.J. Simpson is no longer mentioned in football discussions, but only comes up when there's a celebrity athlete scandal? That's the price you pay, and it will be Benoit's legacy as well. Of course there are older USC and Buffalo Bills fans that want to remember Simpson for what he did as a player, just like there are wrestling fans that want remember Benoit positively. But just like there's now a generation who mainly know for O.J. for his murder trial, white Ford Broncos, and bloody gloves, the next generation will mainly remember Benoit as that guy who killed his family.

As for Eddie, I think it's important to show both sides of his life. I've seen many people say he "beat" his addictions, but ultimately they still won the war by leading to his untimely death. There are many people out there who abuse their bodies in their youth with the false reasoning that they can stop when they get older and "heal" from their behavior. Eddie's death should prove as a warning to anyone who thinks they can escape the consequences. Sure it's possible, but there are no guarantees.

 

[CJ The Pirate]

Benoit always excited me in the ring. I used to enjoy watching him perform. I used to use moves like the Crossface and the Swandive and (if the person I was wrestling was light enough) the German Suplex when I messed about toy wrestling with friends. He influenced me.

Then he killed his family. I didn't copy him. Because I'm not mentally unstable.

But now, at the times I mess about with my cousins, neices and nephews wrestling, I still use Benoit's moves. It's because I was a fan and nothing stops that.

To use the Michael Jackson defence. If he'd have been found guilty of paedophilia, would he have no longer been one of the most talented and entertaining men to ever grace the planet? Would his songs suddenly change from great to terrible. No. Nothing could have changed that and while he would no longer have been as celebrated, the songs would still be listened to because it was the music we loved and not the man.

The same should be applied for Benoit. He was a great entertain. He was a workhorse and he gave it all and that probably cost him his sanity. No, I don't condone what he did to his family and if he was of sound mind when he committed the crimes he should be in hell right now... but it's highly likely his mind was fucked up.

Benoit is still one of my favourites. I still create him on each and every Smackdown game I buy. I think WWE has every right to delete every trace of him. From a company standpoint they have to. Any company would do the same.

But as a fan, I reserve the right to still watch his Ladder match with Jericho for the IC belt at RR 2001. His World Title match against Angle at RR 2003. The Ultimate Submission match against Angle at Backlash 2001. The two Triple Threat matches over Wrestlemania and Backlash Vs Triple H and Shawn Michaels. They were all great matches. Favourites of mine and nothing will ever change that.

 

[KitInaka]

I agree with Josh on Beniot. The man WAS a technical master in the ring but murdering your family is something that can not be over looked. Look at it this way, in College football because of Reggie Bush. USC has lost literally everything for at least the next 2 seasons and everything from the 3 seasons he played and people are okay with that.

But with Beniot, oh HE needs to be remembered. Double standard anyone?

As for Eddie, he got his tribute. He got his recognition. He's remembered for everything that he did. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? A gold statue outside of WWE's offices?

I think the main problem is that everyone wants to live in the past. Hey Universe three words for ya! GET OVER IT!

 

[The Whole F'N Show]

I can see how people could react to Isenberg's comments.
This is how I picture it.

Eddie Guerrero. Viva La Raza. He did have problems with drugs, but many sources say he beat them. But he ultimately died and should be remembered as a great in-ring worker and performer.

Chris Benoit on the other hand. In ring wise, he was great. The Diving Headbutt, The German Suplex's, The Crossface. He was loved by the fans and he loved them back. But should he be in the Hall Of Fame? No.
Yes, he was a great wrestler, but there is a reason WWE got rid of any mention of him. He killed his family. WWE don't need the publicity. Yes, he deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame, but that moment will mean he will never be after what he did.

So I think Josh is right. But whoever disagrees, I can understand why but I just feel that Eddie does deserve to be remembered and be a Hall Of Famer, Benoit, for backlash reasons, should not.

 

[Wrestlefan27]

I'm not excusing Benoit of anything because I don't know (and no one does) exactly what was going through his brain at the time, but I do see that only one person here actually considered that he had brain damage and that it was a factor.

I'm curious to see how many people still believe that he is 100% responsible. Do you think if he hadn't killed himself, the jury would have found him guilty or just committed him to a sanitarium?

Either way, I still believe that both were great wrestlers no matter what they did in their lives. You can't just pretend something never existed.

Just like Reggie Bush. He won the Heisman with his performance and athletic ability. It has been taken away, but everyone still knows that he won it. That's a fact that cannot be changed. They took a trophy, big deal. He's making millions in the NFL.

 

[hitman6589]

tha dude josh is completely wrong bout benoit.. kevin sullivan killed benoit nd his family.. if u ever heard chris father interview on nightlife u will understand nd anylze where hes coming from.. the police didnt do a good job tracin the evidence.. there are accurate theories on kevin sullivan killin benoit nd his fams.. nd if u guys have ever listened to the benoit interview on a wrestlemania dvd he said " i have something really personal going on in my life nd i dont wunt to talk bout it" really steriods gonna provoke u to kill ppl i dont think so.. majority of athletes take steriods to stengthen up nd boost their stamina nd performance just for ppl nd money.. so josh ishenberg if ur readin this ur completly wrong bout benoit.. nd most of u ppl in here too..

