You Owe Daniel Bryan An Apology

[GeneralKarim]

Lol here come the haters, you guys are pathetic. ( obvious LoL with a straight face like 90% of them )

I am all for everybody having their opinion but I dunno what you are on if you do not like Daniel Bryan and think he is mid carder, SHOVED in the main event.

I mean we keep clamouring for new talent, new faces of the WWE.People who can carry the company for the next ~10 years.And when we get em we start insulting them ( we as in "you" ) and finding faults and saying they are shoved and such.

Well in this day and age I dont think wrestlers have the time to get over like in the past.I mean most of the guys coming up are like already in their 30s ( besides the shield ).I mean I dunno who is with me on this one but I find TItus O' Neil extremely entertaining and I love his attitude ( sorry Darren you are bland ( ) , but the guy is still 35 years old and aint getting any young and aint getting any better angles.

Ok, kinda went off a bit there, but my point is although some wrestlers needed to be shot up ( like Sheamus , who is over despite what some people where say ) to get in a position to be over , Daniel Bryan is not one of those. The guy has payed his dues, for many years on the indies and he payed his dues in WWE.( he is way more over as a heel and as a face then Miz - his manager - has ever been ).

And people, do you kow what a hyperbole is? He doesnt actually want you to apologize, holy satan's head on a stick did you actually think that?

As for me, I didnt know how Bryan Danielson was.I only got into wrestling 7 years ago almost.Obv my fist favourite wrestler was Cena as he was the first I saw, that changed pretty quickly tho, for obvious reasons.

But I saw the hype the man got , so I'm guessing people dont get that hyped up about nothing so I watch him, studied him, and boy did I love what I saw.Even when he was the vanilla face, his matches alone made me like him, Hell for someone so vanilla, he cut some damn good promos on NXT, those were the moments u saw a glimpse of what the man can do.

 

[ADLegend21]

I had no idea who the hell Bryan Danielsson or Daniel Bryan was until the first ever episode of NXT. when I herd the WWE's "stats" on him how he spent ten years in the minors, I liked him. I also liked that he was the Miz's Rookie. I think the Miz helped him in terms of charisma and making a splash out of the ropes (IE attacking Michael Cole) because there's nothing the Miz could teach him in the ring. I honestly think him choking out Justin Roberts was the best thing that happened for him cuz if that hadn't happened he'd have been stuck in Nexus, under wade Barrett. I was at TLC in 2011 when he cashed in. The start of the whole Yes thing and 1st Mariner Arena POPPED when his music hit after Big Show vs Mark Henry. He was Over then but now he's so damn over I can't think of anyone who'd get cheered over him outside of a partisan crowd for a hometown star.

 

[Cohn_Jena]

I'd like to see Dolph Ziggler drop the title to Daniel Bryan at maybe Survivor Series or HIAC, CM Punk to win the next Royal Rumble then challenge Bryan at Wrestlemania. They're close friends and probably WWE's best superstars right now so their chemistry added to their ability could create one of the best WM matches ever

 

[Uncle Sam]

Sorry to disagree with the consensus of "I knew he'd get over if they let him get over". I think that downplays the input people behind the scenes in WWE would have had in developing the character.

I know it's a reasonably unpopular opinion to have, at least in some parts, but I actually feel that the contribution that the writing team and the time to adjust to the 'WWE style,' etc. is overestimated. I suppose that was pretty much the point of my opening post.

I have read the rest of your post, by the by, and would like to think I've taken it all on board, but I'll be trying to respond to it without quoting it sentence-for-sentence. For my next trick...

Kaval is an example of how to do it wrong, to be impatient and arrogant (allegedly). Actually, watching Bryan's success now, it makes me wonder why he didn't stick around and not bail the second he wasn't pushed to Jupiter. Bryan's humility and, well, patience have certainly served him better, but I don't think that makes this Daniel Bryan any further removed from the badass, submission specialist that walked through the door than it does Kaval from the... well, you see where I'm going with this.

