WWE throwing money away?

[Gavschenko]

On this forum alot of people say john cena wont be turning heel anytime soon because of the money cena brings in, but why when zach ryder this guy was over i was never a fan myself every piece of merch he had was in the crowd from the big hair spiked to his t-shirts.Every week crowds would get behind this guy the kids loved him and he was over with the hardcore fans he was making the WWE tons of money on merchandise. So why job him out and try ruin his career when hes making you alot of money.

Two other babyfaces alex riley and ryback, now riley didnt have any merchandise by the time he was over his run in 2011 didnt last too long he vanished off tv and become jobber but i have no idea why, the guy was clearly over with the crowd so why throw away money same with ryback he got beat at every ppv and then turned into a coward heel for no reason.

Now im no business expert and obviously vince knows more about business than all of us on the site put together but i dont see how burying these talent is smart for business you all know yourselves these guys were over and made the company money.

The question i am asking on this thread is why did the WWE just decide to cut these guys pushes any thoughts?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Because your perception of merchandise sales is probably not the reality. Zack Ryder got some nice pops and they featured some folks in the audience wearing his stuff but I don't remember seeing much of it. I do remember hearing crickets at a lot of venues when he entered the arena.

Riley got himself in a bit of trouble with the law. I don't think we know all the details but it came at a bad time.

Ryback fell in to a good (but kind of bad) spot as they needed a foe for Punk and he filled that void after Cena got hurt. There was no intention by WWE to take the title off Punk leading in to the Rumble with The Rock. Then Ryback fell in a good (but kind of bad) spot as they needed a fill in to face Cena post WM29. I guess WWE felt Ryback needed to be a heel to sell Cena/Ryback.

I think it's a compliment to Ryback for WWE to use him as a fill in when plans didn't go as expected. He's a relatively new guy. Most new guys have to wait much longer to get the spots he got. It should be interesting to see where he goes. Right now he is just back where he was probably supposed to be had not things happened the way they did.

I don't have all the answers, I'm not Vince nor do I pay much attention to backstage reporting. I just really doubt Vince is throwing money anyway without reason.

 

[MCMG]

You said it yourself. Vince knows everything about this business. That doesn't mean, however, that he can't make mistakes. It is only natural, everyone does.

I really don't think that someone like Alex Riley or Ryback had serious money making potential. If so then Vince would have realised and pushed him. Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Bryan, Punk are all guys who have made money for Vince despite not being "his kind off wrestler".

I'm sure if we look through history there will be superstars that WWE missed out on but I'm sure they get most right. It is a difficult science, not everyone who we think will make money will and there will be guys who shouldn't make money but do.

 

[scomvp316]

I have always said SCSA was the face of the company selected by the fans and not pre-planning for marketing
Cena & Rock are the type of marketable talent Vince has always wanted regardless of what the fans think
Not turning Cena heel has little to do with merch I think Vince doesn't want to bow down to the hardcore fan and Cena worries more about his image outside of wrestling and has probably stated to VKM he will never be heel for biz opportunities outside of wrestling
Too many people put Vince on a pedestal when it comes to biz
If he was truly smart as many have stated WCW would of never have kicked his ass for 80+ weeks and would of changed his programming to PG-13 before the whole NWO thing
VKM and WWE fans tell me what ideas VKM has created on his own
He has made a career of copying others
Thats one reason the product suffers now not enough viable competition to copy from
If fans think VKM is creative look at the years of 90-95 and all those characters he created and his success rate was less than 50%

 

[Headman]

Because your perception of merchandise sales is probably not the reality. Zack Ryder got some nice pops and they featured some folks in the audience wearing his stuff but I don't remember seeing much of it. I do remember hearing crickets at a lot of venues when he entered the arena.

Riley got himself in a bit of trouble with the law. I don't think we know all the details but it came at a bad time.

Ryback fell in to a good (but kind of bad) spot as they needed a foe for Punk and he filled that void after Cena got hurt. There was no intention by WWE to take the title off Punk leading in to the Rumble with The Rock. Then Ryback fell in a good (but kind of bad) spot as they needed a fill in to face Cena post WM29. I guess WWE felt Ryback needed to be a heel to sell Cena/Ryback.

