Your perception of WCW's control of the NWA and NWA World's title from 1990 until '93

[One to Remember]

I love WCW but I was not old enough nor did I have the stations to view World Championship Wrestling in its early early years. I've been thinking more and more about how Raw and Smackdown guys have popped up on each others' show and how that cheapens both WWE titles because of the rationale that led to the title splinter. How was WCW when it had two world titles? Did you feel the champions were equal? What did you think of actually seeing two champions? The thing i like was the two titles actually represented companies and not brands. How was the WCW-NWA struggle portrayed on tv ? Did you feel like it was a good way to elevate two guys at once?

 

[boozinjedi]

I actually remember it a bit differently,

I remember that the NWA title morphed into the WCW title as Turner got more and more into it.

I also remember that a few years later the NWA title was brought back as almost as a secondary title.

I think Crockett let Turner use the name as a way to bridge the gap and maintain the history of the title,but eventually I think they had a falling out and the NWA went on as an indy promotion for awhile,which led to a torunament in which Shane Douglas after winning it,threw it down and from that ECW was born.

I could be messing a few things up,BUT I think some here will eventually correct any historical mistakes I may have made.

 

[czar76]

There was no struggle at all. For a while after Turner took over the champion was still represented as the NWA champion then slowly it became the WCW title. The NWA belt was defended on a couple of PPV's along with the nwa Tag belts on t.v but it was never clearly explained why. The storyline side had the tag belts being unified with WCW but the NWA does not go along with that. Soon the NWA was gone and what was once the NWA title became the WCW International belt and there was no further mention of the NWA. The International belt was later unified with the WCW world title. The NWa tag belts were never explained away they just went away. I watched WCW every week in those days and they never made any effort to explain any of it. Not that they should have but it was a bit confusing. Remember this was before dirt sheets so no one out side of the business had a clue what was going on.

 

[One to Remember]

I mean there was a struggle in court and the indy orginization that the NWA had become sued over their name and titles being used. Czar your saying you were watching a show called WCW with NWA titles? Like New Jpn and its IWGP titles? Then the NWA tag belts started getting called the WCW tag belts? The WCW title was the top title then all of a sudden there was an NWA champ again and he showed up out of no where? No back story at all?

 

[The Suplexer Perfecter]

There was no struggle at all. For a while after Turner took over the champion was still represented as the NWA champion then slowly it became the WCW title. The NWA belt was defended on a couple of PPV's along with the nwa Tag belts on t.v but it was never clearly explained why. The storyline side had the tag belts being unified with WCW but the NWA does not go along with that. Soon the NWA was gone and what was once the NWA title became the WCW International belt and there was no further mention of the NWA. The International belt was later unified with the WCW world title. The NWa tag belts were never explained away they just went away. I watched WCW every week in those days and they never made any effort to explain any of it. Not that they should have but it was a bit confusing. Remember this was before dirt sheets so no one out side of the business had a clue what was going on.

The NWA title did not become the WCW title. The NWA title still exists. After WCW officially pulled out of the NWA they held that tournament which ended with Shane Douglas throwing down the title in ECW.

 

[GameOver]

WCW succeeded from NWA in 1991 3 yrs after they changed the name to World Championship Wrestling, b4 that it was still NWA and Jim Crocket Promotions.
at that point the WCW title was made and presented to Ric Flair.

conicidentally TNA started with a NWA title too and then they dumped it in the trash aka Alundra Blaze and the WWF womens title and made the TNA title.

(1991-1993) During this time there was 2 champions NWA and WCW Heavyweight Champions and most of those titles ended in Flair unifying the titles, most of which aren't recognized in the record books. so his 16 title reigns is closer to 21. NWA didn't recognize the unified championships or something to that effect

there was also NWA and WCW world tag champs as Czar76 said.

and eventually NWA and WCW severed all ties.

 

[Peoples_Trashman]

When Flair Left an Went to WWF the first time he took the big gold belt with him Proclaiming himself as the "real world Champion".. an so WCW made their own belt when he came back since htey already had a World title. He lost is belt to Rick Rude Which was Named "the International Heavy Weight Title".. and I believe sting won it from him an it became one with he World Heavyweight title

 

[czar76]

WCW was the name of Jim Crocketts group while under the NWA. Turner bought the company and the name and dropped out of the NWA. All past NWA champions were regconized by WCW. The champion was one and the same until WCW broke from the NWA.