Long-term planning isn't something I often give WWE credit for, and I'm not going to start now. Other than when they're forced to (e.g. The Rock only being able to wrestle two or three times a year) I don't think they do it. If they do do it, they don't do it very well. If Daniel Bryan's career is an example of WWE's long-term planning, then it shows that they don't do it very well. He's been given a lot of good stuff to work with recently, but he had to slog through so much seemingly random garbage to get there. I could accept that somebody backstage has always liked him (why else give him the money in the bank briefcase?) but it hasn't always come across onto television.

I'm not saying that WWE hasn't added anything to his repertoire - he finally stopped saying "OK?" at the end of every sentence - but I fail to see a huge distinction between the Daniel Bryan that handed The Shield their first loss on 'Friday night' and the Bryan Danielson that knocked Nigel McGuinness unconscious to end a match seven years ago.

I came on just because of this topic and your post, Its what I'd expect from a high schooler doing better than normal in a class they were always failing and decided to be smug about it online.

Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you, only--

To the next point Daniel Bryan is the same as CM Punk to me, Mid-card players who got forced up, I'll always see them as Mid-card players they were when they came in, they're like AJ they were forced up and people bought into it.

I'll admit they have great talent but i dont see why anyone should be into them(Or why I should). I havent seen anyone High on either one of them until they were written in to do something huge. Thats all I see here, people jumping from one ship to another when its full of crap.

I'm an unbiased wrestling fan, I'm not high on a guy because he/she is from the indies doing a great(Ambrose) or completely terrible (AJ Lee) job.

--I was thinking, "My, I bet this guy is really struggling in his finger-painting class."

If Daniel Bryan and, more dubiously still, CM Punk are midcarders, then the structure of WWE goes like this:

Main eventers:

• John Cena
• The Rock
• Brock Lesnar
• Triple H
• The Undertaker

Midcarders:

• Everyone else

Which, I suppose if pushed, one might be able make a case for, but it's not a world I'd want to live in - one where a main eventer is made once every decade, and we have to wait for the main eventer we made ten or fifteen or twenty years to rock up for one match a year.

What's more, you declaring yourself as an "unbiased wrestling fan" is the most bafflingly arrogant thing I have seen in a long time.

Dissect this anyway you want and point out whats not there like everyone else does here.

Do they give out handjobs instead of criticism in comment sections or... just how do you survive there?

Look, people, it's not hard - you be polite to me, I'll be polite back. Yeah? Here, I'll make a list.

Things people should already know:

• If you're polite to someone, they will most likely be polite back.
• Hyperbole is a technique in which exaggeration is used for dramatic effect - not everything is supposed to be taken literally.
• There is no such thing as an unbiased person. If there is, I highly doubt some random bloke who can't handle the tone of posts on a wrestling forum has dug out that particular holy grail. Everyone is affected by biases and the most helpful thing is to accept that instead of walking around and talking about how brilliant you are because you're always disinterested.
• Mothers shouldn't feed their children paint chips. This is one that at least two mothers have been ignoring, so it goes on the list.

I'm sorry if a post aimed at nobody in particular ruffled your feathers, but if you run in here and start shouting the odds, I'm going to point out the dunce cap you're wearing and how nobody should be listening to you.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Had Bryan come in and just used the tools he crafted in ROH he wouldn't have gotten over.

The funny thing is, most of whats got him over he did in ROH and on the indies.

What got Bryan over from the get go? His match with Chris Jericho which had fans praising their performance. What did they build him off? The fact he's a great wrestler, technical and submissive. When did he start to really get over? When he won the World Heavyweight title and his gradual heel turn with the title going to his head, where was that exact same angle done previously with Bryan? ROH. His heel character was the exact same from ROH minus swearing and more graphic comments. Even hug it out was done in ROH between him and Generico.

Same thing with Punk, what got him over got him over on a smaller stage, so when they bring what works for a small gathering of fans to a bigger audience its near enough guaranteed to work. Some things such as the relationship and dynamic with AJ, "YES! NO!" and the anger management storyline also helped get him over and wasn't done previously, but when you have broad enough knowledge of guys pasts and then watch what their doing in WWE, most of the time what gets them liked is what got them liked to a smaller audience.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Same thing with Punk, what got him over got him over on a smaller stage, so when they bring what works for a small gathering of fans to a bigger audience its near enough guaranteed to work. Some things such as the relationship and dynamic with AJ, "YES! NO!" and the anger management storyline also helped get him over and wasn't done previously, but when you have broad enough knowledge of guys pasts and then watch what their doing in WWE, most of the time what gets them liked is what got them liked to a smaller audience.

