WWF 1993-2001 Without the Monday Night Wars

[HBKperfect23]

Hypothetically speaking:
Ted Turner doesn't start Nitro. WCW, is still with the NWA and doesnt try to go global (I know they left way before 1993). They are not throwing money at wrestlers left and right. How does that change the New Generation and Attitude eras?


New Generation:
Razor and Diesil never get offered those huge contracts to leave
Hogan still leaves to make movies
Savage stays around
Flair still returns to WCW

Stars: Diesil, Razor, Shawn, Bret, Savage, Taker, Yokozuna, Backlund

Attitude Era (Beginning):
Shawn still leaves with a back injury
Austin and Rock are rising stars
Bret never leaves for WCW

Stars: Austin, Rock, Taker, Kane, Mankind, Diesil, Razor, Bret, Triple H

End of The Attitude Era/Post Attiude Era:
Jericho jumps to WWF
Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero stay in WCW/ECW
Kurt Angle is a rising star

Stars: Austin, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Kane, Mankind, Diesil, Razor, Savage

Who is effected most?
What does the title picture look like in each era?
What feuds happen/dont happen?

 

[lifelongfan]

thats a tough one. first i bet deasil wins a bunch of wwe titles. dont no if mankid or Y2J makes it due to so many outher stars. maby the rock and stone cold never comes to b. maby sting goes to wwe because it only bigtime company around. macho man prob, gets the respect he derseves after he retires. but it really hard to say

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The MNW's were not the turning point, there were several key decisions made by both parties and talents between 1990 and 1995 that shaped how things went down. The decision to go with Nitro didn't come until 95 - nearly 5 years since some of those crucial decisions happened. To start I'll run them down...

1: 1990 - Rick Rude leaves the WWF as Sgt. Slaughter gets "his" spot. Make no mistake, this was a major turning point. Many saw Rude as being the perfect title opponent for Warrior and the guy to dethrone him and to be that heel champion Hogan and Warrior could eventually beat. The chemistry was there with Heenan and Perfect who would have been his running mate. Rude got the Summerslam match but it was clear that Hellwig and Hogan both felt he was "beneath them" in terms of signs and weren't happy to work programmes with him other than them going over with both guys preferring to work with Sgt. Slaughter. Rude was furious and left, ironically doing his best work with WCW from 1991 till his enforced retirement. He was at that point the best heel in the biz, and Vince let him walk to massage Hogan and Warrior's egos.

Why was it important? By 93, WWE was in serious trouble trying to blood new stars, Bret Hart had been fed to Yoko who in turn was fed to Hogan... The "big man" curse continued when Diesel was given the title ahead of the far more deserving Bret and Randy Savage. Had Rude been in the WWF the complexion of those intervening years would have been far different with Rude as champ helping to build stars like Bret and Davey Boy - as he did with Sting, Dustin Rhodes and others in WCW. He also could have worked with veterans like Savage and Steamboat. Those mediocre main events of 1993 and 94 may not have been as mediocre and WCW while they may still have made big signings, they would not have had as much young, face talent available as Rude wouldn't have been there to build them up.

2: 1991-1992 - The Ric Flair Debacles - Jim Herd was the guy in charge of day to day in WCW but was also known as "The Pizza Guy" as that was his main business prior, he knew literally nothing of wrestling. He made several wacky decisions, notably the Ding Dongs but when he started messing with Ric Flair, trying to call him Spartacus and low ball him, he started a chain of events that irrevocably changed the business. It was the first time a current champion was openly negotiating with the competition, that Herd let Flair go was crazy, but that he was prepared to allow Flair to carry the NWA title belt onto WWF TV for the sake of a few thousand dollars is simple insanity. Flair took the title onto TV and the stage was set for an amazing turn of events and electric WWF angles...

Except Vince didn't seem to know what to do with Flair any more than Herd did... You have a hot new star, a dream match and your competitions title... so what do you do for a debut match? Team him with The Warlord at Survivor Series? Really?