And to the question of their being no on air struggle there simply wasn't one. There were two champions and then there was one. Turner bought into the company around 1988 not sure when full control was gained but I think it was around '91. So for the first few years the NWA champion and WCW champion were the same.

 

[Inittowinit]

It is similar to what happened in TNA. they were a member of the NWA but the didnt want to basically pay for a name. They decided to have their own champion. To explain it Rick Rude was the WCW international champion, which if correct me if I am wrong, was a reason as well as NWA didnt want Rude as champion.

 

[One to Remember]

The WCW International World title came about be ause WCW had pretaped Rick Rude as the NWA World champion and the court ruling occured after that.WCW had to explain the Big Gold Belt around him. How were Rude, Windham, and other NWA champs treated on screen? I know Rude was a top name. I kno for a fact the Mid Atlantic NWA tag belts became the WCW tag belts and I think during Sting's first WCW title reign the belt also represented his last NWA title reign. One has a starting point in 1948 and the other in 1990 though. Did anyone ever see the NWA U.S. tag or Six Man tag tesm titles defended?

 

[Smifnwesson]

Jim Crockett Promotion was the biggest largest member Of The NWA when Turner had purchased the company. Since Crockett had purchased the old florida territory,central state and Bill Watts's UWF and World Class had pulled out of the NWA. When Sting had won the NWA title from Ric Flair at the Great America Bash and Lost it back to Ric Flair in the Meadowslands in New Jersey , Ric Flair was the first WCW and had regain the NWA title. When Ric Flair left WCW he was still the NWA and WCW Champ and was stripped of the NWA title when he appeared on WWF television but he never lost the title, the title was legally his since his deposit for the belt was not returned to him.

 

[One to Remember]

He owned the big gold belt. They did not refund is 25 grand. Im just trying to vet everyones reactions to seeing two World titles way back then.

 

[Smifnwesson]

Honestly to me, I wasn't excited since the NWA title had lost some of it's prestige during that time. In my opinion having multiple world titles dilutes the value of both titles. Now I will admit I was excited to see Barry Windham win the title from Great Muta but sad because I knew he wasn't going to be a featured champion like Ric Flair was.

 

[One to Remember]

But see that's the thing, like with WWE the lesser title used the Big Gold Belt so that in your eyes did not let it compensate¿ WCW did not have two world titles, it had its own and the NWAs was featured.

 

[FlairFan2003]

OK. The NWA Title was basically the champion of all the independent wrestling companies that affiliated as the National Wrestling Alliance. Jim Crockett Jr, head of Jim Crockett Promotions, was essentialy the head of the NWA. It was JC Promotions that owned the air time on Saturday Nights on TBS, known in the 70s and 80's as World Championship Wrestling. This was the home of the biggest stars from the NWA territories because of the constant national TV exposure, which of course lead to bigger house shows and the annual supershows like Starrcade and Great American Bash.


Ric Flair routinely traveled to each independent, defending against that company's top star, in addition to his regular touring with Crockett run shows (he also wrestled extensively overseas but that was often on his own time, not affiliated with the NWA). By 1986 however, Crockett, not wanting to share his top star with the independents, started restricting Flair's appearances on non Crockett Promotions events. He still wrestled about as often, but now he was main eventing as NWA Champ almost exclusively for Crockett.

Both Crockett & Vince were buying up talent from the independents like crazy during this time and as we all know by the early 90s the independents were pretty much gone.

Turner bought the the Crockett Promotions end of the NWA in late 1988. Little changed on TV over the next two years as the wrestlers etc were referred to as NWA stars and the titles wore the NWA brand. There was still a Board Of Directors of old NWA promoters but they held little clout with the Crockett-less company.