I wanna touch on the therapy sessions a little here.


Those sessions were produced very differently to any other vignettes in the WWE. There was a weirdly well done production value there,which they tried to recapture with 3MB later on, only to fail miserably.

Thus proving, that it was the characters who made that vignette approach work. It was Bryan, Kane, Shelby (?) who made it work.

You know if we look at Bryan's last year in cliffnotes they would go:

* Won WHC after cashing MiTB

*Beat Big Show AND Mark Henry

*Lost it in record time at Mania

*The Punk match

*Team Hell No


His run with Team Hell No deserves a good chunka credit for where he is now. After a long time, there was a comedy angle done right and bravo to the actors.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Mm, one way in which Daniel Bryan has often been denigrated is in terms of charisma/mike skills/that whole area. I don't know why, because anybody who watched his first three weeks in NXT - or maybe even just heard about them from their mate Dave - could have told you that he wasn't lacking in this area. Michael Cole wasn't the one that lit a fire under Bryan's arse, but nor am I so far gone that I'll say it was the other way around - it was a mutual thing. The same goes for The Miz.

On a related note, The Miz's best match still remains the one in which he lost the US title to Bryan. Far and away. After all this time.

I don't know if it's the stigma attached to him of being an indy guy, and therefore being bland and clueless when it came to the dramatic arts, or if there was some other reason that people have been willfully ignorant. Bryan isn't just good in the ring; Bryan is better than most other people in the ring and better than most other people with a microphone.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Bryan is better than Punk. And I have said this A LOT.

The thing is Bryan doesn't have to drop backstage names and "shoot" and bring up HBK's drug problems to get a pop. What Bryan does is more in sync with the theater aspect of wrestling kayfabely speaking. Bryan has for a long time suspended my disbelief with his antics. Whether he is leaping off onto Jericho and hitting the announcer's deck on NXT or when he is shaking that beard in disbelief, he is doing IT.

Bryan has good matches with anyone, while Punk has ridden on talented, athletic people's coat-tails from ROH to Albright in OVW to Orton, Bryan in WWE.

Bryan is by far THE BEST IN THE WORLD....at what he does to boot.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Mm, one way in which Daniel Bryan has often been denigrated is in terms of charisma/mike skills/that whole area.

------------

I don't know if it's the stigma attached to him of being an indy guy, and therefore being bland and clueless when it came to the dramatic arts, or if there was some other reason that people have been willfully ignorant.

Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The "indy guy" stereotype is good as dead now though, especially when there are a lot of indy guys better than a lot of guys in the WWE, whether that be in the ring, on the mic, through presence and charisma, and I'm certain someone will try to respond to this with, "wel thet cant be tru coz WWE wuld have signd dem by now" but if anyone believes that then their an idiot, WWE doesn't just sign everyone without good cause, if they did Bryan would have been in WWE in 2005 and not 2010.

 

[ccotreau1]

Daniel Bryan reminds me so much of Dean Malenko and Chris Benoit, the way that he is known for his submissions, but at least DB is better on the mic than the other 2 specialists

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Don't tell me what to do UNCLE SAM! You don't own me! I owe Daniel Bryan nothing.

All joking aside...I didn't know much about about him before coming into WWE. all I knew was that he was this mega star from ROH. I read up on him a little bit, listened to what the "experts" had to say, and checked him out.

When he came to WWE I formed my own opinions. I gave him a chance to shine and show me what he could do. I gave him the ball and, not only did he eventually run with it, he scored a touchdown. Granted he fumbled at points in the game, but that was caused by his own "team".

For weeks I sat back...waiting to see the Daniel Bryan I saw in ROH videos. Weeks turned into months. FINALLY I got to see what he could do. He could run the mic like the Rock and Austin, he could step up and wrestle guys twice his size. I didn't need a fake win over someone like Kane to prove to me that he could cut it. I believed that if they met out on the street, he COULD beat Glen Jacobs.

Daniel Bryan made a believer out of me since day 1. I neve doubted him in any way...I just waited for him, and specifically WWE, to show me what he was capable in the ring....wrestling AND mic work.