The idea of Piper as his first feud had merit, as they had great history and chemistry but if you're gonna do it for Flair's first match then do it as just them... but Ricky Steamboat was also on the roster being set up to be on a team with Jim Neidhart and losing to Skinner on house shows... It was insanity when you knew the chemistry Flair had with them to not use it, even if Steamboat was gonna be on the outs.


Sure guys like Ted DiBiase, Bret Hart, Jacques Rougeau and Davey Boy all were involved and 4 of the 8 men held the IC title within 9 months... but that was not the place for Flair's debut... a singles match was then having him in the botched title situations killed his moentum. Some say their house show matches were not great but I think that Vince had killed Flair off with that first night proper in the WWF, Hogan wasn't convinced about putting him over and it took something special (his Rumble win) booking wise to pull him out of the fire... but again it was botched immediately, Gene Okerlund was more concerned about someone smoking than Flair's achievement and soon the dream match at Mania was nixed... that whole chain of events destabilised Flair and made his signing redundant, that he was gone one year later was a major factor as it showed WCW top stars that while Hogan was around you were not gonna get a fair shake. How Flair was treated more than anything probably is the reason Sting never went there.

1992 - Vince fires Davey Boy - This was pretty important but often gets missed, many claim that Davey was roided and an addict he may well have been - but this was a man who had just months earlier headlined the 2nd or joint best match to that point, in the 2nd biggest attended show ever. WCW grabbed Davey and propelled him into their main event. He was the first guy to come into WCW with a major push, no mystery like Rude - we knew who he was and why he was there. When he slammed Vader on the outside so hard he couldn't get up people believed he was the new guy... but as 93 drew out it was clear that Hogan was gonna be available soon. Davey again found himself unemployed and then headed back to Vince... I'm not saying Davey was the future of the business but had Vince actually backed him to a title run before Bret, even if it was just so he could drop it to Bret, Yoko or even Hogan at Mania 9 then the UK surge would have continued past 92 and that could have seen new opportunities, the WWF would have been truly global earlier for one.

3) Mania 9. This is the original screwjob, in that the 3 talents "chosen" to lead the new generation all seemingly got screwed by Hogan in one night. Bret was suddenly the forgotten man, Yoko had to endure losing the title moments after winning it and Undertaker was stuck in a horrid match with Giant Gonzales. This show more than anything, and in particular it's ending set up the problems that nearly killed the WWF. Rather than let the new stars tale centre stage or using older talent like Hogan, Savage and Beefcake to put them over - we had Hogan winning 2 matches, Beefcake stinking up the joint and a mediocre Perfect/Luger match. Bret's aborted run cost them a year of him bedding in... not using Savage to face Luger rather than a hobbled Curt Hennig cost them a heel Luger being credible and not letting Tatanka go over Shawn was perhaps the worst part. Allegedly Shawn politicked to keep the title, knowing he was gonna be working with Nash going forward and as Tatanka had a "bad attitude" had Chris Chavis won that title we could have again seen a much different 1993-1995 in the mid card and ultimately another option for the main event but Shawn, Hogan - guess this shit started early.

4: 1993 - The Steiners suspension/leaving the WWF. In one of the last matches in WCW that he had, Scott Steiner had had a barnstormer with Ricky Steamboat for the TV title. It was probably that match that convinced Vince to sign the team, with a view to Scott becoming a singles star. There are conflicting rumors as to why the team were suspended and dropped the tag titles 20 years ago but first and foremost was that Scott had flipped out when told he was to turn on Rick and feud. The Steiners didn't feel their deals were consumate with them destroying their team and they left on the basis they could make more keeping the team going. Scott eventually got to the main event but him leaving the WWF changed the landscape. Had he stayed and played ball, he is probably champion in 95-96, feuding with Bret, Shawn, Owen and Davey Boy.