Turner and his TV execs wanted to re-brand the wrestling program, feeling that National Wrestling Alliance seemed too small as opposed to World Wrestling Federation. Since the Sat night TBS prime time show was already called World Championship Wrestling they simply used that name, effectively re-branding the titles simply by calling them WCW titles. This took effect in early 1991, Ric Flair is usually credited as being called the first WCW Champion after he beat Sting in Jan although effectively it was the same title from the same promotion. With the independents dying the NWA Board was almlost powerless at this point. The company most associated with the NWA brand, run by Crockett Promotions and showcased on TBS, was the same company, only now they were called WCW and owned by Turner Broadcasting.

There was some rumbling by the old Board when Flair left for the WWF in the summer of 91, basically stating that WCW never should have fired him and since he never lost the World Title he was still their champion. Few fans even noticed this however as WCW crowned Lex Luger. Although there were considerable problems with fans due to Flair's absence no one failed to recognize Luger as champion. At this point the NWA board is completely out of the World Title picture altogether.

In 1993 the Board reconstituted and attempted to re promote as the NWA. Ironically, Turner owned WCW gave them a showcase on their programming and allowed WCW contracted wrestlers to compete for new re-constituted NWA titles. The whole thing was terribly confusing to fans, and by the end of 93 WCW officially dropped any affiliation with the new NWA. However, they had heavily invested in promoting the NWA Title as a top singles title. Rather than just have the title fail to exist WCW basically co-opted the new title, re named The International Title, and promoted it ahead of the US Title as the No. 2 title in the company. The NWA Board, not impressed, did not recognize this as their title (WCW didnt care if they did) and already cut off TBS, etc, attempted to re-organize again with new champions.

WCW quickly realized that fans were still confused, wasnt an International Champion the same as a World Champion ? Booking wise WCW was looking at a way to unify the titles and was tilting towards an Sting-Flair feud that would end with Sting unifying the belts and being WCW Champion. They were also trying Rick Rude, who was International Champion for awhile, as a fan favorite in a feud vs Vader and considering how much impact he should have on the World Title scene. Of course when Flair convinced Hogan to sign and Rude suffered a career ending injury those plans were changed.

Sting ended up with the International Title, beating Vader in Rude's absence and subsequently lost the heavily promoted Unification Match against his friend and partner Flair, the reigning WCW Champ, which set up Flair's heel turn so he would be the bad guy when Hogan arrived. The two titles were merged in June 94 when Flair pinned Sting at Clash Of Champions, and there was never any mention of the Inernational Title ever again.

 

[One to Remember]

WCW never had an "internatiOnal" title they promoted the big gold belt as "WCW International's" World title... that came about due to a court ruling forcing themto drop the nwa name from their program...

 

[FlairFan2003]

WCW never had an "internatiOnal" title they promoted the big gold belt as "WCW International's" World title... that came about due to a court ruling forcing themto drop the nwa name from their program...

Absolutely wrong - check your old WCW tapes, review your old magazines. The International Title was represented by the Big Gold Belt but it was the newly recreated NWA Title, when the NWA started promoting as it's own entity, and WCW allowed them time on their programs. That's why you had Rick Rude facing Ric Flair for the NWA Title on the same PPV Vader defended the WCW World Title.

When the whole NWA thing fell apart WCW didnt want to just eliminate that title so it was re-dubbed The WCW International Title which Sting, Vader, and Rude all feuded over while Ric Flair was WCW World Champion feuding with Ricky Steamboat and Barry Whyndam. WCW was already looking into merging the two titles as they were essentially the same before Hogan joined, they just were not sure who would face Flair in the Unification Match (WCW had major plans for Rude before his injury, not sure if they would have continued his face turn full fledged or not). As it was with Rude injured and Hogan's arrival immienent WCW decided to have Sting get the International Title, Flair turn on him, and set up a Unification Match which takes place at the June 94 Clash Of Champions (WWE put the match on one of their Flair retrosepctive DVD sets, though Flair doesnt complete turning on Sting until after the match, allowing Hogan to make the save). Flair wins, unifying the belts, giving him momentum into his big PPV match with Hogan.

The only court ruling in question was wether or not Flair coulkd keep the gold belt when he went to WWE in 91. WCW sued him, and WWE for using the belt in their TV programs, but eventually WCW had to pay Flair to get the belt back due to some money issues they had not resolved with him before they let him go.