He proved that, just like some actors in Hollywood, that he was versatile. He could pay the comedic, the hero, or the villian. He was going to be type-casted into ONE central role for the rest of his career like most wrestlers.

 

[LSN80]

I've been, since he debuted, a massive Daniel Bryan fan. Hell, I just recently bought his DVD at WalMart for 5 bucks, and LSN doesn't do DVD's.

I think the thing that came with Bryan, as advertised by most of the dirtsheets, was his lack of charisma and promo ability. But with the way he performed in the ring from day 1, his match with Chris Jericho on the first episode of NXT, I thought: Who cares? This guy can go, and even outshine a World Champion, which Jericho was at the time. But who saw this coming? Bryan not only developing a personality, but between his matches, promos, and backstage segments, becoming the most entertaining act in WWE? I sure didn't. Blame me for buying into dirtsheet nonsense, or, better yet, praise Bryan for proving them wrong, but Bryan has more charisma and promo ability then 90% of the roster. I'm looking at you, CM Punk.

Bryan went from initially a one trick pony with his wrestling ability, as WWE painted him as, to their most versatile performer. He deserves every bit of credit and all the accolades that are presently being heaped on him. He went from a no-nonsense, submissions expert to a working a comedy tag-team to the best performer in the business. I'm a Cena mark through and through, but even I can't deny that Bryan is the most entertaining guy in the business right now. Putting him on Raw and Smackdown every week is a smart move, as it's milking everything they can out of him, and he's delivering in freaking spades.

The Shield said it best: They've put together every mega-power team going in their attempts to defeat them, and the results have always been the same. Turns out, all they had to do was trust the guy who's been there all along, and that has been one Daniel Bryan. After 9 months, what an honor and a huge deal to be the man who ended the streak. It shows incredible faith in him to continue his meteoric rise to the top by having him submit Rollins.

From ROH to now, I've always been a Daniel Bryan fan. But I've underestimated him dearly, and for that Daniel Bryan, I apologize. That being said, now is the time. At Money In The Bank, the man must face either Dolph Ziggler or John Cena, and walk out with gold around his waist.

Daniel Bryan beating John Cena(my favorite wrestler) for the WWE Title? I never thought I'd write that, let alone want to see it happen.

 

[MCMG]

I certainly doubted if he would make it at the very top. I thought the hype, especially on these forums, were over the top but he has proven that he has got the talent in the ring and has shown he is charismatic. I am now a fan of Daniel Bryan, he has converted me and I now feel he is a top star in the WWE.

 

[Syborgg]

While I respect what Daniel "Beardon" has done, to say we doubters owe him an appology, or a hero sandwich of the vegan variety, is a bit of a stretch. I for one didn't doubt him based on his in ring ability. Anyone that didn't know him before WWE(me included) could see that he had technical skills by watching his NXT stuff. The biggest reason I doubted him was WWE's history when dealing with "Indy stars" or others that made a name somewhere else. Whether it's the fault of WWE or the fault of said Indy stars that have entitlement issues, one will never truly know.

Now having said all of that, and despite all he has done especially recently, I'm not going to be pre-mature and say that he's made it because he has not...yet. He has yet to win the WWE title(Which may happen) and he has to prove that he has what it takes to get to the next level and then elevate himself some more. By that I mean get to the main event and not only stay in the main event, but make that main event better. Make us fans want to buy PPVs based almost solely on Daniel Bryan. Once he's done that then I'll apologize for doubting him.

 

[The Champ]

I have no problem admitting that I did not think Daniel Bryan would get to this level as a babyface, back when he was an extremely generic one circa 2010.

He's done a tremendous job. His work in the past few weeks in particular has just been unbelievably good. Great matches week after week after week, along with strong promo work to match.

I just hope they don't turn him heel and ruin this incredible wave of momentum he's riding. He deserves a shot to be a main event babyface.

 

[Nikeo]

The funny thing is, most of whats got him over he did in ROH and on the indies.