5: 1994-1995 - WCW's talent raids and releases. The writing was on the wall for most of WCW's young talent when Steve Austin was injured when as he said at the time "slipped" on Duggan. Bischoff had gone on an aggressive recruitment campaign of anyone remotely linked to WWF and it led to debacles such as Shark, Paul Roma as a Horseman and The Guardian Angel. Meanwhile the talents who would eventually save the WWF were languishing or struggling to get past all of Hogan's buddies. Austin, Triple H, Pillman, Dustin Rhodes and Cactus Jack were all victims of this and left, mainly for ECW first but all of them with the exception of Pillman had stellar if not legendary WWF careers thereafter. Pillman would have been King Of The Ring 1996 had he not crashed his jeep 3 days after signing... now imagine Attitude/Austin 3:16 but a fully fit Pillman winning instead and feuding with Bret and Owen in that timeframe. How good would it have been?


Of course there are millions of decisions that affected it. You can't just pick out Nitro as being the defining moment as I've shown, things led to Bischoff getting more and more confident/cocky and the WWF getting weaker and weaker over those 5 previous years... Vince's decisions cost them several guys who were legit main eventers already like Steamboat, Rude and Flair and who could have been for him earlier like Tatanka, Scott Steiner and Davey Boy... That Luger was allowed to just walk out on TV that first Nitro or that WCW lost so many young talents who are now in the WWF HOF or destined to be proved lessons were not learned on either side only Vince eventually, with blind luck got away with it...WCW didn't...

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

I don't want to take anything away from the resurgence of Hulk Hogan and the departure of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash from the WWF and their subsequent returns to WCW to form the nWo. However, I still feel that at some point the Attitude Era would have happened. I don't want to undermine WCW and not give them credit for their being a big motivator in Vince choosing to do the Attitude Era, but at the same time, I still feel Vince would have done something to change the face of his company once again. Without a competitor like WCW, would it have worked the same? Who knows? But I do think renewed success would still have occurred for the company in the later 90s.

But anyhow, I just have to laugh at this idea from a fellow poster by quoting him below:

3) Mania 9. This is the original screwjob, in that the 3 talents "chosen" to lead the new generation all seemingly got screwed by Hogan in one night.

Haha, screwed? I love this anti-Hogan vitriol from you, it never ceases to make me laugh and cackle like a raving hyena. Just because, I can do nothing but be amused by such armchair expert nonsense. The only reason you're stating any of this rhetoric is because you have hindsight internet speculation to base your arguments on. Totally ridiculous. Hogan screwed three talents at Mania, all too funny. Especially considering that Hogan was on his way out of the promotion, and that there's no possible way that none of this was Vince's idea to use Hogan the way he did, right?

Bret was suddenly the forgotten man...

The same forgotten man who won King Of The Ring only months later, and then got his redemption against Yokozuna the following year at the next Mania. Keep in mind he also cultivated a GREAT feud with his brother, Owen in between all that. But I guess that was only coincidental, right?

Yoko had to endure losing the title moments after winning it and Undertaker was stuck in a horrid match with Giant Gonzales.

The same Yokozuna that controversially lost the title at WrestleMania IX and in a rematch soundly beat Hogan, yes there was outside interference, but Yokozuna also used that to beat Bret Hart the first time. But again, heels NEVER win by dubious means right? I guess Hogan losing to a fresh Yokozuna in a rematch doesn't cut the mustard for you. Pardoning my sarcasm for a moment, say all you want about Hogan's ego, but him losing the title to Yokozuna in a full-fledged rematch actually made Yokozuna look VERY good, considering that Hogan ending up showing that he couldn't beat Yokozuna convincingly. And a year later, Bret Hart showed he actually could beat Yokozuna by using his ring wiles and smarts. Again, like I mentioned...he redeemed himself. It was a great wrestling storyline and it's an example of how storytelling just isn't the same right now in the business.

As far as Undertaker goes, that's rich, he did have a shitty match with Giant Gonzales, something that never should have been featured at WrestleMania. But I can't see how this had a damned thing to do with Hogan, now I can just see you're unabashedly and ignorantly blaming Hogan for every ill the WWF was going through. Give it a damn rest. Do I think he would have been better suited to go up against someone like Razor Ramon? Yes. But that's just the way things worked out.