 

[MMK]

First of all, I love Chair Shot Reality and am a big fan, but Josh wasn't at his best in this particular segment. I feel he could have used a teleprompter or cue cards as he seemed to lose his focus at several points during the segment.

I agree with his overall point that people need to stop complaining about Benoit not being acknowledged in the title history or mentioned as a possible Hall of Fame candidate. But Josh then went off track and brang up how Benoit never changed his character, etc, etc. Benoit murdering his family will, and SHOULD, keep him out of any Hall Of Fame talk or title history acknowledgment. Thats fine. But lets not pretend that he wasn't a great performer. At this point in the segment, I feel Josh strayed too far from the original point he was trying to make and lost his focus.

The other point he made about Guerrero's death being self-inflicted really depends on your point of view. Many factors contributed to Guerrero's death. Yes, he was addicted to several drugs. Although it could be said that that is more of an overall prolem with the wrestling industry as opposed to a fault of Eddie's, as he is hardly the first wrestler to die with those same addiction problems. But another big factor in Eddie's death, was exhaustion. Work overload. The schedule in WWE is too tough. Kurt Angle commented on this and said it was one of the reasons he left WWE. He didnt want to end up like Eddie. Eddie should have left for a while like Jericho or Angle did. They are the guys on the roster who are expected to put on the longest, most realistic looking matches. The work horses if you will. But doing those kinds of matches nearly every night adds up over the years. Eddie would have been well advised to take a break and recuperate. Unfortunately there is no off season in the WWE, so that's not really possible. So I feel Josh left out a lot of points that should have been mentioned in regards to Guerrero's death.

This segment wasn't Josh's best work. He had an interesting point to make, but didn't execute it very articulately imo. But I still love Chair Shot Reality.

 

[MVP12]

The point that isenberg made was that these ppl should not be commended for their actions and they shouldn't be... Guess what guys thousands of other wrestlers before benoit took chairshots to the head too... He wasn't the only one... Foley's put his body through way more... I commend WWE from banning shots to the head... Everyone should realize these measures are enacted so that wrestlers live longer... I don't wanna jericho or orton or any guys dying at 45... I'm not saying that there weren't other factors in those guys deaths what i'm saying is that there lives were not ones that kids should idolize... You know what for everything benoit did in the ring, ppl will only now remember him for the murder... Eddie was apparently clean for about 1-2 years before his death...He is a bad role model... You know why cause do u want your kids growing and abusing alcohol to a point where their wife leaves them or they have severe alcohol and pain killer addiction... You probably don't... That's why he isn't... I give him all the credit in the world for quitting his addiction but the trauma that he probably gave vickie and their family probably wasn't easy for them to bear either... So understand where i'm coming from and realize that they are in no way marketable or good role models.... Guess what guys they made millions of dollars in their day... We cheered our asses off for them in their day... They got what they deserved and now we simply need to move on...

Notice how you said benoit is only remembered for murder, when people still remember him most for his wrestling....and as for eddie goes i do understand where you are coming from ONLY if eddie was still on pain killers/steroids and all the bad drugs he took..but he wasnt so he got clean...he was telling kids dont go down the same path that i did...learn from my mistakes, its not like he was encouraging kids to drink and do drugs...and was a great influence cause there might be kids addicted to drugs or alcohol and see eddie get over and say if he did i can too...pretty good role model if you ask me ...to get on your last part...they didnt deserve to die like that...benoit didnt do anything bad prior to the killings and everything, and Eddie didnt really either well like i said that was behind him...let us remember eddie and not just move on thats dumb to say lets just move on, so we arent supposed to remember them? so bringing up their names means we havent moved on? give me a break

 

[Heartbreak_Kid_707]

While i still say i dont stand for what Benoit did...lets just say this post is about the murder, isnt about the drug use...none of that...Lets say im talking only and souley about thier IN RING performaces...

Yes, both were great wrestlers, B-U-T, were they both really good enough to be in the Hall od Fame? Eddie had many many off nights...To be a HoF'er you have (or atleast should be) a mulitple World Champion, bring your A game every night...

Benoit, TYes he did "finally" win the title, but how long did it take him??should someone wrestle for years and years and years before winning a big title and still be a HoF'er??

I may be the only one thinking this but i dont believe niether was destined for HoF if the trajedies hadnt happened...

 

[Kaneanite]

I agree with Heartbreak kid. I don't think either Benoit or Eddie were hall of fame material. Did Eddie get in after he died? I forget. If he did, I mean this in the nicest way possible, it was because he died. I don't think he makes the hall of fame if he lives and just finishes his career. Same with Benoit.