 

[One to Remember]

i dont need to check tapes. WCW never had an International title, WCW International had its own World title. WCW had to stop using the NWA name on tv because a circuit court ordered they stop. Turner probably thought the NWA name was apart of his purchase.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

I agree with FlairFan2003 on most points.

Turner purchases JCP and keeps everything the same for awhile. Starting in 1991 he drops the NWA name and creates all titles as WCW titles. Ric Flair is the first WCW Heavyweight champ. At this time he is also the NWA Heavyweight champ. They were not the same title, a fact evident in March when Tatsumi Fujinami defeats Flair for the NWA title but not the WCW title. Records for both belts show that the titles were in fact seperate. Flair would regain the title two monthes later.

Now on to July 1991 wheere Flair is fired and stripped of the WCW title but not the NWA title. He would not lose that until he officially signed and appeared in the WWF in Sep 1991. Again the records for both belts show the difference in dates, proving they were never the same title.

Now the NWA title would remain vacated until August of 1992. The NWA came to an agreement with WCW and NJPW to host a tournament to crown a new champ. The tournement was held at NJPW's G1 Climax tournement, with Masahiro Chono winning it. Chono would hold the title until until Jan 93, defending it primarilly in Japan but also at some WCW events such as Halloween Havoc 92( vs Rude ) and Starcade 92( vs Muta ). He would lose it to Muta in Jan 93, who would then lose it to Windham in Feb 93. Now we get to the gist of the question.

Now we have the NWA World champ and the WCW World champ working for the same company. At PPVs and events both titles are offen defended on the same card. So at this time there are two world titles being represented in one company, much like today.

Now lets fast forward to Sep 93. WCW and the NWA begin disagreeing on how to promote the NWA title. Disputes are such as the NWA champ( Flair at the time and under contract to WCW ) needs to be allowed to defend the title at NWA events. This would be a arguement that the NWA and WWF would have in the late 90s during the NWA invasion angle. Also the NWA does not want Rude as champ while WCW wants to make the change.( I have read this but do not know it as a fact ) So now the WCW pulls out of the NWA officially. I believe there was a court ruling stating that WCW loses all rights to use the NWA lettering and name, but since they own the physical title they can keep using that. In late Sep 93 Rude defeats Flair at Fall Brawl, but since it is no longer the NWA title and has no title it is refered to as 'The Big Gold Belt'. It would be called this I belive until Oct 93. All through the Fall Brawl match they say how both men want the belt, not any actual title.

So here we will stop for a moment. Up until this point we have had two world champs, much like today. However, the difference is that they are two world titles for two different entities. The NWA and WCW were two different groups representing two different titles, unlike today where we have two world titles representing one company.

Ok, so now WCW needs to come up with a name for the title so they create the WCW International board and say that Rude is the WCW International World Heavyweight Champion. It would later be shortened to the WCW International World Championship( so in a sence both FlairFan2003 and One to Remember are both right ) and would remain a title until unified with the WCW world title.

So, my opinion is that when it was the NWA and WCW titles it was ok. They were titles representing different companies that happened to be defended in one company. It was an odd arrangement but one I could live with. Once it became two world titles under one company it became unrealistic and did not last. I did not care for it. One company/one champion. I feel the same way today, only now the WWE is so dominant and large that they can get away with what WCW could not. Still don't like it.

On more thing I would touch on is why WCW would help the NWA get reestablished in 92. This is all opinion.

I believe that WCW agreed to work with NWA for a few reasons. One is that the NWA was still regarded as a World title in Japan. That is why NJPW was willing to agree to work with the NWA. WCW also had a woking agreement with NJPW and wanted their title to be regarded as highly as the NWA. Also WCW never officially left the NWA in 91, so it worked for all involved. Second there was still some confusion regarding the switching of the titles. I myself refused to call the WCW titles by that name and rather still refered to them as NWA titles. While I don't think they did it to placate me even magazines at the time were confused as how to move forward and up to a point were still refering to WCW titles as NWA titles. This was a way for WCW to create a seperation for themselves.

 

[One to Remember]

I'm not sure when Rude's title victory was aired but thought it had been pre taped about 75 days prior? I dont see how a subsidiary differs from a brand like ECW or a territory like WCW in 1991 or the WWWF in 1975? But which champion was higher ranking and did the NWA. champ claim to represent anything?