Same thing about your comments with Shawn Michaels, it's funny how you mentioned Shawn allegedly politicked, but you're making it sound like Hogan undeniably politiciked. I mean it's possible both pulled their weight with Vince, but just the same it's Vince's show and I'd assume he'd have the final say. Considering that the WWF was devoid of Hogan for several months, and the WrestleMania hype started before Hogan even returned from hiatus, I'm doubting Hogan had that much pull towards the end of his stint, especially considering the direction things were going in. Again, if it was truly a case of Hogan's ego, my theory is that he wouldn't have beaten a vulnerable Yokozuna, and in fact Hogan would have somehow found his way right back into a marquee title match instead of the program with Brutus Beefcake going up against Money, Inc. Remember, it was only a year earlier that the WWF changed their already advertised main event from Hogan vs Ric Flair to Randy Savage vs Ric Flair.

There was already a precedent for things to get changed even after advertised.

My opinion is that your Hogan criticisms sound stupid and groundless, and you're desperate to find ANYTHING to connect Hogan with in regards to booking decisions. I think what happened on screen is more important and more indicative of what the "true story" of the WWF's direction than nonsense tertiary information from the "backstage" that's over 20 years old.

In other words, get off your high horse.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I don't want to take anything away from the resurgence of Hulk Hogan and the departure of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash from the WWF and their subsequent returns to WCW to form the nWo. However, I still feel that at some point the Attitude Era would have happened. I don't want to undermine WCW and not give them credit for their being a big motivator in Vince choosing to do the Attitude Era, but at the same time, I still feel Vince would have done something to change the face of his company once again. Without a competitor like WCW, would it have worked the same? Who knows? But I do think renewed success would still have occurred for the company in the later 90s.

But anyhow, I just have to laugh at this idea from a fellow poster by quoting him below:



Haha, screwed? I love this anti-Hogan vitriol from you, it never ceases to make me laugh and cackle like a raving hyena. Just because, I can do nothing but be amused by such armchair expert nonsense. The only reason you're stating any of this rhetoric is because you have hindsight internet speculation to base your arguments on. Totally ridiculous. Hogan screwed three talents at Mania, all too funny. Especially considering that Hogan was on his way out of the promotion, and that there's no possible way that none of this was Vince's idea to use Hogan the way he did, right?



The same forgotten man who won King Of The Ring only months later, and then got his redemption against Yokozuna the following year at the next Mania. Keep in mind he also cultivated a GREAT feud with his brother, Owen in between all that. But I guess that was only coincidental, right?



The same Yokozuna that controversially lost the title at WrestleMania IX and in a rematch soundly beat Hogan, yes there was outside interference, but Yokozuna also used that to beat Bret Hart the first time. But again, heels NEVER win by dubious means right? I guess Hogan losing to a fresh Yokozuna in a rematch doesn't cut the mustard for you. Pardoning my sarcasm for a moment, say all you want about Hogan's ego, but him losing the title to Yokozuna in a full-fledged rematch actually made Yokozuna look VERY good, considering that Hogan ending up showing that he couldn't beat Yokozuna convincingly. And a year later, Bret Hart showed he actually could beat Yokozuna by using his ring wiles and smarts. Again, like I mentioned...he redeemed himself. It was a great wrestling storyline and it's an example of how storytelling just isn't the same right now in the business.

As far as Undertaker goes, that's rich, he did have a shitty match with Giant Gonzales, something that never should have been featured at WrestleMania. But I can't see how this had a damned thing to do with Hogan, now I can just see you're unabashedly and ignorantly blaming Hogan for every ill the WWF was going through. Give it a damn rest. Do I think he would have been better suited to go up against someone like Razor Ramon? Yes. But that's just the way things worked out.