I think it's a compliment to Ryback for WWE to use him as a fill in when plans didn't go as expected. He's a relatively new guy. Most new guys have to wait much longer to get the spots he got. It should be interesting to see where he goes. Right now he is just back where he was probably supposed to be had not things happened the way they did.

I don't have all the answers, I'm not Vince nor do I pay much attention to backstage reporting. I just really doubt Vince is throwing money anyway without reason.

I was about to start a lengthy response to the OP but everything I was about to say has pretty much been said here in the quoted post. The WWE worked you into thinking Zack Ryder was over. When the man failed to live up to the hype they ended his push. I still chuckle when I think about Ryder's fans. The guy gets over on the internet with his comedic promos and then get angry when he's used as comic relief. Did they expect the self proclaimed internet champion to all of a sudden turn into Triple H? "Cena buried him!" is something I hear a lot. No, Cena gave him his 15 minutes of fame which were 15 more minutes than he would have had without Cena.

 

[lazeric]

The reason we haven't seen a heel run by the current incantation of John Cena( remember the Dr of Thuganomatics was a heel for a while) is because there is no other viable face to oppose him. The clear cut number 2 in the company is Punk and he's so much more valuable as a heel and Bryan is the only other high profile face but while he is over he's not ready to be the guy who faces a heel Cena. Let's be honest here, while Cena is critiqued heavily for his wrestling skills him turning heel would the single most important moment in wrestling in the last decade and if u hate face Cena squashing everybody imagine heel Cena with no one to stop him.

 

[sdelfin]

It was reported that Ryder's merchandise was selling rather well. It looked that way too as I saw plenty or merchandise in the crowd. But we don't really know for sure without numbers. They certainly did what they could to downplay Ryder, such as completely ignore that he had far more twitter followers than the Miz, who was featured on a list of superstars with the most followers. And there's no doubt in my mind that they intentionally buried Ryder, as the whole thing with him, Kane, Cena and Eve was way beyond just de-pushing him. Who knows what goes on behind the scenes. He might have done something he shouldn't have, or maybe he wasn't proactive or assertive enough(such as refusing to do the angle with Eve). All that aside, assuming his merchandise was selling pretty well, perhaps they didn't see him as a long-term draw. And burying him on television is a great way to prove that correct and perhaps make an example of him.

 

[cm ben]

Good thread!

I'm going to agree with George Steele's Barber on his points with Alex Riley and Ryback: backstage/off-screen issues, and right place/right time situation, respectively.

But the Ryder thing really is kind of puzzling. Maybe his merch wasn't selling as much as the OP thought, and maybe he wasn't completely over... but his merch was definitely selling at least DECENTLY, and he was at least SORT OF over. Which doesn't explain why they built him up only to have him lose the US Title after a month, and get pushed off the stage by Kane, and finally disappear from TV for a year and counting.

It truly doesn't seem like a good financial decision--milk the midcard for whatever money you can! It must be weird backstage politics that we'll only hear murmurs of. I only wonder why they wouldn't just fire him at some point, though. If they're not going to attempt to make money off the guy, why are they still giving him money just to feature his profile on wwe.com?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think several posters have already said all there is to say really. Vince McMahon makes mistakes like everyone else does in life. As knowledgeable as he is about the business of wrestling, the law of averages would suggest that he does sometimes miss out on money opportunities. A guess on my part would be that there are some guys that Vince, and maybe a lot of other people for that matter, simply doesn't see money in. If Vince was able to make precisely the right choices with precisely the right wrestlers at precisely the right times, then WWE would be able to roll out Hulk Hogan level stars whenever it chose to.

In the case of Zack Ryder, he was someone who simply wasn't as over, not by a long shot, as some want to claim he was. People did seem to get behind him for a short time but Ryder's steam began to run out almost immediately after he won the United States Championship. I think fans did like Ryder to some degree, but not anywhere close to the level that would warrant for him to have any sort of main event run. Ryder's easy going, laid back, semi-Jersey Shore themed club kid was seen as fun but relatively harmless. Generally speaking, considering that character, Ryder's level is similar to that of Santino Marella in the grand scheme of things. Like Santino, I think Ryder is someone that MIGHT have what it takes to go further, but he certainly didn't have with what ultimately amounted to a comedy babyface that hardly anyone would take seriously as a main eventer. Ryder was given a solid chance but it just didn't work. Could he do it as a different character? Possibly. Then again, possibly not. That's sort of an intangible question that can't really be answered as we're not psychic, nor is Vince, but I'm sure it's a question he asks himself when considering the pros & cons of giving a wrestler on the roster a push.