What got Bryan over from the get go? His match with Chris Jericho which had fans praising their performance. What did they build him off? The fact he's a great wrestler, technical and submissive. When did he start to really get over? When he won the World Heavyweight title and his gradual heel turn with the title going to his head, where was that exact same angle done previously with Bryan? ROH. His heel character was the exact same from ROH minus swearing and more graphic comments. Even hug it out was done in ROH between him and Generico.

Same thing with Punk, what got him over got him over on a smaller stage, so when they bring what works for a small gathering of fans to a bigger audience its near enough guaranteed to work. Some things such as the relationship and dynamic with AJ, "YES! NO!" and the anger management storyline also helped get him over and wasn't done previously, but when you have broad enough knowledge of guys pasts and then watch what their doing in WWE, most of the time what gets them liked is what got them liked to a smaller audience.

I've got to disagree with a lot of that. Specifically: "Same thing with Punk, what got him over got him over on a smaller stage, so when they bring what works for a small gathering of fans to a bigger audience its near enough guaranteed to work."

I don't mean to sound like a dick, as your posts have shown you're certainly no fool, but that statement is fairly ridiculous to me.

I think you'll find that what works on a smaller scale in wrestling, and then gets over in the big leagues, is actually historically very rare. Public Enemy. Worked in ECW, didn't work anywhere else. Sandman/Hak in WCW and later WWE.

That's a very basic list but there are an awful lot more examples.

The WWE is vey, very different from ROH or even TNA. It all comes down to demographics, they are the be all and end all in pro-wrestling today and I don't think many fans really understand that. ROH's fanbase, primarily, is 18-35 year old smarks. Their product represents this on every level. What's going to work and get over with those guys is not necessarily going to work in the WWE. It might appease one segment of WWE fans but that's not much good to the company.

To use an example: If an ROH spot-fest match was put on in the WWE I don't think the fans would be into it. Even if they were, it'd be the death of the WWE. ROH, in my point of view, lacks selling. Madden said it recently, in one of the few times in my life I've agreed with him, they don't sell these big high-impact shots and that diminishes their value.

I know CM Punk began honing his gimmick in ROH and the other indies but I don't think that's enough of a case to prove your point. His gimmick worked because it hadn't been done before and it was original. To be honest though, it didn't work right away. For me, it's a common myth that Punk circa-2008 was a main-event level face. I don't think he was, he was a failure in his first run. Blame booking, blame his opponents, blame whoever you want but Punk was not a main-event star until the Hardy feud.

I understand the straight edge heel gimmick was also used in ROH but, trust me, had Punk gone out there and used that gimmick against 95% of the WWE roster it wouldn't have built the level of momentum that it did againt Hardy. Cashing in on the fan's darling in Hardy is what put Punk into Main-Event level. Imo, the gimmick certainly helped but look how it fared against 'Taker the first time. It really didn't work all that well.

As Punk progressed and the gimmick has evolved it has certainly worked. He's taken different facets and worked them into his gimmick. That's why it's working in the WWE, he's adapted it to fit the audience. If Punk was doing a mirror-version of his ROH gimmick it wouldn't have worked.

I know I'm getting off topic a bit but I think the example of Punk for "what works in small leagues works in big leagues" is kind of flawed in a few ways.

I'm not extremely well versed in Bryan's ROH character, I've only seen some matches and promos, but I've probably seen a lot more than most WWE die-hards. I was familiar with his work prior to the WWE, put it that way.

I'm not going to deny that the technical skills Bryan honed in ROH haven't been a huge factor in how he got over, that's not an argument I think anyone can make.

Had you said: What gets a lot of indy guys over is when they take what they've been doing and adapt it to the WWE's style. I'd have agreed, that does indeed work a lot of the time. Complete transference of the indy character, historically, hasn't worked.

You can't appeal to the masses with what appeals to the smarks. Some of it will work, yes, but certainly not everything. It's like the AJ/Kaitlyn segment from last week. Smark fans shit all over it. They don't realise that the segment wasn't meant to appeal to them. It's a storyline designed to appeal to the young girls who watch the product, much in the same way Lay-Cool was a while ago.

It didn't get over with the smark fans (AJ/Kaitlyn), hence it's missing a chunk of the audience, and thus isn't a main-event level storyline.