 

[FlairFan2003]

Rude's title win was on the Sept 93 PPV - It was not the main event but was one of the top featured matches. Rude ends up eventually feuding with Vader and there was some discussion about a face turn for him but his injuries basically prevented that from happening. He might have been he one to unify the International & WCW Titles if not for his career ending.

With Rude out of the picture Sting was hastily thrown in, although by this time WCW was in negotiations with Hogan. Either way WCW wanted to unify the two titles, the question was who would win. Once Hogan signed it was an easy choice, have fan favorite Flair unify the belts, pin sting, and turn heel giving him a big momentum win heading into his PPV match vs Hogan, also allowing Hogan to be the clear cut good guy in the match.


If Rude didnt get hurt and Hogan didnt join we may have seen an al out Rude-Flair fued over unifying the titles, but it never happened

 

[FlairFan2003]

As far as who had the higher ranking when both titles were represented on WCW TV 1992-93, it was clearly WCW. Vader as champion of WCW was always pushed ahead of any NWA Title Matches and was portrayed on WCW TV as the top champ. By the time he lost the WCW Title to Flair in ec 93 the whole NWA re-start experiment was over. The WCW International Title was never pushed as equal to the WCW World Title. Just like Vader got top billing over NWA championship matches Flair got top billing as WCW Champ over International Title Matches. The two belts in name represented the same thing but in WCW's eyes The International Title was essentiallly a secondary belt, like the Intercontinental or US Title.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

I'm not sure when Rude's title victory was aired but thought it had been pre taped about 75 days prior? I dont see how a subsidiary differs from a brand like ECW or a territory like WCW in 1991 or the WWWF in 1975? But which champion was higher ranking and did the NWA. champ claim to represent anything?

No, the NWA and WCW parted ways in early Sep 93. Rude wins 'title' from Flair on Sep 19th, 1993 at Fall Brawl. At this point the title is for nothing and if you listen to the call of the match you will hear the announcers only refer to the 'title' as the BIG GOLD BELT.

I am not sure I follow your second points but I will attempt to answer. The difference between the NWA/WCW relationship in 92-93 and the ECW/WWE relationship of a few years ago is that in the former it was two seperate entities controling two different belts where in the latter it was one company( WWE ) controling both. People saw this and it is why we have no ECW today.

Now, with the WWWF and NWA in the 70s yes, the WWWF was part of the NWA but both seperate companies recognized the others world champ. Often times both belts were defended on the same card, both being called World Titles. In fact the WWWF and NWA had World Title vs World Title matches in the late 70s/early 80s. Race(NWA) vs Graham(WWWF), Race(NWA) vs Backland(WWWF) and Flair(NWA) vs Backland(WWF) all took place in title vs title matches with both companies participating. What we had in the WCW in 93/94 was a company trying to pass off two World champs in one company.

As far as who had the higher ranking when both titles were represented on WCW TV 1992-93, it was clearly WCW. Vader as champion of WCW was always pushed ahead of any NWA Title Matches and was portrayed on WCW TV as the top champ. By the time he lost the WCW Title to Flair in ec 93 the whole NWA re-start experiment was over. The WCW International Title was never pushed as equal to the WCW World Title. Just like Vader got top billing over NWA championship matches Flair got top billing as WCW Champ over International Title Matches. The two belts in name represented the same thing but in WCW's eyes The International Title was essentiallly a secondary belt, like the Intercontinental or US Title.

The only point I would like to lightly disagree with is the implication that the WCW title was always treated better then the NWA title. Now I will agree that the WCW themselved veiwed their title as better they treated the NWA title very well and with much importance from Feb 93 until Sep 93 when ways were parted. At only one PPV were both titles defended, Slamboree 93, and the WCW title went last. However the NWA title was given the more interesting matchup and the better buildup/backstory. Vader defended against the newly arrived Davey Boy Smith with no real buildup. The NWA title was defended by Windham vs Arn Anderson with much emphasis being but on the fact that both were former partners in the Four Horsemen and how Anderson never was world champ. After that it was Flair vs Windham while the WCW title was not defended at the next two PPVs.

WCW put their title ahead on the card but they treated the NWA title with the respect it deserved.