As far as Alex Riley goes, Riley got himself into a spot of trouble with the law a while back. I'm not sure about all the details, but I'm pretty sure he was arrested for DUI. I'm not completely certain, but I think that's what happened. Riley was pretty solid in my opinion but when I look at a lot of the guys who are in the midst of a push in WWE or have been in the midst of one through much of this year, Riley just isn't on the level of most of them in my eyes. At 32 years of age, Riley is still a young man but I don't think he's going to have much of a career in WWE as a wrestler. Riley has been a commentator for NXT and was commentator on SmackDown! this past Friday, where he did a good job in my estimation.

As far as Ryback goes, I'm sure that there'll be some armchair bookers & self appointed wrestling historians who will claim that WWE missed a major opportunity. Maybe WWE did but, personally, I'm not so sure. A good number of people felt that Ryback should have taken the WWE Championship from CM Punk even though he hadn't really been tested. Punk's feud with Ryback did a lot for Ryback's career and took him from being a clone of Goldberg that got a lukewarm reception from fans and really elevated him to a top level babyface for a short time. Unlike Ryback, Punk was someone who'd proven himself in the eyes of WWE fans and WWE management as a long term star. Besides, if Ryback had won the title and had ultimately faltered as we've sort of seen happen with him; then there'd be FAR more criticism heaped onto WWE for putting him into a spot that he either wasn't ready for or doesn't have the ability for such a spot in the first place. Just slapping a championship onto someone and pushing them hard doesn't automatically mean that they've "made it" to the top of the mountain or that they should really even be there in the first place. Besides, Ryback has only been around for a little more than a year and he's only 31 years of age, so just because he hasn't "made it" as quickly as some think he should have or feel that he could have doesn't mean he won't at some point.

 

[OutsiderDX]

There is some basic math that goes along.

Face Cena sells 10 units of merch
Non-Top face sells 2 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

Heel Cena sells 5 units of merch
Top face sells 7 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

But now you have a better show with a fresh dynamic.

What if you raised two different top faces?

Heel Cena = 5 units
Top Face #1 = 5 units
Top Face #2 = 5 units
Total merch = 15 units

Turn Cena face after a few years

Cena Merch now = 12 units

Don't get me started on revenue created from putting on a higher quality product.

If you are losing 5 thousand people at $20 bucks a night for 7 years, because the fans are so disenchanted with the John Cena era, how does him selling 2 or 3 times as many T-shirts make up for that?

You can never ever sacrifice story for money. You have to do what is best for the product and trust that the money will come by putting on the best show possible.

 

[Headman]

There is some basic math that goes along.

Face Cena sells 10 units of merch
Non-Top face sells 2 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

Heel Cena sells 5 units of merch
Top face sells 7 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

But now you have a better show with a fresh dynamic.

What if you raised two different top faces?

Heel Cena = 5 units
Top Face #1 = 5 units
Top Face #2 = 5 units
Total merch = 15 units

Turn Cena face after a few years

Cena Merch now = 12 units

Don't get me started on revenue created from putting on a higher quality product.

If you are losing 5 thousand people at $20 bucks a night for 7 years, because the fans are so disenchanted with the John Cena era, how does him selling 2 or 3 times as many T-shirts make up for that?

You can never ever sacrifice story for money. You have to do what is best for the product and trust that the money will come by putting on the best show possible.

I'm confused. How did the guy selling 2 units jump to 7 units just because Cena turns heel? How does Cena being heel automatically make anyone more popular? I guess anything can be proven from numbers you randomly make up off the top of your head.

 

[D-Will]

I'd imagine the poster was referring to the "kid/female" Cena fan swapping their attention to the promoted face. That's what I gathered when I read it.

 

[shalliin]

There is some basic math that goes along.

Face Cena sells 10 units of merch
Non-Top face sells 2 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

Heel Cena sells 5 units of merch
Top face sells 7 units of merch
Total Merch = 12

But now you have a better show with a fresh dynamic.