Same thing about your comments with Shawn Michaels, it's funny how you mentioned Shawn allegedly politicked, but you're making it sound like Hogan undeniably politiciked. I mean it's possible both pulled their weight with Vince, but just the same it's Vince's show and I'd assume he'd have the final say. Considering that the WWF was devoid of Hogan for several months, and the WrestleMania hype started before Hogan even returned from hiatus, I'm doubting Hogan had that much pull towards the end of his stint, especially considering the direction things were going in. Again, if it was truly a case of Hogan's ego, my theory is that he wouldn't have beaten a vulnerable Yokozuna, and in fact Hogan would have somehow found his way right back into a marquee title match instead of the program with Brutus Beefcake going up against Money, Inc. Remember, it was only a year earlier that the WWF changed their already advertised main event from Hogan vs Ric Flair to Randy Savage vs Ric Flair.

There was already a precedent for things to get changed even after advertised.

My opinion is that your Hogan criticisms sound stupid and groundless, and you're desperate to find ANYTHING to connect Hogan with in regards to booking decisions. I think what happened on screen is more important and more indicative of what the "true story" of the WWF's direction than nonsense tertiary information from the "backstage" that's over 20 years old.

In other words, get off your high horse.

Where to begin...

First off Hogan was just one of the problems of the era, Warrior was another... not in what they brought in to matches or even their position but the affect they had on other talent. Hogan absolutely politicked, enough people knew it even then (by the way I am much older than you think and was training to wrestle on the UK circuit by then...) My issue was, had you read through, that he had affected the matches 3 years running in his favor, Slaughter over Rude, Sid over Flair and then having to win 2 matches at 9.

There is enough out there and was even then to know that Hogan had forced his way back into that title position, even dropping it, he couldn't do it clean... My hate for Hogan isn't hate... but that his, Warrior and Vince's decisions directly caused the problems they faced later... Hogan shows up at Mania 9 - that's fine but couldn't he have just done the tag match or put Taker or Bret over in some fashion rather than hogging the limelight twice in the night? The end didn't justify the means. Taker could have been anointed by Hogan that night, put over clean or even spared the Gonzalez cluster fuck by Hogan taking that match, which may well have sold better. Taker could have been in the title picture or even Hogan's partner vs Money Inc... WM9's booking severely damaged Taker, that he was then injured and had to take time out missing 10 could have been catastrophic.

Yoko would have been far more solid (no pun) as a champion had he just gone over Bret without Hogan's "rub" or that loss. Bret was adrift despite King Of The Ring, he was fighting Doink and Jerry Lawler by Summerslam... that the Owen stuff happened or they were able to turn it round was more luck than judgement by Vince.

Secondly, I said allegedly with Shawn because it's one story where there isn't a massive amount out there, but some... what is known is that Shawn had nuked Janetty out months earlier by lying and was getting his rep for not dropping titles, rather being suspended or stripped.

This one was on Vince ultimately as he was listening to Michaels a lot and just weeks later he was found to have blatantly lied about Janetty. There is no question he has been influenced by people all along... to say Vince is the dictator is far from the truth, first Hogan, then later Shawn and the Kliq, then Hunter have all been able to influence booking decisions that supposedly are Vince's alone and it has damaged talent and cost them opportunities to build new talent. It's why they are now chronically unable to do it.

In Vince's defence he did in Janetty's case give a "Billy Martin" - restored Janetty to where he would have been had Shawn not lied, the IC champion but the damage was done and Marty never was the same, 3 months on the road as IC champ or 3 months drowning your injustice and sorrows cos you got screwed...which is gonna be better? One way Janetty lives up to potential and has a career, the other? End's up an addict and the unfair punchline of every tag team split...

 

[Matty~!]

In the first post it's also factually incorrect that the NWA and WCW split before 1993 Ric Flair was being billed as NWA World Heavyweight Champion in 1993 when he won that title from Barry Windham at Beach Blast. Despite Vader being billed as WCW Champion at the same time. When WCW and the NWA split in september 1993 the NWA title that Flair had was then billed in WCW as the International Heavyweight title until it was unified in a match between Flair and Sting at a COTC in mid 1994.

As for the answering the post, there are too many if, buts and maybes to even contemplate an answer which at the very least is complex.