 

[CB429]

Notice how you said benoit is only remembered for murder, when people still remember him most for his wrestling....and as for eddie goes i do understand where you are coming from ONLY if eddie was still on pain killers/steroids and all the bad drugs he took..but he wasnt so he got clean...he was telling kids dont go down the same path that i did...learn from my mistakes, its not like he was encouraging kids to drink and do drugs...and was a great influence cause there might be kids addicted to drugs or alcohol and see eddie get over and say if he did i can too...pretty good role model if you ask me ...to get on your last part...they didnt deserve to die like that...benoit didnt do anything bad prior to the killings and everything, and Eddie didnt really either well like i said that was behind him...let us remember eddie and not just move on thats dumb to say lets just move on, so we arent supposed to remember them? so bringing up their names means we havent moved on? give me a break

If we would've moved on then Josh isenbergs comments wouldn't have caused such an uproar... We need to move on means u watch their matches but do it in the privacy of your home... Don't complain to wwe that you're not promoting these guys anymore... I never said that they deserved to die... dunno where u got that... WHile they were alive they were 2 of my fav guys in the wwe... i especially followed all of benoits career especially in wcw... Point with benoit is that one killing defined his life... Whatever he achieved in wrestling will always be outweighed by the killings... I \'m not saying that he won't be remembered... If you're putting up a conversation of best in ring wrestlers, i would throw his name in there... But the murder will always be brought up... That's what i meant.. Anyways eddie didn't really get that chance to really make amends.. His wwe character was atrocious at the time before his death... Like the rey's son angle...Probably the worst thing thing i've seen done... It was appalling to me that they did that storyline... My point with eddie is that he's not a good role model for the wwe... Let's face it he did have an addiction and while that great to addicts it doesn't really do much for the 8 year old who's gonna bring a lie,cheat and steal shirt... My point was towards them being role models and i hate to say but we don't know how long eddies sobriety would have lasted... He was really 1-2 years into it and its kinda weird that he just died all of sudden due to heart failure... That's pure speculation... I don't know the exact details surrounding his death but you or me definitely cannot guarantee whether he was still consuming alcohol or painkillers at the time... Only reason eddie got the title was cause lesnar/goldberg were leaving and wwe were desperate for a wrestling guy to take the title... If lesnar woud've stayed who knows how glorified eddie's career would've been... I dunno i really can't say eddie would be a role model for me...

 

[MVP12]

I never said that you said they deserved to die...i was talking about how you said they got what they deserved...thats the part i was talking about. Now re-reading it, it makes more sense to me in the fact that, that's not what you meant by that statement. Ok now that i think about it...lie cheat and steal..not the best saying for a kid lol but i was talkin more on how he overcame his addiction and made his life better and helped spread the word that drugs and alochol are bad... The whole lesner and goldberg thing is pure speculation too because people can say all they want about it but you dont know if something would have happend down the line where they could have held the titles lesner and goldberg were there...

 

[HBKevin]

I agree with Heartbreak kid. I don't think either Benoit or Eddie were hall of fame material. Did Eddie get in after he died? I forget. If he did, I mean this in the nicest way possible, it was because he died. I don't think he makes the hall of fame if he lives and just finishes his career. Same with Benoit.

Yes, Eddie was inducted, by Rey Mysterio, I believe the year after, in 2006. I think Eddie and Benoit were more than HOF material, even if they had lived a normal lifespan. It's not exactly an exclusive Hall of Fame. The WWE HOF has Koko B. Ware in it, who was basically an 80s enhancement talent with a memorable gimmick.

Considering Eddie and Benoit were certainly two of the best technical wrestlers of the 90s and 2000s, I think they would have made it in without question, as the yearly induction of multiple people leaves them short on big names usually.

Benoit wasn't probably headed toward any more world title reigns outside of WWECW, but Eddie was booked to win the world title on Smackdown again on the weekend of his death. Eddie had more world title gold in his future and was entering a second prime in the year or two before his heart attack. I still miss Eddie a lot. He was the total package. Benoit was one of those guys like Dean Malenko who could put on a wrestling clinic for anyone they faced, but had the charisma of a doorknob.

 

[Rasha]

I don't think either Benoit or Eddie were hall of fame material. Did Eddie get in after he died? I forget. If he did, I mean this in the nicest way possible, it was because he died. I don't think he makes the hall of fame if he lives and just finishes his career. Same with Benoit.

Check out the actual HOF roster sometime. If Greg Valentine and Koko B Ware were HOF material then I think the bar is more than low enough for Benoit and Guerrero. They accomplished more than either guy in their WWE careers alone (both held the World Title once) and also had their WCW careers.

 

[Heartbreak_Kid_707]

I do give credit, bioth were excellent techincal wrestlers but i still think they fell short of HOF enductions...

Yes, the bar is set pretty low with SOME of the talent in the HOF, but they were there cause of thier charisma or because of thier character...You have to have a good reason to be there...