What if you raised two different top faces?

Heel Cena = 5 units
Top Face #1 = 5 units
Top Face #2 = 5 units
Total merch = 15 units

Turn Cena face after a few years

Cena Merch now = 12 units

Don't get me started on revenue created from putting on a higher quality product.

If you are losing 5 thousand people at $20 bucks a night for 7 years, because the fans are so disenchanted with the John Cena era, how does him selling 2 or 3 times as many T-shirts make up for that?

You can never ever sacrifice story for money. You have to do what is best for the product and trust that the money will come by putting on the best show possible.

Let's take your numbers:
Cena sales avg at show 300 shirts at 25$. 300*25 =7500$
hats 20$ each sold 250 =5000$
misc at avg 15$ for 175=2650$
7500+5000+2650=15150$ per show
and those are lowball estimates of prices and amounts for what he could sell in a crowd of 7-8thousand people. double it for live raw or smackdowns he's been announced to appear and easily quadruple for ppvs. Then there's appearances, sponsorships, endorsments and other money that he brings in as the face of the company and it easily surpases the exagerated amount you claim of 5000 people a night not going in protest of his being the top guy. At least one too many 0's. so lets work with a more realistiic number
500*20=10000$ so making 15150 and taking out the 10000 you claim he lost in ticket sales, still leaves a profit of 5150 each show.
And that's just comparing his merch sales to the lost ticket sales, let's look at how many people go to see him, either to cheear of boo because though they won't admit it, haters buy just as many tickets to see him as fans, only they want to see him torn down and broken instead of boosted
So avg show has total 8000 tickets, at least 1/4 are there to root for cena, similar number claiming to root for assorted others but really there to boo and hate on cena, that's 1/2 the crowd or 4000 tickets. at 20$ each that is 4000*20=80000
so he brings in 95150 total in merch and tickets, an unknown amount in endorsment and sponsorship(including commercials based on ratings and ppv sales), personal appearance fees and so on. He's still a net gain as a face.
As a heel he loses most of his merch sales and kids likely not to want to see him, so ticket sales go down, and since the 5000 you claim don't return to buy his merch or tickets to see him as a heel, it's a loss either way. this leads to lower ratings and ppv buys, less money from sponsors and add revenue.
so going back to the 5000, this becomes 5000*20=100000. But taking out the losses in other revenues and tickect sales, it still works out best for them to have cena as a face.

 

[Mustang Sally]

....he was making the WWE tons of money on merchandise. So why job him out and try ruin his career when hes making you alot of money.

Sure, Vince McMahon makes mistakes, yet if a guy gets a push and starts selling an ungodly amount of merchandise for the company, I would think Vince knows to ride the wave.

Further, I think he's got a handle on how far to ride it. If I were to guess, I would think he foresaw Zack Ryder as a temporary phenomenon; someone he didn't really want to push because the guy went outside the company to further his career. Vince might have been angry at that, yet he was too good a businessman to not take advantage of it. I believe Vince figured Zack's appeal would have a limited shelf life, so he saw it best to sustain the push only as long as the Zack t-shirts kept rushing out the door....and when sales started to abate, so did Zack's push.

Some members of this forum have speculated that TNA must be raking in tons of money, because they see merchandise being worn by many in the crowd on the Thursday night TV show. Well, it's a pretty small audience of rabid fans and while it looks as if a ton of goodies are being sold, it's only a small fraction of the population and can't be applied to the whole country. After all, ECW had the same type of small arenas, crammed full of maniac fans.....many wearing t-shirts.....and all that didn't translate to financial success for the company, did it?

But yes, if Vince sees a performer carving out a rep for himself and the sales of merchandise for the guy/gal is sustained over a long period of time, you'd better believe he's going to be pushed to the moon.

 

[Suikervrij]

WWE gets most of it's funds from commercials and stuff. Sure, the sells of Cena shirts and whatnot are helping, but they are not a major income.

Plus, guys who are not getting over or are getting dulls in the eyes of creative are either being repackaged or being let go mostly. For every Zach Ryder there are hundreds other stars in WWE who are potentially a lot bigger. Why waste time and effort on a decent selling midcarder if you can push a young and upcoming potential top class superstar?