 

[FlairFan2003]

It's hard to say what happens without a Monday Night War because Nitro's explosion (remember they beat RAW in the ratings several times in 1996 BEFORE the Now angle ever started) really forced Vince & Company to change tactics and start promoting in completely different way.

Of course people forget that WCW had already brought back Flair (93) and Hogan (94) more than a year before Nitro. Along with Savage and retaining Sting WCW didn't et those guy thanks to Nitro and the added exposure, they actually started Nitro because they felt that foursome of star power was better than anything WWE had at the time. If there was no Monday Night War that might not have stopped WCW from bringing itself back up, that had already happened.

The real question here is with the wrestling audience dwindling, new fans scarce, and older fans still watching more interested in WCW because the older guys they llked in the 80s were there, would WCW have closed the gap enough and/or taken the lead and put enough room between themselves and WWE to force Vince to change his promotional style, aka The Attitude Era (remember, if WCW's more sophisticated, more adult, more violent programming wasn't doing well, albeit thanks in part to Nitro, then there never would have been a need for Vince to change from his Disney like promotional style and dive into the adrenaline fueled Attitude style) ?

Really everything else that happens here depends on Bischoff and WCW.

 

[FlairFan2003]

In the first post it's also factually incorrect that the NWA and WCW split before 1993 Ric Flair was being billed as NWA World Heavyweight Champion in 1993 when he won that title from Barry Windham at Beach Blast. Despite Vader being billed as WCW Champion at the same time. When WCW and the NWA split in september 1993 the NWA title that Flair had was then billed in WCW as the International Heavyweight title until it was unified in a match between Flair and Sting at a COTC in mid 1994.

As for the answering the post, there are too many if, buts and maybes to even contemplate an answer which at the very least is complex.

Technically the remains or remnants of the NWA (there wasn't much as the independents were pretty much dead by 1990) had been largely out of WCW by 1990/91. What was dubbed WCW I believe in Jan 1991 was essentially all that was left viable of the old NWA coalition, it's backbone, it's main part, the wrestlers under contract to Jim Crockett Promotions which produced the TBS and syndicated TV programming in the 1980s. Crockett basically controlled just about wrestler worthwhile within the NWA structure which is what Ted Turner bought in 1988. Under Turner, there was very little need to associate or partner with remaining NWA Board Members from other promotions, they didn't need their talent, and they didn't want them having any say in long term champions or angles. Fact was Crockett really wasn't using them much towards the end either, except pilfering the talent he wanted for his TV shows and tours. The NWA as a combination of independent promoters was basically dead by 1990 and everything casual fans thought of as the NWA thanks to TBS programming was re christened WCW.

There was a move to resurrect the NWA as a viable promotion, using the name and attempting to use the title lineage in 1992/93. WCW did have a working agreement to exchange talent with them in an attempt to liven up their TV programming but it became extremely confusing, TBS showing a WCW champ and an NWA champ, didn't they used to be the same thing ?? By the fall of 1993 the cooperation wasn't working and WCW really wasn't benefitting so they separated (and yes, this was when WCW kept the "Big Gold Belt" that had been brought out of retirement to signify the NWA champ, re christened the WCW International Title, etc. Eventually the International & WCW World Titles were merged when WCW Champ Flair beat International Champ Sting at the June 94 Clash of Champions)

 

[Matty~!]

I agree the NWA was in effect dead well before 1993 but it's factually incorrect to say they had basically been gone for years before hand. In effect the NWA hasn't meant diddly squat in wrestling since 1987, however in that time the name has been bandied around by numerous promoters being greedy and trying to live off the name, the living proof of this the original incarnation of TNA where they brought the rights to the NWA lineage and the NWA board at the time just leached all the money they could get. There's no bigger proof that this with New Japan currently booking the NWA World Title on their shows as a lower mid card title with Rob Conway holding it, when for the vast majority of its history it was the biggest title in Japan overshadowing both All Japan and New Japan's top titles at various points.