A truly over character/feud is one that appeals to all of WWE's demographics. You can't/won't do that by doing what has worked solely in ROH/other indies. You need to adapt it for the WWE audience. I think Bryan has blended enough of the old with enough of the new that that is why he's gotten over.

Oh, and to the guys saying Miz/Bryan was a mutual thing. Yeah, it was. After Miz/Cole gave Bryan the initial rub. You shouldn't underestimate what Miz did for the early Bryan character. Yes, it helped the Miz and yes it wouldn't have worked if Bryan hadn't played into it right. However, that character dynamic gave Bryan enough to work with so that he avoided traditional "vanilla babyface" territory.

You can be damn sure that without Miz developing that dynamic, and Cole delivering it excellently from the announce desk, that Bryan wouldn't have gotten over as quickly as he did. If people the crowd hate wage a campaign against you and you're allowed to make them eat their words eventually you're going to get over. It's very basic wrestling-101. Had it not been delivered to perfection by Cole/Miz it wouldn't have worked.

I'm no Miz fan but I think much of Bryan's early success is attriputable to him.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I think you'll find that what works on a smaller scale in wrestling, and then gets over in the big leagues, is actually historically very rare. Public Enemy. Worked in ECW, didn't work anywhere else. Sandman/Hak in WCW and later WWE.

But this isn't ECW. Public Enemy were for all extensive purposes, pretty awful. Their matches weren't very good, their promos were okay, they had a connection with the ECW fanbse which was much different from the WCW fanbase and it didn't work. The things that did work in the WWE and WCW from ECW were the things that WCW and WWE fans could relate to, good wrestling. Hence why Eddie, Benoit, Saturn, Malenko, Jericho and Mysterio did so well when they went to the "big leagues," they weren't Public Enemy who needed a certain type of fan to understand why these two idiots are jumping up and down waving their hands from side to side.

Not to mention, ROH is much better than ECW ever was.

To use an example: If an ROH spot-fest match was put on in the WWE I don't think the fans would be into it. Even if they were, it'd be the death of the WWE. ROH, in my point of view, lacks selling. Madden said it recently, in one of the few times in my life I've agreed with him, they don't sell these big high-impact shots and that diminishes their value.

I read Madden's article, it was his latest and he wasn't referencing any ROH talent when saying that, he reference Bobby Fish the current ROH World Tag Team Champion as the top performer at the show. There is literally nobody anymore in ROH who doesn't really not sell any high-impact move unless it's called for, ROH and WWE are two completely different styles. WWE is slow, lot of restholds unless two guys with similar styles such as Punk and Bryan or even recently Bryan and Rollins come together, ROH is American Strong Style which doesn't call for restholds, it's based of Japanese puro and it's intended to be fast paced and continuitive. There is no correct style of wrestling, it's like acting, improv isn't frowned upon from scripted.

I know I'm getting off topic a bit but I think the example of Punk for "what works in small leagues works in big leagues" is kind of flawed in a few ways.

It really isn't though:

Spoiler

[YOUTUBE]KJapKTHWS_k[/YOUTUBE]

Recognize that promo? Recognize that angle? What got Punk big was the Summer of Punk, both ROH and WWE. You need to experience the CM Punk character from the indies to understand exactly what I'm saying. If you ever got a chance to purchase the ROH Second City Saint compliation you will recognize a lot of stuff he did and said, from the moment he debuted to the Summer of Punk he has said and done before. Not everything, but certain points in his career like the SES was done before with Cabana and Daffney as Second City Saints, he just didn't mimmic Jesus and it wasn't intended to be a cult, it had the same message though, to when he tried to leave with the belt.

You can't appeal to the masses with what appeals to the smarks.

But you can, and they did. When Punk cut that worked shoot this place was hopping, mainstream media was interested and it appealed to smarks more than anyone else and that is why Punk is like the leader of the smarks. Every smark loves CM Punk because he mentioned things that he shouldn't and all that crap. I've already given you examples of how a lot of what got Bryan over he'd already done, and nobody has ever disagreed with that especially anyone truly familiar with his ROH work and character - right now he isn't doing anything that he did before except stealing the show every week and having great matches, but I and others always knew he'd do that in the end.

But a lot of what he did, a lot of what Punk did, worked in WWE to a huge extent. You say that stuff can't appeal to the masses? I disagree, because it very much has dude. They have taken stuff from the "minor leagues" thrown it onto a big stage and everytime, it works. I guarantee if they brought up Kassius Ohno tomorrow and put him with Cesaro, people would get behind them because it's like that cool thing WWE shouldn't be doing but they are.

Unless you have extensive knowledge of eithers characters it's hard to make you understand, but this is my best attempt. I watched them pre-WWE, I knew what they did, it's like when Cult of Personality hit I knew the minute I heard it, "well there's CM Punk" because that was his indy entrance theme.

 

[Nikeo]

I'm not gonna do the multiple quote thing so this might get a little bit muddled up.

To start, your point about the Second City Saints just proved my point: you take something that worked in the indies and adapt it for a WWE audience and you'll find that it works. Why? Because it's something they've already done and they've gotten good at whatever it is.

That's the point I'm trying to make and I can't stress it enough: taking an angle already done and adapting it.

You proved my point with the whole ECW/Public Enemy thing. Different audience. Things have to be adapted to fit the audience. That's my point with regards

The cult/Jesus like take on the group was enough to offend families (a sizable portion of the audience) due to the religious undertones, offend the 18 - 35 year olds who were being judged for drinking and there was enough meat in the angle to get it over with a lot of the demographics.

That's my point. It's not true to say "if it works in the smaller companies it'll work in the bigger ones". It needs to be adapted for the audience, the SES was adapted for the WWE demographics. Yes, there were similarities. I'm not disputing that. However, it was adapted for the audience it was intended for. Without the religious undertones I don't think it'd have worked. To be honest, I think they went in that direction when they realised the prior gimmick failed to work post-Hardy.

I know Madden wasn't referring to ROH, though upon a 2nd read of my post I can see how I implied as much, but in a lot of matches I think his criticism applies. I know there are a lot of different wrestling styles, I've never assumed wrestling was confined to the WWE. My criticism stems from an ROH match that always sticks out in my memory. I'm fairly sure it was the Briscoe Brothers Vs Roderick Strong and somebody else who escapes me, possibly Aries. I'm not saying the match wasn't good, I enjoyed it, but it did piss me off. What sticks with me to this day is after a complex series of moves there was a move done off of the top turnbuckle that looked painful. However, the recipient of the move got up not 10 seconds later. After that the move didn't look painful anymore. Yes, there's fast paced wrestling but there's also suspending disbelief and psycology. You can't believe a Super-Kick will keep someone down who five minutes previously jumped up after a high-impact move from the top turnbuckle. You use Rollins/Bryan as an example, I don't remember either one jumping back up after their move from the top turnbuckle.

No, there is no correct style of wrestling. There is, however, a way of making moves appear meaningless.

Yes, Punk's epic promo did set the wrestling world on fire. I don't think that proves that what works for smarks works for the whole audience in every case. Yes, in that case it did work. You put on a show solely aimed at smarks and you'll soon find that your audience has shrunk. Elements work, yes, but not making them the absolute focus of your show. You look at the WWE and you'll notice a trend: Punk/Jericho was to appeal to smarks, Cena/Ryback to families/kids, Kaitlyn/AJ to young girls. It really annoys me when smarks complain about the latter two.....they're not designed to appeal to your demographic.

Smarks, in WWE today, are being catered to. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is that sole focus on appeasing smarks isn't going to appeal to the masses.

Punk, like Bryan, has used stuff from his indy days. He's also blended enough of the old with the new that he's gotten over.

I understand people have a soft-spot for some of the indy feds and characters but that's not to say that a carbon-copy of that character will appeal to all of the WWE's demographics. Facets might be universal, yes, but I have to disagree with you otherwise. In this day and age one can appeal to the smarks and have a WWE career......but if they don't appeal to anyone else they won't be going any further than the midcard.

 

[DB-Fan]

My biggest question right now is whether or not Daniel Bryan and his current push will get derailed after his confrontation with Triple H last night backstage. I've read that it was very, very intense and we all know how proud Hunter is. Will he feel the need to make an example of Bryan to the others backstage by pulling the proverbial rug out from under him? I hope not, but as a fan I'll be keeping a close eye on this.